Author Topic: French riots  (Read 7988 times)

Offline Iska

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Re: French riots
« Reply #120 on: July 4, 2023, 03:33:01 pm »
I’ve been in Paris since Saturday, there’s almost no sign of any aggro. Seen one boarded up cash machine and a few soldiers standing guard round some of the main sights, but I suspect that’s probably fairly routine.

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Re: French riots
« Reply #121 on: July 4, 2023, 04:03:59 pm »
I’ve been in Paris since Saturday, there’s almost no sign of any aggro. Seen one boarded up cash machine and a few soldiers standing guard round some of the main sights, but I suspect that’s probably fairly routine.
thank you
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: French riots
« Reply #122 on: July 4, 2023, 04:04:31 pm »
I’ve been in Paris since Saturday, there’s almost no sign of any aggro. Seen one boarded up cash machine and a few soldiers standing guard round some of the main sights, but I suspect that’s probably fairly routine.

That’ll be operation vigipirate. Saw them last year when we were in Versailles. We were in Bordeaux this year and Mrs P ended up walking down one of the indie shopping streets in the middle of a patrol of highly armed soldiers. Her only comment was how good looking they were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigipirate

Offline Iska

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Re: French riots
« Reply #123 on: July 4, 2023, 04:37:09 pm »
operation vigipirate
I was wondering what that word meant, I’ve seen a few 4x4s rolling around with that on the front now you mention it. I was pointing out a stern, mean-looking gang of soldiers to my son at the arc de triomphe, rifles at the ready, when a couple of pretty girls came up to ask for a photo and they immediately turned all gallant and charming: “as many as you lahhk, ladeez”. Could not have asked for a more classically French scene to kick us off.

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: French riots
« Reply #124 on: July 4, 2023, 04:44:57 pm »

For decades, most countries in the West grew real per-capita GDP, whilst wealth/income inequality reduced.

Starting from the 70s in some countries, certainly accelerating in the 80's, this progression began to reverse. Owners of capital/real estate and those high up the financial services ladder hoovered up an increasing proportion of the economic endeavours of countries.

And the real levels of productive GDP (certainly per capita) have been reducing - although masked by a liberalised financial sector that has made credit cheap and easy. The roots of this has been the outsourcing of much of the manufacturing function to initially sweatshop countries in predominantly Asia. That results in a massive net transfer of wealth from West to East.

It could be argued that there's a certain justice in the West - which derived a fair bit of its wealth through the pillage of the natural resources and human workforces of countries in Asia, Africa, South America, etc in the 17th/18th/19th centuries - transferring back a big chunk of that wealth.

But the consequences in those Western countries is that a lot of the work that was once the preserve of the working classes has vanished. It's been sort of replaced with much less lucrative work - warehousing/order picking, delivery, retail and such.

The upshot is that swathes of populations in the US, UK, France and other western countries are poorer in relation to other sectors of the population (those working within selective sectors).

Traditionally (well, for much of the 20th century at least), these people would turn, politically, to the left. But 'the left', certainly the mainstream left, has adopted most/all of the right-wing economic fundamentals like low taxation (the biggest tax cuts in all western countries over the last 40 years have been for the highest earners), privatisation of public services/utilities, suppressed workers' rights, free trade to allow multinational corporations to exploit cheap labour by outsourcing manufacture, deregulation of sectors like finance, property, etc.

When the mainstream left adopt right-of-centre economic policies, the only distinguishing difference between them and mainstream right-of-centre parties tends to be social/cultural issues. When large numbers (majorities?) of white, straight either don't care about the championed social/cultural issues or even oppose them, then those people have no reason to look leftwards.

They therefore become more susceptible to the populism of the far-right, which offers simplistic 'solutions' to complex issues. Remember also that many far-right parties will include a fair bit of economically left-of-centre policy.

