Topic: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell

[JackWard33]

Fair enough he can cross and shoot on occasion but he may as well not be able to given his levels of inconsistency at a club like Liverpool Football Club. The occasional good performance is not relevant. Good players are consistent players. You can have all the talent in the world but if you only display it once every ten games what's the point?

He hasn't been playing so I'm not sure how you're judging this.
The writing off of him as an effective attacking player is symptomatic of people's inflated expectations of what its possible to produce from full back. He puts up really good underlying numbers and he constantly causes problems for defences with his movement and pace (relative to a lot of other full backs)
Anyway... pointless discussion as he won't be playing for us next year - but its not a surprise to me that teams like Sevilla and Napoli have made enquiries this summer. He'll do a decent job for someone - just won't be us

[mallin9]

He'll do a decent job for someone - just won't be us

Aye, just as long as the other team doesn't have the ball.  All due respect to Al but his decision making in defense made Aly Cissokho look like Gary Kasparov

[Vote For Pedro]

His trevails in our system show how good Milner has been to have adapated and thrived at left back (depsite giving the ball away more than we'd like in several matches last season). Good luck to him, seems like a nice lad who will very likely land himself a good move that will suit all parties.

[nico 8]

He can't cross or shoot - I don't know where this idea that he's an effective attacking player running from deep comes from. Clyne's attacking output can be inconsistent as well but nowhere near as much as Moreno's. The latter's end product is very rarely good.

Clyne's attacking hasn't been inconsistent. For the most part, it has been extremely poor.  So much so that he lost his berth as a starter for England. He may have been overplayed but he was culpable for goals conceded in his our first 2 games against Arsenal and Burnley. He had a below par season by his standards and has a big season ahead of him.  He has been let off for some reason as most have preferred to use Moreno as a scapegoat initially and when he didn't play, Can, Lucas and Wijnaldum took turns as being the scapegoat. Milner was below par for the run in.
Our LB and RB positions, require addressing. Obviously, LB being more pressing and urgent and RB requiring more competition. Not sure whether TAA is sufficiently ready to push Clyne.

[RedForeverTT]

A 31 yo Milner starting 37 games compared to Moreno's 2 tells you the whole story. He just wasn't trusted to do that job.

I think maybe left-back just wasn't his natural position as he started his career as a left-winger. Perhaps a wing-back role next season could see better from him.

[jooneyisdagod]

Think people slip into binary caricature when talking about him ("he's shit" "he's a liability" basically) when he's actually a really effective attacking player running from deep.
Couldn't understand why we didn't use him more in the second half of the season when Milner struggled with the ball more than people on here admit and when we were facing teams that didn't want to attack and certainly weren't committing their own full backs forward
However the fact that we didn't use him almost certainly means he won't be here next year.

Yeah, that's the killer isn't it? TAA was preferred to him at times, which doesn't say much for his future prospects. But who knows what happens if he ends up staying if we don't get a suitable bid given we have European football and he's one of the few players in the squad with some success at that level. He does have the raw talent, but it's the application that has been lacking hugely. And given Milner's showings towards the end of the season, I think there's a very good chance Milner might drop out of the starting XI or end up elsewhere on the pitch in a reshuffle, opening up a spot for a new LB/maybe Moreno himself.

[Fiasco]

Yeah, that's the killer isn't it? TAA was preferred to him at times, which doesn't say much for his future prospects. But who knows what happens if he ends up staying if we don't get a suitable bid given we have European football and he's one of the few players in the squad with some success at that level. He does have the raw talent, but it's the application that has been lacking hugely. And given Milner's showings towards the end of the season, I think there's a very good chance Milner might drop out of the starting XI or end up elsewhere on the pitch in a reshuffle, opening up a spot for a new LB/maybe Moreno himself.

I believe that Klopp wanted Milner in the team but didn't see him as part of a midfield trio, so given his versatility and professionalism a stint at left back came about. I don't mean that in a sense of Milner is Klopp's pet and he just had to have him in the team, but I think a wily old fox like Milner with all his experience and hard graft was something Klopp felt the team needed and he adjusted accordingly. Of course Moreno's lack of awareness and poor decision-making made the decision easier for Klopp.

I don't want to see Milner continue at left back, the novelty wore off towards the end of the season and we had very little threat down the left hand side. Milner himself looked exhausted. We're in the market for a left back and should we buy one I'd be all for Moreno being second choice, but that would perhaps relegate Milner to the role of being an ultimate squad player, being able to fill in in a number of positions but I'm not sure he'd settle for that at this stage of his career.

