Topic: Wikileaks:

[conman]

I'm not claiming they didn't. I'm claiming that there's a very good chance that it was legitimate and not part of some agent provocateur campaign.

perhaps, We dont know..

I'm hypothesising here... If they dressed as Sunni's and started shit, wouldn't that incite the Shi'ite's or Kurds, and strike more of a division between them?

[BIGdavalad]

It probably would. But considering that the soldiers were arrested, taken to an Iraqi police station where an order to release them from the Iraqi Interior Ministry was ignored and were later rescued while being handed over to the local terrorist organisation I think it's more likely that it the IP up to their usual tricks of the time.

[conman]

Information is the Antidote to Fear: Wikileaks, the Law, and You

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/12/information-antidote-fear-wikileaks-law-and-you

[Refo]

Thats not really a great argument, although I understand where you are coming from.. But no country should consider themselves as the World police, thats what made that movie so good btw, the fact that were so many satirical truths in it. Its like a shoolyard bully telling someone that they are lucky to be bullied by him, rather than have some other lad beat him each day.. perhaps there are better examples..

I had responded to all your points, but it all got deleted. Fucking computers. Anyway I cant be bothered to write it all again, so I'll juts focus on this point.

First off I never said anything about World Police, I said US is a world power. When it comes down to it, the thing we are arguing is: 'is america a force for good in the world, or a force for bad.' But I think we can agree its a mixed bag. Problem is that you seem to always focus on the bad bits. If it is the truth we are seeking it absolutely has to be the other way around.

You brought up a story about those two British soldiers who dressed as Iraqis as evidence that we incited the sectarian violence. I think this notion is very unlikely, because I can't see a motive, I mean what possible reason would there be for the Army to want to cause chaos so that they can then waste lives and money calming it down. To me the suggestion seems indicative of a world view that starts with "America is bad" and then seeks to prove it.

This latest leak as of yet hasn't really brought forth much evidence of abuse by America. Yet we have people on here rubbing their hands in anticipation of the moment when they can finally 'prove' that they were right all along about America being bad. They are just waiting for Assange to be assassinated so that they can say 'see I told you so,' and when he isn't they are saying, 'well it'll happen soon'. But if it doesn't happen will they change their minds in any way? I doubt it.

[conman]

I had responded to all your points, but it all got deleted. Fucking computers. Anyway I cant be bothered to write it all again, so I'll juts focus on this point.

First off I never said anything about World Police, I said US is a world power. When it comes down to it, the thing we are arguing is: 'is america a force for good in the world, or a force for bad.' But I think we can agree its a mixed bag. Problem is that you seem to always focus on the bad bits. If it is the truth we are seeking it absolutely has to be the other way around.

You brought up a story about those two British soldiers who dressed as Iraqis as evidence that we incited the sectarian violence. I think this notion is very unlikely, because I can't see a motive, I mean what possible reason would there be for the Army to want to cause chaos so that they can then waste lives and money calming it down. To me the suggestion seems indicative of a world view that starts with "America is bad" and then seeks to prove it.

This latest leak as of yet hasn't really brought forth much evidence of abuse by America. Yet we have people on here rubbing their hands in anticipation of the moment when they can finally 'prove' that they were right all along about America being bad. They are just waiting for Assange to be assassinated so that they can say 'see I told you so,' and when he isn't they are saying, 'well it'll happen soon'. But if it doesn't happen will they change their minds in any way? I doubt it.

the only reason we are concentrating on the negatives is in light of this wikileaks situation, and the US Gov's response to this entity.

But the USA does a lot of good in the world, and most of that good comes from the average joe.. But certainly the USA is not all bad, and i wouldnt go as far as say they are mostly evil or anything like that.. Corporate America, The American Government and the military all do good in the world as well as bad, but a huge amount of the good has a motive, that is fair enough, i dont mind that in a lot of cases.. For instance corporations setting up in other countries suits both sides.. I made the point earlier that a huge proportion of the American people are fantastically good willed, and dont need favours to give generosity.

I brought up world police because of the satirical element of it.

[PJG]

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/42042.html
The WikiLeaks cable dumps have revealed a chasm between establishment attitudes towards truth-telling and furious attempts to protect the embarrassed. The sign of any healthy democracy is the ways in which it deals with the most sensitive of information. Senior media figures and government authorities are often remarkably consistent in their messaging. They move in similar worlds and they often rely on each other for sourcing.

It’s this kind of dangerous, mutual sycophancy that WikiLeaks could break.

Essentially what I want to see these leaks fix.

[Corkboy]

Convenient.  I haven't deleted a single PM I've ever received or sent, and I have no record of it.  I seriously think you have me mistaken with someone else.  Can you at least link me to your posting about it at the time?  Or am I the only one that doesn't get to shift the burden of proof?

If you click on the quote I referenced from July 09, you'll get the thread. I asked one of the mods about recovering the PM, but they said they would have to rewind Rawk or turn back time or something. Over my head, anyway.

