Author Topic: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry  (Read 28694 times)

Offline The Albert Cock

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Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« on: June 20, 2005, 12:38:46 pm »
can any more 'mature' fans shed soem light on the history of this?


Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 12:47:08 pm »
Tommy made no secret of his dislike for Yozzer...and said lots of nasty things about his personality ( possibly true)...a lot I think borne out of jealousy...apart from losing the Captaincy  to him..Shanks had been a father figure to Smith and he was jealous of the attention Shanks gave Hughes...I heared more Good than Bad about Yozzer....I think its time the let this story dispear into history

Offline Kitchentable

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2005, 12:47:45 pm »
As with the original root of the Phil Thompson/Graeme Souness issues, it is supposed to have been about the captaincy.  There is also the suggestion that it was the shifting of Shankly's affections from Smith to Hughes.

There was apparently also a politicial ideology aspect to it due to Emlyn not exactly being a red blooded socialist.

In the good old days, of course, clubs, particularly our one, did not air their dirty laundry in public so it might well have been about a car parking space or priority use of a hairdryer for all I know for certain.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2005, 12:50:16 pm »
I think to some extent the Anfield Iron has traded upon this in his latter years on his after-dinner speaking circuit.

Undoubtedly they didn't get on but I'll bet there was an element of it being blown up out of proportion latterly for effect.
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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2005, 01:29:30 pm »
Have read Smithy's autobiography ages ago. One thing that pissed Smithy off was, when the team had the homecoming in '77 after Rome, Hughes got on the mike at St Georges Hall and started singing "Liverpool are magic, Everton are tragic". He reckoned that was bang out of order as a lot of Blues turned up that night.

Offline Big Ig

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2005, 01:41:43 pm »
From what I heard from Smithy on TV during the parade, he seems a bitter and negative bloke, glass half empty, always taking the tabloid view on certain players... One step down from St. John, even... Never heard Yozzer come out with stuff like that.

Offline Shauniboy

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2005, 02:25:42 pm »
Also Tommy Smith wasn't overkeen on Keegan especially when he let it be known he was moving abroad!

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2005, 02:29:55 pm »
Both were die-head reds who would do anything for the club.  From what I saw of Smithy on the homecoming parade he didn't seem bitter, I think he was saying it was better than Rome '77 (could be wrong, I was a little 'tired and emotional').  And as for Emlyn and the Everton remark - pure quality!
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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2005, 02:51:07 pm »
There was one incident when Tommy Smith was left out of the line-up by Paisley and Liverpool were losing at half-time. According to Tommy, Paisley looked at Hughes and said "And you were telling me about how slow our defence was and that it needed changing!". Tommy took this as a confirmation that Emlyn had lobbied with Paisley for Smith to be dropped.

Offline Terry B

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2005, 02:59:29 pm »
Hughes got on the mike at St Georges Hall and started singing "Liverpool are magic, Everton are tragic". He reckoned that was bang out of order as a lot of Blues turned up that night.

I love Emlyn, but he fucked up that night. That one little incident changed the relationship between the fans of both clubs forever.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2005, 03:14:05 pm »
Both were die-head reds who would do anything for the club.  From what I saw of Smithy on the homecoming parade he didn't seem bitter, I think he was saying it was better than Rome '77 (could be wrong, I was a little 'tired and emotional').  And as for Emlyn and the Everton remark - pure quality!

He couldn't help bringing in digs about certain players, and Houllier, from what I remember. Think Hansen (on Sky Sports / SSN coverage) tried to divert his attention to more positive climes.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2005, 05:03:27 pm »
Tommy has never held anything back when it comes to expressing his viewpoints. It's ok to be opinionated but sometimes he goes over the top but that's the way he is and always will be. Those two guys were never close although Emlyn always said Smith was the best captain he'd ever played under.

Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2005, 05:19:16 pm »
whatever their problems..they are both great in our eyes..thats all that matters!

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2005, 05:21:22 pm »
As with the original root of the Phil Thompson/Graeme Souness issues, it is supposed to have been about the captaincy.  There is also the suggestion that it was the shifting of Shankly's affections from Smith to Hughes.

There was apparently also a politicial ideology aspect to it due to Emlyn not exactly being a red blooded socialist.

