Topic: Local Elections May 4th 2017

[redmark]

He's not done a good job and he's been all over the place. But you can't excuse the actions of his own MPs either.

I don't think people are excusing the handful who were openly hostile (rather than those who simply disagreed and kept quiet on the backbenches) - but they are pointing out that other political leaders have faced such internal opposition and overcome it, strengthened their positions and gone on to win elections. Corby could have brought on board some political opponents - to isolate the more outspoken critics - or he could have been tougher in facing them down. He did neither. The impression of the last two years is of him saying we need to 'work together' with an irritated look on his face, while struggling to come up with any coherent policy platform (a few isolated policies does not a platform make).

It all comes back to the question of leadership. He hasn't forged a new identity, radical policy platform or narrative for the party. He hasn't dealt with internal critics either by winning them over or shutting them up. He hasn't delivered the promised surge in participation and community-led activism to tap into the alleged 'millions' of disenchanted non-voters who were simply waiting to be heard.

He hasn't done any of the things his supporters said he could; things which his critics said were wishful thinking.

[redmark]

If you think the Labour party showed total unity and gave Corbyn a chance from the start I don't know what else to say to you.

No political party shows total unity to any new leader. Successful leaders win it through ideas and action, or isolate their opponents.

[redmark]

The idea that Corbyn needed total unity to make his leadership a success is much the same argument as the Labour Party being 'unfairly' represented in the media. That's how it is. A party isn't united, and the media isn't going to give a left wing leader an easy time. Either fight and win against opposition, or don't bother pretending.

[Team Sleep]

No political party shows total unity to any new leader. Successful leaders win it through ideas and action, or isolate their opponents.

The idea that Corbyn needed total unity to make his leadership a success is much the same argument as the Labour Party being 'unfairly' represented in the media. That's how it is. A party isn't united, and the media isn't going to give a left wing leader an easy time. Either fight and win against opposition, or don't bother pretending.

Both reasonable posts. I'm not suggesting total unity means blind obedience - there's every chance he'd have made a fucking hash of that anyway - but keeping your problems behind close doors and showing unity against one of the weakest, but most destructive, Governments possible was clearly the way ahead. Labour failed at the first step for a variety of reasons.

Don't think it's any shock that Labour winning in 1997 and then staying in power coincided with support from the otherwise right wing media. Not sure how far a party can get in this country without that endorsement now. Maybe we'll find out in 2022.

Anyway, thanks to all for the discussion.

[TepidT2O]

Both reasonable posts. I'm not suggesting total unity means blind obedience - there's every chance he'd have made a fucking hash of that anyway - but keeping your problems behind close doors and showing unity against one of the weakest, but most destructive, Governments possible was clearly the way ahead. Labour failed at the first step for a variety of reasons.

Don't think it's any shock that Labour winning in 1997 and then staying in power coincided with support from the otherwise right wing media. Not sure how far a party can get in this country without that endorsement now. Maybe we'll find out in 2022.

Anyway, thanks to all for the discussion.

The mainstream media is surely less important than it was?

Social media must surely lessen its importance?

The media reports what its readers want to hear.  The media supported labour when it suited them to do so.
It suited them because it suited their readers.

Surely it's simple?

[Team Sleep]

The mainstream media is surely less important than it was?

Social media must surely lessen its importance?

The media reports what its readers want to hear.  The media supported labour when it suited them to do so.
It suited them because it suited their readers.

Surely it's simple?

I'm not sure to what extent social media has lessened the impact the mainstream media; but if anything, social media seems to have been more productive for the right than left over the last year or two. A lot of people still rely on the mainstream media for their news and get the biases and narratives that come with the sources they choose. The right wing media seem much more driven by the vested interests and opinions of those they're beholden to (Murdoch, etc) than the left, but perhaps that's just my own biases showing. The mainstream media still has a big part to play in elections, and as with the parties themselves, the right are simply better (or more productive) at it than the left.

[classycarra]

The mainstream media is surely less important than it was?

Social media must surely lessen its importance?

The media reports what its readers want to hear.  The media supported labour when it suited them to do so.
It suited them because it suited their readers.

Surely it's simple?

Yeah Team Sleep got that the wrong way around. The media came onside (at least in terms of election endorsement, obviously didn't last) because Labour were going to win, not the other way around

[Team Sleep]

Yeah Team Sleep got that the wrong way around. The media came onside (at least in terms of election endorsement, obviously didn't last) because Labour were going to win, not the other way around

They may well have seen the way the wind was blowing but there's no doubt the endorsement helps further still. Learning to get the media on side, or manage how they can actually report on you, is clearly an important part of electioneering.

Corbyn, McDonnell and the rest can rail against the media and how they are portrayed all they want, but they'd get more mileage out of buying page space and writing pieces to get their views printed in the absence of direct support. The media can shit all over it in their editorials as much as they want, but they need to find a way into the lives of people who aren't showing up to their rallies.

[classycarra]

They may well have seen the way the wind was blowing but there's no doubt the endorsement helps further still. Learning to get the media on side, or manage how they can actually report on you, is clearly an important part of electioneering.