Moreno has the raw tools to succeed but I don't think he's got much of a career here, but that might depend on who we do or don't sign for his position. Should we not sign anybody then it'll be a straight fight between him and Milner in pre-season for the left back spot, but with so many games potentially being played next season he'll have his chance to earn his spot. I do think his goose is cooked here though, which is unfortunate because I like the lad and it's not as if he doesn't try.

[Purple Red]

He hasn't been playing so I'm not sure how you're judging this.
The writing off of him as an effective attacking player is symptomatic of people's inflated expectations of what its possible to produce from full back. He puts up really good underlying numbers and he constantly causes problems for defences with his movement and pace (relative to a lot of other full backs)
Anyway... pointless discussion as he won't be playing for us next year - but its not a surprise to me that teams like Sevilla and Napoli have made enquiries this summer. He'll do a decent job for someone - just won't be us

What are these numbers? There's kind of a contradiction in your post about not making judgements because he hasn't been playing and then saying he constantly causes problems with his movement and pace.

[McrRed]

Genuine question: what is the evidence for Moreno's bad decision making?

I know it's a universal given but I don't know what people are referring to.

I can see a couple of things from last season (15/16) but no more than anyone else.

I remember when Klopp was first challenged about why he picks Moreno and he was genuinely startled. But since then, Milner's been lb and Albie's hardly figured.

Putting your hands behind your back doesn't count for me as that's a judgement call made in hindsight. Other players make mistakes all the time but are ignored or forgiven. But I think I might be missing something too obvious.

So, genuine question.

[Gerry Attrick]

Genuine question: what is the evidence for Moreno's bad decision making?

I know it's a universal given but I don't know what people are referring to.

I can see a couple of things from last season (15/16) but no more than anyone else.

I remember when Klopp was first challenged about why he picks Moreno and he was genuinely startled. But since then, Milner's been lb and Albie's hardly figured.

Putting your hands behind your back doesn't count for me as that's a judgement call made in hindsight. Other players make mistakes all the time but are ignored or forgiven. But I think I might be missing something too obvious.

So, genuine question.

See Europa League final and the away game at Arsenal last season.

[Purple Red]

Genuine question: what is the evidence for Moreno's bad decision making?

I know it's a universal given but I don't know what people are referring to.

I can see a couple of things from last season (15/16) but no more than anyone else.

I remember when Klopp was first challenged about why he picks Moreno and he was genuinely startled. But since then, Milner's been lb and Albie's hardly figured.

Putting your hands behind your back doesn't count for me as that's a judgement call made in hindsight. Other players make mistakes all the time but are ignored or forgiven. But I think I might be missing something too obvious.

So, genuine question.

Have you ever watched him play? Aside from the high profile games mentioned by Gerry above, his appearances for Liverpool have been littered with bad decision making. Moreno frequently flies into tackles and either misses the ball or risks being disciplined. He is frequently out of position. He sometimes shoots whne there is a pass on, or makes the wrong pass full stop. All players are guilty of these things from time to time of course but in his time here Moreno does these type of things quite a lot.

[kasperoff]

Genuine question: what is the evidence for Moreno's bad decision making?

I know it's a universal given but I don't know what people are referring to.

I can see a couple of things from last season (15/16) but no more than anyone else.

I remember when Klopp was first challenged about why he picks Moreno and he was genuinely startled. But since then, Milner's been lb and Albie's hardly figured.

Putting your hands behind your back doesn't count for me as that's a judgement call made in hindsight. Other players make mistakes all the time but are ignored or forgiven. But I think I might be missing something too obvious.

So, genuine question.

Did you see the EL final? One of the worst personal performances I've seen.

His lack of height is a problem too. I know we have other small players in the team. But if you're offering nothing on the physical side, then you better be pretty fecking sharp everywhere else. Alberto isn't. Seems a popular lad in the squad, but his time is up.

[Garnier]

Genuine question: what is the evidence for Moreno's bad decision making?
...

I will never forget when he had to take Steven Naismith down twice inside the box, just to be safe that the ref wouldn't get it wrong. If i wasn't fuming i'd be crying of laughter.

[McrRed]

I will never forget when he had to take Steven Naismith down twice inside the box, just to be safe that the ref wouldn't get it wrong. If i wasn't fuming i'd be crying of laughter.

