Author Topic: The Post Office Scandal  (Read 13462 times)

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #40 on: January 8, 2024, 02:47:53 pm »
R5L discussion this morning about this scandal was eye-opening.

The senior execs at Post Office Ltd were given huge bonuses on the back of securing 'recoveries' from these poor subpostmasters. Then they got further bonuses at the conclusion of the inquiry for cooperating - even though it was a legal requirement to cooperate and the inquiry isn't even closed yet. Vennells alone got £170k in bonuses linked to the whole Horizon issue.

What's more, the auditors/investigators were also given targets to achieve successful cases against subpostmasters (and given bonuses for meeting/exceeding those targets). No wonder they were so keen!


Another question I have is: why are Fujitsu not coming under scrutiny here?

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #41 on: January 8, 2024, 02:55:03 pm »
A huge frustration - and definitely feeding into the public sense of disillusionment with politicians - is that it's taken a TV programme and heightened public awareness for politicians - especially this government - to get off their arses and be seen to be doing something.

Disappointed that Starmer has failed to call for Vennellis to hand back her CBE, preferring instead to get his arse more splintered by saying its effectively up to her conscience on whether she does or doesn't. It's not in any way contentious - there's overwhelming public support for the return of the CBE, and he could (should!) tie it in with the whole stink from Bozo's and Truss's crony honours lists.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #42 on: January 8, 2024, 03:24:19 pm »



Another question I have is: why are Fujitsu not coming under scrutiny here?

Great question, i believe Fujitsu forced the Post Office to take the Horizon system even though Fujitsu knew the system was full of bugs & faults, they should be made to pay half of the compensation claims too.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #43 on: January 8, 2024, 03:50:02 pm »
My uncle was a postie during that period and reckons at least three post offices around the Wirral were all affected just from those he was chatty with at the time.  The level of gaslighting from those in power is astonishing - telling each postmaster that it can't be a systemic fault as they're the only ones experiencing it.  How many times can someone trot out that line before they can no longer look at themselves in the mirror?!

Martin Griffiths was one of those, he ran one in Ellesmere Port and after the c*nts had taken him for £100k, he committed suicide by stepping in front of a bus.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #44 on: January 8, 2024, 05:08:01 pm »
A huge frustration - and definitely feeding into the public sense of disillusionment with politicians - is that it's taken a TV programme and heightened public awareness for politicians - especially this government - to get off their arses and be seen to be doing something.

Disappointed that Starmer has failed to call for Vennellis to hand back her CBE, preferring instead to get his arse more splintered by saying its effectively up to her conscience on whether she does or doesn't. It's not in any way contentious - there's overwhelming public support for the return of the CBE, and he could (should!) tie it in with the whole stink from Bozo's and Truss's crony honours lists.



How do you define 'overwhelming'

Firstly, Starmer has no power or mandate to demand this has he?

Secondly, what is the figure out of 68 million people that are demanding this?

1.1 Million from what I can see? Which is about 1.61% of the population.

Is that overwhelming?
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #45 on: January 8, 2024, 05:23:59 pm »
Apparently although the Horizon system was rolled out right across the PO in 1999 , Fujitsu and the PO conducted a pilot of Horizon in 1995 across some 300 branches. Glitches in the system were reported and I understand that some of the postmasters in this pilot were prosecuted. Defies belief.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #46 on: January 8, 2024, 05:35:11 pm »
How do you define 'overwhelming'

Firstly, Starmer has no power or mandate to demand this has he?

Secondly, what is the figure out of 68 million people that are demanding this?

1.1 Million from what I can see? Which is about 1.61% of the population.

Is that overwhelming?


Why do you have to pick a row over every criticism of Starmer?

Firstly, only a minority of people with an opinion on something will ever take the trouble to put their name to a petition - but 1.1m (and how many for a petition for her to keep it?) is impressive.

But it's a sidelining issue to discuss.

The core point is that saying something like "Of course she [Vennells] should give back her CBE. Keeping it discredits who whole honours system, along with Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Liz Truss giving gongs to their Tory cronies" shows him siding with 'Joe Public' whilst also having a pop at the corruption of Bozo and Lettuce.

