Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Eeyore]

And, of course, no one in the thread disagrees with that. There might be occasional disputes about whether this or that was a hand ball and should haver been a penalty or whether this or that was a genuine foul or a dive. But on the whole everyone in the thread thinks that refereeing standards are poor and that VAR has probably made them worse. (I would add that VAR and - obviously - multi-positioned high-speed cameras around the pitch, have also educated us, the fans, who are able to spot more 'batshit' decisions than before.)

Where we differ and sometimes fall apart are over why terrible decisions are being made and whether we, as a club, suffer more than others and have systematically suffered more than others over the years.

A week or so ago you were regaling us with tales of how bad referees used to be and how much better the current crop are.

[Yorkykopite]

A week or so ago you were regaling us with tales of how bad referees used to be and how much better the current crop are.

Again, where's the contradiction?

Unless you are referring to the clause "and VAR has made them worse"? I mean of course "relatively worse". In other words VAR has given them more opportunities to show their ineptitude and given us - the supporters - more opportunities to see their failings. It has exposed them like never before.

But, sure, even Taylor is a better referee than Roger Kirkpatrick or the Geordie copper were.

[Yorkykopite]

I don’t think it’s even debatable whether we suffer more at the hands of the corrupt officials than other clubs is it?

I feel you should take that question to a Nottingham Forest website or a Wolves one. Not that they're any more objective than we are of course.

[JRed]

I feel you should take that question to a Nottingham Forest website or a Wolves one. Not that they're any more objective than we are of course.

Why? How many titles have they been denied by clearly bollox refereeing decisions?

[Eeyore]

I feel you should take that question to a Nottingham Forest website or a Wolves one. Not that they're any more objective than we are of course.

Would that be the Forest and Wolves that have been outspoken against the PGMOL. There seems to be a pattern there Yorky.

What amazes me is how teams that complain get fucked over without referees being biased?

I mean we complained about Tierney and he got a record number of Liverpool games. Was that bias or did the PGMOL employ retribution fairies?

Remarkably Tierney gave a decision in our favour a drop ball and it appears he has been kidnapped and is in Webb's basement. Forest complain about Atwell being a Luton fan and the next game Luton get a Notts County fan in Coote as referee. Not content with that Forest get Hooper who failed to send off Madison for punching a Forest player.

[Yorkykopite]

Why? How many titles have they been denied by clearly bollox refereeing decisions?

Zero. But that's not the point you made. Forest fans, no doubt, will argue that their punishment is actually worse than ours. Being relegated. But, like I say, you'll get more profit from discussing your thesis with Forest fans themselves. Or Wolves fans. Or indeed Arsenal fans if their team misses out on the Title.

If you do go ahead I'd love you to report back to us on what they all say.

[JRed]

Zero. But that's not the point you made. Forest fans, no doubt, will argue that their punishment is actually worse than ours. Being relegated. But, like I say, you'll get more profit from discussing your thesis with Forest fans themselves. Or Wolves fans. Or indeed Arsenal fans if their team misses out on the Title.

If you do go ahead I'd love you to report back to us on what they all say.

Which decision directly relegated Forest?
The Rodri handball or lack of Kompany red card cost us a title.
The totally inexplicable decisions this season have directly cost us a title.

[Eeyore]

Zero. But that's not the point you made. Forest fans, no doubt, will argue that their punishment is actually worse than ours. Being relegated. But, like I say, you'll get more profit from discussing your thesis with Forest fans themselves. Or Wolves fans. Or indeed Arsenal fans if their team misses out on the Title.

If you do go ahead I'd love you to report back to us on what they all say.

I have been on all of those forums.

I asked for examples of the ball going in off a beach ball. One of their players being assaulted by a match official. A goal being ruled out because the VAR forgot what he was looking for. A kung fu kick in the penalty area going unpunished and an incidence of a referee stopping the game, asking for the physios and telling an uninjured player to go down.

Remarkably I haven't heard anything back yet.

