Author Topic: Space exploration thread - Unexpected Rapid Disassembly in the launch area.  (Read 314612 times)

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1560 on: January 11, 2016, 11:16:06 pm »
There has been some unusual excitement about a new type rocket engine that doesn't yet have a prototype. But that will change soon, NASA awarded the company a grant to reach at least TRL 5.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/06/vasimr-rocket-mars_n_7009118.html

Of course, much of the hype may be as unrealistic as the goal... The concept has been challenged by Zubrin.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2014/06/26/zubrin-challenges-chang-diaz-debate-mars-exploration-vasimr-engine/
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1561 on: January 12, 2016, 10:47:29 am »
There has been some unusual excitement about a new type rocket engine that doesn't yet have a prototype. But that will change soon, NASA awarded the company a grant to reach at least TRL 5.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/06/vasimr-rocket-mars_n_7009118.html

Of course, much of the hype may be as unrealistic as the goal... The concept has been challenged by Zubrin.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2014/06/26/zubrin-challenges-chang-diaz-debate-mars-exploration-vasimr-engine/

Interesting.  I'd have to ask though, does that strictly meet the definition of a rocket?  A rocket ignites, propels and is then discarded.  This is more an actual sub-space-drive; a bona-fide space propulsion system if you will.

How big would a drive like this have to be?  It seems ideal for outer solar system space probes.  I can even envisage a situation where the drive could take a probe to, say, Neptune, and then return to Earth.  A reusable drive that could transport multiple probes all over the solar system could be a very cost effective test of the technology, assuming early models would be rather big and bulky.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1562 on: January 14, 2016, 08:11:04 pm »
Holy....

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1563 on: January 14, 2016, 08:40:29 pm »
My Twitter

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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1564 on: January 15, 2016, 03:30:28 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/science-environment-35303186

Tim Peake performing his first space walk today

The first British badged astronaut to perform a spacewalk

Michael Foale became the first Briton to carry out a spacewalk in 1995 but flew under a US NASA badge

Offline Groundskeeper Willie

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1565 on: January 16, 2016, 04:27:55 pm »
If you use a PC, get Stellarium (see the excitement it generates in the last post on the previous page). You can also get an app for a phone (there is one "Planets" for iPhone), which shows you stars and planets wherever you are. I use it also to plan when I go out for night photography - you  can turn off the automatic time and date and dial manually the time you want to go out. It tells the position of the major bodies, so I know how to set the camera.

Enjoy the telescope, mate! 

I have Stellarium but haven't quite figured out how it works. Haven't used it much yet. I have a few apps I use, mainly one called SkyView. It's very good and helps me a lot.
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Offline Groundskeeper Willie

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1566 on: January 16, 2016, 04:29:41 pm »
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1567 on: January 16, 2016, 04:57:56 pm »
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1568 on: January 16, 2016, 05:10:36 pm »
I have Stellarium but haven't quite figured out how it works. Haven't used it much yet. I have a few apps I use, mainly one called SkyView. It's very good and helps me a lot.

it's pretty simple to use, on pc/laptop just press f6 to bring up the location menu and set your location, the main window will then show a live view but you can use the fast forward/rewind buttons or the date/time settings (f5) to manipulate time, great for planning if there's something specific you want to look at, pressing a or clicking the cloud/star icon on the bottom menu removes the atmosphere so you can see everything in the sky even during daylight

Offline Groundskeeper Willie

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1569 on: January 16, 2016, 05:12:40 pm »
Cheers.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1570 on: January 16, 2016, 05:30:42 pm »
Great piece of software that. Just need to get a telescope at some point..:(
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Offline Groundskeeper Willie

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1571 on: January 16, 2016, 05:33:37 pm »
Great piece of software that. Just need to get a telescope at some point..:(

 ;D
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Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1572 on: January 16, 2016, 06:53:08 pm »
Interesting.  I'd have to ask though, does that strictly meet the definition of a rocket?  A rocket ignites, propels and is then discarded.  This is more an actual sub-space-drive; a bona-fide space propulsion system if you will.