A no-lose.

Instead, just another insipid bit of fence-sitting.

Now Little Fishy has declared he'd support the Honours Committee removing her CBE.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #47 on: January 8, 2024, 06:15:41 pm »

Firstly, Starmer has no power or mandate to demand this has he?
Exactly. Of all the people who deserve criticism for failures in this case, I wasn’t expecting Kier Starmer to be included on the list! Expect the unexpected I guess.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #48 on: January 8, 2024, 06:24:39 pm »
I think it's more about Starmer wanting to be seen as acting professionally, everything he says is used to attack him.

Am guessing but I think the problem for Starmer is if he calls for her CBE to be stripped then he would be passing judgement without her being convicted of any crime yet,  some could say yeah the evidence is damming but as a Lawyer and ex head of CPS he should know better.
I would be ok with him calling for her CBE to be stripped but we will see what the Honours committee says about it, maybe they might say we have to give her a chance to defend herself before we strip her CBE. she could argue the countrys already passed judgement on my guilt so it will be impossible to get a fair trial.
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Offline Huyrob

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #49 on: January 8, 2024, 06:48:16 pm »
I agree, though she did have an opportunity to “defend herself” or at least to be open when before the Select Committee……she didn’t she slithered, obfuscated and lied.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #50 on: January 8, 2024, 06:55:57 pm »
I think it's more about Starmer wanting to be seen as acting professionally, everything he says is used to attack him.

Am guessing but I think the problem for Starmer is if he calls for her CBE to be stripped then he would be passing judgement without her being convicted of any crime yet,  some could say yeah the evidence is damming but as a Lawyer and ex head of CPS he should know better.
I would be ok with him calling for her CBE to be stripped but we will see what the Honours committee says about it, maybe they might say we have to give her a chance to defend herself before we strip her CBE. she could argue the countrys already passed judgement on my guilt so it will be impossible to get a fair trial.

Exactly.

Our CEO hasn't got a clue about our IT systems, he has no idea what we can do if we felt like it. If one of my colleagues hadn't fucked ages ago, our DBA would never have known we had a back door that allowed us to write to and update tables without permissions and without their knowledge, so the bosses are relying on us being honest. From that doc, Fujitsu accidentally showed one fella how they could access a terminal without the Subpostmaster knowing and they then scrubbed the logs to show he'd never been there and the post office fucked the fellas career. It's proving the CEO knew what was going on and in that doc, she's seen asking if it was possible at one point and being told no its not.

As said previously, why are Fujitsu getting an easy ride?
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #51 on: January 8, 2024, 07:20:11 pm »
Exactly.

Our CEO hasn't got a clue about our IT systems, he has no idea what we can do if we felt like it. If one of my colleagues hadn't fucked ages ago, our DBA would never have known we had a back door that allowed us to write to and update tables without permissions and without their knowledge, so the bosses are relying on us being honest. From that doc, Fujitsu accidentally showed one fella how they could access a terminal without the Subpostmaster knowing and they then scrubbed the logs to show he'd never been there and the post office fucked the fellas career. It's proving the CEO knew what was going on and in that doc, she's seen asking if it was possible at one point and being told no its not.

As said previously, why are Fujitsu getting an easy ride?
Yeah, I mentioned Vennells Jan 2015 email yesterday, how she was asking if it was possible to access Postmasters accounts remotely.
 Imagine Vennells and others will say they only repeated what they were told by Fujitsu. that might work up to say 2015 so other evidence is needed for after this date.
I think a lot of people are involved in this conspiracy. the people who were responsible for the broken system but tried to hide it from the Post office. the people in the post office who tried to cover it up when the postmasters prosecutions started, the people who should have known they were prosecuting innocent people.
« Last Edit: January 8, 2024, 07:26:23 pm by oldfordie »
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Offline TSC

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #52 on: January 8, 2024, 10:46:53 pm »
Yeah, I mentioned Vennells Jan 2015 email yesterday, how she was asking if it was possible to access Postmasters accounts remotely.
 Imagine Vennells and others will say they only repeated what they were told by Fujitsu. that might work up to say 2015 so other evidence is needed for after this date.
I think a lot of people are involved in this conspiracy. the people who were responsible for the broken system but tried to hide it from the Post office. the people in the post office who tried to cover it up when the postmasters prosecutions started, the people who should have known they were prosecuting innocent people.