That's more what I'm after specific instances. They're the ones I'm thinking of. And he's not the only one that goes to pieces in our box. As we've seen it's a real systemic issue for us...but that has been without Moreno in the team. Our handling of pressure, marking, tackling and second and third balls in our own area has been atrocious. The whole team have been guilty of that.

But beyond that loads of generalisations. City where he mistimed it (first game in the prem) and the instance quoted. I know I'm a lone voice but the EL final loss wasn't on Moreno for me. It was a team capitulation and nearly everyone played their part.

And we do loads of forgetting what he does well. Best recovery tackler in the business... he's saved our bacon a few times.

As I said, it's a genuine question and in a thread about Alberto I'm after thoughts from the open minded because I want to learn... simplistic "because" answers don't help (for instance I could tell you why/where/how Clyne wasn't good at defending - if it were his thread - because I can see what he does wrong).

[Alecs left foot]

The Express is saying that Swansea wants him. 13M. Mentioned.
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/820898/Liverpool-Swansea-bid-13m-Alberto-Moreno-Napoli-Southampton-Jurgen-Klopp-Transfer-News

[DanA]

That's more what I'm after specific instances. They're the ones I'm thinking of. And he's not the only one that goes to pieces in our box. As we've seen it's a real systemic issue for us...but that has been without Moreno in the team. Our handling of pressure, marking, tackling and second and third balls in our own area has been atrocious. The whole team have been guilty of that.

But beyond that loads of generalisations. City where he mistimed it (first game in the prem) and the instance quoted. I know I'm a lone voice but the EL final loss wasn't on Moreno for me. It was a team capitulation and nearly everyone played their part.

And we do loads of forgetting what he does well. Best recovery tackler in the business... he's saved our bacon a few times.

As I said, it's a genuine question and in a thread about Alberto I'm after thoughts from the open minded because I want to learn... simplistic "because" answers don't help (for instance I could tell you why/where/how Clyne wasn't good at defending - if it were his thread - because I can see what he does wrong).

Specific instances requires going back and making sure his mistakes were against the team you remember and happened how you remember and most of it was more than a year ago given he didn't play much this season.

My feeling is he's definitely been caught out positionally. I think Lovren at times has added to that leaving him too isolated but I'm not sure about specific incidents.

Off the top of my head.

Man City - Aguero goal 30 seconds after getting subbed on. I forget the specifics but somebody fucked up positionally there, probably Moreno.

I remember in Moreno's first month he had some horror shows in the box. One where a high ball was coming down and he failed to clear but I think there was 2-3 incidents in and around that one.

There's a couple where he was bombing forward and was tackled and laid there appealing for free feigning injury, that's a pet peeve I have with all footballers though.

[PoetryInMotion]

My feeling is he's definitely been caught out positionally. I think Lovren at times has added to that leaving him too isolated but I'm not sure about specific incidents.

For me it's the otherway around. Moreno has definitely been one of the reasons why Lovren got isolated so many times in his first season. Lovren had to move wide and defend pacy players, which is not his strongest forte and that made him look worse than he was, especially for the majority of times under Brendan. Since Moreno has been out of the team, it is evident that Lovren's mistakes have reduced and we looked a solid outfit whenever the back four of Clyne, Matip, Lovren and Milner has played.

[Chalky Boots]

See Europa League final and the away game at Arsenal last season.

Also the game against United a couple of years ago where Mata was constantly exploiting the area left by him.

[Andy]

The Express is saying that Swansea wants him. 13M. Mentioned.
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/820898/Liverpool-Swansea-bid-13m-Alberto-Moreno-Napoli-Southampton-Jurgen-Klopp-Transfer-News

Southampton mentioned too. I thought I saw him in Blackpool...

[Andy @ Allerton!]

See Europa League final and the away game at Arsenal last season.

You can say that about any player. Look at Gerrard v Chelsea at home. v Arsenal away passing back (Twice) etc..

Every player can have lapses of concentration and perform monumental fuck ups. Part of the game.

[Thats So Dimitar]

That's more what I'm after specific instances. They're the ones I'm thinking of. And he's not the only one that goes to pieces in our box. As we've seen it's a real systemic issue for us...but that has been without Moreno in the team. Our handling of pressure, marking, tackling and second and third balls in our own area has been atrocious. The whole team have been guilty of that.

But beyond that loads of generalisations. City where he mistimed it (first game in the prem) and the instance quoted. I know I'm a lone voice but the EL final loss wasn't on Moreno for me. It was a team capitulation and nearly everyone played their part.

