Topic: Match Preview: EFL Cup Leicester v Liverpool FC @ the King Power 19/9/17 7.45

[JackWard33]

And yet in 2001 we won this trophy before going on to win the FA Cup, UEFA Cup and finishing third in the league. Almost as if winning that trophy gave us the belief and confidence to improve...........

Yeah I mean this is just selective post rationalising one season of results though isn't it.
Plenty of clubs have won the league cup and gone on to achieve nothing. What did we win after winning it in 2012? I must haver missed Swansea's run up the league and true arrival as a 'winning club' with a 'winning mentality' after their triumph etc etc

You think professional players are so frail that they're in a tight game in FA cup and they think 'I can do this I recently won the league cup'. You think United were in the Europa final last year thinking 'it's been a tight first ten minutes but we won the league cup so I'm not worried'.

The league cup confers no extra benefit on a team or a club than winning the league cup. If that's something you want to do and target as a club then cool - but let's not pretend its a gateway to anything else.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Yeah I mean this is just selective post rationalising one season of results though isn't it.

Perhaps you should read the post I was replying to and you'd have seen I did that in response to them doing the same.

[peachybum]

We've won one trophy in the last ten years so haven't had the 'distraction' of the cup games in nine seasons yet we haven't finished top four in each of those seasons so it's hard to make any correlation between too many cup games and finishing top four.

It's not like we've been knocked out in the first round in every cup we haven't won. We've had long cup runs in trophy less season's you know.

[Crosby Nick]

The league cup in 2012 was fuck all help to us.  I enjoyed it (apart from Adam's penalty), but it has no long-term bearing on where the club is going.

The last time we reached the final of this thing and finished in the top 4 was 2001.  It's almost like - and hear me out - the extra games in this thing are actually detrimental to our league position.

Not sure about that. In 2003 we won it, didn't get far in the FA Cup so didn't have a lot of games. Not making top 4 was more down to the horrendous run of form in the winter.

In 2005 not making top 4 was far more down to European distractions and resting players before those big knockout games.

In 2012 we just fell to pieces in the second half of the season really, again don't think you can pin it on the League Cup run, especially as we had no Europe.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Yeah I mean this is just selective post rationalising one season of results though isn't it.
Plenty of clubs have won the league cup and gone on to achieve nothing. What did we win after winning it in 2012? I must haver missed Swansea's run up the league and true arrival as a 'winning club' with a 'winning mentality' after their triumph etc etc

You think professional players are so frail that they're in a tight game in FA cup and they think 'I can do this I recently won the league cup'. You think United were in the Europa final last year thinking 'it's been a tight first ten minutes but we won the league cup so I'm not worried'.

The league cup confers no extra benefit on a team or a club than winning the league cup. If that's something you want to do and target as a club then cool - but let's not pretend its a gateway to anything else.

I think there's a middle ground between the two points here in all honesty. The bold, for example, you don't know that not to be the case. Don't forget they won the FA Cup in 2016 too, having not won a trophy since the league in 2013. Look at Arsenal as well: they win one FA Cup and you see the release in that squad which enables them to go on and win two or three more. (Of course, it hasn't really changed much for them in terms of the league or the CL, but that's partly a quality issue. Those wins may well help them go on to win the Europa League this season given that it's a competition where they're actually probably the highest quality side in it at the moment.)

Equally there's a legitimate argument that, had we got over the line in the League Cup final eighteen months ago, maybe we also do so in the Europa League final a few months later. The anxieties within our players as a result of falling short in that final, and indeed within our manager for falling short in many more, are/were probably very real.

We've also fallen short in several semi-finals under Brendan and most of those players are still here. I think it's an issue which can only really be rectified by getting over the line.

For me it's all a risk/reward thing. Do I think winning the League Cup is worth playing your first-team players the whole way through the autumn/winter period with important league and now CL matches to win? Absolutely not. I wouldn't even think of winning the League Cup until you're in the semi-final in January. From that point it's three games to win a trophy. If our group of players can't handle that in a month where you've only got league matches and the first two rounds of the FA Cup (which should be treated with equal disdain to the early rounds of the League Cup anyway) without knackering themselves out then frankly I would question whether they should be at a club of our size.

