Topic: PL: West Ham 3 vs 2 Liverpool Fornals 5’, 67’, Trent 41 Zouma 75’ Origi 83’

[killer-heels]

My guess is that Jurgen rates certain players in our squad much more than some supporters. Not picking a player regularly doesn’t mean he doesn’t rate them per se. It means he thinks there are better options in the squad.

I think Klopp rates having Jones, Milner and AOC as the 5th to 7th options in midfield in his squad. I think that’s to do with quality, versatility and mentality. I think it’s the same with our 5th or 6th choice forward options.

Its obvious this summer that we needed to sell to make room in the squad for any more signings. Klopp even said this recently. I reckon a lot of fans would have binned some of our players this summer even if it meant taking offers well below their asking price (for example 15M for Keita or 5-10M for Origi). I think Klopp and the club would continue working with and developing existing players unless they an get one of their primary targets.

That for me is one of the biggest difference in philosophy of Klopp/club and parts of our fanbase

Klopp is pragmatic though and he will understand the situation. He is a grown up and I can imagine he knows that we invested a lot of money in the likes of Keita and Ox and cant just bin them as quickly as I or any average fan would want and thus will continue to work with them and the situation.

I personally don't think the midfield situation is ideal at all and my opinion is I am not sure Klopp would be either.

[Fitzy.]

I don't. Many on here do...which was the point I was making to be honest

Plan for the season, for this iteration of our midfield. To be able to function consistently that extends beyond hoping Fab/Hendo/Thiago were fit for the whole season...

Imo we have had some great midfield displays like the ones you mention and some bad ones. But what concerns me is seeing some recurring issues that are hurting us which makes me think there is work to do to get the consistency right.

Half expected this going into the season anyway. But as the internet deals in extremes I want to be clear that I dont think everything is going bad (we are actually doing excellent in Europe and pretty good in the league all considered) but I believe there are areas for concern that can get bigger if we dont put a pin in it now is all. That can't be solved organically by players coming back to fitness, I think we'll make some tactical adjustments to solve this too...im not smart enough to know what they would be but we have klopp luckily 

Fair enough

[Jon2lfc]

I haven't visited the WHU ground before so I'm just curious..
Do they have a tradition of belting out 'Twist n Shout' on the tannoy after Home wins/games?

Or were they just winding us up yesterday? i.e. The Beatles being scouse, and them just having beaten a scouse team..

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Are we too blinkered to see that West Ham played well? They were compact, denied is space to play in, broke quickly and played to their strengths, especially corners.

As my old manager used to say after we lost, “you play as well as the other team let you”

Yes, but it's not rocket science and we should have been prepared for this.  Letting them play out to Antonio constantly when they are so, so limited on the ball was inexcusable.  We should have been all over them and better at winning second balls and not giving them a chance to get out.

[FowlerLegend]

Who said he was a long term signing? He was a first team signing, which is what you said we hadn't done.

The injuries to midfield haven't stopped us once from fielding three of our central midfielders, with further options on the bench.

I said we went away from our pre CL winning policy. We didn't buy 29 year old players then, we were buying young, hungry players that would be here for years.
Now they are cash cows. In fact, you could argue that Thiago is a squad player because his injuries mean he cannot be relied on each week - a higher likelihood as players get older and probably why it was avoided previously.
Also, it's not about being able to put 3 players out each week. Consistency of team selection is huge in any successful team. Having 8 players to cover 3 position because a lot of them don't stay fit isn't a great argument is it.

[Nobby Reserve]

Yes, but it's not rocket science and we should have been prepared for this.  Letting them play out to Antonio constantly when they are so, so limited on the ball was inexcusable.  We should have been all over them and better at winning second balls and not giving them a chance to get out.

Exactly.

They had a gameplan that suited them, and their players executed that superbly. But if we'd have been on anything like top form, we'd have overcome that.

A combination of them playing as well as they can, and us (or at least several of our players) being well off.