How big would a drive like this have to be?  It seems ideal for outer solar system space probes.  I can even envisage a situation where the drive could take a probe to, say, Neptune, and then return to Earth.  A reusable drive that could transport multiple probes all over the solar system could be a very cost effective test of the technology, assuming early models would be rather big and bulky.
Just saw your post. From what I gather, the initial development is for an engine of a height of a man for use in the space s
station. But for interplanetary mission it will scale with the tank; I can imagine it really big, like Space Odyssey stuff. :)

Ah, wouldn't it be something if we could create a bus system for the outer planets...
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1573 on: January 16, 2016, 10:57:34 pm »

Ah, wouldn't it be something if we could create a bus system for the outer planets...

Indeed yes.  Or not so much a bus as a ferry. ;)

Seriously though, a machine that could cart a probe to Neptune and return to Earth in a round trip of about five years, before then taking another probe to Jupiter, would be incredible. 

In fact, would it even be possible to design, build and test probes within such timescales?  It took the New Horizons team at least three years to build the probe - not including the design phase.  Could lead to a whole new approach in probe construction when you're on that kind of schedule as the launch windows come by much quicker.  But possibly also much more frequently.

This folds back into what we talked about before on future mission targets.  To study worlds like Uranus, Neptune and Pluto effectively you need a probe with a design lifetime of about fifty years.  No probe sent into space has ever been designed with that kind of longevity in mind.  The fact the Voyagers are now almost 39 years old is very much down to good fortune as much as anything else; even though they were built with the harsh Jovian environment in mind I'm sure nobody expected them to last this long.

The last thing you want to do with a probe with a fifty year lifespan is to waste 15 years just getting to the target.  A space ferry not only reduces cruise time but will allow the probe to carry sufficient  propellant to stay in orbit long enough to closely observe an object that will, by nature of its distance from the Sun, change only very slowly over time.  Hell, you might even be able to use a ferry like this to refuel the probe to make maximum use of its RTG.

It sucks that an otherwise perfectly healthy Cassini probe will soon have to be destroyed because it's out of manoeuvring fuel. :/
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1574 on: January 17, 2016, 02:05:09 am »
For those of us who'd love to just try and explore the galaxy, download and play elite dangerous, i've recently bought it and apart from bounty hunting, i've been overawed by just exploring and seeing the galaxy.

Great way to get lost forma few hours.

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1575 on: January 17, 2016, 02:44:29 am »
snip...

It sucks that an otherwise perfectly healthy Cassini probe will soon have to be destroyed because it's out of manoeuvring fuel. :/
Regarding the post in full, yeah, I'm with you on that. I also think that we would learn far more about the Jovian radiation environments by sending a bus/ferry simply because it returns and we'd have the chance to examine the evidence. Most of the failure analysis we do is based on scarce telemetry evidence, which after being exhausted and scrutinized to eternity, we eventually we satisfy ourselves that we understand the anomaly. But once or twice (or more...) we've been bitten by the confidence bug... A return probe will provide the missing verification and we would design better.

As for Cassini, I'm not sure what the story is. My understanding is that they have enough fuel to go back to Jupiter (it's been proposed), so they are not that low on fuel. But planetary protection folks worry about crashing in one on the interesting planets if we continue too long. The odds of me winning the lottery are probably much better, but hey-ho. I speculate that this may change in the next few months though. We lost SMAP, postponed InSight, and Spirit and Opportunity are almost dead. These mission operation budgets combine to a significant amount, and maybe they will fund another year on Cassini. But someone has to pay for the InSight delay, so... I don't know. It's also defficult to get a Congress approval, because every mission is a separate budget line in congress and gets approved separately; the agency cannot cross money from this pocket to the other.
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Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1576 on: January 17, 2016, 04:18:55 pm »
If anyone wants to watch the Jason 3 launch out of Vandenberg AFB, here is the link:
http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html

I don't know if SpaceX will show the landing of the rocket on the ship. Probably not, it may blow up...

