Topic: PL: West Ham 3 vs 2 Liverpool Fornals 5’, 67’, Trent 41 Zouma 75’ Origi 83’

[Eeyore]

Tell me what you consider the 1st XI and then the massive drop off to the rest of the squad (starting with position 12 in the squad)?

It would be good if you can respond to this message because I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.

It is very easy to see who Klopp considers as first 11 players and who he doesn't. We have quite a large group of players who would be lucky to get on the pitch at all barring injuries. The story of the last few years has been one of having huge drop offs in ability when first choice players are unavailable. One of struggling to fill the bench and even fill a 25 man squad.

In another post you spoke about Klopp having a top 5 squad well that simply isn't good enough. Finishing 5th for a couple of seasons in a row would get Klopp sacked or at the very least under huge pressure.

Every season we go into the campaign with huge issues over at least one area of the squad. Instead of being pro active and addressing those clear issues that we face, we wait until they blow up in our faces.

Not re-signing Gini or replacing him with someone Klopp trusts is the latest in a whole line of mistakes that have cost us trophies or the ability to compete for them. That for me though is the issue we are owned by someone who made his money from following trends. They want evidence before they spend. Which means Karius has to chuck a couple in his goal in a CL final before he gets replaced, Adrian has to do likewise against Atletico.

We allowed the likes of Robbo and Bobby to be run into the ground with no backups because the evidence was that they were still performing at a decent level. Despite having no fit senior centre backs last January the evidence was clear we were top of the League so it was okay.

The evidence was clear that we were okay in midfield because we were unbeaten in 20 odd games. Except anyone with a modicum of football nous could see we were running who was left standing into the ground. People complain about the midfield against West Ham. What do they expect when we started the same three against Atletico and West Ham. With Fabinho coming back from injury, Ox made of glass and Hendo unable to play with his usual intensity when asked to play multiple games back to back.

[El Lobo]

Snip

Good post Al, but it would actually be quite interesting to see you respond to what he actually asked

Tell me what you consider the 1st XI and then the massive drop off to the rest of the squad (starting with position 12 in the squad)?

[Jookie]

It is very easy to see who Klopp considers as first 11 players and who he doesn't. We have quite a large group of players who would be lucky to get on the pitch at all barring injuries. The story of the last few years has been one of having huge drop offs in ability when first choice players are unavailable. One of struggling to fill the bench and even fill a 25 man squad.

In another post you spoke about Klopp having a top 5 squad well that simply isn't good enough. Finishing 5th for a couple of seasons in a row would get Klopp sacked or at the very least under huge pressure.

Answer the Q I asked you. Rather than give some round about answer.

I also said we have a Top 5 squad in World football. You’ve equated that to finishing 5th.

I’m quite a tolerant person but you are driving me mad. Are you a wind up merchant, can’t read or comprehend other people’s posts or are you an absolute nobhead?

I’ve going to mute you now and your the 1st person I’ve done that to in over 10 years on here.

[Eeyore]

Right, but this is the whole crux isn't it? Do you genuinely not see how lazy that is? Its what 12 year olds moan about on twitter.

We're a self sufficient football club. That means everything. Transfers, wages, infrastructure, ground improvements, training ground etc etc etc. I think the largest profit in a year we've ever made is £42 million, and its more common for us to make a loss. It also means that everything is at that elite level, including wages. I'd suggest its a lot easier for teams like Aston Villa and Everton to look amazing on the old net spend table when they don't need to pay big wages to good players, they dont improve their ground, they don't need to worry about trivialities like bonuses for winning trophies, like paying agents to extend their clients contracts.

If you're incapable of looking at anything other than 'net spend' then you just can't expect to have any sort of reasoned conversation around our transfer activity.

As for why we didn't sign a CM, my guess is that it genuinely did have more to do with what we already had rather than not being able to afford one. Its been done to death, but we have 8 first team CMs. Considering Milner, Naby and Oxs contract status (Millie up in the summer, Naby and Ox likely to be into their final 12 months) my guess would be that we have our eyes on someone long term, like we did with Konate, and we felt we could comfortably get through the season and also use it as a bit of a 'last chance saloon' with Naby and Ox.