Don’t know if it will come out but basic questions include, what process was undertaken that led to the appointment of Fujitsu and its system solution & what contractual terms govern the relationship between the PO and Fujitsu?  It appears one or both parties are at fault here.

And then you read this https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-08/fujitsu-has-won-more-than-150-government-contracts-since-horizon-scandal

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #53 on: January 9, 2024, 12:24:27 am »
Don’t know if it will come out but basic questions include, what process was undertaken that led to the appointment of Fujitsu and its system solution & what contractual terms govern the relationship between the PO and Fujitsu?  It appears one or both parties are at fault here.

And then you read this https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-08/fujitsu-has-won-more-than-150-government-contracts-since-horizon-scandal
It stinks. more and more is going to come out of this in the future.  you won't stop corruption but people shouldn't spend decades fighting for justice when they have so much evidence proving they are innocent. we thought those days were over.
What sickens me is how many people must have been involved in creating this injustice over the years and how many involved in covering it up. some must have walked into it with their eyes closed, imagine many have taken the blinkers off and looking at it in a different light, they must be crapping themselves now for being so stupid.



A lot of people are a bit annoyed over it taking a docu-drama before the public reacted. I understand where they are coming from but I think most people already knew the Postmasters were fighting to clear their names but it has to grab their attention first which this docu drama did. the publics reaction has been astounding, we've had enough of people in high places never facing accountability for corruption etc etc.  I suppose this has come to light at the worst possible time for the people involved in this conspiracy, any bullshit about it not being in the public interest to delve deep into this scandal will be met with public outrage.
Read about this the other day. afair remember she's not mentioned in the docu-drama.
Post Office auditor signed Court statement containing info she knew was false


Helen Rose is a former Post Office auditor and investigator. Mrs Rose has no formal auditing qualifications or training, no training she can recall on the Post Office Horizon IT system and no formal training in investigation. She is also the author of the Helen Rose report, which provided some of the first concrete evidence that incomplete information was being used as the basis of Horizon prosecutions. More on that here.

Today at the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry, Mrs Rose was asked about a witness statement she made during the trial of Lee Castleton, a Subpostmaster who was bankrupted by the Post Office at the High Court. In March 2004, Mrs Rose “audited” Lee’s branch and found a £23,000 discrepancy. Lee was immediately suspended, later sacked, and then taken to court over the allegedly missing money.

In Helen Rose’s contemporaneous audit report she notes that Lee was pleased to see the auditors turn up at his branch (he had requested the audit). Mrs Rose notes that Lee explained he had called the Post Office helpline “regularly” in an attempt to get the problems with his Horizon IT system fixed. Both these pieces of information were missing from her 2006 witness statement to the High Court.

In the first draft of her witness statement to the High Court, Mrs Rose also stated:

“As part of an audit, we have to complete a procedural security inspection… The inspection revealed that the safe was left open, the safe keys were left in the safe door and it was not secured, that cash and stock were not secured during lunchtime if the Sub-Postmaster was not on the premises, that Travellers Cheques were not kept in the safe and Foreign Currency was not held securely, that standard procedures for adjusting losses and gains were not adhered to (because losses were unauthorised) and personal cheques on hand had been incorrectly treated.”

This was not true. Mrs Rose, or someone on her behalf, had incorrectly transposed information from an incomplete generic report into her witness statement. In September 2006, Mrs Rose was asked by the Post Office legal team to carefully read her draft witness statement to the High Court. She did so, and raised the issue of the incorrect information above.

On 3 October 2006 Mrs Rose had a conversation with Stephen Dilley, the solicitor acting for the Post Office. The note of that conversation records she worked with him to clarify and correctly reflect the situation, which was that, at Mr Castleton’s branch, the matter of the discrepancy was raised first. This led directly to Castleton’s suspension, before the security checks could be properly completed.

