Topic: Plans to Introduce a Plastic Bottle Deposit Scheme

[24/7]

Rob, what kind of bottles and cans? Do they fit the criteria mentioned in my previous? If so, then they'd most likely fall under the return scheme - so you get your money back in the form of a coupon that reduces your next shop! (if they do it the same way as Norden)

If they don't fit the criteria, then they're unlikely to fall under the return scheme, therefore no need to 'add' anything to the price.

Ergo, it's still a win-win.

[CheshireDave]

Returning the bottles to get your money back

The small 5p levy on plastic bags has seen a reduction in use of 80% in England, that's huge!!

If a bottle of coke is £1 now. It's still not going to be £1 once they add the deposit. Therefore there is no financial incentive. Except to people rummaging around in hedgerows for bottles and cans.

I'm glad it's seen a reduction in plastic bag use. Hopefully that continues.

[redbyrdz]

Just wanted to point out too that the machines usually only take certain dimensions of plastic/glass bottle and tin can - it's not like you're gonna get a few p back from every tin of Whiskas but every tinnie of Stella or Carling.

Likewise, it's not like yer milk bottles will go in these machines - retail milk is more often than not sold in either plastic or tetrapak containers - and I never saw them collected in these machines in Sweden - neither were wine bottles - just standard 500ml bottles for lager/cider/etc, tinnies of beer/coke/fanta and plastic bottles up to 500ml too, you know, the coke zero type ones.

I can't see the UK investing millions in machines that do anything different to the ones currently in use elsewhere.

I can see a problem with milk containers in the UK, because they are square. The machines in Germany spin the bottles around to read the code, they can't do that with a square 4-pint one. Sure there is a solution though.

Before the new deposit, only glass bottles and re-fillable plastic bottles (a type of sturdy coke bottle that doesn't exist in the UK) had a deposit, and one-use bottles didn't. When they introduced the new deposit for all drinks bottles, the drinks industry switched a lot of drinks to other bottles that were more easily recyclable. The same might happen in the UK.

[Devon Red]

I used to live in The Netherlands where they have a similar system. It works perfectly well and after the first couple of trips to the shops it becomes second nature. Stick your empty bottles in your carrier bags when you leave the house, deposit them at the supermarket to get your money back, go shopping for your next lot of bottles. It's idiot proof.

[rob1966]

Rob, what kind of bottles and cans? Do they fit the criteria mentioned in my previous? If so, then they'd most likely fall under the return scheme - so you get your money back in the form of a coupon that reduces your next shop! (if they do it the same way as Norden)

If they don't fit the criteria, then they're unlikely to fall under the return scheme, therefore no need to 'add' anything to the price.

Ergo, it's still a win-win.

The vast majority where 2 ltr milk containers, then there are cans used for beans, soup etc, wine and beer bottles, some beer cans and diet coke cans. I'm not sure which ones fall under the scheme, but like I said, I already recycle these anyway and get charged via council tax for the privilege. The proposed scheme, as it won't take into account the home recycling I already do, means I will have to sort out those I can get the money back on, then make a journey I previously didn't have to make, to get the money back that has been added on.

I used to live in The Netherlands where they have a similar system. It works perfectly well and after the first couple of trips to the shops it becomes second nature. Stick your empty bottles in your carrier bags when you leave the house, deposit them at the supermarket to get your money back, go shopping for your next lot of bottles. It's idiot proof.

We would easily adapt to that, that sounds dead easy.

[redbyrdz]

The vast majority where 2 ltr milk containers, then there are cans used for beans, soup etc, wine and beer bottles, some beer cans and diet coke cans. I'm not sure which ones fall under the scheme, but like I said, I already recycle these anyway and get charged via council tax for the privilege. The proposed scheme, as it won't take into account the home recycling I already do, means I will have to sort out those I can get the money back on, then make a journey I previously didn't have to make, to get the money back that has been added on.

We would easily adapt to that, that sounds dead easy.

Its recycling drinks containers. Wine, beer, coke bottles, and wine, beer, coke cans. Not beans and tuna cans, they're not drinks.