Please explain why FSG have been receiving loan repayments from the Club when we have had glaring weaknesses in the playing squad. When we have struggled to name a 25 man squad the the PL and CL and often end up naming two keepers on the bench.

The best bit though is that the club has to be run with the money in the till. The truth.

[Mighty_Red]

Liverpool have the 5th biggest wage bill in the world - that's designed to keep a brilliant squad together and not lose talent to other big fish - as happened in previous seasons. The pay off for this is that transfer activity is compromised to some degree as the emphasis is on player retention rather than new players.

I thought we were 2nd or 3rd highest (unless Chelsea overtook us) I think City were lower but we all know that they're paying wages off the books, but nevertheless your point still stands.

Clubs paying £100m less a year in wages can afford to pay that in transfer fees. For us to pay out big fees we will need to reduce the wage bill which means getting rid of senior players.

Again, it's all for a separate discussion, we lost because we played badly both individually and collectively and our defensive issues are systematic that needs fixing on the training ground rather then just buy better players and we win.

[Eeyore]

Answer the Q I asked you. Rather than give some round about answer.

I also said we have a Top 5 squad in World football. You’ve equated that to finishing 5th.

I’m quite a tolerant person but you are driving me mad. Are you a wind up merchant, can’t read or comprehend other people’s posts or are you an absolute nobhead?

I’ve going to mute you now and your the 1st person I’ve done that to in over 10 years on here.

I love your superiority complex mate. Demanding that I answer one question but instructing me to not answer another. Now you have put me on the naughty step. I am not sure how I will cope.

The best bit is your declaration that we have a top 5 squad in World Football. Is that really true or do we have an exceptional manager who regularly gets players to overperform. The reality is that a number of our key players aren't automatic starters for their national teams.

[El Lobo]

Snip

Please explain why I'd genuinely rather stick a molten hot fork into my bellend than discuss our owners with you

[Eeyore]

I thought we were 2nd or 3rd highest (unless Chelsea overtook us) I think City were lower but we all know that they're paying wages off the books, but nevertheless your point still stands.

Clubs paying £100m less a year in wages can afford to pay that in transfer fees. For us to pay out big fees we will need to reduce the wage bill which means getting rid of senior players.

Again, it's all for a separate discussion, we lost because we played badly both individually and collectively and our defensive issues are systematic that needs fixing on the training ground rather then just buy better players and we win.

Or we could stop paying loans to FSG and they could do what 99% of owners of Football Clubs have done and invest in their team.

[El Lobo]

The reality is that a number of our key players aren't automatic starters for their national teams.

Dyou think thats down to ability Al? Or maybe Klopp is a better judge of players than the likes of Southgate, Martinez, Luis Enrique, Tit(e)?

[Jookie]

The reality is that a number of our key players aren't automatic starters for their national teams.

So you are saying that Alisson, TAA, Fabinho, Thiago, Firmino (for example) aren't that great players, though key for us, because their national managers don't pick them.

You are scraping the barrel Al. But that's your go to options: avoid questions when you are challenged or give another unrelated answer or talk absolute wham.

I don't have a superiority complex. Literally no-one on here has ever said that apart from you then. What I do I have is an intolerance for people who I believe to be wilfully on a wind-up or unwilling or unable to debate and take on other viewpoints. You fit into 1 of those 2 categories. You are ether a windup merchant or you are so dogmatic and stuck into a way of thinking that you can't change or debate.

You pollute tonnes of thread with your nonsense that serves very little purpose because you are unwilling or unable to debate.

That's the last I'll say on it. See you later Al.

[Eeyore]

Good post Al, but it would actually be quite interesting to see you respond to what he actually asked

I did respond to his post. I just ignored the silly bit. If you went with Jookies logic then an injury to Ali would see Jota in goal because he is position 12 in the squad. For me we have a core of 13 or 14 players who are whittled down to a starting 11 if everyone is fit. That simply isn't good enough in the modern age. Especially when a significant number of that core are hitting their thirties and becoming more injury prone.

[killer-heels]

I guess you can say that in the case of any top signing that doesn't quite work out. Both Thiago and Keita were elite level signings, thought Thiago has proven this over many years whereas Naby is still at the potential stage.