In the good old days, of course, clubs, particularly our one, did not air their dirty laundry in public so it might well have been about a car parking space or priority use of a hairdryer for all I know for certain.

Well Tommy Smith votes Tory, so I doubt it was anything to do with politics.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2005, 05:22:35 pm »
I love Emlyn, but he fucked up that night. That one little incident changed the relationship between the fans of both clubs forever.

He apologized the next day.

Offline Terry B

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2005, 05:23:40 pm »
He apologized the next day.

Damage was done, though.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2005, 05:33:57 pm »

I heard that Tommy was absolutely livid that when Emlyn was asked who was the greatest manager, and after having played for both Shankly and Paisley, he said Brian Clough.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2005, 05:41:11 pm »
I think to some extent the Anfield Iron has traded upon this in his latter years on his after-dinner speaking circuit.

Undoubtedly they didn't get on but I'll bet there was an element of it being blown up out of proportion latterly for effect.

yeah i was listening to him at one last month and to sum up the pettiness of it all- One of the competitions was to guess Smithy's all time Liverpool team, every table had the shortlists for Defence Midfield etc and he Emlyn wasn't even on the list. I asked him about it and he just growled , mind you he also said that Gerrard had a 50p head. Thought of Tommy whilst celebrating in Istanbul after his header ;D
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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2005, 05:46:34 pm »
Well Tommy Smith votes Tory, so I doubt it was anything to do with politics.

I stand corrected, apologies.  Suprises me about Smith in light of the support he has had from his trade union but I suppose that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2005, 06:34:23 pm »
Well Tommy Smith votes Tory, so I doubt it was anything to do with politics.

Source?  Not disputing you, just would like to know thats all.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2005, 07:07:25 pm »
I was lucky enough to meet Emlyn on many occasions. He was one of my Dads friends, friends. He was always a gentleman and someone who I feel privileged to have met. I was about 14 and he would often get me tickets for the players lounge after the match. He also arranged to give me a private tour of Anfield and I was lucky enough to have my photo taken holding the European Cup.

I can not comment on Tommy Smith as I did/do not know him.

Whilst I did not meet Emlyn again after he left LFC, I still shed a tear for him when he past on. A true gentleman.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2005, 07:13:12 pm »
Even .tv acknowledges the rift....


Hughes was handed a huge personal accolade on the eve of the following campaign when he was named club captain in succession to Tommy Smith.
 
It was a move that was to signal the beginning of a long-running feud between Smith and Hughes. It's no secret that the two never saw eye to eye but it was testimony to their professionalism that they never let it affect their relationship on the pitch.
 
Hughes says of Smith: "He is the greatest captain I have ever played under. Although I never got along with him as a man, I had nothing but admiration and respect for him as a captain on the pitch."
 
While, Smith said of Hughes: "Football-wise he's alright. They call him Crazy Horse because he's got bags of energy. He is part of Liverpool and you can't take that away from him."
 
Together, Hughes and Smith were to enjoy many great moments in the famous red shirt and those who watched them play would never have detected the animosity.
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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2005, 08:18:18 pm »
I love Emlyn, but he fucked up that night. That one little incident changed the relationship between the fans of both clubs forever.

Terry, don't know you mate and you are entitled to and I respect your opinion but I think that's just a bit of bollocks. The relationship between both sets of fans was never as hunky dory as the Echo et al would have you believe. We, in the Kop, had been singing , Liverpool are magic. Everton are tragic" for ages before that. It had been taken from a catchphrase of Selwyn Froggatt, a popular TV series of the time. Emlyn was only singing what we were singing. You can't blame Emlyn for divisions between red and blue. It goes FAR deeper than that.

I'll be posting an excerpt from my book MY YOUTH MY KOP a bit later on which sheds some more light on the subject.

Terry, have you bought my books?  ;D
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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2005, 08:29:16 pm »
Terry, don't know you mate and you are entitled to and I respect your opinion but I think that's just a bit of bollocks. The relationship between both sets of fans was never as hunky dory as the Echo et al would have you believe. We, in the Kop, had been singing , Liverpool are magic. Everton are tragic" for ages before that. It had been taken from a catchphrase of Selwyn Froggatt, a popular TV series of the time. Emlyn was only singing what we were singing. You can't blame Emlyn for divisions between red and blue. It goes FAR deeper than that.