And we do loads of forgetting what he does well. Best recovery tackler in the business... he's saved our bacon a few times.

As I said, it's a genuine question and in a thread about Alberto I'm after thoughts from the open minded because I want to learn... simplistic "because" answers don't help (for instance I could tell you why/where/how Clyne wasn't good at defending - if it were his thread - because I can see what he does wrong).

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/7-times-alberto-moreno-lost-his-head-and-forgot-how-defend - some great examples here, bit old so not all the visual examples are still working

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO4QNnscqA0 - loses his player for both goals, without even the excuse for having multiple players near him so getting caught in two minds etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZL-ePP6VbY - Again against Man Utd, truly some of the worst defending I've seen for their first goal, basically three players around Valencia right out on the wing, Moreno gets megged and he slowly jogs... I'm not sure exactly where he is planning to go as Valencia goes to the by-line and crosses for an easy Rooney finish. Second goal probably not exactly his fault as Mata was offside, however Moreno could easily have marked him, he even looks out and sees no-one, then just watches Mata walk up to the cross and head in.

I don't have any more as I don't watch Liverpool that often. But I always seem to remember him playing bad against Man Utd which surely does not help as a Liverpool player.

Edit: In saying this, you could make videos and posts like this about Danny Rose before the last couple of seasons working under Pochettino. He was truly awful, Spurs fans were praying he would be sold for absolutely any amount, but the coaching was right and he turned his career around. Is there a reason the same could not happen to Moreno with the right coaching? And this is not to try cast aspersions on Klopp's coaching ability, he is a fantastic coach and I think he should be able to do more with Moreno because of that.

[Alf]

If we get £15 million for Alberto Moreno it will be our best bit of business since we sold Ibe.

[heylookitsjacob]

but that would perhaps relegate Milner to the role of being an ultimate squad player, being able to fill in in a number of positions but I'm not sure he'd settle for that at this stage of his career.

Considering he left City for that exact reason, I'm not sure why he would stay. Think he'll go to somebody like West Ham as a center midfielder in the starting XI. How long is his current contract with us?

[McrRed]

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/7-times-alberto-moreno-lost-his-head-and-forgot-how-defend - some great examples here, bit old so not all the visual examples are still working

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO4QNnscqA0 - loses his player for both goals, without even the excuse for having multiple players near him so getting caught in two minds etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZL-ePP6VbY - Again against Man Utd, truly some of the worst defending I've seen for their first goal, basically three players around Valencia right out on the wing, Moreno gets megged and he slowly jogs... I'm not sure exactly where he is planning to go as Valencia goes to the by-line and crosses for an easy Rooney finish. Second goal probably not exactly his fault as Mata was offside, however Moreno could easily have marked him, he even looks out and sees no-one, then just watches Mata walk up to the cross and head in.

I don't have any more as I don't watch Liverpool that often. But I always seem to remember him playing bad against Man Utd which surely does not help as a Liverpool player.

Edit: In saying this, you could make videos and posts like this about Danny Rose before the last couple of seasons working under Pochettino. He was truly awful, Spurs fans were praying he would be sold for absolutely any amount, but the coaching was right and he turned his career around. Is there a reason the same could not happen to Moreno with the right coaching? And this is not to try cast aspersions on Klopp's coaching ability, he is a fantastic coach and I think he should be able to do more with Moreno because of that.

Thanks for that though it's never nice seeing united score [emoji14]
Goes to prove my point slightly - Moreno is partially culpable (depending on what instructions he had (the thing he did most was get caught upfield - but that might have been a management instruction - we're not privy to that information)) and the nutmeg was joe Allen. Against West ham he was fouled and our own fan says he's twatting around feigning injury.

Anyway, given the title of the thread I thought I'd try and get my point of view across. I don't feel too defensive over it, just feel he's been harshly criticised and labelled sometimes.

Question: would you rather get £18 million for him or him come good and turn into the player we hoped for off Sevilla?

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

People forget when we beat Chelsea 3-1 under Klopp, Ramires scored a goal from a header in which Moreno never attacked the ball, just waiting for it to drop and for him to turn and run with it, completely unaware of Ramires' presence behind him.

He has no positional awareness whatsoever, rash, always makes the wrong decision. If he goes to a team in the lower half of the EPL, I would not be surprised to see them relegated or see him moved to a wing position.