EDIT:
Livestream is better:
http://livestream.com/spacex/events/4695903
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 06:49:17 pm by farawayred »
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1577 on: January 17, 2016, 07:11:04 pm »
So they landed it on their ship, but broke something so it's not stood upright. Saying the footage of the landing will be a few hours away. Main mission going as planned however.

edit: seeing a pic of the barge just reminded me of Iain Banks, and gave me a wee smile.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 07:13:39 pm by Zeb »
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Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1578 on: January 17, 2016, 07:24:38 pm »
So they landed it on their ship, but broke something so it's not stood upright. Saying the footage of the landing will be a few hours away. Main mission going as planned however.

The cynic in me thinks that the loss of connection was all planned... SpaceX made two unsuccessful attempts of that landing, one (short on fuel) resulting in a crash, the other in an explosion. Not to take anything away, that is an incredibly difficult task - landing a moving rocket on a moving target with GPS and gyros, all turbulence and wave uncertainty included. But it's a failure nonetheless, and their business model depends on that. They got beaten to the launch and landing by another company, which used a small rocket that was borderline cheating (for not going to the space limit). Cheating or not, SpaceX got beaten to the punch. So they made their first successful attempt in Florida a month ago. But that was landing on land, not on a moving ship. That successful landing convinced NASA to go ahead with today's launch, so it did its job.

With all this in mind, SpaceX can't really afford bad publicity, or to be outran by another competitor. So, they did the expected - downplayed enormously the significance of the landing on the drone ship, stressed that the ship is unmanned, etc., did everything to play down public fears. While they are technically correct, they badly need the landing to work.

Before the launch I told my wife that they won't show the landing (see above post too) and was surprised when they had a live video, but then they lost connection... It's more natural this way, they are not hiding anything... (I turned into a conspiracy theorist)
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1579 on: January 17, 2016, 07:47:16 pm »
I don't think one can help but have a suspicion there was no intention to show live footage. Their explanation for it (eg 'we want to have footage from planes too') is nonsense. Thanks for the background to that. Did see the successful landing done not so long back. Still have mixed feelings about the viability of these commercial attempts personally.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1580 on: January 17, 2016, 07:52:06 pm »
Plasma rockets will make round trips to Mars -  in less than six months - within the next decade.

Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1581 on: January 17, 2016, 09:09:16 pm »
Looks like the first stage broke a leg...

http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/17/technology/spacex-launch/

SpaceX's latest attempt to land a rocket upright on a platform in the Pacific Ocean failed on Sunday.

The unmanned mission, powered by a SpaceX rocket, accomplished its primary goal of carrying a satellite into low orbit.

But its secondary goal -- to land the rocket upright on a floating platform called a droneship -- did not go as planned.

"First stage on target at droneship but looks like hard landing; broke landing leg," SpaceX tweeted.

SpaceX did not immediately elaborate on what happened. On a webcast, the company had said that the ocean waves were choppy.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1582 on: January 18, 2016, 01:37:19 pm »
Like how the 'blew up afterwards' part got forgotten in the 'it broke a leg' statements :D
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1583 on: January 18, 2016, 06:04:20 pm »
Like how the 'blew up afterwards' part got forgotten in the 'it broke a leg' statements :D

I wondered about that.  Kept thinking to myself "Okay, yeah, so it broke a leg and that constitutes a failure but a leg is easily fixed, right?"  I just had the impression that it was tilted wonky on the landing pad, but it went boom boom.  ;D
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Offline farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1584 on: January 18, 2016, 07:24:50 pm »
Ha! I just saw the video from the rocket landing failure on TV. The initial explanation is that one leg didn't latch probably due to moisture. I'm not sure I agree though, from the few available seconds it seemed like a classic case of metal buckling. The good news is that can be easily engineered to withstand the forces.

Buckling also makes sense - can the difference between landing on land or a moving ship.

I'm willing to put money now that their next landing will be successful.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35340734
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 09:16:47 pm by farawayred »
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1585 on: January 20, 2016, 11:15:54 am »



Artist's logarithmic scale conception of the observable universe with the Solar System at the center, inner and outer planets, Kuiper belt, Oort cloud, Alpha Centauri, Perseus Arm, Milky Way galaxy, Andromeda galaxy, nearby galaxies, Cosmic Web, Cosmic microwave radiation and Big Bang's invisible plasma on the edge.