And yet we still still should have got a draw (poor keeping, some gash finishing)

[Nick110581]

Are we too blinkered to see that West Ham played well? They were compact, denied is space to play in, broke quickly and played to their strengths, especially corners.

As my old manager used to say after we lost, “you play as well as the other team let you”

They didn’t have to play well to win.

[Bobinhood]

Its gonna be a good league. Maybe the best in years.

Don't think anybody's getting 99 points this year.

[rushyman]

The BBC reckon that the 'elbow' from Jota was as bad as the two footed uncontrolled lunge on Hendo

From the BBC:

Both sides were then fortunate not to be reduced to 10 men in a scrappy first half, with Aaron Cresswell catching Jordan Henderson with a heavy challenge before Ogbonna was hit in the face by a stray Diogo Jota elbow that resulted in the West Ham defender having to be substituted.

Hysterical twats

[Mozology]

Are we too blinkered to see that West Ham played well? They were compact, denied is space to play in, broke quickly and played to their strengths, especially corners.

As my old manager used to say after we lost, “you play as well as the other team let you”

Yeah, dropping points away to inform West Ham isn't a huge surprise, was far more angry throwing away a two goal lead to Brighton.

[rushyman]

Are we too blinkered to see that West Ham played well? They were compact, denied is space to play in, broke quickly and played to their strengths, especially corners.

As my old manager used to say after we lost, “you play as well as the other team let you”

I’m trying to figure out posts like this which are numerous now

I haven’t seen one post saying West Ham didn’t play well

It’s quite different to ‘outplaying us’ which they clearly didn’t

[FowlerLegend]

It was not sarcasm. It was not obtuse. I was addressing a falsehood.

It wasn't a falsehood though was it?
5 of the 8 have been here for at least 3 years which in football terms  is ages.
Only Thiago has arrived in the last 18 months.
So, yeah, they have been here ages

[El Lobo]

We have the personel, we don't have the attitude or fight

So we have the personel, but that personel doesn't have the attitude or fight....surely that means we don't have the personel then?

[storkfoot]

I’m trying to figure out posts like this which are numerous now

I haven’t seen one post saying West Ham didn’t play well

It’s quite different to ‘outplaying us’ which they clearly didn’t

There’s 22 pages of posts, a large proportion of which are laying the blame at our inadequacies, not at the opposition playing well.

I didn’t say that they outplayed us. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. I believe they should get some credit for that.

[jckliew]

Suddenly, Arsenal are just two points behind. Strange season.

[Realgman]

Suddenly, Arsenal are just two points behind. Strange season.

yeah its mental TBF

[Realgman]

Are we too blinkered to see that West Ham played well? They were compact, denied is space to play in, broke quickly and played to their strengths, especially corners.

As my old manager used to say after we lost, “you play as well as the other team let you”

I agree with this..
we werent at 100%, but we havent been fairly frequently recently, and who is all the time anyway..
For me, the way West Ham regrouped very well in defence every time, was very good to watch. I thnk they had a great game... they are 3rd for a very good reason..
But we have to do a bit better, stop conceding bad goals obviously...Chelsea although not perfect are very close to being extremely consistant, but maybe later in the season they will have a bad run...

[Kenny's Jacket]

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone who's followed this squad under Jurgen would write us off this early, surely?

I said after Brentford, what a waste of effort that all was 

[rushyman]

There’s 22 pages of posts, a large proportion of which are laying the blame at our inadequacies, not at the opposition playing well.

I didn’t say that they outplayed us. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. I believe they should get some credit for that.

Again, mentioning our inadequacies does not equal West Ham didn’t play well

Most of us want to discuss why we lost and there is huge mistakes made for their goals and the lead ups to their goals

There is a West Ham page in general sport if you want to congratulate West Ham’s performance, which was excellent

[Kenny's Jacket]

There’s 22 pages of posts, a large proportion of which are laying the blame at our inadequacies, not at the opposition playing well.

