Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[Jookie]

Appreciate you're playing Devil's advocate, but this whole thing about some fans being rubbed up the wrong way by a perceived treatment of Klopp is frankly bizarre and smacks of people looking for something to moan about.

I definitely am playing devils advocate here and looking for the reasons why some fans might feel this way. What I described is what some of my friends/family think. Not necessarily Mike Nevin. Let's be clear here I don't know what Mike's thinking is around Klopp and his perceived dislike for how he is viewed. I was just joining a few dots based on my experience of speaking with other match going fans.

I think Klopp's achievements have been absolutely fine. Yes a trophy would have been nice, but I think it would be wrong to start judging a manager for losing 2 finals, when we have first hand experience of how finals can be won and lost in the strangest circumstances.
But 2 finals with Rodgers squad in his first part season, then a top 4 finish, then looking well placed for top 4 whilst reaching the last 8 of the European Cup is continued progress.

Completely agree with the above. We are on an upward trajectory since Klopp joined us. I have certain doubts about him but he's done 2 things very, very well in my opinion -  1. he's got a clear tactical plan and it's very obvious with regards to recruitment that he has a careful and pragmatic way to address any weakness in the squad, and 2. he's got 99% of people pulling in the same direction.

The tactical piece, and how our recruitment policy ties into this, has removed a key issue from when Rodgers was in charge. The scattergun transfer approach and how they fitted with the overall tactical plan was a key problem that Klopp inherited. From the outside looking in there's a better sense of cohesion across the club when it comes to identifying players and recruitment. That in turn has led to a much better success rate in our transfers over the last 2 to 3 years.

The 2nd point of having the club and fans pulling in the same direction can't be under estimated. People may sneer at Klopp's perceived easy ride in the media but as Byrnee put it below it is so much better than the alternative. The last 3 years of Rafa were great in parts but they were so draining when going the games. Mainly due to the constant disputes in the crowd. Only really under Kenny have we had a period harmony between Rafa and Klopp. Long may the harmony and lack of negative comment continue.

We finally have a manager who the media isn't having a snide dig at every week, and we're supposed to be unhappy about this? So he's elevated to a lofty position earlier than other managers? GOOD. Means we aren't fucking distracted with the shit we had with Rafa, Kenny, even Rodgers - constantly defending them against accusations that he's lost his marbles, or is a fat spanish waiter, too long out of the game, a fraud.

All that bullshit has gone .

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

^ Cheers for reply, and interesting that there are some matchgoers thinking like that.
I go less  these days, but met up with an old mate who is still an STH to watch the game on Saturday and while we could both point to things we disagreed with, we were both astonished that there's a body of opinion like this.

I just wonder whether we have become so used to turmoil that some just need something to rail against.
Lets be clear, we can do better on and off the pitch, but compared to Moores/Parry/Hicks Gilette and the likes of Hodge - we have definitely improved and will improve further, but you can't just flick a switch and say "let's improve".

Lets just enjoy the ride.

[mattD]

His weird agenda against Karius despite him not really being at fault for us on Saturday is just the ignorant pub banter ramblings.

Couldn’t care less if he’s ‘had a season ticket for 28 years’, doesn’t mean a thing. Mike Nevin spouts utter shite. That is all that needs to be known.

[the 92A]

Loved Rafa, hated the way he was hounded out but not having that means you have a bit of a downer on Klopp.

[MerseysideBrum]

Loved Rafa, hated the way he was hounded out but not having that means you have a bit of a downer on Klopp.

Klopp didn't even replace him either

[Jookie]

Klopp didn't even replace him either

I've said it above I was offering a potential alternative explanation for why some fans aren't as enthusiastic about Klopp as others. It was on the basis of how the media and sections of our own fans treated the 2 managers. The succession of the managers has no impact here. It's nothing to do with Klopp replacing Rafa. It's about media perception and the fact Rafa got a harder time despite winning a lot more at the club.

[thekitkatshuffler]

Actually at the stage now where if i see Nevin is on a show i just wont listen.

I have the same reaction to other contributors on the show because I know they'll trot out bland echo-chamber opinions every show, which, while probably very sensible, just has me going...