The other issue with Thiago is that he has been unable to play the no6 role, or at least has struggled to do so. He has looked wonderful alongside Fab (when fully fit). Hopefully the intl break will give him the chance to get fully fit and ready for the next block of games.

I initially thought he would be able to fill in that no6 role when playing the ultra-low block sides which would enable us to get more attacking midfielders into the side but I guess his tackling isn't good enough for that.

I think this all means we need to get another no 6 in as we are actually more reliant on Fab than we first thought and covering his position puts too much stress on the rest of the CMs and the balance of the midfield. Maybe Morton could be that guy, but he is still developing.

You could also add that Thiago was amazing in the last 10 games last season which sealed our CL place, which makes him a success for that reason alone.

[El Lobo]

I did respond to his post. I just ignored the silly bit. If you went with Jookies logic then an injury to Ali would see Jota in goal because he is position 12 in the squad. For me we have a core of 13 or 14 players who are whittled down to a starting 11 if everyone is fit. That simply isn't good enough in the modern age. Especially when a significant number of that core are hitting their thirties and becoming more injury prone.

You didnt Al, you specifically said 'there is a massive drop off between the first 11 and the squad players' so you've obviously got a clear 'first 11' in your head. So it'd be fascinating to hear what that first 11 is and then the massive drop off to those who you don't consider 'first 11' 

And don't play the simpleton, you know full well what you were being asked. And if you can't answer it without making your initial point look silly, just admit that.

[nico 8]

Have you got any links or details on this mate

I do think its an occasion when Klopp felt let down

Cannot recall where I read it and couldn't find any reference or link.  Not sure if Klopp felt that he was let down as there wasn't anyone of sufficient quality to purchase during the January window except to the extent that the loan / purchase should have happened early in the window and not at the end of it. As it turned out, both new acquisitions got injured and their hand was forced to play both Phillips and Rhys even when Fabinho returned from injury and was played in his preferred position.

[amir87]

And I thought watching the match was painful.

[Eeyore]

So you are saying that Alisson, TAA, Fabinho, Thiago, Firmino (for example) aren't that great players, though key for us, because their national managers don't pick them.

You are scraping the barrel Al. But that's your go to options: avoid questions when you are challenged or give another unrelated answer or talk absolute wham.

I don't have a superiority complex. Literally no-one on here has ever said that apart from you then. What I do I have is an intolerance for people who I believe to be wilfully on a wind-up or unwilling or unable to debate and take on other viewpoints. You fit into 1 of those 2 categories. You are ether a windup merchant or you are so dogmatic and stuck into a way of thinking that you can't change or debate.

You pollute tonnes of thread with your nonsense that serves very little purpose because you are unwilling or unable to debate.

That's the last I'll say on it. See you later Al.

Add to that list Hendo who no longer starts for England and Robbo who rarely performs at anywhere near his Liverpool level for his national team.

Then look a bit deeper Jota wasn't an automatic starter at Wolves, Mane had periods of time out of the Southampton team and Mo struggled at Chelsea earlier in his career. For me Klopp has a knack of elevating players to another level because of the way he accentuates a players positives whilst protecting their weaknesses.

You only have to look at the players he had who looked world beaters and Dortmund but struggled elsewhere. Or look at Coutinho here.

I think we at times over estimate the ability of our players.

[Eeyore]

You didnt Al, you specifically said 'there is a massive drop off between the first 11 and the squad players' so you've obviously got a clear 'first 11' in your head. So it'd be fascinating to hear what that first 11 is and then the massive drop off to those who you don't consider 'first 11' 

And don't play the simpleton, you know full well what you were being asked. And if you can't answer it without making your initial point look silly, just admit that.

No mate we have a core of players who compete for the first 11 and a whole host of players who are squad players who only get chances when the core is injured. We lost a core player in Gini and didn't replace him.

For me

Ali in goal

Defence of Trent, Virgil, Matip and Robbo with Konate/Gomez coming in so we can rest Matip.

Midfield Fabinho, Hendo and Thiago/Milner.

Attack Mo, Bobby, Mane and Jota.

That is a remarkably small pool of players who are genuinely competing for a starting spot and for me why you get performances like Brighton and West Ham.