[Xanderzone]

That a 31 year old midfielder was trusted at LB ahead of him all of last season tells you what Klopp thinks of the guy.

The poster who said he probably started off as a winger is probably correct. His positional play and general understanding of defending is so bad that I refuse to believe he's been a defender his whole career.

It was a signing that looks the result of bad scouting. How was that defensive weakness never spotted?

[Zeb]

He was a winger as a youth player. He was moved further back and did well having more space in front of him. That's what we were signing - an aggressive, attacking full back. He was also obviously still very raw (1 1/2 years in Sevilla's first team, and not much end product for all the running) but then Rodgers was all about coaching young players. Funnily enough, the diving in was the exception rather than the rule when he was at Sevilla. Not that it didn't happen, but it wasn't how he normally defended.

[Modroxter]

People forget when we beat Chelsea 3-1 under Klopp, Ramires scored a goal from a header in which Moreno never attacked the ball, just waiting for it to drop and for him to turn and run with it, completely unaware of Ramires' presence behind him.

He has no positional awareness whatsoever, rash, always makes the wrong decision. If he goes to a team in the lower half of the EPL, I would not be surprised to see them relegated or see him moved to a wing position.

I agree there has been too many times that he has been the main culprit in our woeful defending and that was from couple of seasons ago and would be caught out too many times and he has unfortunately not learned from his mistakes. Swap him to celtic and get Tierney

[wige]

If we manage to get £15m for Moreno, I'm not going to complain if he's sold. As others have pointed out, and there are numerous examples, his all round defensive awareness is poor. It's cost us goals, results and trophies. Added to this, he genuinely does seem to be the first human to function without a brain.

But.

IF, and it's a huge IF - hence why I'd accept £15m and get a replacement, Klopp can bring his defensive skills up to, lets say top 6 standard AND he matures mentally, he'd be a hell of player. Why? Well, physical attributes aren't really something that can be trained and Moreno is absolutely lightning and seems to have an incredible engine. I genuinely think we'd have a brilliant fullback on our hands IF that could be achieved.

In retort to the the "Klopp played a 31 yr old midfielder ahead of him so it's clear he doesn't rate him" argument, I say - correct, but, Klopp was careful to praise him directly for his efforts in training, and I'm sure if Moreno was able to improve his weaknesses, and deliver on the pitch, then Klopp would be open to re-appraising him. To protect myself, I'll be clear, I don't think this will happen, I think his mentality and apparent immaturity will prevent any significant improvement. That said, the inability of football fans to display patience with regards development of players and an understanding that the below standard player currently on display cannot become of the required standard (especially when said footballer has just turned 24) is frustrating. It seems to be more common in this age of just buy someone. Personally, at 24, I was an immature fool. It took a few more years to grow up, focus and make the best of my talents. Maybe this will be the case with Moreno. Who knows. I do accept and agree that if Klopp/LFC don't think it's happening soon, then it would be best for him to grow up on someone else's time/dime.

[Caligula?]

If we manage to get £15m for Moreno, I'm not going to complain if he's sold. As others have pointed out, and there are numerous examples, his all round defensive awareness is poor. It's cost us goals, results and trophies. Added to this, he genuinely does seem to be the first human to function without a brain.

But.

IF, and it's a huge IF - hence why I'd accept £15m and get a replacement, Klopp can bring his defensive skills up to, lets say top 6 standard AND he matures mentally, he'd be a hell of player. Why? Well, physical attributes aren't really something that can be trained and Moreno is absolutely lightning and seems to have an incredible engine. I genuinely think we'd have a brilliant fullback on our hands IF that could be achieved.

In retort to the the "Klopp played a 31 yr old midfielder ahead of him so it's clear he doesn't rate him" argument, I say - correct, but, Klopp was careful to praise him directly for his efforts in training, and I'm sure if Moreno was able to improve his weaknesses, and deliver on the pitch, then Klopp would be open to re-appraising him. To protect myself, I'll be clear, I don't think this will happen, I think his mentality and apparent immaturity will prevent any significant improvement. That said, the inability of football fans to display patience with regards development of players and an understanding that the below standard player currently on display cannot become of the required standard (especially when said footballer has just turned 24) is frustrating. It seems to be more common in this age of just buy someone. Personally, at 24, I was an immature fool. It took a few more years to grow up, focus and make the best of my talents. Maybe this will be the case with Moreno. Who knows. I do accept and agree that if Klopp/LFC don't think it's happening soon, then it would be best for him to grow up on someone else's time/dime.

