Topic: Plans to Introduce a Plastic Bottle Deposit Scheme

[PaulF]

I'm going to start stocking up my empties now to cash-in when the scheme starts.

Ha Ha genius. Shame recycling day has just happened here, or I could get a boat load!

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I'm going to start stocking up my empties now to cash-in when the scheme starts.

The tag needs to have a special symbol for the "cash-in" to function.



Atleast here in Germany, only those bottles that have this symbol, could be "cashed-in".

My guess is, all bottles that are produced after the implementation of this scheme will have some sort of design as the one shown above.

[24/7]

The tag needs to have a special symbol for the "cash-in" to function.



Atleast here in Germany, only those bottles that have this symbol, could be "cashed-in".

My guess is, all bottles that are produced after the implementation of this scheme will have some sort of design as the one shown above.

Yup - in Sweden it's called "PANT" and usually is 50 öre, which is half a krona, which is less about a ha'penny

[24/7]

Ha Ha genius. Shame recycling day has just happened here, or I could get a boat load!

You might still get a boatload! Apparently China has been refusing our recycling for some time now, so it's not going anywhere.....(although I did hear recently of a case in Austria where up to 400,000 tons of domestic, recyclable waste was being smuggled into Slovakia to go into illegal landfill.......)

Telegraph article from January on backlog of recycling - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/02/plastic-waste-already-building-uk-following-chinas-ban/

(Incineration sounds like a great solution - but when you're burning plastic that can be recycled instead, then it really is a wasted resource - LDIW says, "It's not waste until it's wasted!" and burning it is wasting it.)

[Elzar]

Could they not have introduced it without the price going up? Don't we already pay for the bottle as part of the price of the item?

I support the idea, but unsure why they need to give a price rise.

[SP]

So if you were to say laser print a copy of the barcode from the new bottles and stick them on the old bottles...

All the evidence would be crushed.

[SP]

Could they not have introduced it without the price going up? Don't we already pay for the bottle as part of the price of the item?

I support the idea, but unsure why they need to give a price rise.

The cost of the bottle is tiny, and way below the level needed to act as an incentive. The cheap cost of the material is why so much of it gets chucked...

The legislation would need to be carefully drafted, so that any surplus goes to suitable environmental charities and not back to the Treasury or into the shops' profits.

[Elzar]

The cost of the bottle is tiny, and way below the level needed to act as an incentive. The cheap cost of the material is why so much of it gets chucked...

The legislation would need to be carefully drafted, so that any surplus goes to suitable environmental charities and not back to the Treasury or into the shops' profits.

This was my worry. I'm interested to see what the price rise and the money back comparison is, and how the excess gets used....

[CheshireDave]

The legislation would need to be carefully drafted, so that any surplus goes to suitable environmental charities and not back to the Treasury or into the shops' profits.

How was it done with the 5p (now 10p in most shops) bags? I know people were concerned about the bag money going into Mr Tesco and co pockets.

[sms1986]

How was it done with the 5p (now 10p in most shops) bags? I know people were concerned about the bag money going into Mr Tesco and co pockets.

Here's an article about it - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42638548.

[rob1966]

No it isn't. That would only work if no one adapted and continued to put their plastics into the recycling. I recycle all my plastic bottles, but would instantly change.

I used it when I lived in Germany with no issues. I would actually feel better about using these as I would know they are getting recycled, rather than going to potential landfill. Currently contaminated recycling ends up in landfill/burnt as it is too expensive to separate from the stuff that can be recycled. This can be unwashed tins, tetrapak mixed in with other recyling, tops left on certain milk bottles.

I fully want this to be introduced, but it needs to be done properly. This is where my concerns come from (this is the country that voted for Brexit after all). Like I said, we as a family and the thousands who live in Trafford, already recycle everything and have separate bins for card/paper, cans and bottles etc. This approach is actually encouraging us to create another recycle outlet alongside our current one. What I would like to see is the proposed recycling facilities introduced, they are deffo needed, but a way of keeping what we currently have and allowing those who already recycle to claim our deposits back, this way we don't end up with two systems running in parallel, with one collecting billions of cans and one not collecting much (empty bin wagons), also improving the current method so nothing gets rejected and dumped in landfill.