What remains to be seen is what happens with milk containers (plastic, not tetrapak, that can't be recycled anyway),and juice containers like the milk ones. My feeling is they will be collected via the machines and sorted into a separate box, afaik they use a different plastic.



I don't know why you keep going on about having to do an extra trip to return the bottles. Just take them with you on the next shop? The only time I made an extra trip was when tidying up the kitchen before expecting guests, and didn't want the bag full of empties standing round.

[24/7]

Rob, those machines in Sweden are attached to the actual supermarkets where you would go anyway to do the shopping. It won't necessarily require an extra trip that you previously wouldn't have made - you can do the return and coupon retrieval on the same trip you would have had to have done anyway - vis a vis the weekly shop.

And, as redbyrdz and I have already pointed out, it's likely that only certain types of bottles/cans will be in the scheme - sort at home, continue to recycle 'x' as previous, take 'y' to the shops when you need to go shopping, receive 'z' discount on said shop. It really is very simple and effective - and it works

I'll concede that one very real issue for some people might be having to queue and wait for a machine to be available.......

.....but then again we're British - we invented queues, right?

[PaulF]

The vast majority where 2 ltr milk containers, then there are cans used for beans, soup etc, wine and beer bottles, some beer cans and diet coke cans. I'm not sure which ones fall under the scheme, but like I said, I already recycle these anyway and get charged via council tax for the privilege. The proposed scheme, as it won't take into account the home recycling I already do, means I will have to sort out those I can get the money back on, then make a journey I previously didn't have to make, to get the money back that has been added on.

We would easily adapt to that, that sounds dead easy.

You aren't really being charged for the privilege of recycling your bottles though?
You are being charged to have your waste disposed of. If they can do it more cheaply (because landfill is expensive) by recycling and by you sorting it, then it makes sense to do that. Economically and Envioromentally.
Even if you could opt out.  I doubt you'd want to store all your refuse on your property.
Get your point about being double taxed. I'm not foolish enough to suggest you will see a reduction in your CT because they are doing less recycling. More likely to get a reduction in season ticket at OT because they are seeing less goals!

[24/7]

Paul, you mention Rob's CT - far from a reduction, I'm actually thinking of increasing his CT cos I wanna know what he does with all the Yorkie bar wrappers

Oh and it's NOT a double tax - cos the 'pant' (I can't think what to call it in English) is fully refundable. How many taxes do you know that do that?!

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Over packaging and the use of plastic is a real bugbear with me so I am happy with this.

[rafathegaffa83]

I used to live in The Netherlands where they have a similar system. It works perfectly well and after the first couple of trips to the shops it becomes second nature. Stick your empty bottles in your carrier bags when you leave the house, deposit them at the supermarket to get your money back, go shopping for your next lot of bottles. It's idiot proof.

Yep. You would still be going to the supermarket with your reusable bags, so it isn't that much of any inconvenience. Perhaps some supermarkets might start thinking to sell a large box that can hook into the carts like they do in Canada. The box hooks into any trolley. You could use it to carry your empties in and then put your groceries in it on the way out.

The German/Swedish models referenced here also seem to have three advantages higher return in terms of money back, more materials accepted, more locations. The Canadian model outside Québec only gets you ten cents (5p) back and it's usually only available for beer and wine bottles that have to be returned back to government-operated shops that specifically sell beer. Right there that limits people from getting anything back on non-alcoholic water bottles/ Coke cans etc, which end up in the recycle box.

If governments want to reduce plastics, perhaps the Pfand type return could be higher or lower depending on the type of materials being used to help change consumer habits. For example, you get half the amount for a plastic Evian bottle compared to a glass one to encourage you to buy a reuseable drink container. The Pfand could be added to a supermarket points card (to save paper receipts) to be used at the till

[rob1966]

Paul, you mention Rob's CT - far from a reduction, I'm actually thinking of increasing his CT cos I wanna know what he does with all the Yorkie bar wrappers

Oh and it's NOT a double tax - cos the 'pant' (I can't think what to call it in English) is fully refundable. How many taxes do you know that do that?!

