Author Topic: Ballymurphy shoootings  (Read 3292 times)

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Ballymurphy shoootings
« on: June 27, 2014, 09:44:00 am »
Shocking. May  well be history but not for the families I'd guess it feels like  yesterday still.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/26/-sp-ballymurphy-shootings-36-hours-west-belfast-northern-ireland-10-dead



A mural commemorating the 1971 shootings in Ballymurphy, west Belfast, Northern Ireland. Photograph: Paul McErlane for the Guardian

Ian Cobain

Thursday 26 June 2014 16.47 BST
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One of the most tragic and controversial episodes of the conflict in Northern Ireland will be relived in a Belfast courtroom on Friday when a preliminary hearing is held into the deaths of 10 people shot dead more than four decades ago.

All 10 were killed in one small neighbourhood of west Belfast over little more than 36 hours in August 1971 during the disturbances that were triggered by the introduction of internment without trial.

Drawing upon hundreds of pages of contemporary witness statements, police reports and pathologists' records gathered for the inquest, the Guardian has reconstructed the events surrounding the killings.

What emerges is a picture that is complex and confused, but which points to a prolonged killing spree by soldiers of the Parachute Regiment, several months before troops from the same regiment massacred protesters at Derry on Bloody Sunday.

Among the nine men and one woman fatally wounded in the streets around Ballymurphy between the evening of 9 August and the morning of 11 August were a local priest, shot twice while giving the last rites to a man who had also been shot, and a 44-year-old mother of eight, shot in the face.

At least eight of those who died appear to have been shot by soldiers of the Parachute Regiment. A ninth was shot by a soldier from a different regiment, while the 10th was shot by an unidentified sniper, possibly a soldier. Another man died of heart failure, allegedly after being subjected to a mock execution by soldiers.

Unlike on Bloody Sunday, however, no journalists were present, no camera crews captured the events, and there was no international condemnation of the killings.

The police investigation appears to have been a perfunctory affair, and only members of the Royal Military police were permitted to interview the troops involved. The soldiers maintained that they had been shooting at terrorists, and that some of the dead were themselves gunmen and others caught in crossfire.

The original inquests were brief, resulting in open verdicts. Before long the killings, known locally as the Ballymurphy massacre, became half-forgotten.

The families of the dead have never forgotten, however. They have persuaded the attorney general for Northern Ireland to order fresh inquests which they believe will not only bring the truth about those 36 hours to the surface, but will lead to an official acknowledgement that all those who died were unarmed and innocent.

"The official version is that my daddy was a gunman, and that all these people were gunmen," says John Teggart. His father Daniel, 44, was shot while attempting to cross open ground in front of an army base, and then shot several more times as he lay on the ground. "That isn't true. My daddy wasn't a gunman; none of them were gunmen. We all know the truth. But I want an official acknowledgement of the truth."
A British soldier aims his rifle on a suspect in the republican Ballymurphy estate in west Belfast. A British soldier aims his rifle on a suspect in the republican Ballymurphy estate in west Belfast. Photograph: Alex Bowie

In the early hours of Monday 9 August, soldiers from 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment, based at a commandeered community centre in Ballymurphy known as the Henry Taggart memorial hall, were among thousands of troops across the province to round up republicans who were to be interned without trial. The swoops, codenamed Operation Demetrius, triggered some of the most intense violence of the conflict: 24 people were killed in Northern Ireland over the next four days, hundreds of homes were destroyed and thousands fled across the border to refugee camps set up by the Irish army.

In Ballymurphy, 18 people were taken from their homes and brought to the hall, where they say they were beaten before they were moved to another location.

The arrests triggered panic-buying in the local shops, barricades were erected across the roads and Irish tricolours hung from the lamp-posts. In an article published in the pacifist magazine Peace News later that month, Steve Pittam, an English student spending the summer as a youth worker in Ballymurphy, described how "aggressive and abusive" soldiers turned back people who attempted to leave the area. Today, Pittam recalls that local people were clearly preparing for a riot – teenage boys could be seen making petrol bombs – but they were not preparing for a gun battle.

Local people converged on the memorial hall, the most obvious focus for their anger. Cine camera footage shot by a local resident later that day shows the hall coming under attack from young people throwing stones and petrol bombs.
Scuffles at Ballymurphy memorial hall in August 1971 – video

The troops inside say in their statements that they also came under fire. This version of events is angrily rejected by the relatives of those who died: they insist that the killings were utterly unprovoked.

