Topic: George Best - on a par with Messi?

[RedBootsTommySmith]

That was the Keegan goal made by Smithy wasn’t it? Coleman’s quote was just perfect.

I think that was the 74 Cup Final, right Tommy?

In which case the man was on top form that day. "Goals pay the rent and Keegan gets his share". "'Good ball' he said and 'Good ball' it was." The man of the pithy phrase.

Found it. Move starts at 1:25:0.   I didn't remember it being so late in the game. Happy days.

https://youtu.be/ZRJNox7Fvfw

[PoetryInMotion]

No doubt Best was a superb practitioner on the ball and had a knack for the unconventional. I do get frustrated when he's discussed in conversations about the 'GOAT', however. My standard reply is 'He wasn't even the best player on his own team'. In my opinion, that accolade belongs to Bobby Charlton, who at the time (especially as a result of England's World Cup winning year 1966 and Manchester United's European Cup winning year 1968) was viewed as the best player Great Britain has ever produced. It seems to have been forgotten with the passage of time. I think Best's 'Rock n Roll' image has elevated his position.

I think it's close between Best and Charlton and if you're talking about the English game, you could bring Moore and Banks into the picture as well.

I rate Charlton as close to Zidane as one can in his position. Good call.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

I think it's close between Best and Charlton and if you're talking about the English game, you could bring Moore and Banks into the picture as well.

I rate Charlton as close to Zidane as one can in his position. Good call.

The Kop had a reply for you:

'Bobby Moore, OBE...another buggers energy'.   

Hence Roger Hunt being knighted 'Sir Roger'.

[Timbo's Goals]

No doubt Best was a superb practitioner on the ball and had a knack for the unconventional. I do get frustrated when he's discussed in conversations about the 'GOAT', however. My standard reply is 'He wasn't even the best player on his own team'. In my opinion, that accolade belongs to Bobby Charlton, who at the time (especially as a result of England's World Cup winning year 1966 and Manchester United's European Cup winning year 1968) was viewed as the best player Great Britain has ever produced. It seems to have been forgotten with the passage of time. I think Best's 'Rock n Roll' image has elevated his position.

Edit: https://youtu.be/5HpvWGfp3tk

(Nifty tune, too!)

Another edit: I'm paraphrasing, but I remember hearing Alan Ball, Everton's best-ever player, reminiscing about asking Alf Ramsey for tactical instructions on his England debut; Alf replied 'Get the ball, give it to Charlton'.

Another terrific video compilation. Bobby “You’re never alone with a Strand” Charlton.   

Yet another genuine great. Nice one Tommy for posting it.

For a good 4 or 5 years before Bestie exploded on the scene Bobby Charlton was ‘the’ name. As kids even in Liverpool he was the name on our lips. Who d’yer think you are - Stanley Matthews?’ had long given over to the newest superstar on the block and Bobby Charlton was very definitely that new name to replace Matthews. And rightly so as he was a fabulous player. As graceful as a gazelle running and ghosting past opponents, ridiculously two footed with the most perfectly balanced shooting action with either foot I think I’ve ever seen.

And then Georgie Best arrived in ‘63 and Bobby was very quickly no longer that top dog. Not that he wasn’t still right up there. The Best, Law, Charlton triumvirate became the catchphrase but there was no doubt that the other two found themselves in the shadow of George Best.

Now we can see from your post TommyRedboots that not everyone bought into the notion and fair enough I’d say because your video clearly shows just what an incredible player - and let’s not forget true gent - Bobby Charlton was, let alone how lengthy and nigh perfect a career he had. That said, I don’t think there’s much doubt either that amongst the vast majority of footy fans in our age group it was the bewitching magic of Georgie Best that truly captivated us. We respected and admired Bobby but it was Georgie Best who took our breath away.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

To each their own, Timbo. To me, Bobby was head & shoulders above them all, even after Best had peaked.

And to show how narratives are defined and evolve with time, I had one lad challenge me once that he thought Jackie Charlton was the better of the Charlton brothers. Now there's a tall tale!

[Timbo's Goals]

To each their own, Timbo. To me, Bobby was head & shoulders above them all, even after Best had peaked.

Yeah. Fair play Tommy. And your video and the incredible career it depicts certainly underlines why many like yourself would maintain that. One other interesting thing about Sir Bobby Charlton is the almost inevitability of him becoming a footballer. Four of his uncles were professional players, his mum’s cousin was the great Wor Jackie Milburn and of course there’s his big bro Jack. What a family eh!! 

[Timbo's Goals]

And to show how narratives are defined and evolve with time, I had one lad challenge me once that he thought Jackie Charlton was the better of the Charlton brothers. Now there's a tall tale!