By Pablo Carlos Budassi
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1586 on: January 20, 2016, 11:33:47 am »

Interesting. It resembles the sort of thing an early 70's prog rock group like Curved Air would use for a side of a picture disc LP.
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Offline Groundskeeper Willie

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1587 on: January 20, 2016, 11:45:28 am »



Artist's logarithmic scale conception of the observable universe with the Solar System at the center, inner and outer planets, Kuiper belt, Oort cloud, Alpha Centauri, Perseus Arm, Milky Way galaxy, Andromeda galaxy, nearby galaxies, Cosmic Web, Cosmic microwave radiation and Big Bang's invisible plasma on the edge.


By Pablo Carlos Budassi

That's stunning.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1588 on: January 20, 2016, 12:00:56 pm »
STUDY CONFIRMS THAT SOMETHING'S WEIRD ABOUT THE 'ALIEN MEGASTRUCTURE' STAR
THE MYSTERY AROUND KIC 8462852 PROBABLY ISN'T ALIENS, BUT MIGHT NOT BE COMETS EITHER

http://www.popsci.com/study-confirms-that-alien-megastructure-star-is-weird

Could the weird light blips coming from this star be caused by a family of comets or collision debris?

Astronomers really want to know what's happening around a star that's 1,480 light-years away.

In October, astronomers floated the idea that the star KIC 8462852 could be surrounded by some sort of huge alien structure. While that's unlikely, scientists are still having a hard time coming up with a good explanation for the star's strange behavior.

Every so often, the star's light dims by as much as 20 percent. By comparison, a huge, Jupiter-size planet orbitiing the star would block out about 1 percent of the star's light. Astronomer Jason Wright proposed that a swarm of objects, perhaps alien solar panels, could be circling the star and causing the dimming. Scientists have since listened for radio and laser communications from this hypothetical alien civilization, but found nothing.

Up until now, the leading hypothesis was that a family of comets circles the star, occasionally clumping together to block out huge portions of its light. A new paper, published on the arXiv, says that this explanation is unlikely as well.
You would need 648,000 giant comets to explain the star's dimming pattern.

Within the paper (which hasn't been peer-reviewed yet), astronomer Bradley Shaefer from Louisiana State University describes his deep dive into Harvard's historical astronomy plates. After looking at 1,232 photographic plates from the past century, he found that the star not only dims dramatically over short periods of time today, but also that the star has been growing dimmer over time. These two very strange phenomena are probably linked.

In the past century or so, the star's brightness has dipped by 16.5 to 19.3 percent. This trend is "completely unprecedented" for a star of this type, Schaefer writes. "Such stars should be very stable in brightness, with evolution making for changes only on time scales of many millions of years."

He goes on to calculate how many comets would be needed to explain the phenomena, and the answer is: a whole heck of a lot.
Previously, scientists estimated that it would require 36 giant comets to explain the occasional 20 percent dip in light from the star.

To explain the century-long fading, Shaefer calculates you'd need 648,000 comets with a diameter of 200 kilometers (124 miles) each.

By comparison, the largest known comet in our solar system is 60km in diameter. And the hypothetical comets around KIC 8462852 would need to have a total mass that's four times the mass of everything in the Kuiper belt.

"I do not see how it is possible for something like 648,000 giant comets to exist around one star, nor to have their orbits orchestrated so as to all pass in front of the star within the last century," Shaefer writes. "So I take this century-long dimming as a strong argument against the comet-family hypothesis to explain the Kepler dips."

While Schaefer doesn't offer an alternative theory, his analysis provides a second line of data suggesting there really is something weird happening around KIC 8462852--that it's not just a fluke of the Kepler telescope that discovered the star's odd behavior.