Missiles were also exchanged between young Catholics from Ballymurphy and young Protestants in neighbouring Springmartin. In the summer of 1971, Springmartin was divided from the predominantly-Catholic Springfield Park only by six-foot railings. Today an 18ft barrier – a so-called peace wall – separates the two communities. Shortly after 4pm there was a brief lull when Father Hugh Mullan, a 40-year-old priest who lived in Springfield Park, remonstrated with the crowds.

During the late afternoon, according to the eyewitness evidence, a large number of people who had been demonstrating outside the hall surged toward the railings. A small number of shots appeared to have been fired.

A 16-year-old Protestant boy was wounded. Soldiers arrested a man with a shotgun and 10 rounds. One company commander, given the cypher "Soldier D", described in his statement how a large Protestant crowd surrounded troops who arrested a Catholic man armed with a shotgun. "I considered this man to be in certain danger of lynching and I therefore fired three warning shots into the air to disperse them."

Another officer, "Soldier K", described a Protestant resident offering him armed assistance. "I told him I would shoot any person I saw that night armed with any weapon." He shot one Protestant gunman in the leg.

Catholics close to Springmartin began to flee their homes. They picked up their children and fled across a piece of open ground, returning to pick up more children. "I was the last one to leave the house with my three-year-old daughter. I was struck on the back with shotgun pellets," one of the residents, Gerald McCaffrey, told the police in a statement taken after the killings.

Soldiers on the roof of a half-built block of flats in Springmartin began to shoot into the Catholic housing, later claiming they were aiming at gunmen. At this stage it was still daylight, although dusk would soon fall.

Several residents gave statements in which they described being pinned down on a patch of open ground when the soldiers opened fire as they fled their homes. When one man, Robert Clarke, was shot in the back, one of his neighbours took two baby's white nappies from a woman taking cover nearby and waved them in the air.
Ballymurphy shootings: who was killed and where – interactive guide

Father Mullan, who lived opposite the open land, telephoned the army to warn them that soldiers were shooting at people fleeing their homes. He then ventured out to help Clarke, waving a white handkerchief above his head as he dashed across the road.

Sean Daly, who was lying beside Clarke, described in his statement how Mullan lay down to give Clarke the last rites. The wounded man told him: "I'm not ready for that yet." Kevin Moore, a seaman on leave who was sheltering nearby, saw the priest then being shot twice: "He screamed and drew his knees up in front of his stomach and seemed to curl up in a ball." Terence McIlharvey said in his statement that Mullan prayed in English and Latin for about 10 minutes, and then went quiet. "During this 10 minutes shots were still coming in very fast especially when anybody moved."

At Mullan's home, another priest, Father Felix McGuckin, telephoned the army again and said he planned to go out and look for Mullan. "I was told that in the circumstances I could be shot if seen moving."

As Mullan lay dying, another man, Frank Quinn, 19, who was also attempting to help Clarke, was shot in the head and killed.

Statements taken from members of the Parachute Regiment were withheld from Quinn's inquest held the following year. More significantly, a sergeant from the special investigation branch of the Royal Military police signed a statement in which he said that during his inquiries he had "ascertained that Military Personnel had fired from Springmartin Road". By the time of Quinn's inquest, he had signed a new statement in which the word "no" had appeared, so that it read: "I ascertained that no Military Personnel had fired from Springmartin Road …"

A few minutes after the deaths of Mullan and Quinn, another group of people, gathered opposite the Henry Taggart memorial hall, 250 yards to the south, also came under fire.

Joan Connolly, who had been loudly protesting about the internment operation, was shot dead, along with Noel Phillips, 20. Five men were wounded and were brought into the hall by soldiers. Two of them – Joseph Murphy, 41, and John Teggart's father – died of their wounds.

One who survived, David Callaghan, lodged a complaint with the army about his treatment inside the hall. He gave a statement in which he said he had been kicked and clubbed with rifles, and that the wounded men were treated only when an army padre insisted upon it.

One soldier at the hall, known as "Soldier E" when he gave his statement, said he had shot three people, including Connolly. He said she had been "armed with what I thought to be a pistol". Swabs of the dead woman's hands suggested she had not fired a weapon, however. And when the bodies were recovered, no pistol was found.