[El Lobo]

Tell you what Al, its a pretty fascinating tangent to go off on. International football is now the highest level, and our lads not being regulars for their country (despite monstrous success in the PL and CL) is proof that they're not as good as we thought

The top scorers in qualifying for the World Cup are Moreno (South America, he's 34), Depay (European, the second top is Eran Zahavi), Slimani (African, he's crap), and lets not even bother with the other areas. Trent not being able to get a kick over Reece fucking James.....is because Trent isn't as good as we think he is. Fabinho being on a similar footing to Fred isn't because Tite is a fucking awful coach....its because Fabinho actually is the same sort of standard as Fred.

[Chakan]

Watching everyone try get a straight answer from Al has always been one of the highlights of RAWK. Fascinating.

Like herding cats.

[Dubred]

Tell you what Al, its a pretty fascinating tangent to go off on. International football is now the highest level, and our lads not being regulars for their country (despite monstrous success in the PL and CL) is proof that they're not as good as we thought

The top scorers in qualifying for the World Cup are Moreno (South America, he's 34), Depay (European, the second top is Eran Zahavi), Slimani (African, he's crap), and lets not even bother with the other areas. Trent not being able to get a kick over Reece fucking James.....is because Trent isn't as good as we think he is. Fabinho being on a similar footing to Fred isn't because Tite is a fucking awful coach....its because Fabinho actually is the same sort of standard as Fred.

Lets bin Robbo and go all out for that Shaw fella.......I hear he's a regular for his country 

[Jm55]

Genuinely surprised that the conversation of transfers is coming up in reference to Sunday.

Ok Sunday we had -

The best goalkeeper in the world
The best centre half in the world
The best defensive midfielder in the world
The best player in the world
In addition to a number of players who would be considered ‘world class’ in their respective positions, Robbo, Matip, Thiago, Mane, and pretty much none of them played to the level they are capable of. It was clearly a day where the opposition played to their strengths (not necessarily their best I’m not convinced they were that great) and we were well off it and as a result we lose the game. Now there’s a legitimate conversation to be had in the wider sense that days like Sunday are happening with a higher frequency than a team with aspirations of winning the title can afford, and it’s one which I’m struggling with myself, but it clearly wasn’t down to transfers, with the exception of Firmino and arguably Thiago who starts from the bench, that was our best eleven on the pitch on Sunday, anyone pinning that on recruitment I’d be genuinely interested to hear what transfers they’d have made and who they would have dropped to accommodate them.

The default position after a poor result seems to be to blame the ownership for not signing more players, the Mancs have been doing that for years and it hasn’t exactly worked has it? Look, it may be the case that we get to the end of the season having had to play multiple games with weakened sides and at that point it may be a fair question to discuss a lack of recruitment, but it’s an odd take after we’ve fielded practically our strongest 11 against West Ham and just not performaed well enough to merit anything other than the defeat which we got.

[Jookie]

Which squad is best overall and which squad has the better depth? If possible it would be good to hear people’s reasoning.

I’ve tried not to list players twice but obviously Henderson can deputise for Fabinho, in the same way Cancelo can play RB for City. Thought this was the best way to lay out the squads.

Liverpool (26 players including 3 GKs)

GK - Alisson  -  Kelleher- Adrain

RB - TAA -  Williams
CB1 - VvD -  Konate - Phillips
CB2 - Matip – Gomez
LB - Robertson – Tsimikas

DM - Fabinho - XXX
CM1 - Henderson -  Keita – AOC-Milner
CM2 - Thiago – Jones- Elliott

RF - Salah -  Jota
CF - Firmino – Origi
LF - Mane- Minamino


Manchester City (22 players in 1st team squad including 3 GKs)

GK - Ederson-Steffen-Carson

RB-  Walker - XXX
CB1 - Dias - Stones
CB2 - Laporte -  Ake
LB - Cancelo-Zinchenko

DM - Rodri-Fernandinho
CM1 - Gundogan- B.Silva
CM2 - De Bruyne – Foden – Palmer

RF - Jesus-Mahrez
CF - Torres-XXX
LF - Grealish-Sterling

[Jookie]

Snip

As position groups would you rather have:

GK Alisson  -  Kelleher- Adrain or Ederson-Steffen-Carson (or equal)?