Chuck them out of the window of the cab 

The reason I'd have to make additional trips is because the wife, as she works 6 hours a day and is home for 1, does all the shopping. However, as she walks (she rarely takes the car) she would either forget to take the recycling or not bother and leave it for me (one of our main causes of arguments is she does everything while I tippy tappy on the laptop), so it would be my job. Sometimes she doesn't go directly to the shops, she will go to visit her Dad in the nursing home, she won't want to walk 2 miles there with the empties, visit him, than walk a mile back to the shops.

Our council is Tory (MP is Labour) so there is more chance of hell freezing over than them lot giving me a reduction on my CT for doing my own recycling, as I've said, they have been sending the green big wagon out every Friday for 2 years, even though most are empty/not put out. Like I said, we have 4 wheely bins, 3 for recycling and the 4th for non recycleable. I'm off the tip at 7 (Boysnope wharf) which is a fantastic recycling centre - I've got carpets and wood to get rid of. The wood will go into the dedicated wood skip and the carpets will go into the non recycle, which is then used to produce green fuels. I'm well into recycling, nothing that can be recycled is put in the wrong bin, I always bring coke cans home rather than chuck them in a bin, so that they go in my black bin.

[thejbs]

Over packaging and the use of plastic is a real bugbear with me so I am happy with this.

This. I've cut so many things from my shop over the past few years over packaging. So much of it is completely needless. I only buy loose fruit n veg and bring my own bags for it. If I can help it, I buy local stuff that has travelled less.

We're not perfect but we try to be conscientious. Becomes second nature after a while.

Not only am I all for this, I think the plastic bag charge should double.

[CheshireDave]

Not only am I all for this, I think the plastic bag charge should double.

Tesco have. They don't sell 5p bags now. Only 10p

[rob1966]

This. I've cut so many things from my shop over the past few years over packaging. So much of it is completely needless. I only buy loose fruit n veg and bring my own bags for it. If I can help it, I buy local stuff that has travelled less.

We're not perfect but we try to be conscientious. Becomes second nature after a while.

Not only am I all for this, I think the plastic bag charge should double.

This has been getting on my nerves for ages now, its ridiculous the amount of unnecessary packaging that is added to things you buy. My youngest asked me yesterday why there was two wrappers on a club biscuit. There is a multipack of chocolate bars in the cupboard, so its 6 bars in wrappers, in a large plastic wrapper.

No issue with the bag charge being a quid to be honest, seeing as the bag for life is what it says, then you really only need to spend a fiver one time and that is it. I always take the damaged ones back for an exchange.

[rob1966]

Tesco have. They don't sell 5p bags now. Only 10p

Yep, 9p in the Asda.

[24/7]

This has been getting on my nerves for ages now, its ridiculous the amount of unnecessary packaging that is added to things you buy. My youngest asked me yesterday why there was two wrappers on a club biscuit. There is a multipack of chocolate bars in the cupboard, so its 6 bars in wrappers, in a large plastic wrapper.

No issue with the bag charge being a quid to be honest, seeing as the bag for life is what it says, then you really only need to spend a fiver one time and that is it. I always take the damaged ones back for an exchange.

Did you guys see the Plastic Attack in Keynsham recently? A bunch of shoppers went into a Tesco, bought a bunch of stuff, then stripped out all the unnecessary plastic packaging and left it there for Tesco to deal with. Powerful image. I'll see if I can find the vid.

Here - https://www.facebook.com/bbcradiobristol/videos/1720447941345638/?hc_ref=ARTz8Et6vu9zOjB70oHa7NP9_Q_xpzcAEJt-KWihxnUJ2egMUVNwHdiDxULU3qDKQgI&fref=gs&dti=559494657782470&hc_location=group - dunno how to embed Facebook vidz sorry.....

[Red-Soldier]

Did you guys see the Plastic Attack in Keynsham recently? A bunch of shoppers went into a Tesco, bought a bunch of stuff, then stripped out all the unnecessary plastic packaging and left it there for Tesco to deal with. Powerful image. I'll see if I can find the vid.