In fact, soldiers recovered no weapons from any of the 10 shot dead in Ballymurphy over those 36 hours.
Victims of the Ballymurphy shootings: (clockwise from top left) Father Hugh Mullan, Noel Phillips, Joan Connolly, Eddie Doherty, Joseph Corr, Frank Quinn, John McKerr, Joseph Murphy, John Laverty and Danny Teggart. Victims of the Ballymurphy shootings: (clockwise from top left) Father Hugh Mullan, Noel Phillips, Joan Connolly, Eddie Doherty, Joseph Corr, Frank Quinn, John McKerr, Joseph Murphy, John Laverty and Danny Teggart. Photograph: Guardian

Desmond Crone, who had been standing with Connolly, Murphy and Teggart, said in his statement: "There was no shooting or stone throwing from the group of which I was a member." When soldiers came out of the hall in an armoured car, to recover the dead and wounded, he said, "they threw them into the back like animals".

The soldiers fired so many rounds that they ran low on ammunition. One of the soldiers who resupplied them, Harry Gow, then an 18-year-old paratrooper, wrote in a book published in 1995 that the soldiers inside the hall "were on a high" when he arrived. "As soon as I walked in I understood why. Six bodies lay sprawled at the bottom of a raised stage. One of them was a woman, hit at least three times. On every reunion I've attended the number of bodies in the hall has climbed. The last time I heard the story it had risen to 22."

Gow said he believed the IRA had handed out its weapons to local people who were attempting to overrun the hall. "The woman killed was said to be manning a Bren gun," he wrote.

Today Gow is a barrister in Liverpool. Asked whether he really believed that a 44-year-old woman would be manning a machine gun on open land less than 100 yards from a well-defended army base, he replied: "Why would [the soldiers in the hall] lie to me? They might lie to inquiries, but they wouldn't lie to me, a fellow Para."

He said a friend of his had shot both Clarke and Mullan. "My friend shot the young man, and then he shot the priest when he picked up the man's rifle. He may also have been giving the last rites, but he picked up the rifle." Gow also insisted it was not possible that the soldiers had been mistaken; that they could not have shot unarmed people.
A mural commemorating the 1971 Ballymurphy shootings in west Belfast, Northern Ireland. A mural commemorating the 1971 Ballymurphy shootings in west Belfast, Northern Ireland. Photograph: Paul McErlane for the Guardian

The following day there was more rioting in Ballymurphy, and barricades were erected across some of the roads. At around 4.30pm that afternoon, at a road junction two-thirds of a mile south of the Henry Taggart memorial hall, a soldier driving a tractor with a mechanical shovel was attempting to dismantle one barricade while other troops fired rubber bullets towards the crowd.

Eyewitnesses said the driver was wearing a black beret, indicating that he was not a member of the Parachute Regiment. At one point, he opened the door of his tractor and opened fire. Edward Docherty, 28, a father of four, was hit and died within minutes.

Nine months later the soldier gave a statement for Docherty's inquest in which he said he had been armed with a submachine gun which held 30 rounds, from which he "fired one shot" at a man who was about to throw a petrol bomb towards him.

A number of eyewitnesses gave statements saying Docherty was running away from the barricade when shot, and that the soldier had been firing indiscriminately.

Among the papers that will be considered by the inquests will be a statement that the soldier had given to military police three days after the incident in which he said he had accidentally switched his weapon to automatic, and that when he pulled the trigger he "emptied the magazine".

The following day, 11 August, a few hundred yards west of the memorial hall, John Laverty, 20, was shot dead and Joseph Corr, 43, a father of seven, shot and wounded as soldiers from the 1st Battalion the Parachute Regiment entered Ballymurphy from the hills to the west. The soldier who was at the head of the patrol later gave a statement in which he said he shot two men whom he claimed were crawling towards him, shooting. The soldier said he then walked past the two men he had shot, but did not explain why no firearms were recovered from the scene. Corr died 16 days later.

Later that morning, John McKerr, 49, a joiner from Andersonstown in west Belfast, was carrying out some last-minute work at the newly-opened Corpus Christi church, a few yards from the spot where Edward Docherty had been shot the previous afternoon. McKerr took a break while a funeral service was being conducted, and walked outside. "A short time later I heard what I believed to be two shots," a priest from the church, Father Francis Harper, said in his statement. Harper ran outside and found McKerr lying face down. "His head was lying in a pool of blood. I attended to him spiritually." McKerr died eight days later.
A mural commemorating the 1971 shootings in Ballymurphy, west Belfast, Northern Ireland A mural commemorating the 1971 shootings in Ballymurphy, west Belfast, Northern Ireland. Photograph: Paul McErlane for the Guardian

A number of eyewitnesses said they saw soldiers shooting towards the area, but there is nothing in the police report to suggest that the army was asked about this. The police report into McKerr's death is just 58 words long.

