Author Topic: Churchill  (Read 36113 times)

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Churchill
« on: January 22, 2018, 03:53:03 pm »
There's a movie out and all, which is why some dear heart decided to educate people about Mr Churchill.

https://twitter.com/ireland/status/954792642327523329

I've left out some bits for reasons of time and space as much as anything, but feel free to peruse the link.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Well start with Afghanistan. While he was there Churchill discovered his passion for war and viewed the Pashtuns as beneath him. Going so far as saying that “all who resist will be killed without quarter.” That they “needed to recognise the superiority of race”.

He wrote about how
“We systematically, village by village destroyed the houses, filled up the wells, blew down the towers, cut down the great shady trees, burned the crops and broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation”

The glee and pride is palpable. He also spoke of how “Every tribesman caught was speared or cut down at once”

Let’s move to Greece.

Under the orders of Churchill, the British Army opened fire on protestors on the streets of Athens in 1944. 28 were killed and there was over 120 injured.

British demanded that all protesters/guerilla groups were to disarm immediately

Anybody want to guess what happened next?

The following day 200,000 people took to the streets in a riot and this is when the army turned on the people and fired. Under Churchill’s orders.

See he haaaaated ELAS and EAM. (These guys literally ran Nazis out of the country)

So before my mentions start filling up with people defending him saying BUT WHAT ABOUT WORLD WAR II??????!
These actions here show how they were motivated solely by the paranoia fear and hatred for communism.

See, Churchill’s whole plan for Greece was to restore the monarchy and Soviet forces were well received in Greece.
He backed the right wing government that came in because of course he did. Even though it was THAT VERY RESISTANCE that drove Nazis from Greece??

Then tonlut a cherry on top he appoints Charles Wickham to head up the training of the Greek security police.
Anybody know who Charles Wickham is?
He was a commander of the RUC between 1922-1945 in British occupied Ireland.
In other words, a prick.

India.

This is where his dark side is just unfor-fucking-givable.
He orchestrated a mass genocide in Bengal.

It was a “famine” in the same sense that we had a “famine” over here.
He starved over 4 million Bengalis in 1943.
“I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion”

They literally took boats full of rice from starving people to ship to the Middle East where it wasn’t even needed? When they asked for food Churchill said that the famine was their own fault for “breeding like rabbits”

I mean his attitude was so horrible that Leo Amery, British Secretary of State in India , said that he “didn’t see much difference between his outlook and Hitlers”
Churchill refused all aid to Bengal. Canada and US offered rice and he refused.

Kenya.

Churchill believed in protecting the institutionalised racism spread through their colonies to exploit the population and take their resources.
Obviously believed the fertile highlands were for white colonial settlers. He forcibly removed the local population

And here’s one for you all. Over 150,000 men women and children were forced into concentration camps.

Yep. You read that right.

Rape castrations cigarettes electric shocks and fire were all used by the Brits to torture Kenyans all under Churchill’s rule.
Remember when Obama sent back the bust of Churchill? His grandad was tortured under the British army.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,656
Re: Churchill
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2018, 04:10:28 pm »
Should all that stop people celebrating, depicting or appreciating his role as PM at the time?

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 04:15:40 pm »
Should all that stop people celebrating, depicting or appreciating his role as PM at the time?

Depends on who you are. I can't see too many Kenyans, Bengalis or Afghans appreciating his role as PM.

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,044
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: Churchill
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2018, 04:24:56 pm »
A rebuttal to the Bengal Famine accusations from his official biographers:

https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/did-churchill-cause-the-bengal-famine/

Not my area of expertise, but that area of you account is contested.

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2018, 04:25:13 pm »

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2018, 04:25:14 pm »
Depends on who you are. I can't see too many Kenyans, Bengalis or Afghans appreciating his role as PM.

Or British miners.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,656
Re: Churchill
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 04:27:06 pm »
Depends on who you are. I can't see too many Kenyans, Bengalis or Afghans appreciating his role as PM.

Certainly not and i dont think they are.

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,146
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: Churchill
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2018, 04:30:41 pm »
Or British miners.