West Ham did play well, but if Liverpool match West Ham then Liverpool win, but we didnt match them, so its easy to see why its our
inadequacies getting discussed

[Lone Star Red]

So, putting aside the needless tilting at windmills in the opening, let's address some of the points raised.

Firstly, you dismiss spending by pointing to other teams (rather than focussing on Liverpool) and saying that their spending has been unsuccessful. To do so you point, firstly to the PL winners last season and a team currently ahead of Liverpool in the table. And then to Liverpool's biggest rivals, currently managed by a deadman walking. I'm not sure either are a good comparison, but for the sake of argument let's look at the team that beat Liverpool today. They spent £60+m during the summer. That seemed to work for them today, since one of the players they spent money on, Zouma, scored the winner.

You then start talking about Klopp's disdain for transfers. On the one hand it's hard to believe that any modern coach could be so removed from the most important facet of the game, namely player recruitment. But there is also evidence from the past that Klopp's public pronouncements don't always match his private ones. On the Pogba transfer  he once said "Other clubs can go out and spend money and collect top players. I want to do it differently. I would even do it differently if I could spend that money." Then in 2018 he oversaw the expenditure of £200m on players. In other words, he doesn't tell the truth to journos, because tipping his hand would be dumb, and he is not dumb. I can't tell what he thinks, which I think is a good thing, all I can do is say what I see, and what I see is a midfield that is porous and lacking compact, hard-running midfielders, something the best Klopp teams have always had. And that needs to be addressed by spending.

Your next point was that "I maintain it wasn't because he doesn't have the money, it's because he wanted to promote Elliott and Jones. Each for different reasons to give our midfield versatility." Ignoring the fact that Klopp said during the summer money was an issue (for the same reasons outlined above), I have two problems with this point.

1] Klopp's role isn't to prioritise development, it's to prioritise winning. The notion he wouldn't bring in a better player to give youth a chance is fanciful to my mind
2] Neither Jones or Elliott fill the role of a hard-running, hard tackling, all-action midfielder. Both are more attack-minded players, with less defensive responsibilities than a Henderson or a  Fabinho. Neither would be a replacement for Wijnaldum.

You then make a series of pronouncements on Minamino and Origi, two players who have (again) this year hardly been used. Whether Klopp is happy with them, I don't know, I doubt many fans are.

You then finish with the normal superfan guff. Either believe in Klopp or die in a ditch or something, I'm not sure, that was less clear. Something about thought projection. Again, 2 points here and to finish.

1] It's not binary, you can support Klopp and not be happy with performances or players. Not everyone who criticises the team and the manager are traitors.
2] I am a Liverpool supporter, first and foremost. Klopp is a great manager, and I am delighted he is at Liverpool. But being a supporter is not about some sort of blind compulsion to follow who ever is in charge until they are no longer in charge, and then blindly following whoever is next. It's a club, not a cult. Turning valid criticism of the team and transfers into some sort of weird attack on the manager is the mark of a bully. Everytime you invoke Klopp's name to forward your own weird agenda you hide behind the power of his name, wielding it as a weapon in place of actual debate. I am pretty confident Klopp wouldn't be too happy to see people deifying his every word and attacking anyone who disagreed with him.

HOF-worthy post.

[Jm55]

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone who's followed this squad under Jurgen would write us off this early, surely?

The thing is if you look at the timing of those posts it’s fairly easy to see why the people who have posted those views have done so, I’d imagine that over half of them have revised that opinion now that the dust has had time to settle.

People react to bad news in different ways, if you’re the sort who can relax, take it in context and look at the broader picture just moments after a result like that then fair play to you but not everyone is the same, I certainly struggle with that myself which is why I’ve said a few comments which look foolish in hindsight following a poor result (notably after the Barcelona 3-0).

At times (and I’m not accusing you of this) it feels as if people are quick to criticise anyone voicing a reactionary view as some kind of fair weather fan or someone with a lower footballing IQ when it often isn’t the case. Anyone whose ever been to watch us lose a game with a poor performance will know that the murmurs that you hear as you leave the ground is not too dissimilar to what you often see on hear after a bad result, people are disappointed, often they’ve been drinking, people often react badly to disappointment, it’s hardly rocket science.