On 4 October 2006 Mrs Rose was presented with a second witness statement, which inserted a new paragraph to state:

“As part of a normal audit, we have to complete a procedural security inspection. This was initiated by my colleague Chris Taylor. When a postmaster is suspended then any remaining compliance tests are not completed, because of the large number of compliance tests (including security compliance) that have to be completed for each audit. Accordingly
although the procedural security inspection was started as a matter of routine, I do not recall it being completed because Mr Castleton was suspended prior to its completion, and it then became irrelevant.”

Nonetheless, the incorrect paragraph, stating (as quoted above) that “safe keys were left in the safe door and it was not secured… cash and stock were not secured… standard procedures for adjusting losses and gains were not adhered to (because losses were unauthorised) and personal cheques on hand had been incorrectly treated”, remained.

Mrs Rose had no explanation for this. The inquiry chair, Sir Wyn Williams, pointed out that she had signed a witness statement to the High Court containing information which she knew was wrong. He wanted to know why.

“I have no recollection of it. I’m sorry” said Mrs Rose.

Elsewhere in her 2006 witness statement to the High Court, Mrs Rose noted that during her audit, Lee Castleton went for lunch and came back “smelling strongly of alcohol”. This recollection was absent from her 2004 audit report. Asked why it was not in her audit report, but suddenly appeared in a witness statement to the High Court two years later, Mrs Rose said:

“I don’t know why that wasn’t in, or came later” said Mrs Rose.

Mrs Rose couldn’t explain why information which would have been helpful to Mr Castleton – his being pleased to see the auditors and his consistent raising of complaints about problems with the Horizon system – was missing from her witness statement to the High Court. Nor could she explain why an apparently invented (or, charitably, lately recollected) detail about Lee Castleton smelling of alcohol had found its way into her 2006 witness statement to the High Court, when there was no mention of it in her 2004 audit report.

By the time it got to trial, in December 2006, Helen Rose had adjusted her recollection about the alcohol matter to say “it was just a vague memory I had of the office”, and apologised to Lee Castleton for making the suggestion he did smell of booze.

Later in her evidence to the Inquiry today, Mrs Rose was asked about the Rose Report, and was taken through her investigation into what happened at the Lepton Post Office branch in 2012. I’ll leave you to watch it or read the transcript here.

It was interesting to note that whilst the Rose report was an exceptionally important document, and used to inform the Clarke Advice, which led to the cessation of all Post Office prosecutions, Mrs Rose had no information to offer the Inquiry on the recommendations in her report, nor its wider effect on the Post Office Security Team. Nor did she take any interest in the subsequent Postmasters’ campaign for justice. She also had little or no recollection of a Subpostmaster who took his own life after one of her investigations, nor the internal disciplinary process she was subject to afterwards.
https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/post-office-auditor/



« Last Edit: January 9, 2024, 12:29:14 am by oldfordie »
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #54 on: January 9, 2024, 07:56:29 am »

Why do you have to pick a row over every criticism of Starmer?

Firstly, only a minority of people with an opinion on something will ever take the trouble to put their name to a petition - but 1.1m (and how many for a petition for her to keep it?) is impressive.

But it's a sidelining issue to discuss.

The core point is that saying something like "Of course she [Vennells] should give back her CBE. Keeping it discredits who whole honours system, along with Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Liz Truss giving gongs to their Tory cronies" shows him siding with 'Joe Public' whilst also having a pop at the corruption of Bozo and Lettuce.

A no-lose.

Instead, just another insipid bit of fence-sitting.

Now Little Fishy has declared he'd support the Honours Committee removing her CBE.



It is a very impressive number, certainly.

And if those votes were to pressure Starmer into saying what you suggest, then that would make some sense.

But it wasn't, was it?



This is what Starmer said;

"Whether she hands back her award is really a matter for her, but I do think there's a more important point in many senses here, compensation for these victims is overdue"


Which sounds fair enough to me. Not sure why you've even dragged Starmer into this row? Seems a bit random.


People getting compensation is the most important thing here I think? I think you'd have to be a bit odd to think that removal of a CBE over people getting fair compensation is more important?