I'm certainly not a Churchill hagiographer but at least miners in this country could continue to strike.

Don't think there were that many strikes in the 3rd Reich and I'm sure if they had invaded trade unionists would have been first to the camps.

Again not supporting all the wrong Churchill was guilty of (including his incompetence over Gallipolli) but if it hadn't of been for his leadership and that of the incomparably more evil Stalin we would probably have become, at gthe east, a pupper state of Nazi Germany.

Offline HarryLabrador

  • went broke, so had to get the retrievers in.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,263
Re: Churchill
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2018, 04:34:01 pm »
Here's a more "respectable" source for the OP info.

I certainly won't be watching the film.

Here's an article I came across a while back:
Not his finest hour: The dark side of Winston Churchill
SoS Membership Number: 387

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,907
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2018, 04:35:22 pm »
While I would be no means absolve Churchill (the link also misses out Churchill’s actions during the 1926 general strike), the truth is that just about any leader/government from that time isn’t much better. In the US segregation, the KKK, burning crosses and lynching were all tolerated by successive governments and leaders of the era, the French and Belgians weren’t weren’t much better in Africa and Asia then the British, and that’s without even going into the Germans and Soviets obviously.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,656
Re: Churchill
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2018, 04:36:36 pm »
I certainly won't be watching the film.

Here's an article I came across a while back:
Not his finest hour: The dark side of Winston Churchill

Why not?

Offline stevensr123

  • bedwetter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,794
Re: Churchill
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 04:44:28 pm »
I for one think he is a legend and very happy he was our prime minister  .

The alternative is far more scary to think about.





and I'm sure the many MILLIONS of people and Jewish people are very happy as well. But obviously it depends on what "side" you was on back then. Still I get the feeling a lot of young people these days place todays ethics and place them in the past, where it was completely different times, so its hard to judge certain people.

Cant wait to watch the film  :wave

« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 04:47:38 pm by stevensr123 »
PUSSY cat, PUSSY cat, I love you,  yes I do.......

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,328
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Churchill
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 04:46:26 pm »
Any film about Churchill during the war years will document someone who lead a country with incredible determination, and incredible effectiveness.

It’s overstating the issue to say he was what stood between Britain and a ‘negotiated peace’ (a Vichy UK if you like), but he was certainly the main protagonist in stopping it.  It is not unreasonable to suggest that the course of the war may well have been very very different without him, and hence the outcome of the history of Europe.

As such, he is one of recent history’s truly great characters, truely great leaders.  As such, any film about the events of the time is of huge interest... he was a pivotal figure in our history.

Not watching a film about these events is a churlish and blinkered approach in my opinion...


But that doesn’t and shouldn’t detract from the other awful events in his history, and neither should it.  It would be nice to see a film that painted the picture of other aspects of his history. I’m sure that at some point it will come (I’d like to hope so anyway).

The trend here is that Great War leaders also tend to been horrific bastards as well. You can all the way back to Alexander for examples of this.....

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline HarryLabrador

  • went broke, so had to get the retrievers in.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,263
Re: Churchill
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2018, 04:47:14 pm »
Why not?

Seriously, I know most will disagree, but I think he sounds more like Trump at times than Churchill. The incredible makeup looks too unnatural and it might as well be a robot. As much as I like Gary Oldman, do we need another Churchill movie?
SoS Membership Number: 387

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2018, 04:47:33 pm »
I for one think he is a legend and very happy he was our prime minister  .

The alternative is far more scary to think about.

Did you read the OP? Churchill had concentration camps in Kenya. His own Sec State for India said he was basically like Hitler.


Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2018, 04:49:20 pm »
Also, do English people think Churchill won WWII singlehandedly? Or that with literally anyone else at the helm, the war would have been lost?

Offline stevensr123

  • bedwetter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,794
Re: Churchill
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2018, 04:50:30 pm »
Did you read the OP? Churchill had concentration camps in Kenya. His own Sec State for India said he was basically like Hitler.


Gonna read through it soon, although I know a lot about his history and his shady past. still he played a massive part in saving millions of people - not to justify  anything he might of done-  but I truly appreciate what he and the people of the past did to stop a truly evil person and government. 
PUSSY cat, PUSSY cat, I love you,  yes I do.......