Given your bias on the issue, I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to provide you with the conclusive proof that I would need to change your mind on the topic

So the reason you can't provide proof is because of my bias. I see. Incidentally, in what way am I biased when you. for example, are presumably not?

The bottom line is that you don't think people will be harmed by as a result of the publishing of certain information (inlcluding the names of people cooperating coalition forces in Taliban territory..as in the example), and I do.

I don't think they will or won't be harmed. I don't know enough about it so I apply the usual rules of deduction, i.e. if there was going to be harm, there probably would have been by now. I understand what both you and Dava are saying, and it does make sense at first but I still keep coming back to the same question. If harm is so unavoidable, why can't the might of the US govt and military come up with something more than one half assed semi story in four years?

[High_Cotton]

So the reason you can't provide proof is because of my bias. I see.

You asked for proof, and despite the fact that I don't really care to waste my time changing your mind, I felt the responsibility to at least make some effort to find something given the time you'd put in to the counter argument.  You weren't please with what I found.  You found it suspect and inconclusive.  If your views were less entrenched and if you were less biased on the subject, you may have accepted the articles as proof that someone was killed as a result of the leaks.  Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you for not; you gave a reasonable explanation for why you weren't pleased.

Incidentally, in what way am I biased when you. for example, are presumably not?

I never said I wasn't biased.  The fact that I've spent any time arguing a position or viewpoint shows that I do have a bias.  My bias is that it is not unreasonable to think that people will or have lost their lives from the release of certain information from wikileaks.  Yours is that nobody has or will lose their lives due to the release of certain information from wikileaks. Fair enough.  I have no problem with that.  Your passion on the issue is respectable, even if I think you're wrong.

I don't think they will or won't be harmed. I don't know enough about it so I apply the usual rules of deduction, i.e. if there was going to be harm, there probably would have been by now. I understand what both you and Dava are saying, and it does make sense at first but I still keep coming back to the same question. If harm is so unavoidable, why can't the might of the US govt and military come up with something more than one half assed semi story in four years?

...probably for the same reason that the original information was classified.  Maybe your venerable wikileaks will do a little followup reporting? Somehow, I doubt that will happen, as it might ruin their white knight reputation.

[Finn Solomon]

He's being paid by the Chinese. No coincidence all the most embarassing secrets leaked were Western-related.

[conman]

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/116764.pdf

State department republishes Wikileaks' doc. Will they now try to sue themselves?

[Corkboy]

He's being paid by the Chinese. No coincidence all the most embarassing secrets leaked were Western-related.

China made example of Nobel winner Liu: WikiLeaks

MADRID | Thu Dec 9, 2010 9:53pm EST

MADRID (Reuters) - China chose to make an example of Nobel Peace Prize winner Liu Xiaobo by jailing him for 11 years last year during a wider crackdown on dissidents, Spain's El Pais newspaper said on Thursday, citing U.S. diplomatic cables obtained by WikiLeaks.

China has called the award to dissident Liu "an obscenity," while the Nobel Peace Prize panel defended the decision, saying it was based on "universal values."

The cables reported Beijing increased pressure on dissidents last year due to concerns of renewed civil unrest coinciding with the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square protests and the 50th anniversary of the occupation of Tibet.

At that time, the global financial crisis had already fueled social conflict, the like of which China had not seen for a long time, the cables said.

The cables also highlighted the Beijing's anger at protests over Liu's sentence around the world, particularly in Washington and some European capitals.

Five prominent human rights lawyers told U.S. ambassador to China John Huntsman last December that since 2008 human rights abuse in China had entered "its worst phase," the cables said.

source

I don't think you were being serious, Finn, but just in case...

[dalarr]

He's being paid by the Chinese. No coincidence all the most embarassing secrets leaked were Western-related.

I disagree. It may be because you need people with knowledge of the Chinese language and culture, in order to be able to properly translate the documents. I think it's easier to edit the documents when they are in English..that's my opinion anyways

[conman]

[High_Cotton]

Haha... Is Eric Cantona backing it?

[OLDIE]

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/116764.pdf

State department republishes Wikileaks' doc. Will they now try to sue themselves?

And still they lose

[PJG]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/page?id=12348896
 
I guess this clears up their motive.

[Finn Solomon]

China made example of Nobel winner Liu: WikiLeaks
I don't think you were being serious, Finn, but just in case...

That's hardly breaking news. Everyone knew the Chinese were pissed off about this guy getting a Nobel prize before Wikileaks 'broke' the story. Even the Chinese government said so.

[Umbarto]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/page?id=12348896
 
I guess this clears up their motive.

America.  Fuck yeah.

[conman]

WikiLeaks exposing the Vaticans unhappiness at Irish demands for answers to Sex abuse.