RB - TAA -  Williams                                           RB-  Walker - XXX
CB1 - VvD -  Konate - Phillips        OR                CB1 - Dias - Stones
CB2 - Matip – Gomez                                          CB2 - Laporte -  Ake
LB - Robertson – Tsimikas                                   LB - Cancelo-Zinchenko


DM - Fabinho - XXX                                             DM - Rodri-Fernandinho
CM1 - Henderson -  Keita – AOC-Milner    OR      CM1 - Gundogan- B.Silva
CM2 - Thiago – Jones- Elliott                               CM2 - De Bruyne – Foden – Palmer


RF - Salah -  Jota                                                  RF - Jesus-Mahrez
CF - Firmino – Origi                  OR                       CF - Torres-XXX
LF - Mane- Minamino                                           LF - Grealish-Sterling

[Eeyore]

Tell you what Al, its a pretty fascinating tangent to go off on. International football is now the highest level, and our lads not being regulars for their country (despite monstrous success in the PL and CL) is proof that they're not as good as we thought

The top scorers in qualifying for the World Cup are Moreno (South America, he's 34), Depay (European, the second top is Eran Zahavi), Slimani (African, he's crap), and lets not even bother with the other areas. Trent not being able to get a kick over Reece fucking James.....is because Trent isn't as good as we think he is. Fabinho being on a similar footing to Fred isn't because Tite is a fucking awful coach....its because Fabinho actually is the same sort of standard as Fred.

The elephant in the room is that monstrous success has come about with Klopp as a manager. Firmino is a perfect example. Is the reason he isn't an automatic starter for Brazil because they have had a succession of idiots in charge of Brazil or is it simply the fact that Klopp has created a system that gets the maximum out of Firmino. Look at Rodgers who is a good coach Firmino never looked a world beater under him.

Then we get to Trent who performs at a much higher level for Liverpool than he does for England because Klopp sets up with him as our playmaker. The funny thing is that posters like yourself complain about the unlimited resources of City and Chelsea with one breath and then pretend James and Walker aren't exceptional players.

Finally we get to Fabinho who funny enough gets compared to Fred now. Not so long ago it was Casemiro, until we drew Madrid and people saw how exceptional he is. As it goes I can see why Fred is considered to be on a similar level to Fabinho for Brazil because he adds mobility to the midfield something that is needed with the way they setup. Strangely though you are quite happy to make comparisons between Fred and Fabinho based on their domestic performances without acknowledging the gulf in quality between Klopp and the clown in the United dug out.

The main thing for me is that we have to acknowledge the part Klopp plays in the Liverpool performances of the likes of Robbo, Hendo, Fabinho and Bobby etc.

[Dubred]

Christ on a bike, some of what you state above is digestable and worthy of some level of thought, but are you really now comparing Fred to Fabinho just because of the Brazil NT?

Honestly mate, you don't do yourself any favours when in amongst your chat, you do provoke an interesting debate on some of your thoughts.

[jillcwhomever]

Add to that list Hendo who no longer starts for England and Robbo who rarely performs at anywhere near his Liverpool level for his national team.

Then look a bit deeper Jota wasn't an automatic starter at Wolves, Mane had periods of time out of the Southampton team and Mo struggled at Chelsea earlier in his career. For me Klopp has a knack of elevating players to another level because of the way he accentuates a players positives whilst protecting their weaknesses.

You only have to look at the players he had who looked world beaters and Dortmund but struggled elsewhere. Or look at Coutinho here.

I think we at times over estimate the ability of our players.

Yet despite that, they have won a title and a European Cup.

[Eeyore]

As position groups would you rather have:

GK Alisson  -  Kelleher- Adrain or Ederson-Steffen-Carson (or equal)?