I wouldn't want their contributions removed though as someone else will listen to them and be nodding at how much sense they're talking, but I like to have the variety of opinions and stuff I can disagree with.  Bit like refereeing decisions I suppose.

[bradders1011]

Pretty sure I heard talk of some team's momentum "disappearing into the urethra" on the Friday Show.

Ugh.

[lamonti]

The Big Question show on youth development was excellent. Well informed and researched opinions from all the contributors. Made for an extremely interesting listen. The stuff about the EPPP (is that what it's called) was particularly informative.

It'd be great if you could get someone in from Spain or Germany to compare how they do it for a follow up show. In large part, I think the idea that a club should produce its own players is not big part of English club football culture at all. Feel like you could do a part two anyway! Well done all involved.

[Fitzy.]

Observing Nevin on Twitter has become quite the spectacle. It casts very few similarities to the Nevin of a year or two ago. There’s a strange inverse logic going on with his view of the club; as the team improves under Klopp, Nevin appears increasingly disgruntled at the team and Klopp. He’s constantly overreaching for things to slag off.

I’m inclined to think it’s simply attention seeking - alternatively if that’s the level of coherence he has then TAW isn’t his platform, not anymore.

[thekitkatshuffler]

Observing Nevin on Twitter has become quite the spectacle. It casts very few similarities to the Nevin of a year or two ago. There’s a strange inverse logic going on with his view of the club; as the team improves under Klopp, Nevin appears increasingly disgruntled at the team and Klopp. He’s constantly overreaching for things to slag off.

I’m inclined to think it’s simply attention seeking - alternatively if that’s the level of coherence he has then TAW isn’t his platform, not anymore.

Has he suggested we sign Kasper Schmeichel yet? 

[Raaphael]

Rachael Biggs has a really charming voice.

[The Lord Admiral]

Pretty sure I heard talk of some team's momentum "disappearing into the urethra" on the Friday Show.

Ugh.

I laughed at this as well. Wasn't sure if it was intentional or not!

[ScouserAtHeart]

Danny Ingredients

[MerseysideBrum]

Hope TAW have lots of content to get me through this international break and build up to the City game!

[thekitkatshuffler]

Adam Melia's "boom operator" gag...

[courty61]

Loved Robbos dig at all the auld arses who just moaned after Saturday "Yeah but when someone bids 150m we'll sell"

[Iska]

Nice discussion about Frank Skinner on the last wildcards show.  It’s interesting how everyone identified how today’s comedy is very tamed-down, and it’s not even like Skinner’s a particularly edgy example.

I reckon comedy is the biggest signifier of a generation gap there is, way more than fashion or music.  Sometimes I see a performer just a couple of years out from my own demographic and wonder what on earth is making his audience perceive him as comedy.

[Fitzy.]

Nice discussion about Frank Skinner on the last wildcards show.  It’s interesting how everyone identified how today’s comedy is very tamed-down, and it’s not even like Skinner’s a particularly edgy example.

I reckon comedy is the biggest signifier of a generation gap there is, way more than fashion or music.  Sometimes I see a performer just a couple of years out from my own demographic and wonder what on earth is making his audience perceive him as comedy.

Generational factors can impact how a comedian is perceived. However, there’s also levels of sophistication that can determine how well jokes go down with certain audiences.

As for Skinner, he’s brilliantly funny. He just has funny bones - even the way he speaks and begins a story can have me grinning. Get on his podcast of his Saturday morning radio show on Absolute Radio. Very amusing. 

[Harinder]

He's also wildly xenophobic. Find it odd he's never called out on it to be honest.

He so isn't. Please do not cast these kind of aspersions on RAWK. If you think he is feel free to contact him on Twitter.

[Fitzy.]

The Two Tribes interview with Tony Evans was a good listen in that Evans is a really good football historian of the 70s and 80s. He has excellent insight, a societal perspective and first hand experience of a fascinating era.

