Author Topic: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?  (Read 24714 times)

Offline cornishscouser92

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The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« on: August 22, 2022, 04:34:59 pm »
Apologies if there's already a thread like this
https://www.ft.com/content/778e65e1-6ec5-4fd7-98d5-9d701eb29567

Inflation due to hit 18.6%, highest since '76.
Energy bill cap due to rise to nearly £6k
Fuel £1.70 a litre
Wages stagnating and not keeping up with inflation

A huge challenge/problem for which ever political persuasion you take
What does the govt do?
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2022, 04:39:29 pm »
Apologies if there's already a thread like this
https://www.ft.com/content/778e65e1-6ec5-4fd7-98d5-9d701eb29567

Inflation due to hit 18.6%, highest since '76.
Energy bill cap due to rise to nearly £6k
Fuel £1.70 a litre
Wages stagnating and not keeping up with inflation

A huge challenge/problem for which ever political persuasion you take
What does the govt do?

This govt? Nothing.

Offline cornishscouser92

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2022, 04:40:43 pm »
This govt? Nothing.

You're probably correct, but rather than turn it into a political thread. What can they do? Raise interest rates to 10%?
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2022, 04:41:59 pm »
You're probably correct, but rather than turn it into a political thread. What can they do? Raise interest rates to 10%?

Not unless we want hundreds of thousands of people homeless.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2022, 04:43:10 pm »
What does the govt do?

Never mind what the government do.

What do the people do? Get on the streets, protest, refuse to pay bills etc

Imagine if this was France.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2022, 04:45:04 pm »
You're probably correct, but rather than turn it into a political thread. What can they do? Raise interest rates to 10%?

Not sure that forcing people to sell their homes is the answer.

Offline cornishscouser92

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2022, 04:45:35 pm »
Not unless we want hundreds of thousands of people homeless.

Surely loads are going to be made homeless if inflation hits 18%?
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Offline cornishscouser92

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2022, 04:46:55 pm »
Not sure that forcing people to sell their homes is the answer.

I wouldn't advocate that either, but what other measures can be taken to combat inflation? State control of the energy sector? Given fuel/energy is a key driver in inflation
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2022, 04:47:42 pm »
Not unless we want hundreds of thousands of people homeless.

Possibly coming anyway.

Who can afford the scandalous rents (should be reduced and then capped by law), who can afford the outrageous energy bills, utility firms should be nationalized and bills cut. The likes of BP and Shell should have massive windfall taxes imposed and the money used to help sort this shit out.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2022, 04:48:04 pm »
Surely loads are going to be made homeless if inflation hits 18%?

Yes, but why make the situation worse!

Inflation is being driven by fossil fuel prices and huge earnings/profits by CEOs and big corporations/shareholders.


CEO pay survey 2022: CEO pay surges 39%

High Pay Centre and TUC research finds that median FTSE 100 CEO pay increased from £2.46m in 2020 to £3.41m in 2021


Quote
Our new report shows that the FTSE 100 CEO pay increased from £2.46m in 2020 to £3.41m in 2021. Median CEO pay is now 109 times that of the median UK full-time worker, compared to 79 times in 2020 and 107 times in 2019. Median CEO pay also up on pre pandemic levels – reflected by an increase of 5% from £3.25m median CEO pay in 2019.

Pascal Soriot of AstraZeneca, last year’s highest paid CEO, was overtaken by Sebastien De Montessus of Endeavour, who earned £16.85m. Pascal Soriot earned £13.86m, followed by Albert Manifold of CRH, who earned £11.68m.

The ten FTSE 100 companies with the highest CEO pay were as follows:

The analysis also found that:

    FTSE 100 firms spent nearly three quarters of a billion on executive pay, with £720.21m awarded to 224 executives.
    FTSE 250 CEOs saw a similar 38% pay increase, with median pay rising from £1.25m in 2020 to £1.72m in 2021.
    FTSE 100 CEOs annual bonuses leapt to £1.4m compared to £828k in 2020 and £1.1m in 2019. 90% of CEOs received a bonus.