RB - TAA -  Williams                                           RB-  Walker - XXX
CB1 - VvD -  Konate - Phillips        OR                CB1 - Dias - Stones
CB2 - Matip – Gomez                                          CB2 - Laporte -  Ake
LB - Robertson – Tsimikas                                   LB - Cancelo-Zinchenko


DM - Fabinho - XXX                                             DM - Rodri-Fernandinho
CM1 - Henderson -  Keita – AOC-Milner    OR      CM1 - Gundogan- B.Silva
CM2 - Thiago – Jones- Elliott                               CM2 - De Bruyne – Foden – Palmer


RF - Salah -  Jota                                                  RF - Jesus-Mahrez
CF - Firmino – Origi                  OR                       CF - Torres-XXX
LF - Mane- Minamino                                           LF - Grealish-Sterling

For starters the City midfield is levels above ours. The biggest thing though is the number of legitimate starters City have.

Our biggest issue is not having enough legitimate starters and far too many squad players. We then exacerbate that problem by swapping core players for other core players. Thiago arriving and Lovren leaving followed by Konate arriving and Gini leaving is just bizarre.

Injuries to our defensive core cost us last season whilst injuries to our midfield core are costing us at the moment. 

[nico 8]

As position groups would you rather have:

GK Alisson  -  Kelleher- Adrain or Ederson-Steffen-Carson (or equal)?

RB - TAA -  Williams                                           RB-  Walker - XXX
CB1 - VvD -  Konate - Phillips        OR                CB1 - Dias - Stones
CB2 - Matip – Gomez                                          CB2 - Laporte -  Ake
LB - Robertson – Tsimikas                                   LB - Cancelo-Zinchenko


DM - Fabinho - XXX                                             DM - Rodri-Fernandinho
CM1 - Henderson -  Keita – AOC-Milner    OR      CM1 - Gundogan- B.Silva
CM2 - Thiago – Jones- Elliott                               CM2 - De Bruyne – Foden – Palmer


RF - Salah -  Jota                                                  RF - Jesus-Mahrez
CF - Firmino – Origi                  OR                       CF - Torres-XXX
LF - Mane- Minamino                                           LF - Grealish-Sterling

I think we edge the the back 5 and front 3 whilst they edge the midfield. It really is a close call and it all depends on the day and the manager on the day in changing / adapting things during the game.
Would Gundogan / Silva and KDB with Fabinho at 6 make us stronger in our style of play. Silva on present form no doubt given his work rate and ability on the ball.

[Eeyore]

Christ on a bike, some of what you state above is digestable and worthy of some level of thought, but are you really now comparing Fred to Fabinho just because of the Brazil NT?

Honestly mate, you don't do yourself any favours when in amongst your chat, you do provoke an interesting debate on some of your thoughts.

I have said that Fred is more mobile than Fabinho and given the tactics Brazil employ then I can see a logical reason why you would pick Fred ahead of Fabinho in their system. That doesn't mean I don't think Fabinho is a much better player.

[jillcwhomever]

For starters the City midfield is levels above ours. The biggest thing though is the number of legitimate starters City have.

Our biggest issue is not having enough legitimate starters and far too many squad players. We then exacerbate that problem by swapping core players for other core players. Thiago arriving and Lovren leaving followed by Konate arriving and Gini leaving is just bizarre.

Injuries to our defensive core cost us last season whilst injuries to our midfield core are costing us at the moment.

Why are you comparing us with City when they are owned by one of the richest countries in the world and have enjoyed unlimited spending?

[Eeyore]

Why are you comparing us with City when they are owned by one of the richest countries in the world and have enjoyed unlimited spending?

Why are you addressing that question to me and not the person who spent considerable time listing both squads ?

[El Lobo]

The elephant in the room

There isn't an elephant in the room Al.....just a donut

Lets go through them one at a time though.

Is the reason he isn't an automatic starter for Brazil because they have had a succession of idiots in charge of Brazil or is it simply the fact that Klopp has created a system that gets the maximum out of Firmino. Look at Rodgers who is a good coach Firmino never looked a world beater under him.

Their last two managers have been Dunga and Tite. I'm gonna go with 'yes, they've had a succession of idiots'.

Brendan Rodgers..... Fucking hell Al, why do you do it to yourself. He played seven games for Rodgers, at the tail end of his time here. I'm not quite sure you can draw from that that Firmino actually isn't particularly good and its only Klopp who can get the best out of him.