When offered the choice of leftwing economic policies by leftwing parties and leaders the electorate rejects them. This is despite those same policies being very popular when isolated in questions put to the electorate in polls etc. The electorates give every signal that they would embrace left wing economic ideas however they will reject the parties who propose them if those left wing economic ideas are packaged together with left wing social policies, in particular with regards to immigration. Until the left wing parties in Europe and the UK accept they have to compromise on their left wing pro immigration social policies then the drift to the right will continue until we get Le Pen elected as president of France and other quasi fascists are elected in the border states of Europe. It's almost inevitable now, I think we will see the hard right controlling virtually every country and also the EU in the next 10 years unless the left can come up with a coherent argument about how to control and reduce immigration.

You also correctly identify the far right are including some left wing economic ideas into their policies, they know these policies are popular with the public, it's a potent mix that combined with anti immigration means the left is done for unless it can come up with an answer on reducing immigration.

Offline Iska

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Re: French riots
« Reply #125 on: July 4, 2023, 05:22:21 pm »
These two posts are exactly right imo, except that you need to follow the logic through, which is that these actually aren’t far right parties in the way that that term usually gets used in these conversations, i.e. as the worst kind of bogeyman.

What’s happened is that we’ve had about thirty years of basically continuous economic expansion and infinite credit, which progressives have completely owned because we’ve had social liberals in charge throughout the entire period pushing progressive policies and it’s the expansion which has paid for them – to the extent that in this country it’s become hard to even see the distinction between old style class-based left policies and social liberalism. Everyone just takes it for granted that LGBT or immigration are left causes. But that isn’t true, those things don’t have to go together and the Tories have had no problem pushing either of those throughout their whole term. In fact these are actually different varieties of liberalism, we’re just so used to thinking of them as left issues basically because they worked well for Blair and his paradigm is somehow still the dominant one in Britain.

Brexit and the red wall should’ve been the wake-up call to rethink all of that - the people know very well that e.g. mass immigration is not in their interests, for the reasons Nobby describes. Europe has woken up to this so they’re getting economic left/social right parties taking power, but somehow the UK hasn’t yet, and instead we’re stuck ploughing on and on with the same policies that haven’t been working for years.

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Re: French riots
« Reply #126 on: July 4, 2023, 06:46:08 pm »
These two posts are exactly right imo, except that you need to follow the logic through, which is that these actually aren’t far right parties in the way that that term usually gets used in these conversations, i.e. as the worst kind of bogeyman.

What’s happened is that we’ve had about thirty years of basically continuous economic expansion and infinite credit, which progressives have completely owned because we’ve had social liberals in charge throughout the entire period pushing progressive policies and it’s the expansion which has paid for them – to the extent that in this country it’s become hard to even see the distinction between old style class-based left policies and social liberalism. Everyone just takes it for granted that LGBT or immigration are left causes. But that isn’t true, those things don’t have to go together and the Tories have had no problem pushing either of those throughout their whole term. In fact these are actually different varieties of liberalism, we’re just so used to thinking of them as left issues basically because they worked well for Blair and his paradigm is somehow still the dominant one in Britain.

Brexit and the red wall should’ve been the wake-up call to rethink all of that - the people know very well that e.g. mass immigration is not in their interests, for the reasons Nobby describes. Europe has woken up to this so they’re getting economic left/social right parties taking power, but somehow the UK hasn’t yet, and instead we’re stuck ploughing on and on with the same policies that haven’t been working for years.



It's important to split right-left in terms of economics and 'social/cultural policy'.

My point is that all of the mainstream [nominally] left parties have adopted right-of-centre economic policies to varying degrees (but all a substantial amount). Usually not as far as the mainstream right parties (eg, not eroding the public services function as extremely), and certainly trying to mitigate the inevitable privations that corporate-capitalism imposes on millions, but still broadly right-of-centre (and definitely rejecting the principle of fairer wealth distribution being a core aim)

It's following right-wing economic policy - or, if you prefer, liberal economic policy - that has led us to the constant 'verge of shitstorm' economic territory we've teetered in since 2008.