Like I said, I occasionally carry the aluminium ingots for Novelis when I'm working for Stobart. The pic below is of 2 26t ingots made at Latchford, from 5 million drinks cans. These things are rolling out every day, Novelis currently recycle 60 billion cans worldwide.



The big issue that will need to be addressed is those who continue to think, sod it, its only 20p and lash the can etc on the floor or out of the car window.

[TepidT2O]

I’m a bit pissed off with it to be honest.

I already recycle all my plastic bottles in my recycling bin.

Now I’m going to gage to lug the fuckers across town to the shops before I even start my shopping...


I get the point to it, but recycling has just got more difficult for me..

[24/7]

The big issue that will need to be addressed is those who continue to think, sod it, its only 20p and lash the can etc on the floor or out of the car window.

Very much a HUGE issue there rob and I fully concur. How do we change the mindsets of people who normally think this way? One of our mentors in LDIW said that, "...mindsets usually do not change until the correct incentive is placed before them." I'm not naive enough to believe that the return scheme will convert 100% of these people, far from it - but there's an increasing number of people whose mindset WILL change - that's progress - and the return scheme should make a huge dent in that objective.........

.........provided it's done correctly and with proper consultation with nations who have made it work.

Sweden = 10 million people
UK = 70 million people

Simply scaling up doesn't always cut it and I would be concerned about the planning and organisation - and it needs a proper, joined-up thinking process behind it to make it work.

[24/7]

I get the point to it, but recycling has just got more difficult for me..

If they run it the same way as the Nordic countries, you'll get a coupon from the exercise that equals money off the shopping - so you'd only lug the stuff to the shop when you need the coupon to do the shopping. It's a win-win, maaaaaan

Oh and not all plastic bottles will be included - most likely it'll be drinks ones, not e.g. fabric conditioner.

[CheshireDave]

If they run it the same way as the Nordic countries, you'll get a coupon from the exercise that equals money off the shopping - so you'd only lug the stuff to the shop when you need the coupon to do the shopping. It's a win-win, maaaaaan

Oh and not all plastic bottles will be included - most likely it'll be drinks ones, not e.g. fabric conditioner.

It isn't win win though is it.

How is me having to cart bottles across town and standing like a pleb feeding them into a machine preferable to me than putting them in the recycling bin which I pay the council to collect currently?

All this does is adds a step to the recycling process and financially penalises people who continue to recycle the way they've been asked to do for the past decade.

[Nobby Reserve]

The big issue that will need to be addressed is those who continue to think, sod it, its only 20p and lash the can etc on the floor or out of the car window.

The idea is, apparently, that kids and homeless people act as freelance litter-pickers to save enough to buy sweets or spice.

[Red-Soldier]

It isn't win win though is it.

How is me having to cart bottles across town and standing like a pleb feeding them into a machine preferable to me than putting them in the recycling bin which I pay the council to collect currently?

All this does is adds a step to the recycling process and financially penalises people who continue to recycle the way they've been asked to do for the past decade.

It is a win-win most definitely.  I've been helping to campaign for a deposit retrun scheme for around nine years, so I'm delighted that everyone's hard work has finally paid off!

If they can get the scheme right, I predict a similar level of success to the plastic bag levy, with regards to waste reduction.

It doesn't penalise people at all.

There will always be moaners I guess.

[rob1966]

Very much a HUGE issue there rob and I fully concur. How do we change the mindsets of people who normally think this way? One of our mentors in LDIW said that, "...mindsets usually do not change until the correct incentive is placed before them." I'm not naive enough to believe that the return scheme will convert 100% of these people, far from it - but there's an increasing number of people whose mindset WILL change - that's progress - and the return scheme should make a huge dent in that objective.........

.........provided it's done correctly and with proper consultation with nations who have made it work.

Sweden = 10 million people
UK = 70 million people

Simply scaling up doesn't always cut it and I would be concerned about the planning and organisation - and it needs a proper, joined-up thinking process behind it to make it work.

It's a massive problem in the UK that we need to address. My kids know they never ever drop litter, everything is either binned while out or taken home. Trafford have just started installing big bins with separate bits for cans and bottles, so this is a big help.