Klopp is a football manager, not a magician. He's not going to sprinkle fairy dust on Moreno and turn him into Roberto Carlos. 24 may be young, but it's not that young in football. If he's below standard for us now after being on the books for 3 years, chances are he's going to always be below standard. Yes, he might improve certain aspects of his game in time but we sure as hell shouldn't wait a few more years for someone to grow up, mature, or hope that Klopp somehow magically turns around.

[Miltonred]

If we manage to get £15m for Moreno, I'm not going to complain if he's sold. As others have pointed out, and there are numerous examples, his all round defensive awareness is poor. It's cost us goals, results and trophies. Added to this, he genuinely does seem to be the first human to function without a brain.

But.

IF, and it's a huge IF - hence why I'd accept £15m and get a replacement, Klopp can bring his defensive skills up to, lets say top 6 standard AND he matures mentally, he'd be a hell of player. Why? Well, physical attributes aren't really something that can be trained and Moreno is absolutely lightning and seems to have an incredible engine. I genuinely think we'd have a brilliant fullback on our hands IF that could be achieved.

In retort to the the "Klopp played a 31 yr old midfielder ahead of him so it's clear he doesn't rate him" argument, I say - correct, but, Klopp was careful to praise him directly for his efforts in training, and I'm sure if Moreno was able to improve his weaknesses, and deliver on the pitch, then Klopp would be open to re-appraising him. To protect myself, I'll be clear, I don't think this will happen, I think his mentality and apparent immaturity will prevent any significant improvement. That said, the inability of football fans to display patience with regards development of players and an understanding that the below standard player currently on display cannot become of the required standard (especially when said footballer has just turned 24) is frustrating. It seems to be more common in this age of just buy someone. Personally, at 24, I was an immature fool. It took a few more years to grow up, focus and make the best of my talents. Maybe this will be the case with Moreno. Who knows. I do accept and agree that if Klopp/LFC don't think it's happening soon, then it would be best for him to grow up on someone else's time/dime.

If my aunty had a set of wedding tackle she'd be my uncle.

Moreno is what he is, and if someone shell's put any eight figure sum for him now, that tells you just how mad the money side of the game has got.

[RedForeverTT]

I think it still boils down to money. We can't get a better upgrade for no less than £15m so the club probably said , screw it, it will cost us too much to sell with minimal upgrade.

It wasn't just his defensive game. Offensively he was limited too. When was the last time he put a useful cross in? With the way we play our game, we can't expect him to cut in because the space was taken up by Coutinho.

[wige]

I think it still boils down to money. We can't get a better upgrade for no less than £15m so the club probably said , screw it, it will cost us too much to sell with minimal upgrade.

It wasn't just his defensive game. Offensively he was limited too. When was the last time he put a useful cross in? With the way we play our game, we can't expect him to cut in because the space was taken up by Coutinho.

Yeah, his attacking contribution is another fair criticism, but personally I think it's another manifestation of his immaturity and/or stupidity. I can think of loads of situations where he gets into advanced positions, but doesn't have the composure or awareness to pause and either recycle the ball or deliver the right type of ball into an area. It seems like his plan is finished once he gets into position, then he has a brain fart and just chucks a cross in or blams it in hard.

Like in my post above, maybe he can mature. Suspect that Klopp is happy to get rid now though if the right type of replacement is available

[BabuYagu]

Yeah, his attacking contribution is another fair criticism, but personally I think it's another manifestation of his immaturity and/or stupidity. I can think of loads of situations where he gets into advanced positions, but doesn't have the composure or awareness to pause and either recycle the ball or deliver the right type of ball into an area. It seems like his plan is finished once he gets into position, then he has a brain fart and just chucks a cross in or blams it in hard.

Like in my post above, maybe he can mature. Suspect that Klopp is happy to get rid now though if the right type of replacement is available

I really do think people have hugely inflated expectations on full backs here.

Moreno was shite defensively but his numbers crushed everyone else in the league from open play in terms of assists, chances created, dribbles, shots etc. Could it be better? Sure, everybody could. But we aren´t going to sign a player who had better attacking and defensive numbers than Moreno because I don´t think there is anybody.

Likewise I saw the same in comparisons between Walker and Clyne yesterday. According to the Mark I eyeball opinion on Walker, he is far better attacking, better defensively, makes less mistakes, gives the ball away less etc. The numbers when  you look at them say the exact opposite. Clyne is superior across the board except in terms of dribbling. That isn´t necessarily a positive though for Walker as he is attempting a lot more dribbles and losing the ball a lot more than Clyne. If Clyne wants to leave the dribbling to Salah, Mane, Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana and (hopefully) Keita... then we will all the better for it.