Here - https://www.facebook.com/bbcradiobristol/videos/1720447941345638/?hc_ref=ARTz8Et6vu9zOjB70oHa7NP9_Q_xpzcAEJt-KWihxnUJ2egMUVNwHdiDxULU3qDKQgI&fref=gs&dti=559494657782470&hc_location=group - dunno how to embed Facebook vidz sorry.....

We are planning one here as I type

[24/7]

We are planning one here as I type

Good - will you consider joining the "Let's Do It, World!" movement? It's all currently being coordinated through London - I'll put you touch if you like? We're moving towards the World Cleanup Day on Sept 15th, aiming for 5% of the population from over 130 countries taking part in a 5 hour cleanup......

*edit - the Let's Do It UK group is on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/559494657782470/ - apply to join it, get involved, be vocal, doing gets it done and I make no apologies for using this thread as a recruitment ground!

[WhereAngelsPlay]

This. I've cut so many things from my shop over the past few years over packaging. So much of it is completely needless. I only buy loose fruit n veg and bring my own bags for it. If I can help it, I buy local stuff that has travelled less.

We're not perfect but we try to be conscientious. Becomes second nature after a while.

Not only am I all for this, I think the plastic bag charge should double.

Same here and always take the scissors to any packaging that animals could caught up in (packets and whatnot).I also put any smaller stuff like rolled up clingfilm into beer or pop cans,hopefully any pollution when they recycle the cans gets caught in the filters.

[redbyrdz]

Same here and always take the scissors to any packaging that animals could caught up in (packets and whatnot).I also put any smaller stuff like rolled up clingfilm into beer or pop cans,hopefully any pollution when they recycle the cans gets caught in the filters.

Don't think that is a good idea. The metal cans are easy to sort out of the rest of the recycling waste, but if they are filled with plastic or paper, they will likely count as contaminated and can't be recycled properly. Don't think clingfilm can go into the recycling anyway?

[redbyrdz]

The reason I'd have to make additional trips is because the wife, as she works 6 hours a day and is home for 1, does all the shopping. However, as she walks (she rarely takes the car) she would either forget to take the recycling or not bother and leave it for me (one of our main causes of arguments is she does everything while I tippy tappy on the laptop), so it would be my job. Sometimes she doesn't go directly to the shops, she will go to visit her Dad in the nursing home, she won't want to walk 2 miles there with the empties, visit him, than walk a mile back to the shops.

Sounds like a domestic argument. Best not get involved!

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Don't think that is a good idea. The metal cans are easy to sort out of the rest of the recycling waste, but if they are filled with plastic or paper, they will likely count as contaminated and can't be recycled properly.

My rationalising of doing it is that when they are melted any gases from said plastics are caught in the filters.to be honest though I would do it anyway because I would sooner those cans and plastic be stuck in landfill than in any animals throat and gut.

But I do get your point.

[rob1966]

Sounds like a domestic argument. Best not get involved!

We have loads of those

[24/7]

We have loads of those

You recycle them then..........?

[rob1966]

Did you guys see the Plastic Attack in Keynsham recently? A bunch of shoppers went into a Tesco, bought a bunch of stuff, then stripped out all the unnecessary plastic packaging and left it there for Tesco to deal with. Powerful image. I'll see if I can find the vid.

Here - https://www.facebook.com/bbcradiobristol/videos/1720447941345638/?hc_ref=ARTz8Et6vu9zOjB70oHa7NP9_Q_xpzcAEJt-KWihxnUJ2egMUVNwHdiDxULU3qDKQgI&fref=gs&dti=559494657782470&hc_location=group - dunno how to embed Facebook vidz sorry.....

Good on them.

Took the lad the Asda on the way back from the recycling centre, he wanted a Lego set. Its not a large set by any means, inside the pieces are in 3 plastic bags and then there were 4 smaller bags inside the main bags, 7 bags in total, plus the box it came in. No need for that.

You recycle them then..........?

[PaulF]

Did you guys see the Plastic Attack in Keynsham recently? A bunch of shoppers went into a Tesco, bought a bunch of stuff, then stripped out all the unnecessary plastic packaging and left it there for Tesco to deal with. Powerful image. I'll see if I can find the vid.