The families of the 10 dead believe that the fresh inquests will lead to an official acknowledgement that the dead had not been armed and will reveal whether the soldiers who fired the fatal shots were involved in other killings, such as those on Bloody Sunday.

The hearings are also likely to shed light on the role the IRA played in the disturbances in Ballymurphy during those 36 hours.

The Belfast commander of the IRA, Joe Cahill, had been staying at a house in the area, and his biographer quotes him as saying that the IRA's response to the internment swoops had been so intense that civilian casualties were inevitable.

However, the IRA has denied shooting at troops during the time the 10 died; it says the soldiers were not trying to defend themselves against attack at the point at which they opened fire. It is a claim that many of the relatives of the dead appear to accept.

Another eyewitness, Ali Khilleh, a Palestinian student who was spending the summer as a youth worker in Ballymurphy, said his recollection is that soldiers appeared to be responsible for most of the shooting.

However, claims that shots were fired from within the crowd of Catholic demonstrators appear not only in the statements of soldiers and police officers who were present, but the statements of some local people. Gerard McCaffrey, for example, said that after plucking his daughter to safety when their home came under attack, he saw gunmen emerge from within the Catholic crowd and confront Protestants. "The number [of gunmen] seemed to increase considerably when the streets cleared," his statement says. "It was a gun battle between the Catholic crowd at Springfield Park and the Protestant crowd at Springmartin. The army directed their fire at the Catholic crowd."

Harry Gow insists that when he arrived at the memorial hall, it had been at the centre of a two-way gun battle. And some of the cine footage shot after the disturbances indicates that the troops had been fired upon at some stage, as it appears to show holes in sandbags outside the Henry Taggart memorial hall.
Ballymurphy killings: IRA shootings under dispute – video

What emerges above all else from the many contemporary statements and the recollections of those who were present is an impression of tumult, chaos and confusion. "It was very confusing," says Pittam. "I was there and it was incredibly confusing at the time."

Of one matter, he is certain: "By the end of that summer it would have been difficult to find anyone in that area who was not 100% behind the republican movement."

After so many years, recovering the truth about the massacre will be an enormously complicated task. But the Ballymurphy families, like so many other people in Northern Ireland, feel they may never escape the shadows of the past until that truth is laid out in the open.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 09:45:44 am by hide5seek »

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 01:05:18 am »
You see this is not one of the stories the British media wants highlighted. Its all part of the remembering the past so we can move forward but some are dragging there heals on it. Now certain stories will move quicker but that depends on the story of the Troubles that suites the media.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 10:13:24 am »
Didn't know about this. Thanks for posting OP

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2021, 01:57:15 pm »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56986784

Quote

Ten people killed in west Belfast almost 50 years ago in the wake of an Army operation were "entirely innocent", an inquest has found.

The inquest, which began in November 2018, examined the deaths in and around the Ballymurphy area of west Belfast in August 1971.

The shootings happened after an operation in which paramilitary suspects were detained without trial.

Victims included a priest trying to help the wounded and a mother of eight.

Nine of the 10 victims were killed by the Army, the coroner said.

The coroner could not definitively say who shot the tenth victim, John McKerr.

Coroner, Mrs Justice Keegan, delivered her findings on Tuesday over the course of more than two hours.

Ballymurphy shootings: Who were the victims?
'A courtroom cry of horror that I'll never forget'
The killings happened over three days immediately following the introduction of internment - the arrest and detention of paramilitary suspects without trial.

The court heard almost 100 days of evidence from more than 150 witnesses.

These included more than 60 former soldiers, more than 30 civilians and experts in ballistics, pathology and engineering.

Mrs Justice Keegan said that the effect of the killings on the families of the 10 victims have been "stark".

"What is very clear, is that all of the deceased in the serious of inquests were entirely innocent of wrongdoing on the day in question," Mrs Justice Keegan said.

Inquests were held into the deaths in 1972, but they were separate and returned open verdicts.