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,656
Re: Churchill
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2018, 04:51:49 pm »
Also, do English people think Churchill won WWII singlehandedly? Or that with literally anyone else at the helm, the war would have been lost?

But he was the leader at the time and it was a relatively successful defence.

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,328
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Churchill
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2018, 04:51:49 pm »
Also, do English people think Churchill won WWII singlehandedly? Or that with literally anyone else at the helm, the war would have been lost?
Of course not.  But there were many other people who could have lead Britain for whom a negotiated peace would have been the outcome.  Even under Churchill’s watch it was a distinct possibly.

 A case I think of him being a bastard, but at least he was our bastard..  to use a football analogy
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2018, 04:52:48 pm »
A case I think of him being a bastard, but at least he was our bastard..  to use a football analogy

Your very own Souness?

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,656
Re: Churchill
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2018, 04:53:20 pm »
Seriously, I know most will disagree, but I think he sounds more like Trump at times than Churchill. The incredible makeup looks too unnatural and it might as well be a robot. As much as I like Gary Oldman, do we need another Churchill movie?

But its out there an apparently entertaining. If your avoiding it because its not your thing then its fine but its a bit odd in this case if people dont watch it because of Churchill’s history.

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2018, 04:55:10 pm »
But its out there an apparently entertaining. If your avoiding it because its not your thing then its fine but its a bit odd in this case if people dont watch it because of Churchill’s history.

A bit like watching a movie which celebrated Stalin's mighty triumph over the Nazis but didn't deal with anything else in his history?

Offline Ray K

  • Loves a shiny helmet. The new IndyKalia.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,830
  • Truthiness
Re: Churchill
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2018, 04:56:36 pm »
Also, do English people think Churchill won WWII singlehandedly? Or that with literally anyone else at the helm, the war would have been lost?

There's a good chance that there would have been a negotiated surrender post Dunkirk/Fall of France without him.  Lord Halifax (The Foreign Sec) certainly pushed strongly for it, and Clement Attlee's support for Churchill was enough to prevent Halifax's position from winning.
"We have to change from doubters to believers"

Twitter: @rjkelly75

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,328
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Churchill
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2018, 04:56:58 pm »
Your very own Souness?
Possibly, and quite probably what was needed at the time..

Not that many people know of the other side of his exploits however.. knowing it doesn’t really detract from his achievements in WWII, but puts it in a different light
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Online Djozer

  • Ujpest
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,535
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Churchill
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2018, 05:00:14 pm »
Of course not.  But there were many other people who could have lead Britain for whom a negotiated peace would have been the outcome.  Even under Churchill’s watch it was a distinct possibly.

 A case I think of him being a bastard, but at least he was our bastard..  to use a football analogy
I kind of get your point, but it may be an English point (no offence, you poor fuckers can't help your nationality  ;)) . There's a lot of genuine hatred for him in Wales. I was working down near Brecon a few years ago and in my local down there instead of a dartboard at the end of the occy they had a portrait of his face over which the outline of a dartboard had been drawn in pen.

Make of that what you will, but you won't find many of us revering the prick. So he made a few speeches during the war? Big fucking deal. Every wartime leader gets deified to some extent. In fairness he was a good writer, but that's about as far as my admiration for him will ever extend.

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,328
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Churchill
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 05:04:12 pm »
I kind of get your point, but it may be an English point (no offence, you poor fuckers can't help your nationality  ;)) . There's a lot of genuine hatred for him in Wales. I was working down near Brecon a few years ago and in my local down there instead of a dartboard at the end of the occy they had a portrait of his face over which the outline of a dartboard had been drawn in pen.

Make of that what you will, but you won't find many of us revering the prick. So he made a few speeches during the war? Big fucking deal. Every wartime leader gets deified to some extent. In fairness he was a good writer, but that's about as far as my admiration for him will ever extend.
In my opinion you enormously  underestimate the effect of a leader on a nation, any leader, any nation.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Johnnyboy1973

  • ★★★ Never, ever, bloody anything ever! ★★★
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,650
  • Up the piss boiling, asthmatic Reds!!!
Re: Churchill
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 05:06:28 pm »
Gonna be a stonker of a thread this
Where's this Yakimoto fella?