However, while the interview expounded Evans’ great insights it also betrayed his limitations as a contemporary commentator of football. It’s really clear that Evans’ footballing intellectualism has never really moved on from the 80s. His whole perspective and keystone reference points all hark back to 30 years ago. Indeed, his list of fellas that he rates as footballing connoisseur are all old 80s pros of Liverpool and Everton fame. Good blokes, I’m sure, but hardly have their finger on the nub of modern footballing philosophy. Nicol, Larwo and Reidy are good talkers but really are yesterday’s men.

All this is fine when you’re reciting past times - regaling the past with rich details is brilliant when learning about our golden years. But it becomes a problem when you start imposing these same insights onto the modern incarnation of the club. In fact, it’s simply anti-historical. It’s an irrelevance. But it’s also unhelpful. Lending 30 year old comparisons to criticise or lambast modern Liverpool creates an unhealthy pressure and expectation. Obviously winning remains the raison d’etre, but simply using a golden past to beat the present day club is dull at best and unhealthy at worst. 

In short, want to learn about the 80s then Evans is your man. Want to enjoy and appreciate Klopp’s Liverpool then Evans is a dead weight.

[Iska]

While I still don’t approve of the gambling linkup, I actually do enjoy the little spots they have where someone, usually Nevin, comes in to chat the odds.  But it did make laugh that on yesterday’s show they went off on an international football tangent and never got round to the betting at all.  It was a nice perspective.

[J_Kopite]

The Two Tribes interview with Tony Evans was a good listen in that Evans is a really good football historian of the 70s and 80s. He has excellent insight, a societal perspective and first hand experience of a fascinating era.

However, while the interview expounded Evans’ great insights it also betrayed his limitations as a contemporary commentator of football. It’s really clear that Evans’ footballing intellectualism has never really moved on from the 80s. His whole perspective and keystone reference points all hark back to 30 years ago. Indeed, his list of fellas that he rates as footballing connoisseur are all old 80s pros of Liverpool and Everton fame. Good blokes, I’m sure, but hardly have their finger on the nub of modern footballing philosophy. Nicol, Larwo and Reidy are good talkers but really are yesterday’s men.

All this is fine when you’re reciting past times - regaling the past with rich details is brilliant when learning about our golden years. But it becomes a problem when you start imposing these same insights onto the modern incarnation of the club. In fact, it’s simply anti-historical. It’s an irrelevance. But it’s also unhelpful. Lending 30 year old comparisons to criticise or lambast modern Liverpool creates an unhealthy pressure and expectation. Obviously winning remains the raison d’etre, but simply using a golden past to beat the present day club is dull at best and unhealthy at worst. 

In short, want to learn about the 80s then Evans is your man. Want to enjoy and appreciate Klopp’s Liverpool then Evans is a dead weight.

Well summed up, I'm looking forward to reading the book and love it when he's on shows about our past but can't take anything he says seriously about today's game.

[MerseysideBrum]

Nevin and Neil talking about past WC tourneys was good, as someone else said keep Nevin on the old stuff and away from Klopp. Hopefully they've lined up some cracking shows lined up in the summer with the World Cup on, it's hard not to get carried away with it all when it's actually on (not with England just the tourny).

[-HH-]

Nevin and Neil talking about past WC tourneys was good, as someone else said keep Nevin on the old stuff and away from Klopp. Hopefully they've lined up some cracking shows lined up in the summer with the World Cup on, it's hard not to get carried away with it all when it's actually on (not with England just the tourny).

I am genuinely intrigued as to why they have to keep him away from stuff about Klopp? I disagree with just about everything he says on Klopp - doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to his opinion. Do you just want people on who agree with you?

[Ipcress]

I am genuinely intrigued as to why they have to keep him away from stuff about Klopp? I disagree with just about everything he says on Klopp - doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to his opinion. Do you just want people on who agree with you?

The problem is, he comes out with stuff but doesn't back it up with sense. You may as well get a 12 year old on the show who says the best Liverpool player of all time is Peter Crouch because he was the tallest. It's an opinion, doesn't mean we should be subjected to it.  Nevin's opinion that Klopp, if still under pressure from fans after a year should be replaced by Gerrard or Alonso, in the belief that they will do well because Guardiola and Zidan did well, ignoring thousands of footballers who screwed up as managers.

