Author Topic: King Kennys master stroke. (Read 10304 times)

Dubit10 · « **on:** May 9, 2012, 10:46:02 am »

Over the season Kenny has taken some abuse and been called out on quite a few of the tactical decisions. One in particular stands out for me and at the time it baffled me. The taking off of Andy Carroll in the Newcastle match was something that i could'nt understand at all. Carroll was unmercifully abused by the fans that formally adored his every move and touch (much worse than Torres experienced last night) and looked visually shattered and humiliated at being dragged off.

In my opinion Andy before then had'nt got his heart in playing for LFC and missed the life he had made for himself in his hometown. It was a masterstroke by Kenny hauling him off as the hatred that the Newcastle had for him now was there for all to see and for Andy there was no going back. The man now looks like he has a point to prove he's got the bit between his teeth and looks hungry.

To be honest it shows what i know about football compared to Kenny. To my own shame i've not backed him 100% this season and have longed for Benitez to be brought back. I for one won't be questioning the King again.

Jimmy Conway · « **Reply #1 on:** May 9, 2012, 10:46:58 am »

Quote from: Dubit10 on May 9, 2012, 10:46:02 am

Over the season Kenny has taken some abuse and been called out on quite a few of the tactical decisions. One in particular stands out for me and at the time it baffled me. The taking off of Andy Carroll in the Newcastle match was something that i could'nt understand at all. Carroll was unmercifully abused by the fans that formally adored his every move and touch (much worse than Torres experienced last night) and looked visually shattered and humiliated at being dragged off.

In my opinion Andy before then had'nt got his heart in playing for LFC and missed the life he had made for himself in his hometown. It was a masterstroke by Kenny hauling him off as the hatred that the Newcastle had for him now was there for all to see and for Andy there was no going back. The man now looks like he has a point to prove he's got the bit between his teeth and looks hungry.

To be honest it shows what i know about football compared to Kenny. To my own shame i've not backed him 100% this season and have longed for Benitez to be brought back. I for one won't be questioning the King again.

Sorry pal, this has been mentioned in other threads. Not cool to try take credit for spotting it.

swoopy · « **Reply #2 on:** May 9, 2012, 10:49:19 am »

Carroll took massive amounts of stick from our own supporters for the "dive" in that game too.

As well as the apparent huge disrespect he showed for going straight down the tunnel, apparently telling Kenny to "F Off" etc etc etc

Since then however he's looked like a fighter that will give his all for the team and a totally different player also.

Dubit10 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 9, 2012, 10:50:17 am »

Quote from: redmanphil on May 9, 2012, 10:46:58 am

Sorry pal, this has been mentioned in other threads. Not cool to try take credit for spotting it.

Thanks but did'nt realise it was in another thread. Mods please delete if you want. Oh and too old to be cool lad.

Chivasino · « **Reply #4 on:** May 9, 2012, 10:51:58 am »

Thought the same:

Quote from: Chivasino on May 9, 2012, 09:26:22 am

A masterstroke from Kenny?

Hook him infront of the fans that once adored him, and the ones he may have wanted to go back to.

He get's a shit load of abuse, adopts a "fuck them!" attitude and realises he has to get on with his career.

I know Kenny was criticised for subbing Andy that day, but it now seems to be the best thing that could've happend to Andy.

rocco · « **Reply #5 on:** May 9, 2012, 11:00:02 am »

A lot of us thought the same after his performance v Blackburn away

Clayton Bigsby · « **Reply #6 on:** May 9, 2012, 11:17:35 am »

Think it is a reach to be honest.

danielfonseca · « **Reply #7 on:** May 9, 2012, 11:22:33 am »

Quote from: redmanphil on May 9, 2012, 10:46:58 am

Sorry pal, this has been mentioned in other threads. Not cool to try take credit for spotting it.
[/quote. Harsh thing to say ! Thanks for the effort blogger

jjasonuk · « **Reply #8 on:** May 9, 2012, 11:25:06 am »

I didn't spot it elsewhere, or even think that it was a ploy. Now you mention it, maybe you are right. Good spot (among others)

Gnurglan · « **Reply #9 on:** May 9, 2012, 11:43:25 am »

Not sure it was a calculated masterstroke by Kenny. Carroll wasn't very good in that game vs Newcastle. It was the right decision to bring him off.

But nevertheless, it's worked a treat. The response from Carroll has been impressive. He's finally started to look like a player who can have an impact on games and quite a big one too. I can only hope that this is the start of something new and not a short peak in form.

-RedTilDead- · « **Reply #10 on:** May 9, 2012, 11:45:33 am »

Quote from: Dubit10 on May 9, 2012, 10:46:02 am

To be honest it shows what i know about football compared to Kenny. To my own shame i've not backed him 100% this season and have longed for Benitez to be brought back. I for one won't be questioning the King again.