[JackWard33]

I think there's a middle ground between the two points here in all honesty. The bold, for example, you don't know that not to be the case. That group of United players, on the whole, are/were actually fairly inexperienced in such matches. We have a tendency to think of United as a trophy winning machine because we were used to it for 20 years but, actually, I think that League Cup win was their first trophy since winning the league in 2013. It was almost certainly a big moment for them as a squad even if the League Cup isn't a big trophy per se.

Equally there's a legitimate argument that, had we got over the line in the League Cup final eighteen months ago, maybe we also do so in the Europa League final a few months later. The anxieties within our players as a result of falling short in that final, and indeed within our manager for falling short in many more, are/were probably very real.

We've also fallen short in several semi-finals under Brendan and most of those players are still here. I think it's an issue. Look at Arsenal: they win one FA Cup and you see the release in that squad which enables them to go on and win two or three more. (Of course, it hasn't really changed much for them in terms of the league or the CL, but that's partly a quality issue. Those wins may well help them go on to win the Europa League this season given that it's a competition where they're actually probably the highest quality side in it at the moment.)

For me it's all a risk/reward thing. Do I think winning the League Cup is worth playing your first-team players the whole way through the autumn/winter period with important league and now CL matches? Absolutely not. I wouldn't even think of winning the League Cup until you're in the semi-final in January. From that point it's three games to win a trophy. If our group of players can't handle that in a month where you've only got league matches and the first two rounds of the FA Cup (which should be treated with equal disdain to the early rounds of the League Cup anyway) without knackering themselves out then frankly I would question whether they should be at a club of our size.

We lost the europa final because Sevilla were a better team than us - I didn't see any evidence of anxiety...saw lots of evidence of their midfield dominating our midfield. United won the Europa final because they were a better team than Ajax
Debating what's in players heads and whether it has a positive affect on performance is fun but ultimately fruitless and not provable either way (I could argue the 2012 league cup win made us over confident and too relaxed for the FA cup).... most of the time football just comes down to talent and fitness.

Bottom line is this season sees the most congested winter campaign of fixtures possibly ever - the run of games across Nov/Dec/Jan is insane.
I've long believed that the club should have stated aims and priorities for the season. They almost certainly exist at board level, they're probably agreed with Klopp but who knows.
No team has ever successfully competed on 4 fronts in the modern era so entering a season as if you are - as we seem to do every year - is repeatedly banging your head against the same immovable wall.
Personally I'd give everything in service to the league campaign - but that's just me. If we want to make the domestic cups the target as they're the most winnable then that's fine too but you've got to choose

[disgraced cake]

Ward

Flanno     Gomez     Klavan     Moreno

Can
Grujic     Coutinho

Chamberlain     Solanke     Woodburn


---

Would leave a strong team for the weekend, which is a more important game, but I'd like to see what a team like that could do tonight. Not sure how much depth Leicester have or what they'll do ahead of Saturday's match, which you'd imagine is much more important for them too.

Think if we come up against a heavily rotated team we might be alright, but if they opt for a lot of first-teamers it'll be a struggle and I can see us going out.

Whatever happens it'll be good to see the likes of Ward show what he can do, and Grujic could use the minutes as well.

Looking forward to this.

[Kelvinlfc]

Hoping we give Joe Gomez a try next to Matip at centre back and see how he does.

Other players I'd like to see included from the start are Ward, Woodburn, Grujic, Solanke & Ox.

[Klippity Klopp]

Really disappointed Ejaria played last night.

Tonight is the type of game he should be starting in.

He's just stagnating in the U23s, like we did with Suso in the past.  At least Suso got chances in the league cup.

Coutinho should be on the bench if needed.  Not starting over Ejaria.  Not even sure Grujic should start over him.

I don't like our treatment of the player, I didn't like our treatment of Suso and now Milan are reaping the rewards by giving him a chance.

Maybe Klopp doesn't rate him as highly as I do, but for me he's one of our most promising youngsters along with Woodburn and TAA.

If we aren't going to give them chances - like we are with Woodburn, TAA, Gomez etc.  Then Ejaria should be on loan.

[Pistolero]

A trophy when you're on the up like now will do a lot more than a trophy when you're generally going going nowhere (like Arsenal). I think you need a trophy as part of your progression, it would be another milestone achieved.

wise words Gooner, wise words...