I used to work in Trafford Park and would go for a walk of a dinner time, along the dual carriageway that goes to the M60, I was disgusted to see the amount of rubbish thrown at the roadside. When the works started to build the new tram link, they cut the hedges back in the middle of the carriageway on the side going into Manchester and the real size of the problem was revealed, there was tons of the stuff, every piece of it can only have been thrown from a vehicle as there are no pavements on that side. Highways England collected 7500 tonnes of rubbish from the roads in 2015.

This fella is walking around the UK on a personal tidy litter mission, in 18 months he had collected 42,000 tonnes of litter.  https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/847748/Litter-picker-collects-tonnes-rubbish-walking-across-UK

[CheshireDave]

It doesn't penalise people at all.

It does penalise people. To the tune of 20p or whatever they decide on per bottle.

What % of bottles purchased in Germany with a deposit on are returned and not placed in other recycling bins or general waste bins?

I hope this works in reducing waste going into landfill or slung in the road. But I fear people will just take the penalty and sling it in the normal recyclable bins provided by the council.

[redbyrdz]

What % of bottles purchased in Germany with a deposit on are returned and not placed in other recycling bins or general waste bins?

Something over 90%.

[24/7]

This fella is walking around the UK on a personal tidy litter mission, in 18 months he had collected 42,000 tonnes of litter.  https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/847748/Litter-picker-collects-tonnes-rubbish-walking-across-UK

Yup, we're talking with Wayne - one of our guys met him as recently as yesterday. It is a big problem yes but it's one we're trying to tackle. Together gets it done, doing gets it done. Join the movement!

[redbyrdz]

ps- do the bottles have to be 'clean' to be returned.
pps - might start a line in home bottle crushing equipment...

They need to be empty (drops are ok) but not clean. The machine checks the weight, if there is too much left in them it refuses them.

You can't crush the bottles before returning them, the machine can't read them then. They need to be ok, especially where the barcode is.

[B0151?]

Sounds like a great idea. We as a country are way behind on recycling, it's about time we caught up.

[B0151?]

Will always remember when they bought in the charge for plastic bags.

All the tweets about boycotting plastic bags in protest. 

[PaulF]

How many times can a bottle be recycled? Is it recycled into something that has a lifespan of say 5 years?
Again, I wonder if it's a long term plan. Maybe metal\alloy is more repeatedly recyclyable, although the inital cost is far higher.
If we can replace all milk bottles with cans that are 10 times more expensive but can be recycled 100 times, would we eventually stomach that?

(Understand totally the argument this will hit the poor , with young children, just trying to see the bigger picutre. Recycling something once, whilst halving the plastic usage, is still not a long term solution).

[Red-Soldier]

Will always remember when they bought in the charge for plastic bags.

All the tweets about boycotting plastic bags in protest. 

 

[Red-Soldier]

How many times can a bottle be recycled? Is it recycled into something that has a lifespan of say 5 years?
Again, I wonder if it's a long term plan. Maybe metal\alloy is more repeatedly recyclyable, although the inital cost is far higher.
If we can replace all milk bottles with cans that are 10 times more expensive but can be recycled 100 times, would we eventually stomach that?

(Understand totally the argument this will hit the poor , with young children, just trying to see the bigger picutre. Recycling something once, whilst halving the plastic usage, is still not a long term solution).

This is absolute bollocks.

It's about changing people's habits and thinking, usually, the only way to do that en masse is by using a financial incentive.

[CheshireDave]

This is absolute bollocks.

It's about changing people's habits and thinking, usually, the only way to do that en masse is by using a financial incentive.

Where is the financial incentive to the consumer?

[PaulF]

This is absolute bollocks.

It's about changing people's habits and thinking, usually, the only way to do that en masse is by using a financial incentive.

I don't disagree with that at all. I wouldn't class us as poor, but with the amount of milk we get through, if the cost of a bottle of milk went up 20p it'd really hurt.
If that's the cost to protect the planet so be it. Future generations may think twice about children they can't afford!

[redbyrdz]

Where is the financial incentive to the consumer?

Why does there need to be a financial incentive? Isn't a reduction in littering and better recycling incentive enough?

[PaulF]

Why does there need to be a financial incentive? Isn't a reduction in littering and better recycling incentive enough?

Clearly not, or we wouldn't need to be doing it.