His opinions seem to have more in common with prejudiced views rather than the considered differing opinions of other TAW contributors.

[-HH-]

The problem is, he comes out with stuff but doesn't back it up with sense. You may as well get a 12 year old on the show who says the best Liverpool player of all time is Peter Crouch because he was the tallest. It's an opinion, doesn't mean we should be subjected to it.  Nevin's opinion that Klopp, if still under pressure from fans after a year should be replaced by Gerrard or Alonso, in the belief that they will do well because Guardiola and Zidan did well, ignoring thousands of footballers who screwed up as managers.

His opinions seem to have more in common with prejudiced views rather than the considered differing opinions of other TAW contributors.

I agree, but when I used to go the match there were always loads of people like that. TAW has always aimed itself at being broadly representative of the matchgoing fanbase. Like it or not, there are probably more Mikes than Neils out there.

[campioni]

The problem is, he comes out with stuff but doesn't back it up with sense. You may as well get a 12 year old on the show who says the best Liverpool player of all time is Peter Crouch because he was the tallest. It's an opinion, doesn't mean we should be subjected to it. Nevin's opinion that Klopp, if still under pressure from fans after a year should be replaced by Gerrard or Alonso, in the belief that they will do well because Guardiola and Zidan did well, ignoring thousands of footballers who screwed up as managers.

His opinions seem to have more in common with prejudiced vies rather than the considered differing opinions of other TAW contributors.

That’s not what Mike said at all. My understanding of the point Mike was making is that some of our fans do not take any criticism of Klopp at all well and believe that the day Klopp leaves is doomsday for Liverpool because there’s no one good enough to replace him. For someone who has lived through seeing Paisley, Fagan, Dalglish etc. leave the club after bringing in a lot of trophies, I think I can see why Mike is a bit baffled with people who hold this viewpoint on Klopp.

With regards to the comments about Alonso and Gerrard I don’t think he was actually advocating sacking Klopp and bringing them in but again it was more in response to the point that no one can replace Klopp. The subsequent argument to that point is “but they don’t have any managerial experience” which is why Mike mentioned Zidane and Guardiola. I don’t think he’s saying that means it would work for us but they are examples of cases where ex players with no managerial experience have been handed the job at big clubs and done well. I know for every Guardiola there are 100 John Barnes’ and if Klopp decided to pack it in this summer I wouldn’t want Gerrard or Alonso handed the job but you can bet there’d be quite a few of our fans wanting Gerard to take over. The point is, the club will move on.

[conman]

I don't think he meant that at all Campioni. I'm with LP on this one...

It's odd though, as Mike is one of the best contributors on the show and I love hearing him speak, unless it's about Klopp... Then it's 50/50 as to whether he is going to be rational or not.

[Ipcress]

I agree, but when I used to go the match there were always loads of people like that. TAW has always aimed itself at being broadly representative of the matchgoing fanbase. Like it or not, there are probably more Mikes than Neils out there.

Is there no one who holds these viewpoints who can back it up with decent arguments though? And if not, should these negative viewpoints be given a regular public airing. Take UKIP, would it have done as well politically if Frottage not been given so much time on the BBC. He was able to spread his clap trap with greater respectability because he was on TV. If Joe Bloggs talks crap down the pub, most people would dismiss it as rubbish, but if the same views are being aired in the media/podcasts without being rubbished then more people will give credence to the views, and if it's negative, then it can contribute to unwarranted pressure on the manager.

[Djimi Smicer34]

That’s not what Mike said at all. My understanding of the point Mike was making is that some of our fans do not take any criticism of Klopp at all well and believe that the day Klopp leaves is doomsday for Liverpool because there’s no one good enough to replace him. For someone who has lived through seeing Paisley, Fagan, Dalglish etc. leave the club after bringing in a lot of trophies, I think I can see why Mike is a bit baffled with people who hold this viewpoint on Klopp.

Which is complete and utter nonsense.

He just seems to harbour an odd resentment towards Klopp for some reason. 