[AshLFC]

Intriguing tie this one I think depending on what team they play. They aren't going to win the league again and not get relegated so you'd think they'd play a strongish team. Looking forward to another boss away hopefully.

[Caligula?]

Any ideas as to how Leicester might line up? Is Vardy going to play? He seems to tear us a new one everytime we play at their place.

[David Struhme]

Really disappointed Ejaria played last night.

Tonight is the type of game he should be starting in.

He's just stagnating in the U23s, like we did with Suso in the past.  At least Suso got chances in the league cup.

Coutinho should be on the bench if needed.  Not starting over Ejaria.  Not even sure Grujic should start over him.

I don't like our treatment of the player, I didn't like our treatment of Suso and now Milan are reaping the rewards by giving him a chance.

Maybe Klopp doesn't rate him as highly as I do, but for me he's one of our most promising youngsters along with Woodburn and TAA.

If we aren't going to give them chances - like we are with Woodburn, TAA, Gomez etc.  Then Ejaria should be on loan.

I think if this was a game vs a league 1 or 2 side the likes of Ejaria, Wilson etc may well be starting. But Leicester will be tough game, even if they rest a few players, so we need to play a half decent side tonight. Hopefully if we win and get a kinder draw in the next round we will see more of the u23 players

[jillcwhomever]

Any ideas as to how Leicester might line up? Is Vardy going to play? He seems to tear us a new one everytime we play at their place.

I think Vardy is injured.

[stevieG786]

I want either this or the FA cup this season, please. it's been so long 

[newterp]

I think Vardy is injured.

Good to hear.....

[Aldo96]

I hope Jurgen puts out a team of U23s, U18s, apprentices, tea ladies, etc. If he plays anyone who's stepped on the pitch in the league so far this season I'll be fuming.

And that should be the policy until we get knocked out of this pointless competition. The last thing we need this season is more games, especially in November and December, which is ridiculously busy.

A better policy would probably be not being so negligent in the transfer window so you have a squad big enough to handle busy periods.

[Klippity Klopp]

I think if this was a game vs a league 1 or 2 side the likes of Ejaria, Wilson etc may well be starting. But Leicester will be tough game, even if they rest a few players, so we need to play a half decent side tonight. Hopefully if we win and get a kinder draw in the next round we will see more of the u23 players

I don't like the reasoning.

I don't like the way we are using him and given our history of stagnating promising youngsters like Suso (granted that was pre Klopp), I am fearful of keeping players in the U23 and not letting them get action at a higher level. 

This is a perfect game for Ejaria.  We could lose tonight with or without him.  But the League Cup as nice as it would be to win, is clearly the 4th choice priority for us.  If we don't give him chances in games like this he should be on loan, like Kent, Ojo etc.

[stevensr123]

Of the four trophies that count for anything (FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League, Premiership) it's by far the least respected. It still counts for something though. A reminder that our trophy cabinet for the last TEN YEARS has a solitary league cup in it. We're not better without the league cup... yes we will rest or rotate players but we still go to win. Our squad is big enough (it really is) to play these maximum six extra games competitively

what the fuckity fuck.

How the fuck is winning thins a bad thing, we have won fuck all in ages, the mentality of the team and the fan base shows it. We have become Everton-like. We should be buzzing for a trophy right now.

Don't understand at all this mentality. We are certainly better with a trophy in our cabinet.

 We can't pick and choose what comps to compete in.

[phil236849]

I posted this in the youth thread as there was a discussion re whether Ejaria should play, but it belongs here really:

FWIW I think we will see:

Ward
Milner (TAA needs a rest; not sure Flanno is rated enough to start)
Gomez (needs a run out at CB)
Lovren
Robertson (needs another game)

Hendo (rested on Sat)
Grujic (is starting)
Ox (is starting)

Sturridge (good to get him a game)
Solanke (due a start)
Coutinho (is starting)

[Gonebay]

I am quietly confident about this game. We will rotate heavily but so will Leicester. Our rotated squad is good enough to start every week for Leicester so our 2nd string won't have problems in dispatching their 2nd string. As long as Vardy doesn't start, we have this in the bag. 3-1 to the redmen.

[Nessy76]

I don't like the reasoning.

I don't like the way we are using him and given our history of stagnating promising youngsters like Suso (granted that was pre Klopp), I am fearful of keeping players in the U23 and not letting them get action at a higher level. 