Of course ideally we’d all take a bit of a step back following a poor result and not immediately jump onto the post-match thread to vent, but then what is probably worth remembering is that a lot of people watch the games alone, have nobody in the house to vent too, are understandably gutted and just need to get it off their chests, at times people could probably do with being a touch more sensitive to that than taking a high and mighty approach of laughing at anyone who says something a bit daft in the heat of the moment, it’s a passionate game which is what we all love about it and it creates passionate responses which manifest themselves in differing ways.

[El Lobo]

Let me explain it to you and those who want to  win the Sky Sports Transfer windows. As though those are the only trophies to go for.

Spend, spend, spend..every time we drop points in come the posts about FSG. It's like clockwork.

Some supporters do nothing but clamour about spending, some even riot about it down the East Lancs.

Speaking of which, pants wetters in here, media, and others were drooling over Man utd's spending. Certainly blew ours out of the water. Sancho, what a talent. We should have been in for him, etc. Varane won everything, solid defender, will organize their back line. Plastic Ronnie, goal machine. City wanted him don'tcha know. Will guarantee goals and don't we hear the whining about we need more up front. Going to challenge City for the League. How'd all that spending go? Behind us in 6th aren't they? Spanked by 0-5.

Speaking of Man City. Money to burn. Sarmiento ( who), Scott Carson ( fabulous signing ), Grealish ( set the world on fire for them so far, right). And we're supposed to be jealous of them. I'm not.

If people haven't worked out that Jurgen doesn't pay attention to the transfer spending race, I can't help them. We buy, Konate, based on where Jurgen need to strengthen. Jurgen knows his squad, trusts his squad, and doesn't buy just to appease the winner of Transfer window wars. Gini left, Jurgen didn't replace him. I maintain it wasn't because he doesn't have the money, it's because he wanted to promote Elliott and Jones. Each for different reasons to give our midfield versatility. He's got Minamino back and likes what he sees, And of course then there's Divock. We're supposed to replace him with someone who scores like plastic Ronnie and is happy to sit on the bench behind our front four. Divock knows his role and is happy enough to fulfill it. But no, God damn it...spend, spend, spend. That's all some know. And it will always be thus for some.

Either you put your faith in Jurgen and that he's happy with the squad as he regularly says. That he will spend on the player he wants that will work in our system.  Or you're more interested in your own projections into what Jurgen must really be thinking. I think we've heard and seen enough of Jurgen to know how honest he is. But maybe not for some.

Excellent post this 4pool

[Lee1-6Liv]

Losing away to top four team isn't too bad, even if it was West Ham. The draw last week at home to Brighton after being two goals up still rankles though.

[Jookie]

Klopp is pragmatic though and he will understand the situation. He is a grown up and I can imagine he knows that we invested a lot of money in the likes of Keita and Ox and cant just bin them as quickly as I or any average fan would want and thus will continue to work with them and the situation.

I personally don't think the midfield situation is ideal at all and my opinion is I am not sure Klopp would be either.

Of course it’s not ideal.

But ‘ideal’ probably wasn't an option in the summer or we’d have taken that opportunity. Ideal would be selling an unwanted player for what we value them at and being able to get a primary target at cost we deem as appropriate. That obviously wasn’t the situation due to the way the market was. We therefore decided to stick rather than twist.


I think my point is that Klopp would rather develop the known quantities he has rather than roll the dice on a transfer that has either a high level of risk and/or marginal gains. He’s different in that regard to Benitez who would bin players who burnt his head out. An example would be how he went through Josemi to Kromkamp to Arbeloa in about 3 seasons as a right back option.

I just don’t see Klopp being that type of manager. If he could of got an obvious and significant upgrade on certain players in the current squad he would have pushed for it.

