Topic: Universal Basic Income

[CraigDS]

But we've had, in the last couple of years in the States, a bit of a preview - billions of Covid relief dollars were dished out to people, and all of a sudden nobody was showing up to work and everything got way more expensive.

That's not a preview though. UBI isn't a simple case of giving everyone X amount of money and that's it (which is what happened in the US). UBI involves a whole load of other fiscal and monetary policies which help control inflation, encourages employment, etc.

Sure, there would likely be an adjustment period where some quit work and live off the UBI, but ultimately it would fine an equilibrium.

[PaulF]

Is there agreement on what universal basic services would provide? I guess, house, domestic fuel and enough to put basic food on the table?

[redbyrdz]

UBI wont work on a funamental level, as it'll just drive up inflation.

That is such an odd argument. Looking at it the other way, to keep inflation down, some people have to be extremely poor?

[Red-Soldier]

Is there agreement on what universal basic services would provide? I guess, house, domestic fuel and enough to put basic food on the table?

Here you go Paul:

The home for all things UBS. This site is dedicated to providing information and resources related to Universal Basic Services.

UBS definition: the provision of sufficient public services, as can be afforded from a reasonable tax on incomes, to enable every citizen's safety, opportunity, and participation.

Basic Services should be universally available to provide shelter, sustenance, health & care, education, local transport, information access, and legal & democracy support, at a level that enables every member of society to maintain their material safety, and embark on efforts to make their personal contribution to the rest of their society. To those objectives we add the vital component of participation, as necessary to the functioning of the democratic political system which forms the bedrock of our society.

https://universalbasicservices.org/


In general, I believe it's a better alternative to UBI.

[west_london_red]

That is such an odd argument. Looking at it the other way, to keep inflation down, some people have to be extremely poor?

People don’t need to be extremely poor for inflation to be low, but you do need people available to work to prevent wage inflation and the worry is that a UBI would dissuade people from working, shrinking the labour supply and causing wage inflation. But critics of the minimum wage said that would cause inflation too when it was introduced and it didn’t.

Personally, I’d just be happy if benefits reflected the actual cost of living such that people didn’t have to make choices between things like heating and eating.

[CraigDS]

People don’t need to be extremely poor for inflation to be low, but you do need people available to work to prevent wage inflation and the worry is that a UBI would dissuade people from working, shrinking the labour supply and causing wage inflation. But critics of the minimum wage said that would cause inflation too when it was introduced and it didn’t.

Personally, I’d just be happy if benefits reflected the actual cost of living such that people didn’t have to make choices between things like heating and eating.

The other argument is that with more people able to spend that the demand for goods would rise and companies could benefit from greater economies of scale so can bring costs down in other areas even if wages do increase.

[Drinks Sangria]

The other argument is that with more people able to spend that the demand for goods would rise and companies could benefit from greater economies of scale so can bring costs down in other areas even if wages do increase.

You'd hope, but that unfortunately is then asking corporations to act responsibly in terms of their control of costs and where they redistribute the money - almost certainly into their own back pockets.

[west_london_red]

The other argument is that with more people able to spend that the demand for goods would rise and companies could benefit from greater economies of scale so can bring costs down in other areas even if wages do increase.

I think the problem with that is that we manufacture so little here that we would see little benefit from economies of scale in this country, in fact we could suck in more imports as people have more to spend, the GBP depreciates and that also causes inflation. There’s probably a shit load of variables that would need to be factored into something as radical as a UBI

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I think the problem with that is that we manufacture so little here that we would see little benefit from economies of scale in this country, in fact we could suck in more imports as people have more to spend, the GBP depreciates and that also causes inflation. There’s probably a shit load of variables that would need to be factored into something as radical as a UBI

I think the problem is that we've been conditioned over centuries to believe that the current capitalist nightmare which is destroying the planet and our mental health is the only way.

[west_london_red]

I think the problem is that we've been conditioned over centuries to believe that the current capitalist nightmare which is destroying the planet and our mental health is the only way.

There’s definitely something in that, but I don’t think it’s just conditioning, looking after number 1, the family, the clan, the tribe over everyone else is how we’ve evolved, it’s in our programming as it is in animals. It’s not an easy thing to overcome.

[CraigDS]

You'd hope, but that unfortunately is then asking corporations to act responsibly in terms of their control of costs and where they redistribute the money - almost certainly into their own back pockets.

Would certainly be some of that, but you’d hope in a competitive market that prices would eventually be forced down.

[CraigDS]

I think the problem with that is that we manufacture so little here that we would see little benefit from economies of scale in this country, in fact we could suck in more imports as people have more to spend, the GBP depreciates and that also causes inflation. There’s probably a shit load of variables that would need to be factored into something as radical as a UBI

There are plenty of savings to be made beyond just manufacturing, even for import businesses.

But yeah, 100% there are so many variables, and wider changes, which would need to be made to make UBI successful on a wide scale.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Not entirely by design,  but for a lot of 'developed'  economies,  there's a lot of room to raise rates against inflation due to cuts / Covid related cuts / opportunities to raise not taken over the years,  especially in the EU.  As good a time to trial UBI / services as any.

[ToneLa]

Happy to see Wales trialling this

[PaulF]

We might go looking for an alternative to capitalism, but would we be eaten alive in a global economy?