The new inquests, which began in November 2018, have been held together.

More to follow

Sadly I feel that this will go the same way as Hillsborough in that no one will be held accountable for the British Army murdering 10 innocent people.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 02:15:51 pm by Barneylfc∗ »
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2021, 02:05:43 pm »
50 bloody years…

How different things might have been of justice had been done immediately?

And the lesson is that you never use soldiers for a civilian issue. Because soldiers are trained to kill.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2021, 02:14:12 pm »
A good day for the families though as their loved ones have finally been cleared.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2021, 02:26:53 pm »
A good day for the families though as their loved ones have finally been cleared.
But they should never have had to wait.  It’s a disgrace.

People should have been held to account there and then.

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2021, 02:44:23 pm »
Bastards.

Great news for the families but sadly there will be no justice. That's the British justice system for you though. Further protections being introduced today too.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2021, 02:44:56 pm »
But they should never have had to wait.  It’s a disgrace.

People should have been held to account there and then.

They never will. Because if the polarisation in the north it is too sensitive to go down that road.  To bring the killers to justice would mean acknowledging that what happened here was a war and the successive British governments have refused to do so as they they leave themselves open to a variety of challenges. Between this types of situations, Bloody Sunday, allegations of state collusion and the shoot to kill policy what happened here was akin to war crimes.  This will never be allowed to be properly challenged and there is a ‘wait till they die’ policy. 

I have friends who are personally impacted by all of this so I can see it at first hand what obstacles are out up.  They won’t quit

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2021, 03:03:52 pm »
50 bloody years…

How different things might have been of justice had been done immediately?

And the lesson is that you never use soldiers for a civilian issue. Because soldiers are trained to kill.

And particularly paratroopers.

Mind you the army were there because the RUC and B Specials couldn't be trusted.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2021, 06:59:41 pm »
And particularly paratroopers.

Mind you the army were there because the RUC and B Specials couldn't be trusted.

The tactics were those they developed to suppress colonial insurgents like Kenya and Aden, and Aden was 1968, many of the troops were veterans of the “emergency”.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2021, 07:58:55 pm »
The tactics were those they developed to suppress colonial insurgents like Kenya and Aden, and Aden was 1968, many of the troops were veterans of the “emergency”.
Snatch Land Rovers, internment camps, and lethal force.

It is a shame it can only be recognised for what it is when it occurs on streets that look like ours, and on people that look like us

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2021, 08:17:15 pm »
And particularly paratroopers.

Mind you the army were there because the RUC and B Specials couldn't be trusted.
It went well beyond "soldiers are trained to kill" as an excuse. What happened in Ballymurphy would be regarded as a war crime by the UN or ICC today. British troops intentionally arrested, tortured, and in one case, shot people in custody. They put an unloaded gun in a unarmed man's mouth and pulled the trigger which resulted in him taking a heart attack and dying. They riddled the house with bullets that my grand parents and my mother was in at the time, and it was only a miracle that none of them died.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2021, 10:08:00 pm »
The tactics were those they developed to suppress colonial insurgents like Kenya and Aden, and Aden was 1968, many of the troops were veterans of the “emergency”.
Snatch Land Rovers, internment camps, and lethal force.

And Frank Kitson wrote the textbook on combatting insurgency and low intensity operations based on his experience in Kenya, Malaya and Cyprus. The paratroopers were under Kitson's overall command.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2021, 10:13:34 pm »
It went well beyond "soldiers are trained to kill" as an excuse. What happened in Ballymurphy would be regarded as a war crime by the UN or ICC today. British troops intentionally arrested, tortured, and in one case, shot people in custody. They put an unloaded gun in a unarmed man's mouth and pulled the trigger which resulted in him taking a heart attack and dying. They riddled the house with bullets that my grand parents and my mother was in at the time, and it was only a miracle that none of them died.
Hi Mac… this came from my original comment. 

Just to clarify, them being soldiers is of course absolutely no excuse what so ever, the actions were deplorable in every way.

However, tracing the thread back up the line a bit, politicians who sent in soldiers should have had the foresight to see that when armed soldiers are deployed on civilians, deaths might be a consequence.  As such, we should also hold culpable who ever made the decision to send in soldiers (I wasn’t born so I don’t  know and it’s not something commonly discussed).

How different the next few decades might have looked if this hadn’t happened….
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2021, 10:17:20 pm »
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but the Troubles are not known as The Dirty War for no reason.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2021, 10:35:05 pm »
Hi Mac… this came from my original comment. 