[rob1966]

Zero. But that's not the point you made. Forest fans, no doubt, will argue that their punishment is actually worse than ours. Being relegated. But, like I say, you'll get more profit from discussing your thesis with Forest fans themselves. Or Wolves fans. Or indeed Arsenal fans if their team misses out on the Title.

If you do go ahead I'd love you to report back to us on what they all say.

As an outsider looking in, its blatantly obvious that Wolves are being deliberately fucked over by the referees, the stuff they have had to deal with, that I have seen, has been shocking, starting with Onana absolutely flattening a Wolves player and the ref saying we don't give those.

[Eeyore]

As an outsider looking in, its blatantly obvious that Wolves are being deliberately fucked over by the referees, the stuff they have had to deal with, that I have seen, has been shocking, starting with Onana absolutely flattening a Wolves player and the ref saying we don't give those.

The Premier League has a Key match incidents panel that looks at decisions.

"ESPN can reveal that Premier League leaders Liverpool have been most affected in the 2023-24 campaign, with four VAR errors against them. Brighton & Hove Albion and Wolverhampton Wanderers have each suffered three mistakes, with Arsenal two and eight other clubs on one each."

I am sure Yorky incompetence™ will say it is just a remarkable coincidence that those four clubs are managed by Klopp, De Zerbi, O'Neil and Arteta. Four managers who have had feuds with the PGMOL.

[Yorkykopite]

The Premier League has a Key match incidents panel that looks at decisions.

"ESPN can reveal that Premier League leaders Liverpool have been most affected in the 2023-24 campaign, with four VAR errors against them. Brighton & Hove Albion and Wolverhampton Wanderers have each suffered three mistakes, with Arsenal two and eight other clubs on one each."

I am sure Yorky incompetence™ will say it is just a remarkable coincidence that those four clubs are managed by Klopp, De Zerbi, O'Neil and Arteta. Four managers who have had feuds with the PGMOL.

I must say Eeyore I'd admire you even more than I do now if you gave RAWK a holiday, stopped visiting all these other football fan forums, and dedicated yourself to the task of getting your theory out in the wide world. Get it published!

If I were as absolutely convinced as you are that there was a massive and systematic conspiracy against Liverpool (and any other club whose manager complains about referring standards), and I honestly thought I had the evidence to back it up, I'd write up my results and send the article or the book to a magazine or book publisher.

If I can anticipate you for a moment, there's no point saying that no publisher or newspaper would carry such a report. Of course they would, if it was convincing. You might even get a substantial wedge of green coming your way, not to mention numerous invites to appear on radio, podcasts, and even TV. We're talking about something which affects millions of people after all, and which involves billions of pounds. And everyone in the publishing trade loves a controversy.

So stop wasting your time on here and turn your face to the world. You have the facts, you have the theories, and you certainly have the evangelical spirt. Do something!

[Eeyore]

I must say Eeyore I'd admire you even more than I do now if you gave RAWK a holiday, stopped visiting all these other football fan forums, and dedicated yourself to the task of getting your theory out in the wide world. Get it published!

If I were as absolutely convinced as you are that there was a massive and systematic conspiracy against Liverpool (and any other club whose manager complains about referring standards), and I honestly thought I had the evidence to back it up, I'd write up my results and send the article or the book to a magazine or book publisher.

If I can anticipate you for a moment, there's no point saying that no publisher or newspaper would carry such a report. Of course they would, if it was convincing. You might even get a substantial wedge of green coming your way, not to mention numerous invites to appear on radio, podcasts, and even TV. We're talking about something which affects millions of people after all, and which involves billions of pounds. And everyone in the publishing trade loves a controversy.

So stop wasting your time on here and turn your face to the world. You have the facts, you have the theories, and you certainly have the evangelical spirt. Do something!

Boom the Yorky trademark exaggerated Strawman.

Except I am not arguing that and never have. Time and time again I have said that I believe two things.