You can back Kenny and question decisions at the same time ; questioning is healthy.

As for the Newcastle game (and subbing) it certainly does seem to have been a brilliant catalyst for Carroll's improvement. Whether it was intentional or not we will never know.

Lady_brandybuck · « **Reply #11 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:17:10 pm »

Pity that the Newcastle game couldn't be earlier in the season.

Whatever is the case, I hope he keeps on working as hard as he has done, he's still a young player with a few years ahead to improve. He showed us now that he haas the quality if he's arsed.

Kashinoda · « **Reply #12 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:19:08 pm »

Quote from: Clayton Bigsby on May 9, 2012, 11:17:35 am

Think it is a reach to be honest.

Pendzo · « **Reply #13 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:22:11 pm »

Quote from: -RedTilDead- on May 9, 2012, 11:45:33 am

You can back Kenny and question decisions at the same time ; questioning is healthy.

As for the Newcastle game (and subbing) it certainly does seem to have been a brilliant catalyst for Carroll's improvement. Whether it was intentional or not we will never know.

This. But i'd like to think that it was intentional

BEAST · « **Reply #14 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:24:02 pm »

AK47 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:25:58 pm »

Well if it was a master stroke it worked but personally I think Carroll was just playing naff so deserved to be subed

I feel it's a shame we took a year to find a way to motivate the guy, I appreciate some of that must come from him, he had to want to change, but I do feel that we could have somehow achieved this earlier and less painfully for Andy than letting the toon fans rip him apart.

Fromola · « **Reply #16 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:29:53 pm »

Do you honestly think Kenny decided to take him off so he'd be humiliated and destroyed by the Newcastle fans and have Carroll tell him to fuck off and storm down the tunnel, just so it'd fire him up to improve?

That's how it worked out, but I hardly think that was an intended strategy.

Zlen · « **Reply #17 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:34:47 pm »

Nah..

kdorg · « **Reply #18 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:36:51 pm »

I don't think it was intentional in quite the way some are describing but I do think Kenny figured out prior to Newcastle actually that Andy was the kind of person who responds best to the stick.

Some people do better with some support, arm round the shoulder, knowing they are believed in. And Kenny tried this approach, he kept the faith for quite a while in the hope Andy would play himself into form.

Then he dropped him and subbed him in late and Andy played better and at that point he knew that Andy was more motivated by the stick, by being angry and by thinking 'fuck you' than he was by love and understanding.

So, it would be fair to say, that whilst I don't think Kenny specifically thought 'we'll humiliate him and it will do him the world of good", as Carroll got hooked off for tactical reasons - I also think Kenny made the call knowing that he didn't have to worry about the motivational affect on Andy, or the effect such a move would have on confidence. Because he'd already found out through trial an error Andy Carroll doesn't respond to warm fuzzy, arm around the shoulder, look after the confidence stuff, he responds to a great big boot up the arse.

MatthewRedBlood · « **Reply #19 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:39:50 pm »

Quote from: MatthewRedBlood on May 5, 2012, 09:08:29 pm

For me his turning point was Newcastle away.

Just a personal theory, might not agree, but i think in the back of his mind he always thought "They still love me in Newcastle, and if it goes tits up here, i can still go back" and then he went to St James's and got laughed at and ridiculed. Maybe he's just thought "fuck you then, i'll do it here and prove you wrong".

Since that game he's been very good when we've played him...

Or what you said, a run of games. Played well today, but should of scored that header.

ThepepeReina · « **Reply #20 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:40:26 pm »

Not a chance. Having a poor game, hauled off, has found some motivation from somwhere and said fuck it lets give this a real go.

Discipline · « **Reply #21 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:42:09 pm »

Nearly had a stroke after seeing the thread title.

zuchum · « **Reply #22 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:43:32 pm »

Quote from: BEAST on May 9, 2012, 12:24:02 pm

HarleyKewell7 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:43:44 pm »

Think it's a discredit to Carroll to say that Kenny masterminded such a move. I would also hope that our manager wasn't playing such a risky game with a £35m investment, given that it could still go either way despite significant recent improvements.

schmev · « **Reply #24 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:48:27 pm »

I think everyone should enjoy a masterful stroke or several.

Maybe it was brilliant to tear the kid down in front of what he thought he was, a Newcastle player returning to his former home. I think it wasn't masterful at all.

Carroll wasn't the worst player on the field that day, but he also wasn't among the best so he was a legit target to substitute.

I'm definitely glad to watch Andy win every single ball in the air and do it with style. He's also doing some fine tackling and rewinning balls. I think he's settled and I'm also glad we have a player like Suarez, a former captain who should be a captain, who wants to get everyone involved in the game. Carroll will shine.

QC · « **Reply #25 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:49:01 pm »

Don't buy this at all.

pistolpete · « **Reply #26 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:51:17 pm »

Kenny would surely have weighed up the pros and cons of substituting Carroll in that game tho?

