Author Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance  (Read 242752 times)

Offline KC7

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5080 on: April 28, 2024, 04:57:36 pm »
Because some of us haven't thrown in the towel

I think we all knew by the Palace game.

I did tell someone at the time if we freezed the table after that game and then showed it to us back in August we'd have got very excited. Level on points at the top, 6 games left, with only GD separating us. Problem was living in the now we could see the constant struggles in every game. Wide open midfield defensively, disjointed, inability to grind out wins. Every game was going to be a rollercoaster, and you dont win leagues that way.

I think had Jurgen stayed one more season he'd have finally got the required 6, the midfield would have been up and running (plus the 8s would be fully accustomed to the team), the team would have looked more complete and would have functioned more like a Klopp team.
 

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5081 on: April 28, 2024, 06:08:27 pm »
Because some of us haven't thrown in the towel

It's time to throw in the towel.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5082 on: April 28, 2024, 06:12:26 pm »
I think we all knew by the Palace game.

I did tell someone at the time if we freezed the table after that game and then showed it to us back in August we'd have got very excited. Level on points at the top, 6 games left, with only GD separating us. Problem was living in the now we could see the constant struggles in every game. Wide open midfield defensively, disjointed, inability to grind out wins. Every game was going to be a rollercoaster, and you dont win leagues that way.

I think had Jurgen stayed one more season he'd have finally got the required 6, the midfield would have been up and running (plus the 8s would be fully accustomed to the team), the team would have looked more complete and would have functioned more like a Klopp team.
 

All hindsight talk. Our strikers have let us down at the clutch time of the year. That’s the long and short of it. It’s ok to admit the truth - we let an amazing position turn to crap after all the hard work earlier in the year.

If we learn from the experience then it can be the making of us in future years.
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5083 on: April 28, 2024, 06:16:52 pm »
I think we all knew by the Palace game.

I did tell someone at the time if we freezed the table after that game and then showed it to us back in August we'd have got very excited. Level on points at the top, 6 games left, with only GD separating us. Problem was living in the now we could see the constant struggles in every game. Wide open midfield defensively, disjointed, inability to grind out wins. Every game was going to be a rollercoaster, and you dont win leagues that way.

I think had Jurgen stayed one more season he'd have finally got the required 6, the midfield would have been up and running (plus the 8s would be fully accustomed to the team), the team would have looked more complete and would have functioned more like a Klopp team.

If we won every game after Palace at best we'd have lost it on goal difference to Arsenal. No way Everton or United would have done us a favour.

Everyone knew we'd fucked it that day.
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Offline KC7

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5084 on: April 28, 2024, 07:12:57 pm »
If we won every game after Palace at best we'd have lost it on goal difference to Arsenal. No way Everton or United would have done us a favour.

Everyone knew we'd fucked it that day.

Absoutely. As gutted as I was though after the Palace game I did think it's a position we would have taken in August. We didn't know what to expect back then, and it's been quite a freakish season in many respects. The Spurs debacle, all those comebacks (the Newcastle game where we had been pummeled for 75), conceding 6 in two games against a gash United at OT, dominating possession but looking vulnerable in every game (bar maybe 5 where we weren't on the edge of our seat), it's been wild.

Putting aside the fact the 6 isnt good enough, we started the season with a completely new midfield (in addition to Jones). As Andy Brassell said on a podcast its unheard of for a top side to do that in one transfer window. So in that context the season has been a massive success. Circa 80 points and a Cup. The shitty thing is Jurgen is leaving, when it was next season, with one obvious upgrade, that would have been the one where were would have looked much more the part. It's one season too soon from Jurgen in that regard (also in regard to the avaibility of Alonso). It's a pity for him that he couldn't complete his next era team and reap the rewards from it, the hope is Slot is the one who will.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 07:16:19 pm by KC7 »

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5085 on: April 28, 2024, 07:58:27 pm »
Not trying to be some smart arse but I knew after the Brighton game and then United. We were hanging on and clawing games back and looked spent. The other two were scoring for fun. I wasn’t even surprised or annoyed by Palace. The writing was on the wall once they both overtook us and it was pretty obvious we weren’t going to win all of our games even then.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5086 on: April 28, 2024, 08:07:00 pm »
Not trying to be some smart arse but I knew after the Brighton game and then United. We were hanging on and clawing games back and looked spent. The other two were scoring for fun. I wasn’t even surprised or annoyed by Palace. The writing was on the wall once they both overtook us and it was pretty obvious we weren’t going to win all of our games even then.