My only explanation for these things is that we watch about 4500 minutes of Liverpool every year, much more if you include friendlies and european matches. We probably only watch a small fraction of that for anybody else. Then either we catch a handful of good games from a player or rely on highlight reels to form an opinion. I had a similar thing with Cavani but in reverse. I knew he was a good player, his numbers were obscene. Yet everytime I watched him at Palermo, then Napoli, then PSG he was anonymous. It would have been easy for me to believe he was shite, I had seen no evidence that he wasn´t and we base our opinions mostly on the evidence we have and then it becomes VERY hard to accept anything that contradicts that... because we KNOW our opinion is correct. We saw it first hand. To doubt it would cause us mental anxiety.

I know people hate stats, however they are useful in filling in those knowledge gaps we all have and are good at supporting (or destroying) ideas we have. We don´t watch every minute of every game, everywhere. We do watch for Liverpool though. This gives us an unbalanced amount of data to base opinions on. Whereas stats have no confirmation bias, pre-conceived opinions or gaps in knowledge to form opinions from.

An idea, opinion or theory is only as strong as the evidence supporting it. There is zero evidence to support the idea that Moreno is a poor attacker. There IS evidence that specifically states the opposite. The same with Clyne.

[McrRed]

I really do think people have hugely inflated expectations on full backs here.

Moreno was shite defensively but his numbers crushed everyone else in the league from open play in terms of assists, chances created, dribbles, shots etc. Could it be better? Sure, everybody could. But we aren´t going to sign a player who had better attacking and defensive numbers than Moreno because I don´t think there is anybody.

Likewise I saw the same in comparisons between Walker and Clyne yesterday. According to the Mark I eyeball opinion on Walker, he is far better attacking, better defensively, makes less mistakes, gives the ball away less etc. The numbers when  you look at them say the exact opposite. Clyne is superior across the board except in terms of dribbling. That isn´t necessarily a positive though for Walker as he is attempting a lot more dribbles and losing the ball a lot more than Clyne. If Clyne wants to leave the dribbling to Salah, Mane, Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana and (hopefully) Keita... then we will all the better for it.

My only explanation for these things is that we watch about 4500 minutes of Liverpool every year, much more if you include friendlies and european matches. We probably only watch a small fraction of that for anybody else. Then either we catch a handful of good games from a player or rely on highlight reels to form an opinion. I had a similar thing with Cavani but in reverse. I knew he was a good player, his numbers were obscene. Yet everytime I watched him at Palermo, then Napoli, then PSG he was anonymous. It would have been easy for me to believe he was shite, I had seen no evidence that he wasn´t and we base our opinions mostly on the evidence we have and then it becomes VERY hard to accept anything that contradicts that... because we KNOW our opinion is correct. We saw it first hand. To doubt it would cause us mental anxiety.

I know people hate stats, however they are useful in filling in those knowledge gaps we all have and are good at supporting (or destroying) ideas we have. We don´t watch every minute of every game, everywhere. We do watch for Liverpool though. This gives us an unbalanced amount of data to base opinions on. Whereas stats have no confirmation bias, pre-conceived opinions or gaps in knowledge to form opinions from.

An idea, opinion or theory is only as strong as the evidence supporting it. There is zero evidence to support the idea that Moreno is a poor attacker. There IS evidence that specifically states the opposite. The same with Clyne.

Breath of fresh air, that, Babu.

I've not seen it yet but I'd be very interested in mistakes and mistakes leading to goals conceded for our midfield and backline.

As far as I'm concerned, Moreno is no better or worse than everyone else and just as capable at the potential for improvement.
Clyne and Lovren can't track a ball in flight to save their lives. Moreno isn't good at blocking crosses. Both are liabilities. Which one affects us the most is up for grabs.

The one thing I know is that Moreno is a comfortable scapegoat beyond what is actually happening on the pitch.

[Purple Red]

Yeah, his attacking contribution is another fair criticism, but personally I think it's another manifestation of his immaturity and/or stupidity. I can think of loads of situations where he gets into advanced positions, but doesn't have the composure or awareness to pause and either recycle the ball or deliver the right type of ball into an area. It seems like his plan is finished once he gets into position, then he has a brain fart and just chucks a cross in or blams it in hard.