Offline oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,450
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Churchill
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 05:06:37 pm »
Surprised his plans for gassing the whole Rhine Valley during the war hasn't been brought up as well.
Churchill was ruthless, he was prepared to use any methods possible to defend the country from Nazi occupation and those methods were revolutionary at the time, plenty of older Generals and politicians would have had us fighting a gentleman's war using old outdated tactics that belonged in the WW1. Churchill appointed the right people, he gave people a chance to use tactics many laughed at, tactics which are now part and parcel of modern warfare. thank god he was about at the time as the Nazi plans for this country after occupation were horrendous. if the fight was led by the old fashioned politicians and generals then the country we live in today would not exist.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 05:08:14 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,328
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Churchill
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 05:07:40 pm »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Online Djozer

  • Ujpest
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,535
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Churchill
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 05:09:32 pm »
In my opinion you enormously  underestimate the effect of a leader on a nation, any leader, any nation.
Possibly, man, and I may be letting my ingrained Welsh bitterness influence my judgement as well. I just think that any leader during a military conflict, provided they act in a suitably belligerent fashion and use appropriately thunderous language, will end up being revered far beyond their actual worth as a person - see Dubya after the September 11th attacks and at the beginning of the Iraq war, until it was revealed that the pretext for that incursion was a pile of bullshit.

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 05:17:01 pm »
Gonna be a stonker of a thread this

I haven't even mentioned Ireland yet.

Offline stevensr123

  • bedwetter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,794
Re: Churchill
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2018, 05:23:38 pm »
I haven't even mentioned Ireland yet.
good old "neutral" Ireland?  :P  ;)
PUSSY cat, PUSSY cat, I love you,  yes I do.......

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,907
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2018, 05:26:30 pm »
Also, do English people think Churchill won WWII singlehandedly? Or that with literally anyone else at the helm, the war would have been lost?

It would have been over before it even started with Chamberlain, of that much I think most British people who know anything about the war will agree on.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline TravisBickle

  • KnowsVotersAreFickle!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,808
  • RAWK n' Roll
Re: Churchill
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2018, 05:33:35 pm »
While I would be no means absolve Churchill (the link also misses out Churchill’s actions during the 1926 general strike), the truth is that just about any leader/government from that time isn’t much better. In the US segregation, the KKK, burning crosses and lynching were all tolerated by successive governments and leaders of the era, the French and Belgians weren’t weren’t much better in Africa and Asia then the British, and that’s without even going into the Germans and Soviets obviously.

 I don't buy this argument at all. It essentially suggests that there were homogenous opinions on issues such as imperialism and slavery so the people supporting such positions can be forgiven. They were just "products of their time." Except they weren't because differing opinions most definitely existed within society, which is the exact reason the Empire ended and slaves were freed in America. Things were the way they were back then because of men like Churchill. He wasn't simply existing in a colonial world, he was passionately fighting to keep it that way.

 Churchill was the most thuggish of imperialists. He made Enoch Powell, a man considered by many to be one of the most evil racists in British history, look positively liberal when it came to issues of race and Empire. Churchill was a thug and a racist and he shouldn't get a pass as a result of the fact those opinions were more acceptable (though still hotly contested by decent people in both parties) when he was alive.

 He was a wanker in all honesty. Nick Griffin wasn't entirely wrong when he said if Churchill were alive today he'd be pretty closely aligned with the BNP.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 05:36:34 pm by TravisBickle »
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,328
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Churchill
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2018, 05:36:50 pm »
I haven't even mentioned Ireland yet.
Oh Christ, he cheated at golf too?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2018, 05:38:22 pm »
good old "neutral" Ireland?  :P  ;)

Yeah, that's a funny one. Any idea why we were neutral?

Online Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,487
  • The first five yards........
Re: Churchill
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2018, 05:38:48 pm »
As indictments of Churchill go that OP is about as weak and unreasonable as any I've read.