I thought we were ok against Brighton but that doesnt look anything convincing in retrospect. Its against Sheffield United we didnt look great. Basically we have become poor in both boxes like last season.

Ultimately we cant complain, we are the third best side. Thats fine for now.

Offline Zlen

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5087 on: April 28, 2024, 08:07:06 pm »
Fuck this season really. Another nail in the coffin of football. Cheats winning again. Utter horror show with referees. Mountain of injuries.

That period where we played the kids was the best.

Offline rossipersempre

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5088 on: April 28, 2024, 08:13:21 pm »
Ultimately we cant complain, we are the third best side. Thats fine for now.
Second or third makes no odds as I never expected us to win the PL. Making the Europa League Final in Dublin however... *sigh*
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5089 on: April 28, 2024, 08:14:51 pm »
Honestly if I was given at the statrt of the season that we would Win a Cup and qualify for the CL I would have taken it.
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Offline rossipersempre

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5090 on: April 28, 2024, 08:20:42 pm »
Honestly if I was given at the statrt of the season that we would Win a Cup and in doing so, automatically qualify for the CL I would have taken it.
Just that one tweak for me  :(
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5091 on: April 28, 2024, 08:32:15 pm »
Just that one tweak for me  :(

Yeah maybe ;D
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5092 on: April 29, 2024, 08:01:32 am »
Because some of us haven't thrown in the towel

Looks like the team have.
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5093 on: April 29, 2024, 08:53:20 am »
Palace was both at the time and in hindsight the final nail in our league season. I think you can also look at the FA Cup exit, in hindsight, as some sort of turning point in our form. Its weird because I for one wasn't as bothered at the time but it looks like it did get to the players in some way.

Another thing that is becoming apparent is that City/Arsenal aren't dropping anywhere near the amount of points people were predicting in this thread with 8-9 games left.

Arsenal just came through their worst week of the season unscathed and with Bournemouth, United and Everton left look very likely to win their last 3.

City are doing the thing that we have not been able to do it feels a single time all season - score early, control a game, and get a second goal early enough to then relax for the final quarter of a game. It feels like win or lose we had to go helter-skelter every single match of the season.

Offline Knight

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5094 on: April 29, 2024, 08:59:48 am »
All hindsight talk. Our strikers have let us down at the clutch time of the year. That’s the long and short of it. It’s ok to admit the truth - we let an amazing position turn to crap after all the hard work earlier in the year.

If we learn from the experience then it can be the making of us in future years.

We’ve underperformed in both boxes. We’ve been conceding for fun recently. And we’ve consistently gone behind all season.

Offline Schmarn

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5095 on: April 29, 2024, 09:39:32 am »

Who knew that our performance at Man Utd in the league would actually be the high point of the run-in. By comparison we played brilliantly that day bar the usual shite finishing.

Can't wait for the season to end. I'm hoping with Edwards back in the club, we'll be able to bring in a few new players that suit our system (or whatever it will be). Despite the great efforts of Endo it's clear we still need a 6. Take Rodri or Rice out of our rivals and they would be nowhere near where they are.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5096 on: April 29, 2024, 09:41:05 am »
Who is the inbred cheating c*nt that is match-fixing our game on Sunday - anyone know?
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Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5097 on: April 29, 2024, 10:27:07 am »
Palace was both at the time and in hindsight the final nail in our league season. I think you can also look at the FA Cup exit, in hindsight, as some sort of turning point in our form. Its weird because I for one wasn't as bothered at the time but it looks like it did get to the players in some way.

Another thing that is becoming apparent is that City/Arsenal aren't dropping anywhere near the amount of points people were predicting in this thread with 8-9 games left.

Arsenal just came through their worst week of the season unscathed and with Bournemouth, United and Everton left look very likely to win their last 3.

City are doing the thing that we have not been able to do it feels a single time all season - score early, control a game, and get a second goal early enough to then relax for the final quarter of a game. It feels like win or lose we had to go helter-skelter every single match of the season.

I don't really understand how one cup game can influence the rest of your season unless your players have really poor mentalities but ours proved they don't by coming back from a goal down so many times or by winning tough games near the end of the game.

For me, there's more to it than just losing that game. We've exited cups before and still looked good in the remaining league games.

I agree that anyone saying City will lose games in their run in is mainly optimism. They just don't lose game when they are in position to win the title and they couldn't have hand picked their run in any better than they've got it.