Then we get to Trent who performs at a much higher level for Liverpool than he does for England because Klopp sets up with him as our playmaker. The funny thing is that posters like yourself complain about the unlimited resources of City and Chelsea with one breath and then pretend James and Walker aren't exceptional players.

Trent performs at a much higher level for Liverpool because a) he has better players around him, 2) he has a far better manager at club level and d) he plays under Gareth fucking Southgate for England

James and Walker aren't exceptional players Al, and if you think they are then you need re-educating on what exceptional is.

Finally we get to Fabinho who funny enough gets compared to Fred now. Not so long ago it was Casemiro, until we drew Madrid and people saw how exceptional he is. As it goes I can see why Fred is considered to be on a similar level to Fabinho for Brazil because he adds mobility to the midfield something that is needed with the way they setup. Strangely though you are quite happy to make comparisons between Fred and Fabinho based on their domestic performances without acknowledging the gulf in quality between Klopp and the clown in the United dug out.

This is one of the favourite paragraphs I've ever read on RAWK Its unknowing genius

The main thing for me is that we have to acknowledge the part Klopp plays in the Liverpool performances of the likes of Robbo, Hendo, Fabinho and Bobby etc.

Yes tremendous, now answer Jookies question

[Jookie]

I think we edge the the back 5 and front 3 whilst they edge the midfield. It really is a close call and it all depends on the day and the manager on the day in changing / adapting things during the game.
Would Gundogan / Silva and KDB with Fabinho at 6 make us stronger in our style of play. Silva on present form no doubt given his work rate and ability on the ball.

It's all matter of opinion but I think GK strength is similar.

In defence we have a gap at full back (RB cover) that is replicated a bit by City. I think our CB options are better than City's. Our 4th choice CB is better than Ake for start.

Up front I'd rather have our 1st 4 choices over any 1st 4 City can put forward. The debate comes on whether having their 5th choice player is better than having Minamino and Origi. If we had Jota, Salah, Firmino and Mane would you rather than supplemented with Torres or Minamino and Origi?

GK, defence and forwards are pretty similar though it's arguable we have a very slight edge in some areas.

I think midfield is the debate.

As a starting 3 would you rather have Fabinho-Henderson-Thiago or Rodri-De Bruyne-Gundogan (for example).

As back-ups is a pool of Keita-Milner-Jones-AOC-Elliott better or worse than Fernandinho-B.Silva-Foden-Palmer?

I think City have the edge in midfield. I think that's mainly because 3 of our transfers in that area haven't worked out as of yet. We've spent about 100M on transfers fees on Thiago, Keita and AOC and probably sink about 20-25M a year in wages on those 3 players. Is that the gap in squad quality between us and City? Is it not necessarily lack of investment but a few (current) misses in the transfer market in 1 area that is causing this perception of lack of squad depth?

I'm not saying that the above is true but it's something worth thinking about. We've invested a lot of funds (fees and wages) in midfield but it's probably the area with the most Q marks about overall quality. We've got the numbers in midfield (8 for 3 positions is well enough despite some being injury prone). But are some of the players showing enough quality on a regular basis?

[Jookie]

Why are you comparing us with City when they are owned by one of the richest countries in the world and have enjoyed unlimited spending?

I did this.

Really to show the 2 squads side-by-side despite City's obvious financial advantage.

It was really to put the 2 squads down and get people to debate the relative strengths versus  the notion that our squad depth is rubbish and everyone else's is boss.

I'm not sure that holds true when you look at the squads though it raises some Q's about where our lack of quality is (not quantity) when is comes to comparing ourself against, IMO, the best team in the league

[Mister Flip Flop]

So if Salah isn't sold, that means they've changed their model? 

If he's not sold and they pay him the reported 400k a week he's after then yes their model has changed.

I'm on record in here several times stating i don't think Mo will be a Liverpool player at the start of next season and they will use the transfer fee to freshen up the squad. I hope i'm wrong but that's my take on it.

[El Lobo]

I think Man Citys main strength is that they've got quite a few players who can drop into different positions and not many out and out specialists. They've probably got five or six players who could be considered in their 'depth chart' for midfield and attack, and likewise a few who can play CB, RB, LB as well as their usual positions. People will predictably jump on the midfield as if its amazing and ours is crap, and they've got loads of depth. But its not true at all.

