Topic: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell

[007.lankyguy]

The only thing he does wrong for their second goal is turning his back. With Zaha 1v1 in the box, it's better to stand off than to dive in and risk getting beaten or conceding a penalty.

[farawayred]

The only thing he does wrong for their second goal is turning his back. With Zaha 1v1 in the box, it's better to stand off than to dive in and risk getting beaten or conceding a penalty.

He doesn't need to put in a challenge, he needs to close the space. Do that, and the pass does not happen.

[simbo]

Thought he was decent for the most part other than the occasional Moreno moment.

Genuine question though. How has this 'hands behind the back' technique not been coached out of him? Genuinely wonder that. It's so obviously negatively impacts on his ability to defend yet he obvious hasn't been told to stop it.

It's a Spanish thing, most Spanish defenders do it


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[kennedy81]

Just the one mistake, but nothing that can't be fixed with a word in his ear. Thought he had an excellent game on the whole, especially after being out so long. Shows a good attitude.

[Gerry Attrick]

He's got a lot of character. He's been out of the team for ages, took some absolute pelters for his performances, yet he hasn't kicked up a fuss at all. He's got a good attitude and I think he deserves a lot of respect whether you rate him or not.

[farawayred]

Considering our schedule, I'd play him next week too to give Milner a breather and a chance of proper recovery after his illness.

[Kashinoda]

Awesome, made up for him.

Sloppy on their second but who's arsed.

[simbo]

He's got a lot of character. He's been out of the team for ages, took some absolute pelters for his performances, yet he hasn't kicked up a fuss at all. He's got a good attitude and I think he deserves a lot of respect whether you rate him or not.

Well said lad, well said


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[007.lankyguy]

He doesn't need to put in a challenge, he needs to close the space. Do that, and the pass does not happen.

I don't think you realise how difficult that situation is defensively.



There's no cover behind Moreno, they're inside the box. "Closing the space" in that situation risks exactly the same thing as diving in to win the ball does - it takes his momentum away from goal and Zaha either has the opportunity to beat him, poke it past him or worse case (but very possible) scenario, win a penalty. Saying "he should close down the cross" removes most of the context of that goal. He shouldn't turn his back when Zaha plays the ball but apart from that, he doesn't really do anything wrong there.

[Zoomers]

Great game from him.

[redalways]

Best performance in a Liverpool shirt for Alberto.

[Eeyore]

I don't think you realise how difficult that situation is defensively.



There's no cover behind Moreno, they're inside the box. "Closing the space" in that situation risks exactly the same thing as diving in to win the ball does - it takes his momentum away from goal and Zaha either has the opportunity to beat him, poke it past him or worse case (but very possible) scenario, win a penalty. Saying "he should close down the cross" removes most of the context of that goal. He shouldn't turn his back when Zaha plays the ball but apart from that, he doesn't really do anything wrong there.

His starting position should be better though. That is the criticism.

[007.lankyguy]

His starting position should be better though. That is the criticism.

You want him to get closer than that when he's got no cover and Zaha's in the box? He could possibly get a touch closer but it's pretty minimal. That's not an easy situation for a defender at all and certainly not as clear cut as people are making out.

[RyanBabel19]

Thought he was quality today. Good going forward, strong defensively and his assist was top drawer

Hope he kicks on from this, way too much focus on him

[rowan_d]

He'd be a brilliant fullback if we could take that step to become absolutely dominant in almost every game, as we were for the first half hour today. Unfortunately that's just not realistic, so he'll always be tested (and at this stage, targetted) in defense. If we could get his starting position to be on the halfway line without it leaving us wide open at the back, he'd be boss.

Did okay today I think overall, certainly compared to how I feared things could go. Needs to stop dwelling on the ball after we've won it and are surrounded by opposition players, though that's an issue that seems to go through the team. May even be an instruction from Klopp, though I doubt he asks them to take quite so may risks.

[farawayred]

You want him to get closer than that when he's got no cover and Zaha's in the box? He could possibly get a touch closer but it's pretty minimal. That's not an easy situation for a defender at all and certainly not as clear cut as people are making out.

Watch the video.

The picture doesn't fully speak to the situation. Moreno went there stood and waited before that shot in the frame you posted. He should have kept approaching the player, not digging his heels.

But I agree that it's a difficult situation, and he can learn from that. Especially given more game time.

[Tobelius]

Thought he had a great game today,he's never going to be the best defensively,tackles are sometimes comical etc.. BUT with his pace,directness and stamina he creates much more havoc in the oppositions half than our own when he's on his game.

[Funky_Gibbons]

With the pace Moreno has, there's no reason why he can't get closer to Zaha and show him outside. Other than that, one of his better games.