I knew Arsenal would slip up and they did to Villa (thought it might be the Spurs game).

Both teams will win out from here.

If we had won all ours we'd have finished 2nd still IMO. I just don't think winning our games affects City. They are a machine and only have their slips early on in seasons mainly where they have more than enough time to come back.
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Offline Razors Razor

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5098 on: April 29, 2024, 09:48:11 pm »
Honestly if I was given at the statrt of the season that we would Win a Cup and qualify for the CL I would have taken it.

Agree 100%. I think when the dust settles others will think the same. It is a shame how the season has ended, but at the end of the day we won a cup from the 4 competitions we were in. Not many teams can say that. Plus of course back in the CL.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5099 on: April 29, 2024, 09:50:45 pm »
Who is the inbred cheating c*nt that is match-fixing our game on Sunday - anyone know?

There wont be a need wouldnt shock me if we got a few calls now.

Offline Redbonnie

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5100 on: April 30, 2024, 07:52:13 am »
Second or third makes no odds as I never expected us to win the PL. Making the Europa League Final in Dublin however... *sigh*

This …that would have been some party. Gutted over that more than anything.

Offline GreatEx

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5101 on: May 2, 2024, 01:55:19 am »
This …that would have been some party. Gutted over that more than anything.

It's interesting that the accepted narrative is that one or both of the OT games derailed our season, but no one mentions Atalanta. After all, that was the first time we served up a stinker of a performance where we were out-coached and outperformed in every aspect of the game, plus it ended Fortress Anfield. It was only after that game that we started to look bereft of ideas or confidence. I reckon the team probably thought Dublin would be the big celebration of Klopp’s reign and didn't cope with its sudden withdrawal.

Offline Caps4444

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5102 on: May 2, 2024, 04:41:51 am »
And we will be in the top group of seeds for the CL.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5103 on: May 2, 2024, 04:59:02 am »
Only 3 matches left with the gaffer but both he and the squad looks bereft of energy, motivation and ideas. Can we collectively pick ourselves up for the last three?
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5104 on: May 2, 2024, 06:04:51 am »
Fuck this season really. Another nail in the coffin of football. Cheats winning again. Utter horror show with referees. Mountain of injuries.

That period where we played the kids was the best.

I think Arsenal are now favourites. Their last three games are easier than City's last four games.

Offline Macc77

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5105 on: May 2, 2024, 08:49:50 am »
And we will be in the top group of seeds for the CL.

That doesn't really matter anymore under the new CL 'one big group of 36' rules. Every club will play 2 games against the top 9 seeds, 2 games against the second group of nine, 2 games against third group of nine and 2 games against the final nine. We've as much chance of playing Real and Bayern (for example) as Girona or Villa have.

Offline elkun

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5106 on: May 4, 2024, 08:17:49 pm »
Watching this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_iSRt2F2BNM

Those chances if only 50% of them had been scored we would have been still in the title race

Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5107 on: May 11, 2024, 04:28:26 pm »
Mathematically out of the title race. 11th May.

Offline LFCEmpire

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5108 on: May 11, 2024, 05:22:37 pm »
Mathematically out of the title race. 11th May.

Not too shabby if we look where we were after last season. Winning a cup and being back in CL is the perfect foundation for us building a team ready to win another title. Optimism.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5109 on: May 11, 2024, 05:25:37 pm »
Mathematically out of the title race. 11th May.

Good process.
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5110 on: May 12, 2024, 07:08:39 am »
Not too shabby if we look where we were after last season. Winning a cup and being back in CL is the perfect foundation for us building a team ready to win another title. Optimism.

Okay, Opta
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5111 on: May 12, 2024, 07:26:08 am »
The run-in is frustration. Because of the sea of injuries you had the replacement players being knackered and the returning players being undercooked.
Look at the teams we dropped a point to since having the league in our own hands with 7 games to play;

Manu - They're fucking shit
Palace -  They are in good form but we were at home
Everton - They're shit
West Ham - Are in dreadful form

We did well to challenge for the league given our injuries but what a missed opportunity

Offline abhred

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5112 on: May 12, 2024, 07:51:39 am »
The run-in is frustration. Because of the sea of injuries you had the replacement players being knackered and the returning players being undercooked.
Look at the teams we dropped a point to since having the league in our own hands with 7 games to play;

Manu - They're fucking shit
Palace -  They are in good form but we were at home
Everton - They're shit
West Ham - Are in dreadful form

We did well to challenge for the league given our injuries but what a missed opportunity


Absolutely. 3 wins in those 4 should have been expected and that would still put the title in our hands. Frustrating because in the first 2 of those games, we had enough chances to win.