Just because science doesn’t yet have an explanation for what's happening at KIC 8462852 doesn't mean it's aliens. Most major discoveries don't have an obvious explanation at first. But whatever is happening on this faraway star, it's sure to be something interesting.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1589 on: January 20, 2016, 12:09:38 pm »
That's stunning.
Interesting. It resembles the sort of thing an early 70's prog rock group like Curved Air would use for a side of a picture disc LP.
The great thing about that picture, is that that is the view from every place in the universe. You would see the same thing.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1590 on: January 20, 2016, 05:07:48 pm »
STUDY CONFIRMS THAT SOMETHING'S WEIRD ABOUT THE 'ALIEN MEGASTRUCTURE' STAR
THE MYSTERY AROUND KIC 8462852 PROBABLY ISN'T ALIENS, BUT MIGHT NOT BE COMETS EITHER

http://www.popsci.com/study-confirms-that-alien-megastructure-star-is-weird

Could the weird light blips coming from this star be caused by a family of comets or collision debris?

Astronomers really want to know what's happening around a star that's 1,480 light-years away.

In October, astronomers floated the idea that the star KIC 8462852 could be surrounded by some sort of huge alien structure. While that's unlikely, scientists are still having a hard time coming up with a good explanation for the star's strange behavior.

Every so often, the star's light dims by as much as 20 percent. By comparison, a huge, Jupiter-size planet orbitiing the star would block out about 1 percent of the star's light. Astronomer Jason Wright proposed that a swarm of objects, perhaps alien solar panels, could be circling the star and causing the dimming. Scientists have since listened for radio and laser communications from this hypothetical alien civilization, but found nothing.

Up until now, the leading hypothesis was that a family of comets circles the star, occasionally clumping together to block out huge portions of its light. A new paper, published on the arXiv, says that this explanation is unlikely as well.
You would need 648,000 giant comets to explain the star's dimming pattern.

Within the paper (which hasn't been peer-reviewed yet), astronomer Bradley Shaefer from Louisiana State University describes his deep dive into Harvard's historical astronomy plates. After looking at 1,232 photographic plates from the past century, he found that the star not only dims dramatically over short periods of time today, but also that the star has been growing dimmer over time. These two very strange phenomena are probably linked.

In the past century or so, the star's brightness has dipped by 16.5 to 19.3 percent. This trend is "completely unprecedented" for a star of this type, Schaefer writes. "Such stars should be very stable in brightness, with evolution making for changes only on time scales of many millions of years."

He goes on to calculate how many comets would be needed to explain the phenomena, and the answer is: a whole heck of a lot.
Previously, scientists estimated that it would require 36 giant comets to explain the occasional 20 percent dip in light from the star.

To explain the century-long fading, Shaefer calculates you'd need 648,000 comets with a diameter of 200 kilometers (124 miles) each.

By comparison, the largest known comet in our solar system is 60km in diameter. And the hypothetical comets around KIC 8462852 would need to have a total mass that's four times the mass of everything in the Kuiper belt.

"I do not see how it is possible for something like 648,000 giant comets to exist around one star, nor to have their orbits orchestrated so as to all pass in front of the star within the last century," Shaefer writes. "So I take this century-long dimming as a strong argument against the comet-family hypothesis to explain the Kepler dips."

While Schaefer doesn't offer an alternative theory, his analysis provides a second line of data suggesting there really is something weird happening around KIC 8462852--that it's not just a fluke of the Kepler telescope that discovered the star's odd behavior.

Just because science doesn’t yet have an explanation for what's happening at KIC 8462852 doesn't mean it's aliens. Most major discoveries don't have an obvious explanation at first. But whatever is happening on this faraway star, it's sure to be something interesting.

fuckin knew it wasn't comets, nailed on aliens for me now

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1591 on: January 20, 2016, 06:56:35 pm »
Any Planet X theories this year yet? If not, may as well get it started: http://www.iflscience.com/possible-ninth-planet-solar-system-discovered

Quote
In their paper, Brown and Batygin say there is only a 0.007 percent chance that the observed clustering of Kuiper Belt Objects (KBOs) is “due to chance,” suggesting another origin. “We find that the observed orbital alignment can be maintained by a distant eccentric planet with mass [greater than 10 Earths],” they wrote. The planet could also explain the elliptical orbits of dwarf planets like Sedna.