[dramared]

did good today, faults always get forgotten when you win, thats life

[na fir dearg]

I must have been watching a different game reading some comments here - i thought it was a typical performance from Moreno i.e. typically average
that back heel flick into the middle of nowhere in the second half, why is he still doing things like that?? Just try to the basics right, like getting closer to Zaha on their goal and not getting in Henderson's way a few minutes later

hopefully Milner is back next game

[Johnny B. Goode]

At the level of scrutiny in this thread every player on the pitch will have made a mistake for any given goal we concede. It's unfair to single out Moreno, especially since if we were to focus on individual errors than Dejan comes out a lot worse for both goals.

I'm not Moreno's biggest fan due to his defensive flaws, but to criticise him for the goals is a bit unwarranted.

[007.lankyguy]

Watch the video.

The picture doesn't fully speak to the situation. Moreno went there stood and waited before that shot in the frame you posted. He should have kept approaching the player, not digging his heels.

But I agree that it's a difficult situation, and he can learn from that. Especially given more game time.

Not true. He waits because Zaha's got to the ball first and can easily skip past him if he keeps running at him. So he puts his hands behind his back in case of the early cross and gets into a decent position bearing in mind Zaha's in the box and there's no cover behind him. He perhaps stops a touch too early but it's so minimal. It's certainly not true to say that he should keep approaching him. He turns his back on the cross which he shouldn't do but other than that, he does all the basics there.

[God's Left Peg]

He's got a lot of character. He's been out of the team for ages, took some absolute pelters for his performances, yet he hasn't kicked up a fuss at all. He's got a good attitude and I think he deserves a lot of respect whether you rate him or not.

This. Fair play to the lad.  With the right attitude and application he has the potential to improve. Great character.

[kennedy81]

I don't think you realise how difficult that situation is defensively.
...

It's a difficult situation, and he's done everything right apart from the hands thing. He just needs to make himself large and be on his toes so he can react quickly if Zaha tries to go past him, or make a better attempt at blocking the cross.
You can't do that with your hands behind your back. Try it, it's very hard. Your balance gets all fucked up and you end up rooted to the spot. He was nowhere near the ball when the cross came in because of that.

I don't know why players do this with the hands. No English ref will give a free for handball when you're that close to the other player. Apart from that, he had a very good game so I'm not bashing him. It's something he can work on and improve, rather than it being a lack of ability.
He'll get better with experience I think. He has the potential to be a really top left back in a couple of years if he can learn from his mistakes. I think Klopp sees something in him, so he's in good hands.

[007.lankyguy]

It's a difficult situation, and he's done everything right apart from the hands thing. He just needs to make himself large and be on his toes so he can react quickly if Zaha tries to go past him, or make a better attempt at blocking the cross.
You can't do that with your hands behind your back. Try it, it's very hard. Your balance gets all fucked up and you end up rooted to the spot. He was nowhere near the ball when the cross came in because of that.

Your point on English referees is a decent one actually and does raise an interesting question. To criticise Moreno for it in this situation I think is harsh given it will have been drummed into him by coaches in the past that if he can't close down the cross or shot immediately then it's better to put his hands behind his back and then push out if the attacker takes an extra touch.

But, as you say, given the English referees, it might perhaps be a point for Klopp to address.

[Eeyore]

Not true. He waits because Zaha's got to the ball first and can easily skip past him if he keeps running at him. So he puts his hands behind his back in case of the early cross and gets into a decent position bearing in mind Zaha's in the box and there's no cover behind him. He perhaps stops a touch too early but it's so minimal. It's certainly not true to say that he should keep approaching him. He turns his back on the cross which he shouldn't do but other than that, he does all the basics there.

It is a long ball with Benteke upfront on his own. No one is going to run off the back of Matip and Lovren so Moreno's only task is to get tight to Zaha. It is a small mistake but he has tucked in too far.

Thought he was more than decent but still makes poor decisions. Hopefully Klopp can get him more switched on.

[John C]

Not true. He waits because Zaha's got to the ball first and can easily skip past him if he keeps running at him. So he puts his hands behind his back in case of the early cross and gets into a decent position bearing in mind Zaha's in the box and there's no cover behind him. He perhaps stops a touch too early but it's so minimal. It's certainly not true to say that he should keep approaching him. He turns his back on the cross which he shouldn't do but other than that, he does all the basics there.

Moreno had a boss game today mate, absolutely brilliant, but I'm not having any of that. What you didn't say is that he shouldn't over-commit - but he did the opposite, his hands behind the back is ridiculous and he did stand off far too much. Otherwise I've got no issue with the lad, I fucking love him

[Eeyore]

He's got a lot of character. He's been out of the team for ages, took some absolute pelters for his performances, yet he hasn't kicked up a fuss at all. He's got a good attitude and I think he deserves a lot of respect whether you rate him or not.