I'll be posting an excerpt from my book MY YOUTH MY KOP a bit later on which sheds some more light on the subject.

Terry, have you bought my books?  ;D
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Offline Terry B

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2005, 08:31:27 pm »
Terry, don't know you mate and you are entitled to and I respect your opinion but I think that's just a bit of bollocks. The relationship between both sets of fans was never as hunky dory as the Echo et al would have you believe. We, in the Kop, had been singing , Liverpool are magic. Everton are tragic" for ages before that. It had been taken from a catchphrase of Selwyn Froggatt, a popular TV series of the time. Emlyn was only singing what we were singing. You can't blame Emlyn for divisions between red and blue. It goes FAR deeper than that.

I'll be posting an excerpt from my book MY YOUTH MY KOP a bit later on which sheds some more light on the subject.

Terry, have you bought my books?  ;D

I was only very young, but I do remember the Kop singing it. And I'm not blaming Emlyn for the divisions, but surely one of our players saying it to thousands of Reds at the homecoming was a bit out of order, and likely to piss off the majority of Bluenoses? I think whatever good relationship there was was gone then. I know a few Blues now who say they hate Emlyn and the club because of that moment.

I haven't bought any of your books, no, as I'm potless at them moment. I'll have a read of the excerpt later, though - if it's free  ;)




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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2005, 08:31:31 pm »
Before we get into the Smith v Hughes debate compare these statistics;

Tommy Smith: League appearances 467, League goals 36. Total appearances 633, Total goals 48.

Emlyn Hughes: League appearances 474, League goals 35. Total appearances 657, Total goals 48.

Uncannily similar aren't they? Yet why should Smith have such a hatred of Hughes when they were both such brilliant servants to our club? Why should Smith vilify Hughes when they played alongside each other virtually week in, week out for eleven years?

To give Emlyn's side of the story is to say that he has always maintained a dignified silence on the matter.

Tommy's side is that Emlyn was arrogant, had no real feeling for the club and was more interested in his England career.

My opinion, which I don't expect many people to agree with, is that Tommy's feelings towards Emlyn were born more of jealousy than anything else. Remember, Emlyn took the captaincy from Tommy as Tommy had from Rowdy. I didn't hear Rowdy bleating though. I also didn't hear anything from Emlyn when Thommo took his captaincy. Emlyn won 62 England caps, 59 of them whilst playing for us; Tommy won just one although there is no doubt he should have won many more. To say Emlyn had no real feeling for the club is ludicrous when you consider their almost identical Liverpool records (Emlyn in fact having played slightly more games). You only have to look at the sheer, unrestrained joy on Emlyn's face when he scored, especially the two goals against Everton in 1973, to realise his commitment to our club.

I did send a very similar letter to Tommy's letters page in the Echo a while ago but obviously it didn't get published. Even if it had have been I'm sure I would have got an Over The Top.

Anyway, I hope that's opened people's minds somewhat. Not everything's black and white. I just find it very sad that Tommy should feel so badly towards another great Red. Listen to Shanks talking about both Emlyn and Tommy and tell me that you don't feel the same way.

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Offline ALPH1217

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2005, 10:58:01 pm »
I also agree that Smith's problems with Emlyn can be attributed to jealousy and/or resentment. Emlyn had a lot of boyish enthusiasm which endeared him to us but may have rubbed some of his teammates the wrong way. He was the guy who took Tommy's captaincy and you can make the case that Smith never got over it. I don't think any of this stuff affected their play on the pitch because they're two of the best servants we've ever had. As far as Emlyn not having any feeling for the club   .   .   gimme a break. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who played for the club as passionately as he did. He never gave less than 100% on the pitch which made up for his lack of technical skill.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2005, 03:02:10 am »
Been to a couple of dinners wi tommy bein the speaker.He admitted several times that he absolutely hated Emlyn.It spoilt the night for me.
I too think it was pure jealousy on Smith's part.
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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2005, 10:05:38 am »
Emlyn was larger than life, wore his heart on his sleeve.

Tommy no nonsense lets get into them tough tough man, never seen him come 2nd to any one George Best in his prime included.

Two vastly different people, but both would have died for us.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2005, 10:15:18 am »
I think Evo sums it up best. The jealousy issue certainly played a part.