None of us know what Klopp exactly thinks and he obviously says certain thinks in public that are intended to protect players and/or the club. I saying that there’s literally no evidence (outside of the extraordinary circumstances of last Jan), or even whispers, that Klopp is unhappy with current squad or strategy for recruitment and retention of playing squad.

[rowan_d]

I haven't visited the WHU ground before so I'm just curious..
Do they have a tradition of belting out 'Twist n Shout' on the tannoy after Home wins/games?

Or were they just winding us up yesterday? i.e. The Beatles being scouse, and them just having beaten a scouse team..

It's a standard song of their's I think

[Wullie160975]

With respect, a number of us are not after glamourous signings, we have suggested for the last summer's that we buy players for the long term future that can address weaknesses in the team that become more and more evident each week and are ignored by lots.
It's the ignorant narrative that pushes any fan that says FSG should do more as wanting Mbappe, Haaland etc.
I would be more than happy if we spent £30-40m (or less) on a 22 yr old player that can sit alongside Fabinho, gets no assist all season and allow players like Jones to play in their natural positions higher up the pitch.
You are right you cannot guarantee every player is going to avoid injury but you can look at their availability in the preceding years (Thiago) or look to replace/not rely on them if they are consistently injured after arriving. How many players suddenly become clear if injuries?
And please, I love Milly but I don't see he is still class in midfield. He is ok for cover at right back but not midfield.
In terms of signings, yes we have brought in some squad players, but asides from Konate have we signed anyone that we intended to be a long term first team player? Elliott maybe? The team yesterday had 10 players that were here 3 or more years ago. Buying players that you will know will only ever be squad players is very different to the approach we took prior to winning the CL.

To who? Who would take Ox on the contract he would likely want? Do I think Klopp wants more reliability of availability? Probably. Do I think he's the type to say "well, this is what I've got, lets do the best we can"? Definitely.

[DonkeyWan]

The thing is if you look at the timing of those posts it’s fairly easy to see why the people who have posted those views have done so, I’d imagine that over half of them have revised that opinion now that the dust has had time to settle.

People react to bad news in different ways, if you’re the sort who can relax, take it in context and look at the broader picture just moments after a result like that then fair play to you but not everyone is the same, I certainly struggle with that myself which is why I’ve said a few comments which look foolish in hindsight following a poor result (notably after the Barcelona 3-0).

At times (and I’m not accusing you of this) it feels as if people are quick to criticise anyone voicing a reactionary view as some kind of fair weather fan or someone with a lower footballing IQ when it often isn’t the case. Anyone whose ever been to watch us lose a game with a poor performance will know that the murmurs that you hear as you leave the ground is not too dissimilar to what you often see on hear after a bad result, people are disappointed, often they’ve been drinking, people often react badly to disappointment, it’s hardly rocket science.

Of course ideally we’d all take a bit of a step back following a poor result and not immediately jump onto the post-match thread to vent, but then what is probably worth remembering is that a lot of people watch the games alone, have nobody in the house to vent too, are understandably gutted and just need to get it off their chests, at times people could probably do with being a touch more sensitive to that than taking a high and mighty approach of laughing at anyone who says something a bit daft in the heat of the moment, it’s a passionate game which is what we all love about it and it creates passionate responses which manifest themselves in differing ways.

This absolutely true, and I also understand that the posters that emerge to berate others for not believing are being fans in their own way, subsuming their own angst within a more robust and aggressive posture, deflecting their own concerns by attacking those they percieve as threatening their own firmly held beliefs that all will be well as long as they remain optimistic and faithful. That is their coping mechanism, smite the non-believer before they spread doubt and undermine the whole system. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

[El Lobo]

Doubters and believers

[rushyman]

People with suspiciously low posts in here when we lose with their painfully ‘objective’ posts that are miles off and completely see through

Dont ever wish I was a mod in here their job is like putting out fire with petrol

But on rare occasions I Wish I was for 30 mins

[So Howard Philips]

People with suspiciously low posts in here when we lose with their painfully ‘objective’ posts that are miles off and completely see through

Dont ever wish I was a mod in here their job is like putting out fire with petrol

But on rare occasions I Wish I was for 30 mins

Or those who haven't posted since our last defeat and can't wait to come on and whinge. And then head back to Redcafe.