The prime differences between the mainstream right and mainstream left parties have mostly been on their respective social/cultural policies.

The far-right parties like Le Pen's FN (and worse/more extreme in other countries like Germany, Poland, Hungary, Italy and more) distinguish themselves on these social/cultural policies to a greater extent (and are indeed the bad bogeyman in many policy respects)

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Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: French riots
« Reply #127 on: July 4, 2023, 08:28:46 pm »
Europe has woken up to this so they’re getting economic left/social right parties taking power, but somehow the UK hasn’t yet, and instead we’re stuck ploughing on and on with the same policies that haven’t been working for years.

Our first past the post electoral system creates an inertia in our politics, it could even mean that at the next election the UK bucks the overall trend and moves to the left as the rest of Europe goes hard right. I can't see it being anything other than a temporary blip though, I'd expect the Tories to go full nativist as a reaction and ape the electoral success of similar parties in Europe.

Offline Iska

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Re: French riots
« Reply #128 on: July 4, 2023, 10:21:05 pm »
It's following right-wing economic policy - or, if you prefer, liberal economic policy - that has led us to the constant 'verge of shitstorm' economic territory we've teetered in since 2008.
What’s infuriating is how parts of the more extreme left will gleefully take those policies and commit to them so much that it becomes hard to argue against them from a left perspective at all - I’m thinking mostly of the open borders crowd here, but you also see it in the weird approach towards tech liberalism. To be honest I’d include a lot of social liberalism in that too - gambling deregulation particularly sticks in the throat when we know how the social costs of that play out.  The left should never have been involved in pushing that sort of thing.

Edit: ffs, I’ve just remembered the supercasino idea from the fag days of Blair, which Brown squashed immediately and iirc was supposed to be the catalyst for regenerating East Manchester.  Does that mean that it’s Man City that have ended up doing that job?  Talk about unintended consequences.
Our first past the post electoral system creates an inertia in our politics, it could even mean that at the next election the UK bucks the overall trend and moves to the left as the rest of Europe goes hard right. I can't see it being anything other than a temporary blip though, I'd expect the Tories to go full nativist as a reaction and ape the electoral success of similar parties in Europe.
That’s how I’d always assumed it would play out - it’s too obvious a move not to make - but they’ve shown so few signs of being capable of it that I wonder whether Labour will get there first.  Starmer’s instincts sometimes seem like they might lie in that direction but you’ll have a better feeling for that than I do.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2023, 10:35:22 pm by Iska »

Offline paulrazor

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Re: French riots
« Reply #129 on: July 9, 2023, 04:57:36 pm »
Waiting on flight home. What a city. Whereangelsplay and iska were spot on. It's wonderful. No troubles at all and I would come back soon.

Fella in hotel was great and when I mentioned st Denis he said and confirmed it's pretty much a shit hole. However it's way outside Paris centre.

He was quite apologetic about last year even if I didn't go and before I asked or mentioned it said he knew we did nothing wrong

Anyway wap and iska spot on. One of the best trips I have ever had
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: French riots
« Reply #130 on: July 9, 2023, 05:09:08 pm »
Waiting on flight home. What a city. Whereangelsplay and iska were spot on. It's wonderful. No troubles at all and I would come back soon.

Fella in hotel was great and when I mentioned st Denis he said and confirmed it's pretty much a shit hole. However it's way outside Paris centre.

He was quite apologetic about last year even if I didn't go and before I asked or mentioned it said he knew we did nothing wrong

Anyway wap and iska spot on. One of the best trips I have ever had

Sounds great.  Really glad you had a good time.

My friends were in Sri Lanka the other year, right in the middle of the protests there.