Fine margins. Though I agree with Klopp that we haven’t really been the best team in the league.
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5113 on: May 12, 2024, 08:46:31 am »
The run-in is frustration. Because of the sea of injuries you had the replacement players being knackered and the returning players being undercooked.
Look at the teams we dropped a point to since having the league in our own hands with 7 games to play;

Manu - They're fucking shit
Palace -  They are in good form but we were at home
Everton - They're shit
West Ham - Are in dreadful form

We did well to challenge for the league given our injuries but what a missed opportunity

Eveton and West Ham games were scheduled really poorly for us, but they became irrelevant in the end after not winning the other two..

United game was ridiculous but we got the point at least. We had to win out after that, that was any margin for error gone. It was done after Palace and that whole game was a hangover from Atalanta. Nobody had the energy to have to dig deep yet again after giving a stupid early goal away and we proceeded to miss sitters.

Writing was on the wall after Sheffield United. Possibly the worst team i've seen at this level and we were shocking that night and took a wonder goal to get us out of bother then. Brighton wasn't convincing either, yet another early goal conceded and after getting it back to 2-1 it was panic stations last 15 minutes. We're awful at defending a lead, our only way of defending a lead is to score more goals and when we don't we get punished (like at Old Trafford x2).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2024, 08:52:29 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5114 on: May 12, 2024, 09:01:38 am »
If we want to truly challenge for the league till the final day of the season, more than tightening up the defence and being more clinical (both equally important) we have to get to the bottom of why we have so many injuries. Refreshing the fitness staff, more controlled football, less intense pre-season. Whatever it is we have to change something.

Also, going behind in over 20 games is going to take its toll mentally and physically because the game state is you are constantly chasing the game. Not sustainable.

Offline KC7

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5115 on: May 12, 2024, 11:39:37 am »
The run-in is frustration. Because of the sea of injuries you had the replacement players being knackered and the returning players being undercooked.
Look at the teams we dropped a point to since having the league in our own hands with 7 games to play;

Manu - They're fucking shit
Palace -  They are in good form but we were at home
Everton - They're shit
West Ham - Are in dreadful form

We did well to challenge for the league given our injuries but what a missed opportunity

I know its been talked about the players who returned not being up to speed nor making much impact, but I think in explaining what has happened over the past month goes beyond that. We have been teetering on the brink all season. The chickens came home to roost is what happened.

Maybe five games in total, all comps, where we have been comfortable? The Newcastle game, battered for 75 and overrun in midfield, they should have been out of sight but after upping the tempo and energy in personnel (Endo and Gakpo off, Nunez and Elliott on) we pinched that game late on. At Palace we were again outrun, and but for a soft red card we never looked like getting back into the game. Home to Fulham, behind 3-2 after 86 minutes, then won it with two late goals. Brilliant comebacks of course, but you don't want to be having to constantly go to the well, which we have done 23 times. Comebacks should be the exception not the rule.

Three of the four results before our downturn in results: last second winner at Forest (around 75 minutes they had a glorious chance to go 1-0 up themselves when it just went low past the post), 2-1 win home to Brighton (Lallana's shot to make it 2-2 a couple of yards past the post), and 3-1 home to Sheff U (Mac special to put us ahead with 15 to go). We hadn't been convincing at all. Credit to the players for getting through them though.

When we then entered the business end, when the pressure ramps up, that's when the cracks are exposed. That's when the solidity of a team really is tested. But this is a ropey outfit. The two games against a dreadful Man U, we conceded six. That big pitch at OT needs a very athletic midfield, but we left gaps galore, space a toothless attack could exploit. One hopeful looped ball over the top by Casimiro, no DM in sight, they were in. Slow, flaky, weak, exposed.

So the pressure being ramped up which exposed the cracks there all season is one reason for the downturn in results. The other, namely Atalanta, is the higher quality opposition the further you go in a competition. We were taken apart by them, with every weakness, lack of athleticism in midfield, the sloppiness in full backs (Tsimkas and Gomez), pounced on.