[bornandbRED]

Show me where I said this.

I said he'd rather develop players in certain situations than roll the dice on a transfer for a potential marginal gain or where a top target can't be gotten. We've obviously bought people when we can get a clear upgrade and the club /Klopp have deemed an upgrade in a position necessary.

I think you should read my posts. I also asked you some Q's that you've completely ignored. It's not really a debate if you don't read my stuff properly, misconstrue what I've said, and the ignore some of my Q's/points.

You said he would rather develop players than roll the dice on unknown quantities or words to that effect. Not true - every transfer is a risk to some extent and Klopp, like any other manager - has revamped this side primarily through recruitment of superior personnel. I don’t subscribe at all to the notion we wait for players - football is a results business and it’s impossible to predict where you’ll be in 3 months time. There are top quality players available in every window as clubs around us continue to prove.

He has also reiterated repeatedly our inability to compete in the market (he did this at Dortmund too, and in January). This is what we know.

As for your questions about whether he’s happy to be complicit in FSG’s inertia - it’s clear he fancies himself to compete with what he has in any scenario. He’s not going to throw toys out of the pram and he still believes in the squad. However - when given the chance to spend, he has done and will do, like any other manager. These attempts to make out he’s some anti-transfer god who prioritises development until there’s no other option but to spend as the very last resort are fanciful.

[El Lobo]

These attempts to make out he’s some anti-transfer god who prioritises development until there’s no other option but to spend as the very last resort are fanciful.

I'd like to solve the catchphrase. Is it 'things that haven't happened'?

I don’t subscribe at all to the notion we wait for players

Thats a pity, but we do We very clearly did with VVD and Keita, those are the two that there is cast iron evidence for. You can probably then speculate about most of the others, Konate is another who it's pretty well documented we waited for and impacted us spending big in January.

[Gogeqac]

Have you got any links or details on this mate

I do think its an occasion when Klopp felt let down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsFf-HeBQfU
min 12:35

[Jookie]

You said he would rather develop players than roll the dice on unknown quantities or words to that effect. Not true - every transfer is a risk to some extent and Klopp, like any other manager - has revamped this side primarily through recruitment of superior personnel. I don’t subscribe at all to the notion we wait for players - football is a results business and it’s impossible to predict where you’ll be in 3 months time. There are top quality players available in every window as clubs around us continue to prove.

He has also reiterated repeatedly our inability to compete in the market (he did this at Dortmund too, and in January). This is what we know.

As for your questions about whether he’s happy to be complicit in FSG’s inertia - it’s clear he fancies himself to compete with what he has in any scenario. He’s not going to throw toys out of the pram and he still believes in the squad. However - when given the chance to spend, he has done and will do, like any other manager. These attempts to make out he’s some anti-transfer god who prioritises development until there’s no other option but to spend as the very last resort are fanciful.

I said Klopp would rather work with what he's got or develop existing player when a top transfer is not available. He won't compromise if one of the primary targets on the list (not just 1 player) can't be signed. There's other flavours of this though. I don't think we signed another midfielder this summer because we couldn't shift players like Keita and AoC (if we'd wanted too). Same with Origi up top. The market dictates what is possible. As does squad size - i.e. we couldn't just add another player given the current squad size.

Klopp and the club will obviously happily spend money when it's available and a primary transfer target becomes available and is willing to join. We've literally done that on multiple occasions and I suspect we will continue to do so.

I don't think Klopp will make transfers for marginal gains. For example could the club identify someone better than Origi? Of course they could. But I don't think Klopp would necessarily push to get someone in who was 5th choice and just marginally better than Origi. I don't think he sees the value in that and we've hardly made this type of transfer in his tenure.

Other managers do make transfers for marginal gains (or because a player has fried their head out) and I used the Benitez example at right back. If a top transfer target was available this summer (e.g Bowen) I think Klopp would happily sacrifice Origi to get them. In the same way we pushed for Jota when he became available in 2020. Or the same way we bought  Thiago, with the obvious parallel decision not to renew Wijnaldum.

What I'm saying above, and what I've said previously, is a bit disconnected from your interpretation of my comments. Therefore go back and have a proper read of what I'm saying.