Just to clarify, them being soldiers is of course absolutely no excuse what so ever, the actions were deplorable in every way.

However, tracing the thread back up the line a bit, politicians who sent in soldiers should have had the foresight to see that when armed soldiers are deployed on civilians, deaths might be a consequence.  As such, we should also hold culpable who ever made the decision to send in soldiers (I wasn’t born so I don’t  know and it’s not something commonly discussed).

How different the next few decades might have looked if this hadn’t happened….
It's not as simple as that, though. Not when it comes to the North and The Troubles. The soldiers were first put on the street to contain rising violence and to essentially stop ethnic cleansing. They were supposed to be there to keep the peace and protect civilians. They knew their orders, but somewhere down the line, those went out the window and the modus operandi broke down and good old fashioned colonial mentality took over. That came from the usual and obvious suspects, of course. I'm talking about your Thatchers, Paisley etc etc. They stoked the fire. The military chain of command also fell into that mentality. What it resulted in was troops looking at civilians in Nationalist areas as being nothing more than terrorist, subhuman second class citizens. Not all of the troops deployed here would have thought that way, but some would have. It's not just a case of "who sent those in" when you take all of the aforementioned into consideration, and then build permanent military barracks around people's homes, or enforce curfews on a populace which would be deemed to be draconian if not outright fascist. The events of what happened in Ballymurphy are just the tip of an iceberg which aren't fully understood to anyone who didn't live through it.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2021, 10:39:44 pm »
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but the Troubles are not known as The Dirty War for no reason.
Yeah, that's it. There's a lot of things that went on that were just day to day which would would be shocking if it reached the mainstream news today. The thing is, those dirty things were just acceptable to the British media. They were just swept under the rug.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2021, 10:40:04 pm »
Truth and reconciliation was rejected by the British establishment during the peace talks. Tells you everything you need to know.

Great day for the families.

I don't think many mainland UK residents really understand just how fragile the situation in Northern Ireland still is.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2021, 10:42:10 pm »
It's not as simple as that, though. Not when it comes to the North and The Troubles. The soldiers were first put on the street to contain rising violence and to essentially stop ethnic cleansing. They were supposed to be there to keep the peace and protect civilians. They knew their orders, but somewhere down the line, those went out the window and the modus operandi broke down and good old fashioned colonial mentality took over. That came from the usual and obvious suspects, of course. I'm talking about your Thatchers, Paisley etc etc. They stoked the fire. The military chain of command also fell into that mentality. What it resulted in was troops looking at civilians in Nationalist areas as being nothing more than terrorist, subhuman second class citizens. Not all of the troops deployed here would have thought that way, but some would have. It's not just a case of "who sent those in" when you take all of the aforementioned into consideration, and then build permanent military barracks around people's homes, or enforce curfews on a populace which would be deemed to be draconian if not outright fascist. The events of what happened in Ballymurphy are just the tip of an iceberg which aren't fully understood to anyone who didn't live through it.
Yeah quite agree…..

My point really  was that in Britain there is never any discussion of political fall out from how troops hit there in the first place. I’ve never even heard it discussed… which I find astonishing really. The tip of the iceberg as you say…



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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2021, 10:46:25 pm »
The Ballymurphy massacre was carried out by 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment of the British Army the same regiment who carried out Bloody Sunday in Derry a few months later. Look at the repercussions of Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday adding in Internment as innocent men were taken off the streets just because of there name or postcode. if you wanted to ensure a radicalised population willing to take up arms could you do more? Every step up to the Anglo Irish Agreement seemd to be designed to ferment the troubles and that's before you look at sectarianism and Loyalists. Add a sprinkle of Maggie with a topping of gerrymandering and Bombay Street you'll find that not all was fair in six counties.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2021, 10:48:19 pm »
Yeah quite agree…..

My point really  was that in Britain there is never any discussion of political fall out from how troops hit there in the first place. I’ve never even heard it discussed… which I find astonishing really. The tip of the iceberg as you say…

I have Irsh cuosins in Barrow and they told me that all Britih military history in schools tells of the brave men who fought for your Country, many were but not all those stories where correct, to the victor the spoils in many cases i guess.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2021, 10:51:35 pm »
Yeah quite agree…..