Here - https://www.facebook.com/bbcradiobristol/videos/1720447941345638/?hc_ref=ARTz8Et6vu9zOjB70oHa7NP9_Q_xpzcAEJt-KWihxnUJ2egMUVNwHdiDxULU3qDKQgI&fref=gs&dti=559494657782470&hc_location=group - dunno how to embed Facebook vidz sorry.....

I kind of get that, but would we buy penguin bars in sixes if they were loose in boxes. I suppose they are in six or nine or whatever to sell more.

[24/7]

I kind of get that, but would we buy penguin bars in sixes if they were loose in boxes. I suppose they are in six or nine or whatever to sell more.

In sixes for good reason. One per day in yer packed lunch, 2 on a Friday if you've been good!

[rob1966]

I kind of get that, but would we buy penguin bars in sixes if they were loose in boxes. I suppose they are in six or nine or whatever to sell more.

That's my thinking, it's all about the money.

Since the demise of local markets (ours is getting replaced by some hip eating area development) most fruit and veg is sold prepackaged. I always buy stuff like peppers, onions, apples and bananas loose, but you cannot get stuff like strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, mushrooms etc loose.

[PaulF]

I like the handy sized produce bags. So for apples, pears, oranges we could wrap them in string net bags easily enough. Berries though, a bit harder. Id imagine a lot would get squished if sold loose and maybe a few eaten if nobody to watch. What would a matket stall sell them in, punnets I guess. Which could easily be paper/card. Again I wonder how many times we can recycle card. I'm not against reducing plastic usage, just trying to figure out how different the alternatives would be.

[rafathegaffa83]

Did you guys see the Plastic Attack in Keynsham recently? A bunch of shoppers went into a Tesco, bought a bunch of stuff, then stripped out all the unnecessary plastic packaging and left it there for Tesco to deal with. Powerful image. I'll see if I can find the vid.

Here - https://www.facebook.com/bbcradiobristol/videos/1720447941345638/?hc_ref=ARTz8Et6vu9zOjB70oHa7NP9_Q_xpzcAEJt-KWihxnUJ2egMUVNwHdiDxULU3qDKQgI&fref=gs&dti=559494657782470&hc_location=group - dunno how to embed Facebook vidz sorry.....

I'm always irked by the layers of 'security plastic' on things like headphones that require a sharp pair of scissors or a Stanley knife to open. So wasteful and unneccessary.

[stoa]

I've just had a look in my 3/4 full black recycling bin. Without moving anything I counted a fivers worth of bottles at 20p a bottle. Thinking about the amount of canned and bottled stuff we go through, we could be looking at £30 a month added to our food bills..

It's not 30 quid each month on top of your food bill, because you're forgetting that you'll be getting your money back. For example, you go to the shop and buy a bottle of water. The deposit is 50p. You take the bottle home, drink the water and get a new bottle two days later. You take the old bottle back get your 50p back and that's the deposit for the new bottle paid. You take that home, drink it and two days later you take it back to the shop. As things stand, you've decided you are not thirsty, so you'll only buy a packet of crisps. When you pay, the 50p you paid as deposit for the bottle you've returned will reduce the price of your crisps. You've not lost any money.

The argument about this making things more expensive for people or a pain in the arse seems to be a bit far fetched in my view. Could be though that we have the same system for glass bottles and I'm used to that from when I was a child.

And I don't think it is just about getting those bottles back. It's also about raising awareness for recycling...

[coolbyrne]

Those over a certain age will remember we used to do this with glass bottles.

Confession time: My friend and I would go around to houses, pretending we were doing a bottle drive for the Brownies, then take the bottles to the neighbourhood corner store and buy candy. 10 cents for small glass bottles, 30 cents for the larger ones.

[Mutton Geoff]

interesting byproduct might be some plastic bottle bullying by an enterprising kid in school.

[Elmo!]

No idea on bottles, but aluminium in infinitely recycleable.

The reason most milk bottles have the handle is on the corner of the bottle is because each time it is recycled, the plastic gets weaker, and having the handle on the corner makes it structurally stronger, so you can recycle the plastic more times before it is too weak.