You could argue whether the decision would affect him postively/negatively.....Kenny gambled it right.

kkjellquist · « **Reply #27 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:54:32 pm »

Like others have said...maybe that was a mental turning point for AC, but there's no way Kenny planned it. KK surely would have preferred a couple goals instead of a subbing off and disrespect.

PaulF · « **Reply #28 on:** May 9, 2012, 12:55:00 pm »

Regardless of intent, or whether it really worked, it does highlight what real 'motivation' is about. I'm sick of hearing that 'for the salary he's on he should be running his heart out week in week out'. Some people are purely motivated by money, but ultimately players feel like that pay check will be there regardless of how hard they work.

illustrator28 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:10:51 pm »

Yeah Kenny planned it and then went on to plan to leave it until the last 30 mins to get him to come on and win it as any earlier and it would be too fucking easy like.

buzzing · « **Reply #30 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:13:44 pm »

Quote from: Gnurglan on May 9, 2012, 11:43:25 am

Not sure it was a calculated masterstroke by Kenny. Carroll wasn't very good in that game vs Newcastle. It was the right decision to bring him off.

1021 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:17:53 pm »

I'll admit to being really angry with Carroll for his conduct in the Newcastle game and upon his substitution, but his performances since then have been superb.

I've felt that though Carroll means well, his Liverpool career had been tempered with a sort of homesickness, if he could have still been in black and white he would have.

But that St James' Park return seems to have helped him turn the corner, he's not missed up there and he's got a career at the finest Club in the country to fight for.

Hopefully Hodgson leaves him at home this summer, and he'll start next season with the bit between his teeth.

Fromola · « **Reply #32 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:19:39 pm »

Quote from: pistolpete on May 9, 2012, 12:51:17 pm

Kenny would surely have weighed up the pros and cons of substituting Carroll in that game tho?

You could argue whether the decision would affect him postively/negatively.....Kenny gambled it right.

He took him off because he'd been booked, wasn't playing well and was getting increasingly agitated. He took him off before he was sent off and because he wasn't having a positive influence on the game.

Ever since he's played really well. And he was playing well before that game as well. That Newcastle performance was more an exception in terms of Carroll not playing well this year, and that turn he did before the dive was first class. If he'd stuck that away it'd have been a great goal.

gamble · « **Reply #33 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:28:38 pm »

I don't buy this either. as much as I love kenny he isn't that clever and after the newcastle match carroll could have gone either way.

recently though we have been struggling and with that andy's role has become a lot simpler - just get us some goals.

when he came on last saturday he caused merry mayhem because he wasn't thinking about anything else other than just getting us a goal to get back in the came.

when the pressure was on, he became a diamond. didn't know if he would work out here (and still don't if the style of play changes again) but he has proven he is a real menace. i love that big geordie so much.

Flinstone · « **Reply #34 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:36:39 pm »

HE WAS PLAYING WELL BEFORE NEWCASTLE.

pistolpete · « **Reply #35 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:37:15 pm »

Quote from: Fromola on May 9, 2012, 01:19:39 pm

He took him off because he'd been booked, wasn't playing well and was getting increasingly agitated. He took him off before he was sent off and because he wasn't having a positive influence on the game.

Ever since he's played really well. And he was playing well before that game as well. That Newcastle performance was more an exception in terms of Carroll not playing well this year, and that turn he did before the dive was first class. If he'd stuck that away it'd have been a great goal.

Cant argue with that. But he will surely have considered that taking him off could affect the lad's confidence/attitude positively or negatively....

For example Torres was having no impact on the game last night. What impact would it have had on his newly rediscovered confidence had be been taken off and been subjected to the kind of abuse Carrol got when he returned to SJP?

Suareznumber7 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:40:16 pm »

I thought at the time, and still do, that was probably one of the biggest man management mistakes made by Kenny this year. Or, at least, the most public mistake.

Really don't think it had anything to do with the upturn in Andy's form.

Mutton Geoff · « **Reply #37 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:41:55 pm »

He was playing well before but he wasnt getting the breaks and scoring the difference now is he is and his game has improved as his confidence has got bigger, shame he didnt bury that cross last night though, but still man of the match for me.

Also I wonder if this extra training that I think it was Brad mentioned is paying off with the extra fitness and better mobility around the pitch.

Suareznumber7 · « **Reply #38 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:43:27 pm »

Quote from: geoffstrong on May 9, 2012, 01:41:55 pm

Also I wonder if this extra training that I think it was Brad mentioned is paying off with the extra fitness and better mobility around the pitch.

I can guarantee it's not hurting that's for sure.

Purdy · « **Reply #39 on:** May 9, 2012, 01:46:21 pm »

No.
Was it a master stroke to leave him out on Saturday after being one of the few who gave a shit vs fulham and scored the winner vs everton?