This is a perfect game for Ejaria.  We could lose tonight with or without him.  But the League Cup as nice as it would be to win, is clearly the 4th choice priority for us.  If we don't give him chances in games like this he should be on loan, like Kent, Ojo etc.

Klopp's been quite clear that he wants the U23s to function as a proper team in its own right, and that he sees that as the best way for those lads to get games and still be able to train with the first team squad. It's not an ideal situation, but there is no perfect answer to this.

Selection for this game is going to be a balancing act between putting out a strong enough side to win (can't get my head around Liverpool fans who want Liverpool FC to lose games of football. How does that even work? Will you be cheering for Leicester tonight?) and giving game time to players who we don't want to risk in the league for various reasons (which itself is a fucking good reason for taking part in the thing.) The whole question of "competing on too many fronts" tends to sort itself out in the obvious way, and it's clear that this is our lowest priority. If we were putting out a full strength first team, lads who have played every minute so far then yes, that's a problem, but come on, it's September, if we're running out of legs at this point then something is badly fucked. There is no obvious connection between a run in the cups and a strong league finish, sometimes it correlates, sometimes it doesn't, but dropping out of the League Cup in the 3rd round doesn't guarantee anything - except not winning at least one available trophy.

The goalie situation is an odd one. Klopp wants Mignolet and Karius competing for the place, fine, but then having Ward come in as well? I don't think that's sustainable in the long term. As for the midfield, Grujic is and should be closer to the first team than Ejaria at the moment, so of the two it makes more sense to play him and playing both might leave us more exposed than we need to be.

[fowlermagic]

Hopefully we will see a nice blend of youth with experience tonight as you want to see the likes of Milner, Henderson, matip, even Sturridge out there aiding the younger lads along. A good cup run will only benefit the club long term as our fringe players need games, the young lads need experience and the club as a whole could do with an injection of a trophy in the cabinet. We are not going to win the CL or league to be honest so why not priortise this and the FA Cup especially if we get anywhere near the quarterfinals.

[Lynndenberries]

It seems like we will have a nice balance of youth and experience for this match today. I am looking forward to seeing Oxlade-Chamberlain get a full 90 minutes and Coutinho contribute in a match with less pressure than his previous two appearances. Based on what Klopp mentioned yesterday, this is how I expect us to lineup:

              Ward

TAA Gomez Klavan Robertson

           Henderson

        Grujic Coutinho

     AOC Solanke Woodburn

I assume this will be enough to win against a weakened Leicester side. Last week was a bit rough, although hopefully we can win this match and gain some confidence going into the weekend.

[Schmidt]

Anyone think we'll see a diamond tonight? We're pretty loaded on strikers and don't have a lot of wide players, plus this is an opportunity to give AoC some time in midfield.

Ward
Flanagan Gomez Lovren Robertson
Milner
AoC Grujic
Woodburn
Ings Solanke

[Klippity Klopp]

Klopp's been quite clear that he wants the U23s to function as a proper team in its own right, and that he sees that as the best way for those lads to get games and still be able to train with the first team squad. It's not an ideal situation, but there is no perfect answer to this.

He said that when he arrived.  He preferred keeping the youngsters together and developing them here.

But then he said the U23 league wasn't good enough for them to progress, which we have all seen in the past and he's right.

So he said he changed his stance and would loan players to give them the games and experience needed to progress.  Hence Ojo, Kent (Ward last season) etc going on loans.

I have no issue with keeping the players here as long as they get some first team chances, like TAA, Gomez, Ward, Grujic, Woodburn seem to be getting.  But Ejaria seems to be the fall guy and for me he's one of the most talented and I'd much rather see him play tonight over Coutinho, who is needed in the Premier League & CL games.  For me Coutinho, Salah and some big guns should be on the bench if needed.  Not starting over someone like Ejaria, who now will have a season in the U23s, which I think is not good enough for someone like him. 

[Nessy76]

He said that when he arrived.  He preferred keeping the youngsters together and developing them here.

But then he said the U23 league wasn't good enough for them to progress, which we have all seen in the past and he's right.

So he said he changed his stance and would loan players to give them the games and experience needed to progress.  Hence Ojo, Kent (Ward last season) etc going on loans.