Less than 72 hours later the season effectively ended vs Palace who in the first half took full advantage of the lack of athleticism in midfield. The tempo and energy ramped up in the second half with Endo replaced but this late in the season with so much riding on every result the pressure got too much and we couldn't rescue yet another game. Had that been the 3rd game of the season there's every likelihood those players don't snatch at the chances we had.

Basically increased pressure, and a higher quality opponent, is what undid us. Jurgen would have needed another window to address the deficiency in athleticism in the team as we have been far too open in midfield where games are largely controlled. Have no doubt had he stayed he would have done so.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2024, 11:41:51 am by KC7 »

Offline spider-neil

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5116 on: May 12, 2024, 11:43:25 am »
I know its been talked about the players who returned not being up to speed nor making much impact, but I think in explaining what has happened over the past month goes beyond that. We have been teetering on the brink all season. The chickens came home to roost is what happened.

Maybe five games in total, all comps, where we have been comfortable? The Newcastle game, battered for 75 and overrun in midfield, they should have been out of sight but after upping the tempo and energy in personnel (Endo and Gakpo off, Nunez and Elliott on) we pinched that game late on. At Palace we were again outrun, and but for a soft red card we never looked like getting back into the game. Home to Fulham, behind 3-2 after 86 minutes, then won it with two late goals. Brilliant comebacks of course, but you don't want to be having to constantly go to the well, which we have done 23 times. Comebacks should be the exception not the rule.

Three of the four results before our downturn in results: last second winner at Forest (around 75 minutes they had a glorious chance to go 1-0 up themselves when it just went low past the post), 2-1 win home to Brighton (Lallana's shot to make it 2-2 a couple of yards past the post), and 3-1 home to Sheff U (Mac special to put us ahead with 15 to go). We hadn't been convincing at all. Credit to the players for betting through them though.

When we then entered the business end, when the pressure ramps up, that's when the cracks are exposed. That's when the solidity of a team really is tested. But this is a ropey outfit. The two games against a dreadful Man U, we conceded six. That big pitch at OT needs a very athletic midfield, but we left gaps galore, space a toothless attack could exploit. One hopeful looped ball over the top by Casimiro, no DM in sight, they were in. Slow, flaky, weak, exposed.

So the pressure being ramped up which exposed the cracks there all season is one reason for the downturn in results. The other, namely Atalanta, is the higher quality opposition the further you go in a competition. We were taken apart by them, with every weakness, lack of athleticism in midfield, the sloppiness in full backs (Tsimkas and Gomez), pounced on.

Less than 72 hours later the season effectively ended vs Palace who in the first half took full advantage of the lack of athleticism in midfield. The tempo and energy ramped up in the second half with Endo replaced but this late in the season with so much riding on every result the pressure got too much and we couldn't rescue yet another game. Had that been the 3rd game of the season there's every likelihood those players don't snatch at the chances we had.

Basically increased pressure, and a higher quality opponent, is what undid us. Jurgen would have needed another window to address the deficiency in athleticism in the team as we have been far too open in midfield where games are largely controlled. Have no doubt had he stayed he would have done so.

In an ideal world we would have had Jota fit for most of the season as I think he would have turned some of those draws into wins.
We brought back Dom, Salah, and Trent back too early. If we had brought them back later we would have had them for longer.
Brighton away also killed as as we lost Jones and Jota in the same game for over a month,
It was a perfect storm. Too often injures have derailed our season and we need to get to the bottom of why it keeps happening.

Offline LFCEmpire

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5117 on: May 12, 2024, 12:06:56 pm »

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #5118 on: May 12, 2024, 12:15:25 pm »
Mathematically out of the title race. 11th May.
Lord knows, kids like Henry need a hero. Courageous, self-sacrificing people. Setting examples for all of us. Everybody loves a hero. People line up for them, cheer them, scream their names. And years later, they'll tell how they stood in the rain for hours just to get a glimpse of the one who taught them how to hold on a second longer. I believe there's a hero in all of us, that keeps us honest, gives us strength, makes us noble, and finally allows us to die with pride, even though sometimes we have to be steady, and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams. - Aunt May , Spider Man 2

Offline BlondieChelle1983

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Where do you genuinely think we lost the league?
« Reply #5119 on: May 12, 2024, 10:28:50 pm »
I know it's all a bit redundant now, the league is done with, but where would you say it was lost? United fans will say they're responsible, as will Palace fans and perhaps most annoyingly, Everton fans. Personally I think the title was already a tall order before the derby even kicked off. Try telling that to Evertonians though.