Requests for information from the Murphy Commission “offended many in the Vatican” who felt that the Irish government had “failed to respect and protect Vatican sovereignty during the (Commission) investigations”, US embassy cables released by WikiLeaks have disclosed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1211/breaking3.html



See, Wikileaks exposes information that needs to be exposed, So much information has been surpressed, and as a result so many peoples lives have... This is one such example of this..

[conman]

Wikileaks documentary...

http://svtplay.se/v/2264028/wikirebels___the_documentary?cb,a1364145,1,f,-1/pb,a1364142,1,f,-1/pl,v,,2264028/sb,p118750,1,f,-1


Ill watch it later

[_tomd]

Not sure if this has been posted, but this guy's PayPal account, which he uses for his business, was terminated because he donated to WikiLeaks:

http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/ejzfp/paypal_shut_my_account_today_because_my_business/

He's going to record his phone conversation with the helpline, will be keeping an eye out for that on Monday.

[PJG]

Not sure if this has been posted, but this guy's PayPal account, which he uses for his business, was terminated because he donated to WikiLeaks:

http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/ejzfp/paypal_shut_my_account_today_because_my_business/

He's going to record his phone conversation with the helpline, will be keeping an eye out for that on Monday.

I went to that site and saw this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxPB9yy7IJ4&feature=sub
interesting considering his background.

Looks like our world is going to shit.

[Sasquatch]

America.  Fuck yeah.

One of the better Palin fakes I've seen. Almost makes me want to..............................................

[kopite@m45]

.....shoot first ?

[Azi]

hackers have brought the retailer amazon down there sites been down for last 3 hrs

[Phil M]

Wikileaks documentary...

http://svtplay.se/v/2264028/wikirebels___the_documentary?cb,a1364145,1,f,-1/pb,a1364142,1,f,-1/pl,v,,2264028/sb,p118750,1,f,-1


Ill watch it later

Started watching this, very interesting, cheers.

[fudge]

the geeks have just taken down Amazon, impressive

[conman]

the geeks have just taken down Amazon, impressive

these money men CEO's are going to have to make a choice, "lose money or obey the governments request"

[richiedouglas]

the geeks have just taken down Amazon, impressive

That will be hugely expensive for Amazon - could get interesting.

[conman]

That will be hugely expensive for Amazon - could get interesting.

they could be losing millions per hour..

[Phil M]

Will there be any place left to do online xmas shopping?

[conman]

Will there be any place left to do online xmas shopping?

shop local, help out your community

[Phil M]

shop local, help out your community

Nah that involves shopping amongst the public.

[Phil M]

WikiLeaks' Assange says U.S. trying to prosecute him

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20101212/tts-uk-wikileaks-assange-ca02f96.html

[conman]

WikiLeaks' Assange says U.S. trying to prosecute him

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20101212/tts-uk-wikileaks-assange-ca02f96.html

this ties in with the exact argument i was making a page or 2 back, the same pressure by the US is being put on Sweden as was seen with the Pirate Bay, Sweden then abused their laws to arrest the Pirate Bay guys due to the US Gov threatening the country, well we can only imagine what is going on behind the scenes right now.

[conman]

Wikileaks documentary...

http://svtplay.se/v/2264028/wikirebels___the_documentary?cb,a1364145,1,f,-1/pb,a1364142,1,f,-1/pl,v,,2264028/sb,p118750,1,f,-1


Ill watch it later

Started watching this, very interesting, cheers.

actually, id advise everyone in this thread to watch this, especially those condemning Wikileaks and supporting the US military.

[Phil M]

actually, id advise everyone in this thread to watch this, especially those condemning Wikileaks and supporting the US military.

I don't understand the shooting of the messenger when the leaks being supplied are by those within these organsiations such
as the military/government etc etc

[conman]

I don't understand the shooting of the messenger when the leaks being supplied are by those within these organsiations such
as the military/government etc etc

exactly, but one thing that really struck me on those videos was where they mentioned the "shocking disregard for human life by the military", and then it showed multiple clips, one was a guy who was driving his car, he was shot at by a chasing helocoper, so he pulled over, got out put his hands in the air and walked away from the car.. The is quite clearly him saying, i am no threat, im giving up, please dont shoot etc etc... so the attack helicopter sprays him with bullets. There was also the hellfire clip with the passer by walking by a building, but they didnt wait, they took his life too.. So much for the phrases we are so accustomed to hearing about "minimum loss to human life". Its quite easy to see why there have been so many friendly fire deaths and tens of thousands of civilain deaths.

[Corkboy]

I don't understand the shooting of the messenger when the leaks being supplied are by those within these organsiations such
as the military/government etc etc

It's because they're secret. That means we're not allowed to know. So they guys who are letting us know are like drug dealers, and we know what everyone thinks of drug dealers.

[Phil M]

It's because they're secret. That means we're not allowed to know. So they guys who are letting us know are like drug dealers, and we know what everyone thinks of drug dealers.

Inded, my question was quite rhetorical but after viewing the video above I can't help but feel supportive of everything Assange and co.
have achieved and are trying to.