[CheshireDave]

Why does there need to be a financial incentive? Isn't a reduction in littering and better recycling incentive enough?

I don't think there needs to be a financial incentive. I would discourage it in fact. But Red-Solider said there was a financial incentive and I was curious where this was? Can only think the people picking up rubbish from the street.

[redbyrdz]

I don't disagree with that at all. I wouldn't class us as poor, but with the amount of milk we get through, if the cost of a bottle of milk went up 20p it'd really hurt.
If that's the cost to protect the planet so be it. Future generations may think twice about children they can't afford!

You get it back as soon as you return the bottle!!

Ok, you might have to pay 20p 'in-hand' when buying your first deposit-costing bottle, but surely that's affordable to anyone?

[Zeb]

You quickly start to see it as part of the price of the item, with the money back a bonus. 10p for a Corona bottle wasn't it? You thought nothing of washing your empty milk bottles and putting them back out overnight either.

It is habit and getting used to stuff. This isn't punitive in ways which will be terrible. If anything, it may drive companies to look at other ways of storing liquids. Or how you yourself buy them. A couple of tetrapaks, say, rather than the big plastic bottle of milk. So an additional cost there, maybe? Would be good to see it properly supported so no-one loses out initially but that won't happen to the level any of us would like, I know.

[PaulF]

You get it back as soon as you return the bottle!!

Ok, you might have to pay 20p 'in-hand' when buying your first deposit-costing bottle, but surely that's affordable to anyone?

Sorry, what  I'm saying plastic isn't repeatedly recyclable, and we may have to use a different material (maybe metal), which will put up the cost , and not be refundable.

[Red-Soldier]

Where is the financial incentive to the consumer?

Returning the bottles to get your money back

The small 5p levy on plastic bags has seen a reduction in use of 80% in England, that's huge!!

[24/7]

Sorry, what  I'm saying plastic isn't repeatedly recyclable, and we may have to use a different material (maybe metal), which will put up the cost , and not be refundable.

Metal cans are also collected in the same way in these machines. Shouldn't be a difference.

[24/7]

Just wanted to point out too that the machines usually only take certain dimensions of plastic/glass bottle and tin can - it's not like you're gonna get a few p back from every tin of Whiskas but every tinnie of Stella or Carling.

Likewise, it's not like yer milk bottles will go in these machines - retail milk is more often than not sold in either plastic or tetrapak containers - and I never saw them collected in these machines in Sweden - neither were wine bottles - just standard 500ml bottles for lager/cider/etc, tinnies of beer/coke/fanta and plastic bottles up to 500ml too, you know, the coke zero type ones.

I can't see the UK investing millions in machines that do anything different to the ones currently in use elsewhere.

[redbyrdz]

Sorry, what  I'm saying plastic isn't repeatedly recyclable, and we may have to use a different material (maybe metal), which will put up the cost , and not be refundable.

What the containers are made of is a whole new debate.


One if the advantages of collecting bottles seperately from other waste is that it is very easy to sort the waste by type of plastic, so it is easier to recycled and not contaminates with other plastics.

[rob1966]

You get it back as soon as you return the bottle!!

Ok, you might have to pay 20p 'in-hand' when buying your first deposit-costing bottle, but surely that's affordable to anyone?

I've just had a look in my 3/4 full black recycling bin. Without moving anything I counted a fivers worth of bottles at 20p a bottle. Thinking about the amount of canned and bottled stuff we go through, we could be looking at £30 a month added to our food bills.. Like someone said, I already pay, via my council tax, to have the bins collected and the cans/bottles etc recycled, so I'll be paying twice per bottle/can and instead of opening the back door and putting the can in the bin I pay for, I've got to travel to the recycle point.

How many times can a bottle be recycled? Is it recycled into something that has a lifespan of say 5 years?
Again, I wonder if it's a long term plan. Maybe metal\alloy is more repeatedly recyclyable, although the inital cost is far higher.
If we can replace all milk bottles with cans that are 10 times more expensive but can be recycled 100 times, would we eventually stomach that?

(Understand totally the argument this will hit the poor , with young children, just trying to see the bigger picutre. Recycling something once, whilst halving the plastic usage, is still not a long term solution).

No idea on bottles, but aluminium in infinitely recycleable.