« Last Edit: January 9, 2024, 08:05:00 am by Andy @ Allerton! »
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #55 on: January 9, 2024, 08:59:54 am »
Looks like a lot of pressure is coming onto Davey. Hopefully that leads to him resigning.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #56 on: January 9, 2024, 09:13:55 am »
Exactly. Of all the people who deserve criticism for failures in this case, I wasn’t expecting Kier Starmer to be included on the list! Expect the unexpected I guess.

But he was the head of the CPS………..or something.

I’m sure the likes if the Mail will be mentioning this even though the PO investigated the false allegations and prosecuted in each case.

A local authority I worked for entered into a contract with Fujitsu and part of the deal was that they would provide all software solutions.

Legal services wanted a case management system, freely available for about £35k. We did a lot of work with one of their consultant who drew up a very elegant flow chart of the processes involved and then said that the cost of their bespoke system would be £250k. Needless to say that option wouldn’t be taken up.

Several years later there was an ‘amicable’ divorce.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #57 on: January 9, 2024, 09:17:57 am »
Seems that Fujitsu are getting away lightly here.

Quote
Stride stopped short of saying Fujitsu, the firm behind the faulty Horizon accounting software, should be barred from winning government contracts while the Post Office inquiry is continuing.

“My view is that we need to wait to see what the inquiry decides in terms of culpability,” he told Times Radio.

“Now in the event that it determines that Fujitsu made a number of knowing mistakes and caused all sorts of problems that wouldn’t have otherwise have occurred, then that would strike me as being quite a serious situation and I would expect some very serious consequences.”

But he indicated in an interview on Sky News, when asked if Fujitsu should help foot the bill from the scandal, that the government would look to others when it came to costs.

“I think it is certainly the case where we are not going to be in a position where we are saying: ‘Oh it’s the taxpayer who is picking up the bill here,’” he said.

However, there was also pushback on Tuesday morning against automatically quashing the convictions, an idea supported by figures including two former justice secretaries, the Tory MP Robert Buckland and the Labour peer Charlie Falconer.

Dominic Grieve, a former attorney general for England and Wales, said on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme that it was “not a particularly commendable approach”.

Like a royal pardon, it would not necessarily “get rid of convictions”, he said, warning that anything short of total exoneration for those convicted in the Horizon scandal would feel like a shortcut.

A former chair of the Criminal Cases Review Commission, Prof Graham Zellick KC, also said he did not believe legislation was the right approach. “I am pretty confident that given the necessary resources the CCRC could do this job very quickly and the court of appeal could respond with equal expedition,” he told BBC Radio 4.

The scandal was “deplorable” and “chiefly a political failure”, he added, saying it was only now that anyone was seizing on the issue with conviction because of the recently broadcast ITV drama that told the story of the wronged operators.
« Last Edit: January 9, 2024, 09:22:18 am by Red-Soldier »

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #58 on: January 9, 2024, 09:19:40 am »
We used some Fujitsu servers at work for a few years and they were a nightmare. Thankfully we've finally phased them all out in the last few months.

Terrible reliability, really bad support and badly designed monitoring software.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #59 on: January 9, 2024, 09:31:36 am »
“I think it is certainly the case where we are not going to be in a position where we are saying: ‘Oh it’s the taxpayer who is picking up the bill here,’” [Stride] said.
I think it's certainly the case that that's exactly what will happen.  When was the last time a private company was held accountable for their failings by this government??

Where are the TaxPayers' Alliance when you need them, eh?  I guess they're too busy banging on about the need for more austerity.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #60 on: January 9, 2024, 09:34:23 am »
But he was the head of the CPS………..or something.

I’m sure the likes if the Mail will be mentioning this even though the PO investigated the false allegations and prosecuted in each case.

A local authority I worked for entered into a contract with Fujitsu and part of the deal was that they would provide all software solutions.

Legal services wanted a case management system, freely available for about £35k. We did a lot of work with one of their consultant who drew up a very elegant flow chart of the processes involved and then said that the cost of their bespoke system would be £250k. Needless to say that option wouldn’t be taken up.

Several years later there was an ‘amicable’ divorce.


Yep, CPS had nothing to do with the prosecutions, they private prosecutions that were entirely managed by Post Office LTD & it's predecessors.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #61 on: January 9, 2024, 09:41:00 am »
I think it's certainly the case that that's exactly what will happen.  When was the last time a private company was held accountable for their failings by this government??