My point really  was that in Britain there is never any discussion of political fall out from how troops hit there in the first place. I’ve never even heard it discussed… which I find astonishing really. The tip of the iceberg as you say…




Yeah. That's the media there. We're on a Liverpool forum, so we all know how they deal with things and how they can either just outright lie or decide not to tell the truth with impunity. Nothing has really changed.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2021, 10:54:03 pm »
Yeah, that's it. There's a lot of things that went on that were just day to day which would would be shocking if it reached the mainstream news today. The thing is, those dirty things were just acceptable to the British media. They were just swept under the rug.

100%, they portrayed the British and Loyalist sides are peacekeepers and the Republincan side as the Terrorists, it was a happy narrative.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2021, 10:55:24 pm »
Truth and reconciliation was rejected by the British establishment during the peace talks. Tells you everything you need to know.

Great day for the families.

I don't think many mainland UK residents really understand just how fragile the situation in Northern Ireland still is.

And with the DUP Leadership up for grabs on Friday its even more fragile, i'm hoping Jeffery Donaldson wins an election, tharts how fucking fragile it is but the mainland BBC Newsroom will fob it off.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2021, 10:55:56 pm »
I have Irsh cuosins in Barrow and they told me that all Britih military history in schools tells of the brave men who fought for your Country, many were but not all those stories where correct, to the victor the spoils in many cases i guess.


The history of Ireland isn’t really covered unless you pick history at the age of 16 (I think).  From what I’ve seen it’s pretty balanced at that level.  But it’s never ever  mentioned before that age.  There’s hardly any teaching of Cromwell either and the English civil war isn’t mentioned in many places right now (which is astonishing really).

History teaching has become a lot more nuanced over the last couple of decades, certainly when discussing these things.  My son has just done a project on WW1 and they’ve actually gone into incredible detail about the experiences of the allied troops vs the German troops.

But most History taught is WWI, WWII, the Tudor’s of the industrial revolution (in secondary school anyway).
Empires are mentioned as a concept now, and I think we’re making progress here…
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2021, 10:59:12 pm »
its the same here in relation to The Troubles, my girls knew pretty much nothing about them and never heard of the 81 Hunger Strikes or the overall general IRA campaign with Britian. This is in Natinaol schools across Ireland, crazy stuff.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2021, 11:29:59 pm »
We’re going back 20 years, but when I did my A level in History it was split 50:50 between European History (basically your school picked 2 from Germany, Russia, France, Spain and possibly Italy) and British History from about 1850’s to 1939 but the British part was probably 50% Irish history, so that was Gladstone and the Home Rule Bills, Parnell and the IPP, the split in the Liberals (over the Irish Question) Easter Rising and Sinn Fein, the Unionist response, the Civil War and eventually independence, and personally I found the Irish part the most interesting because it was still very relevant in explaining things today, as well as making a change from covering WW1 and WW2 repeatedly. Just a shame so few people study History at A levels.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2021, 11:33:36 pm »
Oh we have an interesting history ;D
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2021, 08:47:12 am »
I studied History to A-level and we did Irish History 1815-1899, covered Catholic Emancipation, the Famine and the variety of failed risings, the Land league and the early Home Rule work, then did the rise of Sinn Fein, Easter Rising, War of Independence and Civil war. We also jumped into WWII. My partner studied a similar syllabus and then did a History degree. My daughter is now planning to start A level history in September. We have to basically fill in a lot of gaps as they are taught a very sanitised version of what has happened. All sides have questions over their side in our history, people who are unquestionably proud of their countries history don’t know their countries history.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2021, 08:59:45 am »
https://www.historyireland.com/volume-22/frank-kitson-northern-ireland-british-way-counterinsurgency/

Interesting article on Kitson and the colonial suppression tactics he brought to Ireland
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2021, 11:04:04 am »
https://www.historyireland.com/volume-22/frank-kitson-northern-ireland-british-way-counterinsurgency/

Interesting article on Kitson and the colonial suppression tactics he brought to Ireland

Snap!

That’s were I refreshed my memory.

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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2021, 03:32:58 pm »
Snap!

That’s were I refreshed my memory.
Frank Cottrell Boyce tweeted another link about Kitson.
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Re: Ballymurphy shoootings
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2021, 01:26:01 am »
I was talking to a Polish guy recently about NI History. When he moved here he did some research on it. But as he began to make friends with locals over the years, he was shocked how little they knew about their own history.