I have no issue with keeping the players here as long as they get some first team chances, like TAA, Gomez, Ward, Grujic, Woodburn seem to be getting.  But Ejaria seems to be the fall guy and for me he's one of the most talented and I'd much rather see him play tonight over Coutinho, who is needed in the Premier League & CL games.  For me Coutinho, Salah and some big guns should be on the bench if needed.  Not starting over someone like Ejaria, who now will have a season in the U23s, which I think is not good enough for someone like him.

I was talking about his words this year, not when he arrived (which were taken massively out of context.)

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

No Bobby F tonight, he's been at it again with the weird outfits on Instagram this afternoon so doesn't look like he's travelled.

[Klippity Klopp]

I was talking about his words this year, not when he arrived (which were taken massively out of context.)

I was talking about both! 

[Clint Eastwood]

The 'Carabao' Cup. Ergh.

[Pistolero]

[The North Bank]

The 'Carabao' Cup. Ergh.

Of all the silly names it's had over the years, this has to be the worst. I wish they'd just call it the league cup, it would feel more prestigious then.

[lessthanmatt]

what the fuckity fuck.

How the fuck is winning thins a bad thing, we have won fuck all in ages, the mentality of the team and the fan base shows it. We have become Everton-like. We should be buzzing for a trophy right now.

Don't understand at all this mentality. We are certainly better with a trophy in our cabinet.

 We can't pick and choose what comps to compete in.

That's what I'm saying

[lamonti]

If winning a trophy is the main aim of the season, this is the easiest one to win.

Alongside the Champions League fixtures and the ridiculous Christmas schedule (worsened by the World Cup year making the season a week shorter) you throw in two extra games into January, another in February, and take on board that every team who has one it has slumped disastrously in April and May in the league.

We'd be in the Europa League for certain, and we'd be massively unlikely to finish in a CL place. So Thursday/Sunday next season and have another tilt at getting back into the CL instead of the title.

You have to weigh it up. It is, realistically, a completely superfluous competition and always has been, and while our history in it may be the best and winning a final at Wembley is great for the fans, it's been a huge drain on our resources for the last two seasons. Is it worth it? Does it get us closer to winning the league? Don't think so. Would treat it accordingly.

[jonnypb]

                            Ward

Flanagan     Gomez     Matip     Robinson

                             Can

                 Grujic     Ox     Woodburn

                    Sturridge  Solanke

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

If winning a trophy is the main aim of the season, this is the easiest one to win.

Surely winning a trophy/some trophies is the main aim of being a football club  . At least that's what I've been led to believe over the decades. Maybe I've been misled somewhere along the line.

[Zebs]

Be honest, if you make it through to the semis, playing a relatively second-string team, you would rather risk losing by continuing to play a second-string squad than fielding your strongest team for three games and possibly winning a trophy?

It's a no-brainer, for a team as trophy-starved as you guys have been in the last ten years, you should be taking any opportunities you can to pick up some silverware. City winning the FA Cup in 2011, while obviously a more prestigious trophy, was definitely the stepping stone to them winning the league in 2012. It gave them a winning mentality and also attracted better players.

Success breeds success.

All that said, I hope Leicester stick a few past you tonight.

[Nessy76]

Of all the silly names it's had over the years, this has to be the worst. I wish they'd just call it the league cup, it would feel more prestigious then.

I think the "Rumbelows Cup" was the nadir. But since the Milk days, there has been a definite progression towards less and less healthy beverages, so Carabao seems to fit the bill. Milk - Coke - Worthingtons - Carling - Carabao seems like a logical trend of sorts. I look forward to the Hemlock Cup coming our way in a couple of years time.

[epsomred]

Would like to have seen Markovic get a run out tonight but am not holding my breath. Really don't understand LFC's' stance on him, he cost £20m, probably at least another £10m in wages over the life of his contract so £30m all in but we don't either sell him or play him in cup games. At least if we gave him some time in the league cup, it would be a shop window for the January transfer window. Personally I rate him and am still hoping he may come good for us one day but I know I am in a small minority on RAWK.  Anyway, I would have thought that the first round of a completion we don't care that much about would be an ideal time to play him.

[peachybum]

It gave them a winning mentality and also attracted better players.

Yeah, being able to offer huge petro-dollar contracts or CL football is one thing but what really gets the players and super agents going is a League Cup victory.