This research raises questions around inequality, pay and responsible business practice in the UK. Very high executive pay is a big part of the cost of living problem. If large employers are paying millions more to already very wealthy executives, that makes it harder to fund pay increases for low and middle income workers. If incomes in the UK were shared more evenly, that would significantly raise the living standards of the people hit hardest by the current economic crisis.

Excessive CEO pay reflects widening inequality that is experienced across the UK more generally.

The High Pay Centre and TUC are calling for reforms to regulations affecting the corporate pay-setting process including

    Requirements for companies to include a minimum of two elected workforce representatives on the remuneration committees that set pay.
    Guaranteed trade union access to workplaces to tell workers about the benefits of union membership and collective bargaining.
    Requirements for companies to provide more detailed disclosure of pay for top earners beyond the executives, and low earners including indirectly employed workers, enabling more informed pay negotiations at individual companies and a clearer debate about pay inequality more generally.


How long will the 0.1 % be allowed to continually screw the rest of us over for......?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 04:51:53 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2022, 04:49:01 pm »
Inflation being out of control is obviously not good, but I' don't think a bit higher inflation that we've been used to is as bad as often made out.

If it's matched by wage rises, it's great for people who have more debts than savings - which is most people in the UK.

Offline cornishscouser92

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2022, 04:54:29 pm »
Inflation being out of control is obviously not good, but I' don't think a bit higher inflation that we've been used to is as bad as often made out.

If it's matched by wage rises, it's great for people who have more debts than savings - which is most people in the UK.

Could end up with stagflation though, which is looking more likely..
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2022, 04:56:54 pm »
Could end up with stagflation though, which is looking more likely..

Well yeah, but I guess I'm making the point that should focus more on the stagnation part than the inflation part.

I'm no economist though!

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2022, 05:01:40 pm »
Could end up with stagflation though, which is looking more likely..

WTF is stagflation?

Time to stop messing around with all this nonsense and just sort people out.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2022, 05:14:13 pm »
WTF is stagflation?

Time to stop messing around with all this nonsense and just sort people out.
Inflation. Yet no growth….

My only hope is that it devalues the enormous value of my mortgage debt…. Some hope…. Pay freeze last year… effectively -5%.  This year 5% pay rise, effectively -5%

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2022, 05:20:26 pm »
Inflation being out of control is obviously not good, but I' don't think a bit higher inflation that we've been used to is as bad as often made out.

If it's matched by wage rises, it's great for people who have more debts than savings - which is most people in the UK.

A bit higher is one thing, 13-18% is a whole other ball game.

Wages for most people are never going to come close to that.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2022, 05:27:01 pm »
A bit higher is one thing, 13-18% is a whole other ball game.

Wages for most people are never going to come close to that.

Sure, but raising rates to 10% to counter inflation is getting the balance all wrong, is all I'm saying.

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2022, 05:29:09 pm »
Inflation. Yet no growth….

My only hope is that it devalues the enormous value of my mortgage debt…. Some hope…. Pay freeze last year… effectively -5%.  This year 5% pay rise, effectively -5%

About time the world got over this insistent need for growth. It's not sustainable.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2022, 05:32:28 pm »
About time the world got over this insistent need for growth. It's not sustainable.
No growth means things get worse for the average person ….so I’m not sure I share your sentiment…
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2022, 05:35:12 pm »
No growth means things get worse for the average person ….so I’m not sure I share your sentiment…

Continual growth doesn't seem to be doing much for the average person.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2022, 05:36:45 pm »
Sure, but raising rates to 10% to counter inflation is getting the balance all wrong, is all I'm saying.

Completely, it might deal with inflation but the collateral damage will be huge on a human and financial level.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2022, 05:39:34 pm »
Continual growth doesn't seem to be doing much for the average person.