[MerseysideBrum]

The problem is, he comes out with stuff but doesn't back it up with sense. You may as well get a 12 year old on the show who says the best Liverpool player of all time is Peter Crouch because he was the tallest. It's an opinion, doesn't mean we should be subjected to it.  Nevin's opinion that Klopp, if still under pressure from fans after a year should be replaced by Gerrard or Alonso, in the belief that they will do well because Guardiola and Zidan did well, ignoring thousands of footballers who screwed up as managers.

His opinions seem to have more in common with prejudiced views rather than the considered differing opinions of other TAW contributors.

This.

I'm all for other peoples opinions but an opinion without any basis is commonly referred to as bullshit.

Like I posted before I think Nevin's contributions are great when talking about past stuff LFC or otherwise. He clearly has followed football for a very long time. When he says baseless things about the current Liverpool team or club without any factual basis that is when I can't listen anymore. Often Neil says things which I don't agree with, like when he constantly goes on about our need for someone like a DoF between Klopp and FSG, but he at least justifies it with fact and reason.

[DangerScouse]

I think some people are way over sensitive to Mike's comments on Klopp.

[Fitzy.]

I think some people are way over sensitive to Mike's comments on Klopp.

I think this a little reductive. I enjoy discussing the contents of shows which may include a reasonable and considered critique of certain opinions. It's not being 'over sensitive' it's just offering a perspective and an objection. Its like me saying, DangerScouse is being over sensitive about the criticism of Nevin when you're simply offering a bit of a defence, which is reasonable.

[Fitzy.]

I agree, but when I used to go the match there were always loads of people like that. TAW has always aimed itself at being broadly representative of the matchgoing fanbase.

I actually think it's selling point is that it is the antithesis of 'broad' opinion - it largely serves up considered opinion that you often don't hear on the terraces or read on the internet. The day TAW becomes 'representative' is the day I end my subscription.

*I do love TAW by the way...

[Ipcress]

This.

I'm all for other peoples opinions but an opinion without any basis is commonly referred to as bullshit.

Like I posted before I think Nevin's contributions are great when talking about past stuff LFC or otherwise. He clearly has followed football for a very long time. When he says baseless things about the current Liverpool team or club without any factual basis that is when I can't listen anymore. Often Neil says things which I don't agree with, like when he constantly goes on about our need for someone like a DoF between Klopp and FSG, but he at least justifies it with fact and reason.

This is a brilliant sentence.

[Fitzy.]

This is a brilliant sentence.

Even though he's missed an apostrophe? 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I understand people being critical of Nevin's opinions. They can be divisive. But to take that a step further and basically say "I don't want to hear this opinion, you should remove it/him from the show" isn't right. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't been offensive at any point here, so to liken him to a right-wing, anti-immigrant political party is grossly unfair.

Not only is it unfair, it does nothing to discourage the lazy group-think which has been an issue for the Wrap over the years IMO. By saying I don't want to hear x opinion, I want more of y opinion, you are essentially encouraging people to fall in line with a certain way of thinking.

The amount of times I hear a contributor simply regurgitating an opinion Atkinson has already shared on previous podcasts, for example, is beyond belief. Another example was one contributor asserting that Solanke had never scored a senior goal to discredit him. For months on end this line was regurgitated as fact without anyone checking it, when actually he scored 7 in 25 in the Dutch top flight two seasons ago.

I would far rather hear a unique opinion from Nevin than a copy-cat one from someone else.

[Fitzy.]

I would far rather hear a unique opinion from Nevin than a copy-cat one from someone else.

They're far from unique - just pop onto Twitter after the next disappointing result and you'll see plenty that share his views.

[conman]

The amount of times I hear a contributor simply regurgitating an opinion Atkinson has already shared on previous podcasts, for example, is beyond belief. Another example was one contributor asserting that Solanke had never scored a senior goal to discredit him. For months on end this line was regurgitated as fact without anyone checking it, when actually he scored 7 in 25 in the Dutch top flight two seasons ago.

I would far rather hear a unique opinion from Nevin than a copy-cat one from someone else.

Get Babayugu, Pop, HesBig, etc on there.