Those orbits are mad as hats, but surely other explanations which work too?
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1592 on: January 20, 2016, 07:45:31 pm »
Just seen that "Ninth Planet" report.  I thought somebody was pulling an early April Fool's prank.

http://www.caltech.edu/news/caltech-researchers-find-evidence-real-ninth-planet-49523

Caltech researchers have found evidence of a giant planet tracing a bizarre, highly elongated orbit in the outer solar system. The object, which the researchers have nicknamed Planet Nine, has a mass about 10 times that of Earth and orbits about 20 times farther from the sun on average than does Neptune (which orbits the sun at an average distance of 2.8 billion miles). In fact, it would take this new planet between 10,000 and 20,000 years to make just one full orbit around the sun.

The researchers, Konstantin Batygin and Mike Brown, discovered the planet's existence through mathematical modeling and computer simulations but have not yet observed the object directly.

"This would be a real ninth planet," says Brown, the Richard and Barbara Rosenberg Professor of Planetary Astronomy. "There have only been two true planets discovered since ancient times, and this would be a third. It's a pretty substantial chunk of our solar system that's still out there to be found, which is pretty exciting."

Brown notes that the putative ninth planet—at 5,000 times the mass of Pluto—is sufficiently large that there should be no debate about whether it is a true planet. Unlike the class of smaller objects now known as dwarf planets, Planet Nine gravitationally dominates its neighborhood of the solar system. In fact, it dominates a region larger than any of the other known planets—a fact that Brown says makes it "the most planet-y of the planets in the whole solar system."

Batygin and Brown describe their work in the current issue of the Astronomical Journal and show how Planet Nine helps explain a number of mysterious features of the field of icy objects and debris beyond Neptune known as the Kuiper Belt.

"Although we were initially quite skeptical that this planet could exist, as we continued to investigate its orbit and what it would mean for the outer solar system, we become increasingly convinced that it is out there," says Batygin, an assistant professor of planetary science. "For the first time in over 150 years, there is solid evidence that the solar system's planetary census is incomplete."

The road to the theoretical discovery was not straightforward. In 2014, a former postdoc of Brown's, Chad Trujillo, and his colleague Scott Sheppard published a paper noting that 13 of the most distant objects in the Kuiper Belt are similar with respect to an obscure orbital feature. To explain that similarity, they suggested the possible presence of a small planet. Brown thought the planet solution was unlikely, but his interest was piqued.

He took the problem down the hall to Batygin, and the two started what became a year-and-a-half-long collaboration to investigate the distant objects. As an observer and a theorist, respectively, the researchers approached the work from very different perspectives—Brown as someone who looks at the sky and tries to anchor everything in the context of what can be seen, and Batygin as someone who puts himself within the context of dynamics, considering how things might work from a physics standpoint. Those differences allowed the researchers to challenge each other's ideas and to consider new possibilities. "I would bring in some of these observational aspects; he would come back with arguments from theory, and we would push each other. I don't think the discovery would have happened without that back and forth," says Brown. " It was perhaps the most fun year of working on a problem in the solar system that I've ever had."

Fairly quickly Batygin and Brown realized that the six most distant objects from Trujillo and Shepherd's original collection all follow elliptical orbits that point in the same direction in physical space. That is particularly surprising because the outermost points of their orbits move around the solar system, and they travel at different rates.

"It's almost like having six hands on a clock all moving at different rates, and when you happen to look up, they're all in exactly the same place," says Brown. The odds of having that happen are something like 1 in 100, he says. But on top of that, the orbits of the six objects are also all tilted in the same way—pointing about 30 degrees downward in the same direction relative to the plane of the eight known planets. The probability of that happening is about 0.007 percent. "Basically it shouldn't happen randomly," Brown says. "So we thought something else must be shaping these orbits."

The first possibility they investigated was that perhaps there are enough distant Kuiper Belt objects—some of which have not yet been discovered—to exert the gravity needed to keep that subpopulation clustered together. The researchers quickly ruled this out when it turned out that such a scenario would require the Kuiper Belt to have about 100 times the mass it has today.