Like in my post above, maybe he can mature. Suspect that Klopp is happy to get rid now though if the right type of replacement is available

He's 24. He should have done the majority of his maturing by now. Some people give Moreno the leniency they give 17-year-old starlets. As someone said earlier, he is not young in football terms and the fact he is as bad now as he was when we signed him is very telling.

[penga]

If it's a choice between Moreno and Robertson I'm backing Moreno

If we manage to get £15m for Moreno, I'm not going to complain if he's sold. As others have pointed out, and there are numerous examples, his all round defensive awareness is poor. It's cost us goals, results and trophies. Added to this, he genuinely does seem to be the first human to function without a brain.

But.

IF, and it's a huge IF - hence why I'd accept £15m and get a replacement, Klopp can bring his defensive skills up to, lets say top 6 standard AND he matures mentally, he'd be a hell of player. Why? Well, physical attributes aren't really something that can be trained and Moreno is absolutely lightning and seems to have an incredible engine. I genuinely think we'd have a brilliant fullback on our hands IF that could be achieved.

In retort to the the "Klopp played a 31 yr old midfielder ahead of him so it's clear he doesn't rate him" argument, I say - correct, but, Klopp was careful to praise him directly for his efforts in training, and I'm sure if Moreno was able to improve his weaknesses, and deliver on the pitch, then Klopp would be open to re-appraising him. To protect myself, I'll be clear, I don't think this will happen, I think his mentality and apparent immaturity will prevent any significant improvement. That said, the inability of football fans to display patience with regards development of players and an understanding that the below standard player currently on display cannot become of the required standard (especially when said footballer has just turned 24) is frustrating. It seems to be more common in this age of just buy someone. Personally, at 24, I was an immature fool. It took a few more years to grow up, focus and make the best of my talents. Maybe this will be the case with Moreno. Who knows. I do accept and agree that if Klopp/LFC don't think it's happening soon, then it would be best for him to grow up on someone else's time/dime.

.
This. There is a good player in there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zot4TgxKoZg

There's a lot more talent there in my opinion than Robertson. He just needs to keep learning and hopefully improve the on the brain-dead decisions everyone remembers him for. We all get sucked into watching youtube videos to see fullbacks amazing crosses, skills and stuff but you don't see the amount of times they miss crosses which is what we see from Moreno watching him week in week out for the last few years. The problem with Robertson is he doesn't even really have those great highlight reels so what are the chances he is magically great at providing attacking threat (while also having a reputation for not being the best defensively)? - there's a couple of youtube videos but it all looks a bit mediocre to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec2axYTbIbI&t=4s Overall (no EPL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf6y7b9OnGk Overall (shorter but with EPL highlights)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGZXSs6WoAE vs France
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6lKxqmiHxI vs Man Utd

[rojo para la vida]

I wake up to yet another photo of Alberto partying with our Brazilian lads who are becoming an increasingly important part of Klopp's plans.

My main sporting passion is our club but I've got a love of horse racing and sometimes in the UK but particularly in the USA, when there's a really special horse, to calm it down and give it the right psychological run up to a big race, they give them a pony that accompanies them everywhere and particularly to trot up to the starting line with. Seems to work really well too. I like Moreno. He looks like a Scouser and has the passion of one. There's not many times that you don't see our Brazilian lads without him, so I think he's become their pony.

Is it wise to get rid of him? Jokes aside, is there a possibility that this obviously decent footballer can improve his game, especially about what has to occur in that organ in the head?

I see that the Independent is making a similar point that I made a few weeks ago. Personally if it made Coutinho happy at this point, I'd keep Moreno for another season, bollocks to the cost of it too.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/philippe-coutinho-liverpool-transfer-news-barcelona-alberto-moreno-jurgen-klopp-a7852451.html

[Dim Glas]

I see that the Independent is making a similar point that I made a few weeks ago. Personally if it made Coutinho happy at this point, I'd keep Moreno for another season, bollocks to the cost of it too.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/philippe-coutinho-liverpool-transfer-news-barcelona-alberto-moreno-jurgen-klopp-a7852451.html

Kinda intriguing I guess that Bobby and Phil are not quite as close.  And that Bobby is looking to move to Formby

I still think Moreno would go if they got a good offer - but that article suggests that no one has come close to matching the fee Liverpool are after.   

[redmark]

no one has come close to matching the fee Liverpool are after.   

I blame BabuYagu.