I'm certainly no Churchill fan, and still break into a smile whenever I think of the British people voting him out in 1945, but it's ridiculously easy for semi-educated people to talk absolute nonsense about the man.

I haven't even mentioned Ireland yet.

Let me give you a hand. The only country in the world to offer condolences to the German embassy on the day Hitler died. Churchill's policy and the Royal Navy kept Ireland free from invasion from the Nazis and allowed the Irish government the luxury of being 'neutral'.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Online Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,487
  • The first five yards........
Re: Churchill
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2018, 05:41:30 pm »
He was a wanker in all honesty. Nick Griffin wasn't entirely wrong when he said if Churchill were alive today he'd be pretty closely aligned with the BNP.

Another stupid and self-serving comment form a tin-pot fascist desperate to appear 'Churchillian'. Why didn't Churchill join Oswald Mosley and the BUF?
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,907
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2018, 05:44:17 pm »
I don't buy this argument at all. It essentially suggests that there were homogenous opinions on issues such as imperialism and slavery so the people supporting such positions can be forgiven. They were just "products of their time." Except they weren't because differing opinions most definitely existed within society, which is the exact reason the Empire ended and slaves were freed in America. Things were the way they were back then because of men like Churchill. He wasn't simply existing in a colonial world, he was passionately fighting to keep it that way.

 Churchill was the most thuggish of imperialists. He made Enoch Powell, a man considered by many to be one of the most evil racists in British history, look positively liberal when it came to issues of race and Empire. Churchill was a thug and a racist and he shouldn't get a pass as a result of the fact those opinions were more acceptable (though still hotly contested by decent people in both parties) when he was alive.

 He was a wanker in all honesty. Nick Griffin wasn't entirely wrong when he said if Churchill were alive today he'd be pretty closely aligned with the BNP.

As usual you have totally misunderstood/misrepresented what I have said gone off on a total tangent.

The point I was trying to make is that he was a bastard, as were most leaders of the time. There were no real hero’s from that era. I made no mentions of society’s views or suggested that there wasn’t opposing views.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Churchill
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2018, 05:46:55 pm »
Let me give you a hand. The only country in the world to offer condolences to the German embassy on the day Hitler died. Churchill's policy and the Royal Navy kept Ireland free from invasion from the Nazis and allowed the Irish government the luxury of being 'neutral'.

Let me respond in kind. Here's De Valera's version.....

"In his speech celebrating the Allied victory in Europe (13 May 1945) Winston Churchill remarked that he had demonstrated restraint towards Ireland because

'we never laid a violent hand upon them, which at times would have been quite easy and quite natural.'

Britain had occupied neutral Iceland in May 1940. In a response a few days later, de Valera acknowledged that Churchill did not add 'another horrid chapter to the already bloodstained record' of Anglo-Irish relations, but asked:

“   …could he not find in his heart the generosity to acknowledge that there is a small nation that stood alone, not for one year or two, but for several hundred years against aggression…a small nation that could never be got to accept defeat and has never surrendered her soul?   ”

In addition, he put the following, that

“I would like to put a hypothetical question-it is a question I have put to many Englishmen since the last war. Suppose Germany had won the war, had invaded and occupied England, and that after a long lapse of time and many bitter struggles, she was finally brought to acquiesce in admitting England's right to freedom, and let England go, but not the whole of England, all but, let us say, the six southern counties.

These six southern counties, those, let us suppose, commanding the entrance to the narrow seas, Germany had singled out and insisted on holding herself with a view to weakening England as a whole, and maintaining the securing of her own communications through the Straits of Dover.

Let us suppose further, that after all this had happened, Germany was engaged in a great war in which she could show that she was on the side of freedom of a number of small nations, would Mr. Churchill as an Englishman who believed that his own nation had as good a right to freedom as any other, not freedom for a part merely, but freedom for the whole-would he, whilst Germany still maintained the partition of his country and occupied six counties of it, would he lead this partitioned England to join with Germany in a crusade? I do not think Mr. Churchill would.

Would he think the people of partitioned England an object of shame if they stood neutral in such circumstances? I do not think Mr. Churchill would."


I have my own version but I like you, Yorky, and my version is really quite fucking offensive.