That left them with the idea of a planet. Their first instinct was to run simulations involving a planet in a distant orbit that encircled the orbits of the six Kuiper Belt objects, acting like a giant lasso to wrangle them into their alignment. Batygin says that almost works but does not provide the observed eccentricities precisely. "Close, but no cigar," he says.

Then, effectively by accident, Batygin and Brown noticed that if they ran their simulations with a massive planet in an anti-aligned orbit—an orbit in which the planet's closest approach to the sun, or perihelion, is 180 degrees across from the perihelion of all the other objects and known planets—the distant Kuiper Belt objects in the simulation assumed the alignment that is actually observed.

"Your natural response is 'This orbital geometry can't be right. This can't be stable over the long term because, after all, this would cause the planet and these objects to meet and eventually collide,'" says Batygin. But through a mechanism known as mean-motion resonance, the anti-aligned orbit of the ninth planet actually prevents the Kuiper Belt objects from colliding with it and keeps them aligned. As orbiting objects approach each other they exchange energy. So, for example, for every four orbits Planet Nine makes, a distant Kuiper Belt object might complete nine orbits. They never collide. Instead, like a parent maintaining the arc of a child on a swing with periodic pushes, Planet Nine nudges the orbits of distant Kuiper Belt objects such that their configuration with relation to the planet is preserved.

"Still, I was very skeptical," says Batygin. "I had never seen anything like this in celestial mechanics."

But little by little, as the researchers investigated additional features and consequences of the model, they became persuaded. "A good theory should not only explain things that you set out to explain. It should hopefully explain things that you didn't set out to explain and make predictions that are testable," says Batygin.

And indeed Planet Nine's existence helps explain more than just the alignment of the distant Kuiper Belt objects. It also provides an explanation for the mysterious orbits that two of them trace. The first of those objects, dubbed Sedna, was discovered by Brown in 2003. Unlike standard-variety Kuiper Belt objects, which get gravitationally "kicked out" by Neptune and then return back to it, Sedna never gets very close to Neptune. A second object like Sedna, known as 2012 VP113, was announced by Trujillo and Shepherd in 2014. Batygin and Brown found that the presence of Planet Nine in its proposed orbit naturally produces Sedna-like objects by taking a standard Kuiper Belt object and slowly pulling it away into an orbit less connected to Neptune.

But the real kicker for the researchers was the fact that their simulations also predicted that there would be objects in the Kuiper Belt on orbits inclined perpendicularly to the plane of the planets. Batygin kept finding evidence for these in his simulations and took them to Brown. "Suddenly I realized there are objects like that," recalls Brown. In the last three years, observers have identified four objects tracing orbits roughly along one perpendicular line from Neptune and one object along another. "We plotted up the positions of those objects and their orbits, and they matched the simulations exactly," says Brown. "When we found that, my jaw sort of hit the floor."

"When the simulation aligned the distant Kuiper Belt objects and created objects like Sedna, we thought this is kind of awesome—you kill two birds with one stone," says Batygin. "But with the existence of the planet also explaining these perpendicular orbits, not only do you kill two birds, you also take down a bird that you didn't realize was sitting in a nearby tree."

Where did Planet Nine come from and how did it end up in the outer solar system? Scientists have long believed that the early solar system began with four planetary cores that went on to grab all of the gas around them, forming the four gas planets—Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. Over time, collisions and ejections shaped them and moved them out to their present locations. "But there is no reason that there could not have been five cores, rather than four," says Brown. Planet Nine could represent that fifth core, and if it got too close to Jupiter or Saturn, it could have been ejected into its distant, eccentric orbit.

Batygin and Brown continue to refine their simulations and learn more about the planet's orbit and its influence on the distant solar system. Meanwhile, Brown and other colleagues have begun searching the skies for Planet Nine. Only the planet's rough orbit is known, not the precise location of the planet on that elliptical path. If the planet happens to be close to its perihelion, Brown says, astronomers should be able to spot it in images captured by previous surveys. If it is in the most distant part of its orbit, the world's largest telescopes—such as the twin 10-meter telescopes at the W. M. Keck Observatory and the Subaru Telescope, all on Mauna Kea in Hawaii—will be needed to see it. If, however, Planet Nine is now located anywhere in between, many telescopes have a shot at finding it.