There hasn’t been any proper growth since before the financial crash, we had one year of 3% growth since 2010, austerity being a huge reason for that.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2022, 05:57:03 pm »
Continual growth doesn't seem to be doing much for the average person.
Lack of growth has always been really bad for the average person… you can go back to Tudor times even….
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2022, 06:02:13 pm »
There is a valid point that the world at large and individual countries can't go on indefinitely growing forever. We ultimagely have to find a way to distribute wealth more evenly without any more growth. Who knows what the limit is though,

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2022, 08:01:51 pm »
There is a valid point that the world at large and individual countries can't go on indefinitely growing forever. We ultimagely have to find a way to distribute wealth more evenly without any more growth. Who knows what the limit is though,
Yep. World resources are limited. At some point, further growth will become impossible. So, somehow, the world needs to adjust to a situation where there is net zero growth (or even prolonged contraction). The problem is that - so far, or so far as I know - no nation has ever managed to maintain confidence while the economy is stagnant, let alone contracting.

Perhaps an economist here will come along and correct me in my assumption about future growth and/or how confidence might maintained with a contracting economy - I (genuinely) do hope so!
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2022, 10:22:58 pm »
Just seen the bins in eninburgh on the news. Yep, its the 1970s. Just need the candles out next

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2022, 11:54:46 pm »
You're probably correct, but rather than turn it into a political thread. What can they do? Raise interest rates to 10%?
Well as energy prices appear to be the driver for inflation, how about not allowing the energy companies to triple what they can charge by next April?

France's inflation is currently 6%, UK is 10%

The French government limited the price rise of energy to 4%, EDF, one of the big 6 in the UK is state owned in France.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2022, 07:30:18 am »
Yep. World resources are limited. At some point, further growth will become impossible. So, somehow, the world needs to adjust to a situation where there is net zero growth (or even prolonged contraction). The problem is that - so far, or so far as I know - no nation has ever managed to maintain confidence while the economy is stagnant, let alone contracting.

Perhaps an economist here will come along and correct me in my assumption about future growth and/or how confidence might maintained with a contracting economy - I (genuinely) do hope so!

This is the million dollar question though isn´t it?! We have an entire global financial system built on the idea that all economies should be striving towards continual growth all the time. Stagnancy is considered  a failure - meanwhile contraction is considered disasterous.

It is clear as day that not all of the world can grow to the point where we are now in the West - at least along our current lines of development. The planet simply cannot handle it. The planet cannot handle where we are at right now - with only a fraction of the global population having the amount of stuff that we do. Yet simultaneously we can´t just expect the rest of the world to stay poor so we can continue to live grossly wasteful consumerist lifestyles in the Western world.

I don´t buy the idea that we need to have continual growth to live decent and meaningful lives. Tepid is right when he says that up until now lack of growth has meant things get worse for the average person. But that is because up until only 80 or so years ago there were many people in the West still living in actual squalor. And even the superwealthy didn´t use half as much resources as we use now.

But we´re now at a stage where, for some significant segments of the population, not owning a massive flatscreen TV and Land Rover is considered a failure - meanwhile there are people elsewhere in the world who are still living in squalor (in fact there people in the very same country regressing to conditions not far off it). And that is not even mentioning all the billionaires and their obscene levels of consumerist wealth.

Changing mindsets in the West towards what makes for a good lifestyle is one thing. But changing en entire global economic system based entirely on the idea of the need for growth, when many people in the developing world are looking on at what we have in the West, is a different thing entirely.

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2022, 10:00:17 am »
1870's more like.

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2022, 10:06:00 am »
Don't know how you change it.
I tell the missus I want to move and live a less consumerist more sustainable life somewhere without all the modern shite and raise our kid differently to us and she just looks at me like I'm crazy.

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2022, 10:21:43 am »
Don't know how you change it.
I tell the missus I want to move and live a less consumerist more sustainable life somewhere without all the modern shite and raise our kid differently to us and she just looks at me like I'm crazy.