Also at the time, Smith epitomised the older style footballer, both in living ways and footballing terms, get in hard, kill first, ask later, that kind of thing, whereas Crazy Horse was probably just too up for a laugh, and looked like he didn't take life too seriously, and was more skilful on the ball than Tommy.

Yep.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2005, 10:16:22 am »
I was only very young, but I do remember the Kop singing it. And I'm not blaming Emlyn for the divisions, but surely one of our players saying it to thousands of Reds at the homecoming was a bit out of order, and likely to piss off the majority of Bluenoses? I think whatever good relationship there was was gone then. I know a few Blues now who say they hate Emlyn and the club because of that moment.

I haven't bought any of your books, no, as I'm potless at them moment. I'll have a read of the excerpt later, though - if it's free  ;)

I seem to recall at the homecoming in '77 that Emlyn was very "tired and emotional" which clearly affected his judgement.

Don't see that incident as a seminal moment in our relationship with Blues fans.

The drift apart came from our building success in the 70s and 80s while previously the two clubs were comparatively similar in success terms - they never came to terms with us taking over what they perceived as their place as top dogs.
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Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2005, 10:26:15 am »
I seem to recall at the homecoming in '77 that Emlyn was very "tired and emotional" which clearly affected his judgement.

Don't see that incident as a seminal moment in our relationship with Blues fans.

The drift apart came from our building success in the 70s and 80s while previously the two clubs were comparatively similar in success terms - they never came to terms with us taking over what they perceived as their place as top dogs.

Spot on mate.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #32 on: November 4, 2012, 11:16:20 am »
Been to a couple of dinners wi tommy bein the speaker.He admitted several times that he absolutely hated Emlyn.It spoilt the night for me.
I too think it was pure jealousy on Smith's part.
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Offline gkmacca

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #33 on: November 4, 2012, 11:31:27 am »
Before we get into the Smith v Hughes debate compare these statistics;

Tommy Smith: League appearances 467, League goals 36. Total appearances 633, Total goals 48.

Emlyn Hughes: League appearances 474, League goals 35. Total appearances 657, Total goals 48.

Uncannily similar aren't they? Yet why should Smith have such a hatred of Hughes when they were both such brilliant servants to our club? Why should Smith vilify Hughes when they played alongside each other virtually week in, week out for eleven years?




That's really surprised me, and I can remember watching the two of them. I never realised they had such similar records. It saddens me  that they didn't get on, and Tommy can't stop reminding people about it, but they're both legends of the club and it was a privilege to see them play.

Offline exilescouse

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #34 on: November 4, 2012, 11:40:44 am »
Emlyn owes my mate a quid.

As for the feud, it's possibly the same as any group, there are always some that don't see eye to eye, no biggie, both were fantastic servants.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #35 on: November 4, 2012, 11:44:42 am »
I seem to recall at the homecoming in '77 that Emlyn was very "tired and emotional" which clearly affected his judgement.

Don't see that incident as a seminal moment in our relationship with Blues fans.

True.
It didn't immediately change the relationship between the clubs.
I was working at Goodison Park at the time and there was a lot of goodwill towards the club and its success.
But they took Emlyn's comments badly as so many blues had turned out for the homecoming.
Despite his apologies he was never forgiven.
I think Smithy also remarked that Emlyn's comments had taken a few thousand off the gate for his testamonial.

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #36 on: November 4, 2012, 12:12:20 pm »
Never knew this. Shows how good the climate in the past was to keep it stum. Dont think its possible in this modern era tbf

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #37 on: November 4, 2012, 12:35:50 pm »
Damage was done, though.

What damage, how about Shankly saying "if Everton were playing at the bottom of the garden, I'd close the curtains"  they still loved him enough to invite him to their games when he retired, in fact Mr.Shankly himself said that he was treated better by Everton when he retired.
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Offline ALPH1217

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #38 on: November 4, 2012, 02:42:15 pm »
I've heard that Tommy Smith never had much use for Heighway either. If so, maybe the jealousy/resentment factor came into play again. In Steve's case he's a rarity - a footballer with a brain.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith rivalry
« Reply #39 on: November 4, 2012, 06:04:16 pm »
Stevie and Brian Big Bamber and little Bamber, but i digress, Emlyn for me is above Kenny and Stevie as my all time greatest Liverpool player, and Tommy was always a bit of a moaner but a great player for us.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Not a world i want to live in!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway