Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[4pool]

On the PL Review show for the Palace match, they showed a stat.

Virgil had played his 100th League match for Liverpool.

We had won 76 of those. 76% win percentage with VVD in the line up.

We had lost 8, none at Anfield.

[Coolie High]

Cant wait for Gomez to get back to his best, in this system were currently using I think we need his pace.

[BigCDump]

Our defence/goalie has conceded 8 goals against Brentford, Brighton and West Ham. Almost none of those goals were 'undeserved' either. Yes the midfield takes some blame, but you don't win the league with this sort of record. All too Rodgers-esque. 

[clinical]

Our defence/goalie has conceded 8 goals against Brentford, Brighton and West Ham. Almost none of those goals were 'undeserved' either. Yes the midfield takes some blame, but you don't win the league with this sort of record. All too Rodgers-esque. 

We need to learn how to do tactical fouls better. A few of those goals don't happen if we start doing that.

[Lycan]

The defence is struggling because the midfield has had no control in many of the games we've played. The balance isn't right. We have been way too open and easy to play through. Sort the midfield balance out and our defending will improve.

Set-pieces are a different story though. What used to be a strength of ours has now become a weakness at both ends. Really don't know what's happened there like.

[clinical]

The defence is struggling because the midfield has had no control in many of the games we've played. The balance isn't right. We have been way too open and easy to play through. Sort the midfield balance out and our defending will improve.

Set-pieces are a different story though. What used to be a strength of ours has now become a weakness at both ends. Really don't know what's happened there like.

The midfield recently has been the best when it was Fabinho, Thiago and Harvey Elliott as the start of the season. Henderson for the main has been out of form. Keita sometimes good sometimes not.

[El Lobo]

The defence is struggling because the midfield has had no control in many of the games we've played. The balance isn't right. We have been way too open and easy to play through. Sort the midfield balance out and our defending will improve.

Set-pieces are a different story though. What used to be a strength of ours has now become a weakness at both ends. Really don't know what's happened there like.

I suspect its got a lot more to do with essentially having to forge old partnerships all over again, new ones with Konate and Tsimikas, and our CBs still in the process of getting fully up to speed and sharpness.

[Gerry Attrick]

For a few games our back 4 should be Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Konate and Tsimikas. They deserve to be playing more than anybody else right now so give them a chance to gain familiarity with each other.

[iamnant]

We need to learn how to do tactical fouls better. A few of those goals don't happen if we start doing that.

I still can't believe how their player was able to go all the way through our midfield and defence to set up their second goal yesterday. Man City have won leagues from fouling in those situations.

We really are too nice sometimes and yesterday let the ref sway the game to the home team without repost. We let their players bully our goalkeeper yesterday - surely at half time we should tell Van Dijk to go protect Alisson and block Antonio. That third goal from the corner had been coming and we did absolutely nothing about it.

[Lycan]

I suspect its got a lot more to do with essentially having to forge old partnerships all over again, new ones with Konate and Tsimikas, and our CBs still in the process of getting fully up to speed and sharpness.

That's part of it, but for me, the midfield has definitely been a major problem.

[El Lobo]

That's part of it, but for me, the midfield has definitely been a major problem.

Its a bit all over the place. I think its understandable. Last season we had no VVD, no Matip, no Gomez, no Konate, barely any Fabinho in DM, Hendo and Thiago missing chunks. Alisson, Trent and Robbo in particular are back playing with a completely different core to last season, its understandably going to take a while to get performance back to what it should be defensively.

[Funky_Gibbons]

That's part of it, but for me, the midfield has definitely been a major problem.

The outside central midfielders are pushing wide when we're in possession to make the pitch bigger. This is quite an agressive tactic but leaves us open to quick transitions, especially when Trent pushes into an inside right position.

You can see from the picture below how spread out our midfield is (this isn't the most extreme) and how easy that is to penetrate with a fast counter attack;



The first goal yesterday came from a corner won after Antonio occupied that vacant right back position and was able to run at VVD one on one. The 2nd goal was another counter attack right through our midfield and Antonio was also clean through on goal with another counter attack but fortunately miscontrolled at the vital moment.

[clinical]

City play with quite an open midfield. But as soon as a counter attack begins. Rodri, Gundogan, Fernandinho or whoever does a little foul. They end up with a few bookings rather than goals conceded.

[Fiasco]

For a few games our back 4 should be Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Konate and Tsimikas. They deserve to be playing more than anybody else right now so give them a chance to gain familiarity with each other.

The Robertson one confuses me, because you have one player in a position who is woefully out of form and another player in the same position who has done everything right to get a start, plays really well when called upon yet is still second choice. I understand Klopp's love and loyalty with players - and he publicly backed Robertson by calling him the best left back in the world recently - but when you play a player who is not on it in place of a player who is on it you really have to have them repay you and Robertson just isn't at the minute.

I agree with you, we should go with that back four for the foressable.

[Lycan]

The outside central midfielders are pushing wide when we're in possession to make the pitch bigger. This is quite an agressive tactic but leaves us open to quick transitions, especially when Trent pushes into an inside right position.

You can see from the picture below how spread out our midfield is (this isn't the most extreme) and how easy that is to penetrate with a fast counter attack;



The first goal yesterday came from a corner won after Antonio occupied that vacant right back position and was able to run at VVD one on one. The 2nd goal was another counter attack right through our midfield and Antonio was also clean through on goal with another counter attack but fortunately miscontrolled at the vital moment.

Certainly needs tweaking/sorting out

[Dave McCoy]

City play with quite an open midfield. But as soon as a counter attack begins. Rodri, Gundogan, Fernandinho or whoever does a little foul. They end up with a few bookings rather than goals conceded.

City play quite differently to us though.  They always keep one FB reserved with the 2 CB's to make a back 3, they then invert Cancelo and have Rodri holding so in essence it's 5 in defense whereas we're doing it with 4.  Tactical foul or no they have more cover.

[Red Bird]

City play quite differently to us though.  They always keep one FB reserved with the 2 CB's to make a back 3, they then invert Cancelo and have Rodri holding so in essence it's 5 in defense whereas we're doing it with 4.  Tactical foul or no they have more cover.

The other problem with Liverpool, as opposed to, say, City is how relatively poorly we deal with being pressed-- we don't generally look after the ball well. Yesterday, even a hint of press, led to some shockingly wayward passing sometimes to a player marked by two or three people. And given how "spaced out" we tend to be, we then find ourselves being waltzed through.

[RyanBabel19]

Wonder if Gomez will be introduced against some sides to add some recovery pace to the back line as we seem to be letting sides get in behind a tad more than usual. He's incredibly quick and a great defender too

[Medellin]

Stood tall under massive pressure & not forgotten.

[PoetryInMotion]

Stood tall under massive pressure & not forgotten.

No, no, no.

Ask Klopp to keep his Nat Phillips appreciation to himself. Else, Al will track him down to argue with him that Nat Phillips dragged us down last season.

[Jwils21]

Stood tall under massive pressure & not forgotten.

Jurgen demonstrating that it is actually possible to praise Nat Phillips without some sort of backhanded compliment.

“Wherever he goes next season he’s done well”
“Even though he’s not good enough for us and is in fact shite he did well today”
“Despite the fact he should be playing for MK Dons that was a decent 50 yard header to win us the title”

[Funky_Gibbons]

Stood tall under massive pressure & not forgotten.

That’s an amazing comment. What a man our manager is.

[Kashinoda]

These were the numbers before Burnley, so add about 8?

[Dave McCoy]

These were the numbers before Burnley, so add about 8?

Probably more for the Klopp template thread but I'm starting to think more and more that being that extreme isn't actually worth it. Though there's no way to really know for sure unless we saw how playing a bit more conservatively affected our attack.

[stockdam]

It’s getting boring how they bleat on about our high line on TV as if it’s a big weakness. Time after time they claim that the ball over the top is going to catch us out but usually the opposition get caught offside. The pundits then turn it into a “great chance” and even show the “chance” in their highlights as an example when we nearly conceded.

Yes once in a while we do get caught out but our defence are generally very fast at getting back plus we have a great keeper behind the defence. The pros are obvious in that we compress play into the opposition half and our centre halves provide an out ball for our midfield or attack.

[Sangria]

It’s getting boring how they bleat on about our high line on TV as if it’s a big weakness. Time after time they claim that the ball over the top is going to catch us out but usually the opposition get caught offside. The pundits then turn it into a “great chance” and even show the “chance” in their highlights as an example when we nearly conceded.

Yes once in a while we do get caught out but our defence are generally very fast at getting back plus we have a great keeper behind the defence. The pros are obvious in that we compress play into the opposition half and our centre halves provide an out ball for our midfield or attack.

At times, in the Leicester game, I thought of the Forest 5-0, where the ball came back relentlessly at the Forest defence. The Forest out ball was to Nigel Clough, who was in the centre circle accompanied by Hansen. Admittedly Clough was as lacking pace as any striker could be, but that's the line we traditionally keep.

[harleydanger]

These were the numbers before Burnley, so add about 8?

Add another 25% to the ones that aren’t called because our CB’s recover and win the ball.

[BassTunedToRed]

These were the numbers before Burnley, so add about 8?

I think it was pre-Leicester actually. We're now on 101, then City 61 and Brentford 51.

We currently average the most offsides and goalkeeper defensive actions outside the box per game of any team from 2017/18 onwards.

But we also allow a lot of through balls (and we allowed the most in 2020/21). All about risk vs. reward of course.

[stockdam]

I think it was pre-Leicester actually. We're now on 101, then City 61 and Brentford 51.

We currently average the most offsides and goalkeeper defensive actions outside the box per game of any team from 2017/18 onwards.

But we also allow a lot of through balls (and we allowed the most in 2020/21). All about risk vs. reward of course.

If an attacker does get behind our defence then they have Alisson to beat. Beating a keeper one-on-one isn't that easy and Alisson is one of the best at forcing the attacker wide. The worst scenario is when it's 2 v 1 but it is the job of our defence to get back quickly and prevent that.

The risk that we have to accept is the ball over the top but we have a great goalkeeper plus quick backs to minimise the risk. On the other hand, when we play a high line and push the other team back then we are faced with 9 or 10 defenders which makes it hard for us to score.

[Crosby Nick]

Is it only City and Wolves who have conceded fewer than us now? I’d expect that to probably just be City by the end of the season the weird control freaks. So what we do obviously works and on the few occasions it doesn’t we can call upon the best keeper in the league in terms of dealing with 1v1s.

[sinnermichael]

Is it only City and Wolves who have conceded fewer than us now? I’d expect that to probably just be City by the end of the season the weird control freaks. So what we do obviously works and on the few occasions it doesn’t we can call upon the best keeper in the league in terms of dealing with 1v1s.

Wolves have scored 21 and conceded 17 in 23 games which is wild. Chelsea have also conceded one less than us.

[BassTunedToRed]

Wolves have scored 21 and conceded 17 in 23 games which is wild. Chelsea have also conceded one less than us.

Wolves' matches currently average just 1.65 goals - since the Premier League went down to 20 teams in 1996, the lowest is George Graham's Leeds in 1996/97 with 1.74.

Only four other sides in the last quarter of a century have averaged below two, and none of that quartet lower than 1.92.

[oojason]

^ from https://old.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/st3g9s/liverpool_defenders_are_the_best_offside_catchers/

[Dave McCoy]

4th in goals allowed
3rd in non-penalty xG allowed
2nd in shots allowed
2nd in shots on target allowed
Tied for worst xG per shot in the league with Southampton and Watford but we have the 2nd biggest xG allowed vs. goals allowed variance that masks this. Between Allison and our opponents bad luck/finishing we're currently 6 goals to the good.

I just don't think being so extreme in playing the offside is giving us any huge edge in comparison to our opponents. I also think in away games it feeds into the crowd as it gives a sense that their team is getting at us even if they really aren't and can make for a more difficult atmosphere and team response than maybe otherwise would happen.