Agree about the attitude. Combine that with Klopp's ability to improve players and we might have a player in there.

[Ycuzz]

Anyhoots. That pass for Cans goal was finger lickin' tasty!

[Eeyore]

Moreno had a boss game today mate, absolutely brilliant, but I'm not having any of that. What you didn't say is that he shouldn't over-commit - but he did the opposite, his hands behind the back is ridiculous and he did stand off far too much. Otherwise I've got no issue with the lad, I fucking love him

Spot on. Just don't get the hands behind the back lark. It impedes your ability to sprint and close the distance down and impedes your balance.

[DHKopper]

Did well today.  Long may it continue.

[007.lankyguy]

Moreno had a boss game today mate, absolutely brilliant, but I'm not having any of that. What you didn't say is that he shouldn't over-commit - but he did the opposite, his hands behind the back is ridiculous and he did stand off far too much. Otherwise I've got no issue with the lad, I fucking love him

The hands behind the back thing is a coaching point that has clearly been drummed into him in the past and has very little impact on the actual goal. And it's definitely not true that he stands off "far too much". He's a touch off where he should be at best. To suggest his defending there is ridiculous is... well.. ridiculous

Spot on. Just don't get the hands behind the back lark. It impedes your ability to sprint and close the distance down and impedes your balance.

Mainly because you're not meant to do it while sprinting towards someone. Defenders do it when they can't immediately get out to a potential cross or shot. If the attacker then takes too long and gives you chance to get out to him then you can put your hands down. That's the principal behind it. Whether it's worth it in England is a fair question to ask, but it's definitely not clear cut and there are justifiable reasons behind supporting it in certain situations.

[Eeyore]

The hands behind the back thing is a coaching point that has clearly been drummed into him in the past and has very little impact on the actual goal. And it's definitely not true that he stands off "far too much". He's a touch off where he should be at best. To suggest his defending there is ridiculous is... well.. ridiculous
Mainly because you're not meant to do it while sprinting towards someone. Defenders do it when they can't immediately get out to a potential cross or shot. If the attacker then takes too long and gives you chance to get out to him then you can put your hands down. That's the principal behind it. Whether it's worth it in England is a fair question to ask, but it's definitely not clear cut and there are justifiable reasons behind supporting it in certain situations.

I understand the hands behind the back when you are close to the ball but you have to get there first.

As I say I thought he was good today and don't want to focus on the negatives but for me he was poor for the goal.

If it was the other side I would of expected Clyne to of been much closer but Clyne wouldn't of created the first goal.

[dudleyred]

Very good today. Showed real signs of having learnt from past

[007.lankyguy]

I understand the hands behind the back when you are close to the ball but you have to get there first.

As I say I thought he was good today and don't want to focus on the negatives but for me he was poor for the goal.

If it was the other side I would of expected Clyne to of been much closer but Clyne wouldn't of created the first goal.

He wasn't going to get there first though. In which case, you have to look at what he should do. I think what he did is both totally understandable and largely justifiable. He could do a bit more but I think to argue he does poorly there is a big overstatement.

[hesbighesred]

I think there's some serious backhanded complementing going on here. Moreno was class, he absolutely terrorised them in the first half and put in a string of important tackles in the second. He was utterly tireless, and a constant outlet. Good on him.

[Upinsmoke]

I don't think anyone is saying Moreno should be right on top of Zaha, but he's too far away, he should be half that distance.

Any how he had a really good game, positionally looked better to on the whole.

[Dull Tools]

Thought he was great today and showed what an asset he can be against smaller teams. Provided loads of width when Coutinho was cutting inside. Also thought his final balls were much better than normal. Just a shame his thunderbolt didn't go in and there were none of his mental slide tackles.

[Eeyore]

He wasn't going to get there first though. In which case, you have to look at what he should do. I think what he did is both totally understandable and largely justifiable. He could do a bit more but I think to argue he does poorly there is a big overstatement.

Fine margins mate.

For me it is down to instincts. A more defensively minded full back would of been closer to " Diving here, Diving there Zaha " in the first place.

When he isn't close then his number one job is to make himself big and stop the cross. That means closing the gap and making Zaha do something special.

As I say I thought Moreno played well today.

[007.lankyguy]

Fine margins mate.

For me it is down to instincts. A more defensively minded full back would of been closer to " Diving here, Diving there Zaha " in the first place.

They probably wouldn't have actually. They would have done what he did and realised that he wasn't getting to the ball and needed to consolidate by getting goal side. The correct thing to do would have been to stop a touch later than he did so that he was closer but not so close that Zaha could play the ball past him with one touch or win a penalty.