"I would love to find it," says Brown. "But I'd also be perfectly happy if someone else found it. That is why we're publishing this paper. We hope that other people are going to get inspired and start searching."

In terms of understanding more about the solar system's context in the rest of the universe, Batygin says that in a couple of ways, this ninth planet that seems like such an oddball to us would actually make our solar system more similar to the other planetary systems that astronomers are finding around other stars. First, most of the planets around other sunlike stars have no single orbital range—that is, some orbit extremely close to their host stars while others follow exceptionally distant orbits. Second, the most common planets around other stars range between 1 and 10 Earth-masses.

"One of the most startling discoveries about other planetary systems has been that the most common type of planet out there has a mass between that of Earth and that of Neptune," says Batygin. "Until now, we've thought that the solar system was lacking in this most common type of planet. Maybe we're more normal after all."

Brown, well known for the significant role he played in the demotion of Pluto from a planet to a dwarf planet adds, "All those people who are mad that Pluto is no longer a planet can be thrilled to know that there is a real planet out there still to be found," he says. "Now we can go and find this planet and make the solar system have nine planets once again."

The paper is titled "Evidence for a Distant Giant Planet in the Solar System."
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1593 on: January 21, 2016, 08:29:00 pm »
Here's a video that helps visualise the alleged Planet Nine's location and orbit in relation to the rest of the solar system and the KBOs it may have perturbed.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/jy6JcViPkWg&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/jy6JcViPkWg&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 08:37:07 pm by Red Beret »
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1594 on: January 22, 2016, 05:01:50 pm »
Haven't the conspiracy community been banging on about the extra planet for years? what is it called...Nibru or something?

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1595 on: January 22, 2016, 07:38:07 pm »
Haven't the conspiracy community been banging on about the extra planet for years? what is it called...Nibru or something?
Nibiru. It's all real and it came from a reliable source - Zeta Reticuli (per Wiki):

The idea was first put forward in 1995 by Nancy Lieder, founder of the website ZetaTalk. Lieder describes herself as a contactee with the ability to receive messages from extraterrestrials from the Zeta Reticuli star system through an implant in her brain. She states that she was chosen to warn mankind that the object would sweep through the inner Solar System in May 2003 (though that date was later postponed) causing Earth to undergo a physical pole shift that would destroy most of humanity. The prediction has subsequently spread beyond Lieder's website and has been embraced by numerous Internet doomsday groups, most of which linked the event to the 2012 phenomenon. The name "Nibiru" is derived from the works of the ancient astronaut writer Zecharia Sitchin and his interpretations of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology; he denied any connection between his work and various claims of a coming apocalypse.[/i]
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1596 on: January 22, 2016, 08:10:53 pm »
Nibiru. It's all real and it came from a reliable source - Zeta Reticuli (per Wiki):

The idea was first put forward in 1995 by Nancy Lieder, founder of the website ZetaTalk. Lieder describes herself as a contactee with the ability to receive messages from extraterrestrials from the Zeta Reticuli star system through an implant in her brain. She states that she was chosen to warn mankind that the object would sweep through the inner Solar System in May 2003 (though that date was later postponed) causing Earth to undergo a physical pole shift that would destroy most of humanity. The prediction has subsequently spread beyond Lieder's website and has been embraced by numerous Internet doomsday groups, most of which linked the event to the 2012 phenomenon. The name "Nibiru" is derived from the works of the ancient astronaut writer Zecharia Sitchin and his interpretations of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology; he denied any connection between his work and various claims of a coming apocalypse.[/i]

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1597 on: January 22, 2016, 08:23:49 pm »
Just came across a picture of Tim Peake during a space walk:

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1598 on: January 22, 2016, 08:55:31 pm »
Damned selfies  ;D
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1599 on: January 23, 2016, 10:11:04 pm »
Just came across a picture of Tim Peake during a space walk:



What in the flying is that in the background? Above his shoulder. Have you photoshopped it???
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