Again it's impossible to know one way or another but at least for me I think we could do with being a bit more conservative at times.

[Kashinoda]

Interesting article here on us purposely not blocking long range shots and playing percentages:
https://medium.com/@chris.summersell/are-liverpool-breaking-a-sacred-defensive-code-8c5f806a4c41

[Caston]

Anyone got the stats for conceding the first goal and our clean sheets?

We’ve had a tough start fixture wise but I feel like we have issues at the back which have been going on a while now.

[killer-heels]

Anyone got the stats for conceding the first goal and our clean sheets?

We’ve had a tough start fixture wise but I feel like we have issues at the back which have been going on a while now.

We are 5th in terms of xG conceded. Clearly have improved in that aspect.

[Haggis36]

Anyone got the stats for conceding the first goal and our clean sheets?

We’ve had a tough start fixture wise but I feel like we have issues at the back which have been going on a while now.

So far this season we've conceded first in 7 of our 11 games (64%, so nearly 2/3rds), and have managed only two clean sheets (against Villa and USG at home). We're conceding precisely 1 goal per game on average.

Last season isn't actually as bad as I thought it was - we conceded first in 21 of our 52 games in all competitions (40%). We did however concede lots of very early goals - 7 times in the Premier League last year we conceded within the opening 10 minutes, and in 9 games we'd conceded within the first 20 (sometimes more than once). We only managed 14 clean sheets in the league (19 from 52 in all competitions), and conceded 1.3 goals per game.

As KH notes, our XGA was 5th best in the league but it won't be after today (could be as low as 10/11th) and it hasn't actually improved that much - in the PL it was 1.34 per game last year, and was 1.31 this season but that was before today's game (where we conceded nearly 2XGA, so probably actually higher than last season now). There's a big gap between us and the likes of City and even Arsenal though - they're currently on track to concede about 27 goals and 31 goals respectively (vs 52 for us if we continue at the current rate). Which is probably why we're likely to be competing for top four, not a title.

[killer-heels]

So far this season we've conceded first in 7 of our 11 games (64%, so nearly 2/3rds), and have managed only two clean sheets (against Villa and USG at home). We're conceding precisely 1 goal per game on average.

Last season isn't actually as bad as I thought it was - we conceded first in 21 of our 52 games in all competitions (40%). We did however concede lots of very early goals - 7 times in the Premier League last year we conceded within the opening 10 minutes, and in 9 games we'd conceded within the first 20 (sometimes more than once). We only managed 14 clean sheets in the league (19 from 52 in all competitions), and conceded 1.3 goals per game.

As KH notes, our XGA was 5th best in the league but it won't be after today (could be as low as 10/11th) and it hasn't actually improved that much - in the PL it was 1.34 per game last year, and was 1.31 this season but that was before today's game (where we conceded nearly 2XGA, so probably actually higher than last season now). There's a big gap between us and the likes of City and even Arsenal though - they're currently on track to concede about 27 goals and 31 goals respectively (vs 52 for us if we continue at the current rate). Which is probably why we're likely to be competing for top four, not a title.

To be fair though we have had the majority away games and factor in the difficult fixtures and the issues with red cards. I’d bet good money our xG against was higher in a lot of the equivalent games.

[Haggis36]

To be fair though we have had the majority away games and factor in the difficult fixtures and the issues with red cards. I’d bet good money our xG against was higher in a lot of the equivalent games.

A very fair point - if you isolate the games where we had 11 men, and compare against last season (in the PL at least):-

Chelsea (A): 2.2 -> 1.4
Villa (H): 1.3 -> 0.7
Wolves (A): 2.0 -> 0.6
West Ham (H): 1.7 -> 1.1
Brighton (A): 1.9 ->... 1.9

(Farcical that we've had red cards in nearly half of our PL games this season).

So yes, some marked improvements, but I don't know if that's necessarily telling us much - the reverse fixtures for some of these (Wolves and Brighton in particular) were among the worst performances we've put in under Klopp and that's still an average of over 1.0 XGA per game this season with 11 men, which is too high.