Offline paulrazor

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Re: French riots
« Reply #131 on: July 9, 2023, 06:38:22 pm »
Not good

But yeah no trouble where I was. Police and army presence around but no issues at all
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Offline Iska

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Re: French riots
« Reply #132 on: July 10, 2023, 09:26:53 pm »
One of the best trips I have ever had
It’s unreal isn’t it. There’s been a thing in the British press for the past 20 years about Paris falling behind London, Paris no longer being a global city, Paris being small compared to London, all based on the size of the stock market or something. Then you get there and there’s no comparison, Paris is just light years ahead in pretty much every way. What a place, it’s just fantastic.

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Re: French riots
« Reply #133 on: July 10, 2023, 11:51:09 pm »
It’s unreal isn’t it. There’s been a thing in the British press for the past 20 years about Paris falling behind London, Paris no longer being a global city, Paris being small compared to London, all based on the size of the stock market or something. Then you get there and there’s no comparison, Paris is just light years ahead in pretty much every way. What a place, it’s just fantastic.
yeah and a feeling down the years was french people could be rude and Paris was overpriced

Both wrong. Away from tourist traps like the Eiffel tower and champs Elysees it's reasonable

People were very nice.

The Roundabout on the arc di triomphe is like spaghetti junction on steroids. Absolute free for all
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: French riots
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2023, 12:16:39 am »
One of the best trips I have ever had

Nice one  :thumbup
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: French riots
« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2023, 09:11:28 am »
Waiting on flight home. What a city. Whereangelsplay and iska were spot on. It's wonderful. No troubles at all and I would come back soon.

Fella in hotel was great and when I mentioned st Denis he said and confirmed it's pretty much a shit hole. However it's way outside Paris centre.

He was quite apologetic about last year even if I didn't go and before I asked or mentioned it said he knew we did nothing wrong

Anyway wap and iska spot on. One of the best trips I have ever had

You should try Bordeaux. A beautiful city, rich sea faring history and ‘small’ enough to get around easily on the excellent tram network.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: French riots
« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2023, 11:38:14 am »
It’s unreal isn’t it. There’s been a thing in the British press for the past 20 years about Paris falling behind London, Paris no longer being a global city, Paris being small compared to London, all based on the size of the stock market or something. Then you get there and there’s no comparison, Paris is just light years ahead in pretty much every way. What a place, it’s just fantastic.


We were due to spend an afternoon and evening there last December before moving onto DLP for a couple of days. Thanks to Manchester Airport and Sleazy, we only got to CDG at gone 10pm, and only to our hotel (close to the Louvre and the Xmas Market at Jardins Tuileries) at well gone 11. Dumped our bags and went wandering round Paris till 1am. Never felt in any danger. Delayed getting the RER to DLP to spend the Sunday morning there. Really pleasant and much nicer than I'd expected. Only downer was missing the Xmas Market (which was supposed to be my wife's treat on the break).

We're having a night's stop-over at Versailles next month en route to southern Brittany, and going to get the RER into Paris for the evening... with our dog, which should be fun!
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Offline Qston

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Re: French riots
« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2023, 11:55:51 am »

We were due to spend an afternoon and evening there last December before moving onto DLP for a couple of days. Thanks to Manchester Airport and Sleazy, we only got to CDG at gone 10pm, and only to our hotel (close to the Louvre and the Xmas Market at Jardins Tuileries) at well gone 11. Dumped our bags and went wandering round Paris till 1am. Never felt in any danger. Delayed getting the RER to DLP to spend the Sunday morning there. Really pleasant and much nicer than I'd expected. Only downer was missing the Xmas Market (which was supposed to be my wife's treat on the break).

We're having a night's stop-over at Versailles next month en route to southern Brittany, and going to get the RER into Paris for the evening... with our dog, which should be fun!

We have similar tastes in holiday destinations. I have been to paris 5 times now - and usually stay in the Marais district near Place des Vosges. I was there in May just after the initial round of rioting and there were no issues at all. Fantastic city.

I have also been going, on and off, for about 20 years to Southern Brittany for our annual summer holiday. I love that coastline.

France is great.
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