[rob1966]

It's not 30 quid each month on top of your food bill, because you're forgetting that you'll be getting your money back. For example, you go to the shop and buy a bottle of water. The deposit is 50p. You take the bottle home, drink the water and get a new bottle two days later. You take the old bottle back get your 50p back and that's the deposit for the new bottle paid. You take that home, drink it and two days later you take it back to the shop. As things stand, you've decided you are not thirsty, so you'll only buy a packet of crisps. When you pay, the 50p you paid as deposit for the bottle you've returned will reduce the price of your crisps. You've not lost any money.

The argument about this making things more expensive for people or a pain in the arse seems to be a bit far fetched in my view. Could be though that we have the same system for glass bottles and I'm used to that from when I was a child.

And I don't think it is just about getting those bottles back. It's also about raising awareness for recycling...

As I pointed out though, I already have a dedicated bin that caters for cans and bottles. Our council gives us 4 bins, Blue for paper and card, Black for recycleable cans and bottles, green for food and garden waste and grey for non recycleable. So I (and millions of others) are basically being forced to ignore the bins that the council have already invested time and money in, which are taken away for recycling at dedicated facilities, and instead return stuff to the shop - it's still achieving the same end result. Can you see my point on this?

I'm all for this btw, when out with the kids and we grab a bottle of water or whatever to drink, we will immediately return it to the shop, so I will get my money back, this I think is fantastic, but seeing as our domestic waste is already catered for, I see downsides.

People keep quoting Germany etc. I lived/worked in Berlin for a month in 2002 and was shocked how far ahead of us they were on recycling at work, I can remember a variety of bins at the back of the office. Now, I don't remember the collection machines being in the shops, so I would like to know, did they replace the bin system with the deposit system, or was that how they started? The UK already recycles 8.5 billion cans, so that is a massive change that is being required from millions of householders.

[24/7]

The UK already recycles 8.5 billion cans, so that is a massive change that is being required from millions of householders.

It also places 15,000,000 plastic bottles into landfill or incineration. Every day. Every DAY! We have a long way to go......hopefully this scheme will make a significant dent in that wastage. "It's only waste when it's wasted!"

[BarryCrocker]

It also places 15,000,000 plastic bottles into landfill or incineration. Every day. Every DAY! We have a long way to go......hopefully this scheme will make a significant dent in that wastage. "It's only waste when it's wasted!"

Soft drink and bottled water companies are the biggest contributors so the government should tax them for whatever non-recyclable waste their products contribute towards.

They should also install more public water refill stations (like Manly Beach in Sydney) and offer VAT exemptions to drinking containers/bottles like CamelBak or Klean Kanteen.

I drink about 1-2 litres of water a day while I'm on the road to work and I've used the same CamelBak bottle everyday.

[rob1966]

It also places 15,000,000 plastic bottles into landfill or incineration. Every day. Every DAY! We have a long way to go......hopefully this scheme will make a significant dent in that wastage. "It's only waste when it's wasted!"

Massive problem, but like Barry says below your post, the drinks companies need to take responsibility. EG Coke - they use aluminium cans for the 330ml drinks, why can't they and the can manufacturers, come up with a 1 or 2 ltr can to replace the big plastic bottles? Sometimes I'll pick up a trailer from Coke with 30,000 kg of soft drinks and it will all be 2ltr plastic bottles.

My kids have a plastic bottle each that I bought from Asda, fill it with water from the tap and re-use it until its knackered. I've got a plastic water bottle on my desk that I re-use for water from the cooler.

[rafathegaffa83]

Massive problem, but like Barry says below your post, the drinks companies need to take responsibility. EG Coke - they use aluminium cans for the 330ml drinks, why can't they and the can manufacturers, come up with a 1 or 2 ltr can to replace the big plastic bottles? 

Presumably because once you open the can you have to consume it within a short period of time as it loses its fizz. I can't see there being a market for even a 1L can unless carbonation technology has some major breakthrough in which it retains the fizz/doesn't go flat for days on end. It would also require some type of resealable can to prevent spillage. I honestly wonder if glass bottles would make a return if some sort of tax/lower Pfand were to be implemented on plastic bottles