Corbyn, McDonnell and the rest can rail against the media and how they are portrayed all they want, but they'd get more mileage out of buying page space and writing pieces to get their views printed in the absence of direct support. The media can shit all over it in their editorials as much as they want, but they need to find a way into the lives of people who aren't showing up to their rallies.

Corbyn does do that. He's spent a shitload for full page ads in the Guardian. Usually it's just to get himself elected though.

Just getting the media a story (intentionally) would be a start. Instead, their awful and slow delivery of new policies usually becomes the story

[Team Sleep]

Corbyn does do that. He's spent a shitload for full page ads in the Guardian. Usually it's just to get himself elected though.

Just getting the media a story (intentionally) would be a start. Instead, their awful and slow delivery of new policies usually becomes the story

It's not the Guardian he needs to get ads or articles into unfortunately. Yet to see any evidence of a media strategy but he's going to have to get his hands dirty in right-leaning media to have any hope at all.

[classycarra]

It's not the Guardian he needs to get ads or articles into unfortunately. Yet to see any evidence of a media strategy but he's going to have to get his hands dirty in right-leaning media to have any hope at all.

You're working on the assumption that that's what he wants to do. The Guardian was the right paper, as he wanted to appeal to sections of the Labour membership. He has no intention of learning, nor the capacity to learn new tricks. It's a general election campaign, he doesn't need help getting coverage. He just needs good ideas, good staff and hard work to reach media deadlines. And that's the problem

[Alan_X]

Not really

http://labourlist.org/2017/05/we-are-closing-the-gap-on-the-tories-corbyn-on-labours-results/

What the actual fuck?

[Zeb]

It's not the Guardian he needs to get ads or articles into unfortunately. Yet to see any evidence of a media strategy but he's going to have to get his hands dirty in right-leaning media to have any hope at all.

I wouldn't assume that there's any desire to improve or even much questioning of a need to improve. One of the big criticisms of Corbyn from MPs across the spectrum, excluding his own small clique, is that there is no mechanism for external ideas to break through into what is done. (A criticism fairly levied against Blair too, the irony, the irony.) They campaign like they're protesting, and the more things going against them the more there is to protest against. Criticism is ideological validation. They don't even have any incentive to engage outside their comfort zone because they don't really believe they'll ever form a government and so haven't even really tried to pretend to be offering a workable alternative. They're building a movement and the revolution, as ever, has a fixed date of 'tomorrow'.

edit: had the tab open for an age, just seen Classycarra's post saying it before me. Yeah. It is what it is.

[B0151?]

If you think the Labour party showed total unity and gave Corbyn a chance from the start I don't know what else to say to you.

I think it would be obvious to say that the Labour battles over Corbyn haven't helped him at all, but it just goes to show that it's pretty stupid to have a leader who is unpopular with his colleagues to begin with. It was pretty stupid to not walk when there was a big vote of no confidence also, regardless of the justice of it, there was no coming back from that. (Not that I don't think it wasn't a massively ill-judged attempt to get him to leave, but Corbyn not walking should have been easily anticipated). It all comes back to the fact it was a massive mistake that Corbyn was given the chance to run in the first place when he never had that support, rules were there for a reason. The PLP thought he would be a disaster and he didn't have the skills to win them over. It's such a mess.

But even then, the internal shitshows just meant the media didn't have to even really attack him and could just save it for these next few weeks. Right now the public just think Corbyn is shite, but if the media had been constantly attacking him with all they had, I think they'd fucking hate him. That of course, is why the party didn't unite behind him to begin with and is keen to disassociate from him. It's not just that he's shite, it's all in Yorky's post, there's plenty in there to make people think he's toxic.

[oldfordie]

I think it would be obvious to say that the Labour battles over Corbyn haven't helped him at all, but it just goes to show that it's pretty stupid to have a leader who is unpopular with his colleagues to begin with. It was pretty stupid to not walk when there was a big vote of no confidence also, regardless of the justice of it, there was no coming back from that. (Not that I don't think it wasn't a massively ill-judged attempt to get him to leave, but Corbyn not walking should have been easily anticipated). It all comes back to the fact it was a massive mistake that Corbyn was given the chance to run in the first place when he never had that support, rules were there for a reason. The PLP thought he would be a disaster and he didn't have the skills to win them over. It's such a mess.

But even then, the internal shitshows just meant the media didn't have to even really attack him and could just save it for these next few weeks. Right now the public just think Corbyn is shite, but if the media had been constantly attacking him with all they had, I think they'd fucking hate him. That of course, is why the party didn't unite behind him to begin with and is keen to disassociate from him. It's not just that he's shite, it's all in Yorky's post, there's plenty in there to make people think he's toxic.

Some may say this now but history will be the judge. the vote of no confidence was justified, he never won their confidence or respect for a reason, he was useless from day 1, his attitude throughout the referendum campaign was the final straw, he refused to stand down, this was his decision alone and what followed was unnecessary but it only came about due to his refusal to accept realty.
I think history will vindicate the Labour MPs, they tried their best to avert the disaster they knew was about to come, the disaster they foresaw is now becoming a realty both for Labour and the country.