Ha ha

 

EE aye Addio yer dirty big giraffe   

[Son of Spion]

To each their own, Timbo. To me, Bobby was head & shoulders above them all, even after Best had peaked.

And to show how narratives are defined and evolve with time, I had one lad challenge me once that he thought Jackie Charlton was the better of the Charlton brothers. Now there's a tall tale!

The neck on him, coming out with that. 

[PoetryInMotion]

The neck on him, coming out with that. 

 

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Ronaldo @ Inter, worth watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFvbopj3Vlg&ab_channel=JogaStreet

[tonysleft]

This is probably the best thread for this since the mention of Bobby but did anyone see the documentary about Jack and his alzheimers. really touching. such an affable guy but hard and respectable too. two very genuine fellas, the Charltons, who were there at the very beginnings of the football "star" being a thing.

very very sad to see him recognising McGrath in his advanced stage of the illness

[Flaccido Dongingo]

This is probably the best thread for this since the mention of Bobby but did anyone see the documentary about Jack and his alzheimers. really touching. such an affable guy but hard and respectable too. two very genuine fellas, the Charltons, who were there at the very beginnings of the football "star" being a thing.

very very sad to see him recognising McGrath in his advanced stage of the illness

Jack is practically a Saint here in Ireland, when he passed away it was like the death of a head of state over here, I'm surprised there hasn't been a national holiday named after him yet.

[PoetryInMotion]

A few videos on one of our greatest

His all round game

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Mdx138YafOo

His passing

https://youtube.com/watch?v=M6tKTmb-TrU

His assists

https://youtube.com/watch?v=aLgTIiT0mc8

A glimpse into what could've been had he played with better players in mind and technique

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Zd7o25B6Fs0
https://youtube.com/watch?v=lonFq4lmeu4
https://youtube.com/watch?v=y1VyDF7lz3U
https://youtube.com/watch?v=kNl3mOnqh9E

[Son of Spion]

What did I say?

[PoetryInMotion]

What did I say?

Oh, I was agreeing with you

[Armand9]

“Definitely not the older Ronaldo” - justify that? He didn’t have the longevity - but if you ever saw him in his pomp he was like nothing else before or since.

the best number 9 i've ever seen, if you take them all on their best days, was the original ronaldo, absolutely terrifying, total beast, unplayable, so often would take his shot early in the stride totally flat footing keepers, just a wonder to watch him

but unfortunately, when you talk about the best etc, longevity is a factor, you can't do fuckall if you're not on the pitch and that was all too often career wise for such an incredible player - if i had a world 11 to pick in their pomp, original ronaldo all the way, wouldn't even consider anyone over him but as regards being the GOAT, sadly he's not in the conversation for his well known problems keeping fit

A few videos on one of our greatest...

ah fuck, seeing those vids... i still miss him, i dont know if there has ever been a better player for putting a team on his back (maradonna?) and through force of will and force of nature get them over the line, and let's be frank, some of the teams he was in he had to do it more fucking often than any player should have to

imagine him in our current side, this is the level of team he deserved to be in, he would be fucking unstoppale, he played with some great players but never in a complete team like we have now

[Son of Spion]

Oh, I was agreeing with you

Ah, I see.

It was a poor pun on my behalf too. Talking about necks, when Jack's nickname was Giraffe. 

Poor call by that fella though. Jack was good at what he did, but Bobby was top drawer.

[PoetryInMotion]

ah fuck, seeing those vids... i still miss him, i dont know if there has ever been a better player for putting a team on his back (maradonna?) and through force of will and force of nature get them over the line, and let's be frank, some of the teams he was in he had to do it more fucking often than any player should have to

imagine him in our current side, this is the level of team he deserved to be in, he would be fucking unstoppale, he played with some great players but never in a complete team like we have now

I agree.. He shouldn't have had that much on his shoulders, plus he captained us the most times in our history.

In the current team, our forwards would be licking their lips at the kind of passes and service they would receive. He would've made others even better, as absurd as it sounds.

[PoetryInMotion]

Ah, I see.

It was a poor pun on my behalf too. Talking about necks, when Jack's nickname was Giraffe. 

Poor call by that fella though. Jack was good at what he did, but Bobby was top drawer.

Yes, that's the way I see it too.

[ToneLa]

I've heard better George Best jokes than Lionel Messi jokes

[rossipersempre]

This is probably the best thread for this since the mention of Bobby but did anyone see the documentary about Jack and his alzheimers. really touching. such an affable guy but hard and respectable too. two very genuine fellas, the Charltons, who were there at the very beginnings of the football "star" being a thing.

very very sad to see him recognising McGrath in his advanced stage of the illness

I think everyone (except possibly Craig Johnston ) had time for Jack Charlton. Bobby the ticket tout? Not so sure…

[Dr. Beaker]

I think everyone (except possibly Craig Johnston ) had time for Jack Charlton. Bobby the ticket tout? Not so sure…

Not in his playing days - pretty much hated by all. Slight exaggeration, maybe.