I don't think you're crazy at all mate.

Maybe a good thing to come of this crisis is people being more appreciative and less wasteful of the life they do have.


Offline McSquared

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2022, 10:40:26 am »
Just waiting to spot the white dog shit again

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2022, 11:01:08 am »
Sure, but raising rates to 10% to counter inflation is getting the balance all wrong, is all I'm saying.

The biggest challenge with increasing rates is that this bout on inflation isn't demand driven its supply. There's shortages of so many of the raw materials that drive the economy.

Jacking up interest rates is not going to reduce spending on essential items.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2022, 11:27:14 am »
Yep. World resources are limited. At some point, further growth will become impossible. So, somehow, the world needs to adjust to a situation where there is net zero growth (or even prolonged contraction). The problem is that - so far, or so far as I know - no nation has ever managed to maintain confidence while the economy is stagnant, let alone contracting.

Perhaps an economist here will come along and correct me in my assumption about future growth and/or how confidence might maintained with a contracting economy - I (genuinely) do hope so!

I disagree. Technological improvement is essentially 'growth'.
Same area of field, bring in machinery to plough and harvest and you reduce the cost of the crops. That's essentially growth.  Bring in pesticides and GM crops , yet more growth. 
I'm not going down the 'never say never' route, but I believe never ending growth is achievable.


--edit-- it needs a huge mindshift.  For now growth is seen as a person having more stuff.  I think we need to learn to accept we have more than enough stuff already
--edit edit-- obviously, some people have WAaaay too much stuff, and many not enough yet.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2022, 11:28:45 am by PaulF »
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2022, 01:03:59 pm »
1970's indeed...

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Cutting taxes and growing deficit in face of high inflation has clear echoes of Ted Heath in 1973. Could not be further from Thatcher who famously took v unpopular decision to raise taxes in 1981 to manage deficit and inflation.

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Interesting that the @PJTheEconomist from @TheIFS agrees with me that @trussliz has policies far more like Ted Heath than Margaret Thatcher. Is that really what @Conservatives want?

https://twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/status/1561829277968089088
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2022, 01:15:59 pm »
Well some of us can remember the three day week and somehow in the great collective consciousness of the U.K., it was Labour's fault so I suppose they're working on blaming this on Labour.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2022, 01:26:10 pm »
Well some of us can remember the three day week and somehow in the great collective consciousness of the U.K., it was Labour's fault so I suppose they're working on blaming this on Labour.
They will try to blame Labour for encouraging wage strikes that have fuelled inflation. give it 6 months and the argument will be we could have had Inflation down except for the Unions.
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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2022, 01:34:49 pm »
Well some of us can remember the three day week and somehow in the great collective consciousness of the U.K., it was Labour's fault so I suppose they're working on blaming this on Labour.
For those of us that can't remember. What was the cause\reason\purpose of it?
I'm guessing it wasn't so we could all kick back and chill for four days a week?
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2022, 01:35:27 pm »
Well some of us can remember the three day week and somehow in the great collective consciousness of the U.K., it was Labour's fault so I suppose they're working on blaming this on Labour.

3 day week and power cuts at any random times of the day. 

Some enterprising person needs to start mass producing candles and restoring some parafin lamps.

I'd best make sure we've got plenty of batteries for our head torches too if we can't rely on rechargeables 😁

FFS what a state we're in 🤷

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Re: The UK Economy - Is it the 1970's again?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2022, 01:45:54 pm »
For those of us that can't remember. What was the cause\reason\purpose of it?
I'm guessing it wasn't so we could all kick back and chill for four days a week?
inflation was out of control, the Heath government tried to impose below inflation increases to public sector pay, the miners and the railway workers voted to go on strike which meant the coal fired power stations couldn't get coal so the government imposed a three day week to try to limit demand.

They then called an election in February 1974 and lost their majority.

It's uncanny the similarities with today
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