1. That individual referees are human and have conscious and subconscious biases that play out in their officiating of Football. Furthermore for a number of reasons. Such as the predominance of Manchester officials. The predominance of ex Police officers running the PGMOL. The politics of the City and being anti-monarchy, anti-establishment and the anthesis of the people in charge of the PGMOL. Then we have far more reasons for an official to be biased against us.

2. That the PGMOL is a backwards, dreadfully run and corrupt organisation. An organisation that closes ranks and backs each other to the hilt. An organisation whose natural reaction is to react against criticism by doubling down on those who criticise them. An organisation that likes to show how strong it is by looking to punish those who criticise it. A thoroughly corrupt vindictive shit show of an organisation.

Unfortunately, you quite simply refuse to argue against those two points. Instead you either cherry-pick one line of a post or create bizarre over exaggerated strawmen.

Instead of doing that please explain what is wrong with points 1 and 2.

[rob1966]

Boom the Yorky trademark exaggerated Strawman.

Except I am not arguing that and never have. Time and time again I have said that I believe two things.

1. That individual referees are human and have conscious and subconscious biases that play out in their officiating of Football. Furthermore for a number of reasons. Such as the predominance of Manchester officials. The predominance of ex Police officers running the PGMOL. The politics of the City and being anti-monarchy, anti-establishment and the anthesis of the people in charge of the PGMOL. Then we have far more reasons for an official to be biased against us.

2. That the PGMOL is a backwards, dreadfully run and corrupt organisation. An organisation that closes ranks and backs each other to the hilt. An organisation whose natural reaction is to react against criticism by doubling down on those who criticise them. An organisation that likes to show how strong it is by looking to punish those who criticise it. A thoroughly corrupt vindictive shit show of an organisation.

Unfortunately, you quite simply refuse to argue against those two points. Instead you either cherry-pick one line of a post or create bizarre over exaggerated strawmen.

Instead of doing that please explain what is wrong with points 1 and 2.

Both points pretty much nail it on. The corruption Taylor commited on Saturday and I'm not talking blowing the whistle, I'm talking about telling Areola to fake an injury and forcing him to go to the floor would not be accepted in any other company. PGMOL will do fuck all about it as per usual.

[Eeyore]

Both points pretty much nail it on. The corruption Taylor commited on Saturday and I'm not talking blowing the whistle, I'm talking about telling Areola to fake an injury and forcing him to go to the floor would not be accepted in any other company. PGMOL will do fuck all about it as per usual.

I think an apt comparison would be a jockey in a horse race. Because there is so much money wagered on racing then if a jockey is deemed not to have tried and that affects the outcome of a race they are banned.

Imagine how much would have been wagered on Liverpool on Saturday. Imagine how many accas they would have been in. Taylor directly impacts the result of that game and there is not a peep.

The silence from the Premier League and the PGMOL regarding Taylor blatantly cheating on Saturday is breathtaking. As you say doing that in any other job would mean real consequences.

[Yorkykopite]

Boom the Yorky trademark exaggerated Strawman. 

I obviously don't believe it is a straw man. You consistently describe a conspiracy on this thread.

But just for the sake of argument I will grant that you don't believe there is a conspiracy. Nevertheless the direct consequences of the "bias" you detect, which is really systematic bias against Liverpool, are still huge. A large number of referees make biased decisions, week-in, week-out against Liverpool, and are not only protected by their masters at PGMOL but actually encouraged and rewarded when they do (unintentionally or not) damage Liverpool. Those who are seen to 'favour' Liverpool, are removed. In contrast those who damage our main rivals (Man City) are treated very differently by PGMOL. They are punished not rewarded. Referees are recruited from the Manchester region in preponderant numbers either because of unconscious bias or to keep Liverpool permanently on the back foot. The inevitable result of all this bias - unconscious or not - is that Liverpool are deprived of a chance to win the Premier League.

This is still a huge story, regardless of whether you use the word 'conspiracy' or not.

So I ask you again. Instead of complaining on here every day, why not write it up and find a publisher. If your evidence is sound you will get published. It would cause a sensation. And it really ought to be nice little earner for you too. It's a massive story.