[tubby]

Some top quality paranoia in this thread.

[Elzar]

Some top quality paranoia in this thread.

Are you talking about me?!

[Sharado]

Some top quality paranoia in this thread.

That's what they want you to think.

[killer-heels]

I think my point is that Klopp would rather develop the known quantities he has rather than roll the dice on a transfer that has either a high level of risk and/or marginal gains. He’s different in that regard to Benitez who would bin players who burnt his head out. An example would be how he went through Josemi to Kromkamp to Arbeloa in about 3 seasons as a right back option.

I just don’t see Klopp being that type of manager. If he could of got an obvious and significant upgrade on certain players in the current squad he would have pushed for it.

See I don't fully agree with that. Its an unknown ultimately and Klopp is a pragmatist in that he is happy to work with what he has. I don't agree with the claim that he would rather develop than sign players in all cases. Literally a lot of our success has been as a result of signing players.

[rushyman]

Or those who haven't posted since our last defeat and can't wait to come on and whinge. And then head back to Redcafe.

Those LFC fan regulars on redcafe are a fucking disgrace

Stay in there slagging us off to mancs. I don’t know if you can get a worse supporter than that

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

The thing is if you look at the timing of those posts it’s fairly easy to see why the people who have posted those views have done so, I’d imagine that over half of them have revised that opinion now that the dust has had time to settle.

People react to bad news in different ways, if you’re the sort who can relax, take it in context and look at the broader picture just moments after a result like that then fair play to you but not everyone is the same, I certainly struggle with that myself which is why I’ve said a few comments which look foolish in hindsight following a poor result (notably after the Barcelona 3-0).

At times (and I’m not accusing you of this) it feels as if people are quick to criticise anyone voicing a reactionary view as some kind of fair weather fan or someone with a lower footballing IQ when it often isn’t the case. Anyone whose ever been to watch us lose a game with a poor performance will know that the murmurs that you hear as you leave the ground is not too dissimilar to what you often see on hear after a bad result, people are disappointed, often they’ve been drinking, people often react badly to disappointment, it’s hardly rocket science.

Of course ideally we’d all take a bit of a step back following a poor result and not immediately jump onto the post-match thread to vent, but then what is probably worth remembering is that a lot of people watch the games alone, have nobody in the house to vent too, are understandably gutted and just need to get it off their chests, at times people could probably do with being a touch more sensitive to that than taking a high and mighty approach of laughing at anyone who says something a bit daft in the heat of the moment, it’s a passionate game which is what we all love about it and it creates passionate responses which manifest themselves in differing ways.

Very well said.

Describes me to a tee. I'll be grumpy about this result for at least a week, probably more as I'm still annoyed about the Brighton game.

[Mozology]

This absolutely true, and I also understand that the posters that emerge to berate others for not believing are being fans in their own way, subsuming their own angst within a more robust and aggressive posture, deflecting their own concerns by attacking those they percieve as threatening their own firmly held beliefs that all will be well as long as they remain optimistic and faithful. That is their coping mechanism, smite the non-believer before they spread doubt and undermine the whole system. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

Never thought about it like that before, you might be on to something there.

[rushyman]

Are you talking about me?!

Nope, me

As if I’ve not seen that go on in here since 2004 😂

It’s absolutely rife. Some are just better at it than others

[Mozology]

Very well said.

Describes me to a tee. I'll be grumpy about this result for at least a week, probably more as I'm still annoyed about the Brighton game.

Agreed

The realisation that a more normal points tally probably wins the league this season makes the last two results all the more depressing. If it was some insane 99 or 100 points standard then I'd just shrug and accept we aren't winning the league this year.