[vblfc]

I think it's close between Best and Charlton and if you're talking about the English game, you could bring Moore and Banks into the picture as well.

I rate Charlton as close to Zidane as one can in his position. Good call.

Do you mean England players? Cause then you can count out Bestie completely. If you mean played in the English league then a few others to consider maybe for me before Moore and Banks, great as they were.

[PoetryInMotion]

Do you mean England players? Cause then you can count out Bestie completely. If you mean played in the English league then a few others to consider maybe for me before Moore and Banks, great as they were.

Yeah, I meant English League. Interesting. Who would they be?

[vblfc]

Yeah, I meant English League. Interesting. Who would they be?

That’s fair - You made me think - Hate to say it but plastic Ronnie will be up there (but I guess more for his time at Real). Maybe Finney (before my time), Could argue for Henry (hard to compare eras), with a personal bias would squeeze in The King.  I’v heard some argue for Edwards.
I did see a bit of Moore and Banks later years and both were amazing and agree hard to beat in English League.  All that said - still Best ahead for me in that bunch.

[PoetryInMotion]

That’s fair - You made me think - Hate to say it but plastic Ronnie will be up there (but I guess more for his time at Real). Maybe Finney (before my time), Could argue for Henry (hard to compare eras), with a personal bias would squeeze in The King.  I’v heard some argue for Edwards.
I did see a bit of Moore and Banks later years and both were amazing and agree hard to beat in English League.  All that said - still Best ahead for me in that bunch.

Thanks for that, mate.

I would count Ronaldo and Suarez as La Liga players. I've read a lot about Finney. Henry - I would place him similar to Suarez overall - from Top 50-100 all-time? As I would Gerrard as well. King Kenny too belongs in there. Edwards unfortunately had a very short peak to be in the conversation. Good to know you've seen Moore and Banks. Guess those two with Charlton, Best and Mathews would be in a Top 50 all-time from the videos of games I've watched of them and from what I've read from football historians.

[vblfc]

Thanks for that, mate.

I would count Ronaldo and Suarez as La Liga players. I've read a lot about Finney. Henry - I would place him similar to Suarez overall - from Top 50-100 all-time? As I would Gerrard as well. King Kenny too belongs in there. Edwards unfortunately had a very short peak to be in the conversation. Good to know you've seen Moore and Banks. Guess those two with Charlton, Best and Mathews would be in a Top 50 all-time from the videos of games I've watched of them and from what I've read from football historians.

Matthews is another good shout. Interesting - You speak initially about players who played in England and also “top 50” so I just googled “top 50 footballers of all time” and got quite a few articles and lists. Amazing for me to find how many top names on these lists didn't play in England.  I’ve now got lots of old videos I need to watch 😁. Thanks - Great discussion 

[JohnnoWhite]

Not so sure about that. Our old primary school teacher Miss Formby once did the Matthews feint and the Cruyff funny turn at the same time.

 She put it down to vertigo. Took four of us to get her up off the floor.

Just scrolling back and fell about laughing me tits off at this. Brilliant!!

[JohnnoWhite]

That’s fair - You made me think - Hate to say it but plastic Ronnie will be up there (but I guess more for his time at Real). Maybe Finney (before my time), Could argue for Henry (hard to compare eras), with a personal bias would squeeze in The King.  I’v heard some argue for Edwards.
I did see a bit of Moore and Banks later years and both were amazing and agree hard to beat in English League.  All that said - still Best ahead for me in that bunch.

Big Duncan Edwards was my idol when I was an 11 year old - and United mad. He was an absolute phenomenon. Built like a brick shithouse at 17, thighs like oak trees, a strike on him - with either foot - like a cannon, he was a more than useful goalie too.
Dead at just turned 21, having lived through unimaginable internal injuries that confounded the doctors at Rechts der Isar hospital in Munich as to how he'd managed to survive another 2 weeks, there is no doubt in my mind that had he lived, England would have mounted a very serious World Cup challenge if not in 1958 then certainly in 1962.
In 1966 the big fella would only have been 30 and Bobby Moore wouldn't have got a sniff.

[MadErik]

My dad said Duncan Edwards was one of the very best he’d ever seen - no weaknesses in his game. I remember being petrified when Bobby Charlton likened Phil Jones to him - I thought United had signed someone to build another dynasty around!