Where are the TaxPayers' Alliance when you need them, eh?  I guess they're too busy banging on about the need for more austerity.

Yep.  It's standard procedure.  I'd be amazed if a private company was made to foot the bill.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #62 on: January 9, 2024, 09:45:55 am »
We used some Fujitsu servers at work for a few years and they were a nightmare. Thankfully we've finally phased them all out in the last few months.

Terrible reliability, really bad support and badly designed monitoring software.

I had dealings with them when I worked for the Government on [REDACTED] - they seemed pretty poor and the stuff they took over wasn't very good at all.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #63 on: January 9, 2024, 10:28:12 am »
I had dealings with them when I worked for the Government on [REDACTED] - they seemed pretty poor and the stuff they took over wasn't very good at all.

Massive brown envelopes handed out to secure these contracts is my assumption......
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #64 on: January 9, 2024, 10:49:44 am »
Don’t know if it will come out but basic questions include, what process was undertaken that led to the appointment of Fujitsu and its system solution & what contractual terms govern the relationship between the PO and Fujitsu?  It appears one or both parties are at fault here.

And then you read this https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-08/fujitsu-has-won-more-than-150-government-contracts-since-horizon-scandal


ICL (a British computer company formed in 1968) was the preferred IT supplier of the public sector for a long time and supplied almost all IT infrastructure to departments like Inland Revenue, DWP (and forerunners of both), MoD, along with most local authorities and utility companies. I remember working on ICL terminals at the Inland Revenue.

ICL was bought by Fujitsu (who they'd been partnering-up with for several years) in 1998, and Fujitsu took over the 'favoured supplier' tag for the public sector.

Remember, this was when IT systems were a lot more bespoke, before MS-based stuff came to absolutely dominate.

In the case of Fujitsu, I don't think them winning lots of public sector contracts is anything that sinister, but rather more lazy/'better the devil you know' mentality amongst those awarding contracts.

« Last Edit: January 9, 2024, 10:51:36 am by Nobby Reserve »
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #65 on: January 9, 2024, 11:04:15 am »

ICL (a British computer company formed in 1968) was the preferred IT supplier of the public sector for a long time and supplied almost all IT infrastructure to departments like Inland Revenue, DWP (and forerunners of both), MoD, along with most local authorities and utility companies. I remember working on ICL terminals at the Inland Revenue.

ICL was bought by Fujitsu (who they'd been partnering-up with for several years) in 1998, and Fujitsu took over the 'favoured supplier' tag for the public sector.

Remember, this was when IT systems were a lot more bespoke, before MS-based stuff came to absolutely dominate.

In the case of Fujitsu, I don't think them winning lots of public sector contracts is anything that sinister, but rather more lazy/'better the devil you know' mentality amongst those awarding contracts.
It always irritated me when I worked in a local authority that the first criteria for any procurement was "have they worked with a local authority before?".  That the answer was "Yes - but everyone detests them" was still seen as a positive.  The outrage from the IT procurement people when we procured Tableau instead of the Oracle (non-) equivalent was crazy and rumbled on for years.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #66 on: January 9, 2024, 11:54:52 am »

ICL (a British computer company formed in 1968) was the preferred IT supplier of the public sector for a long time and supplied almost all IT infrastructure to departments like Inland Revenue, DWP (and forerunners of both), MoD, along with most local authorities and utility companies. I remember working on ICL terminals at the Inland Revenue.

ICL was bought by Fujitsu (who they'd been partnering-up with for several years) in 1998, and Fujitsu took over the 'favoured supplier' tag for the public sector.

Remember, this was when IT systems were a lot more bespoke, before MS-based stuff came to absolutely dominate.

In the case of Fujitsu, I don't think them winning lots of public sector contracts is anything that sinister, but rather more lazy/'better the devil you know' mentality amongst those awarding contracts.

According to some of the interviews I saw people are accusing Fujitsu of knowing the system had certain faults in it and doing nothing about it. If that's true they shouldn't be allowed to roll out anything until all the faults have been corrected. It could happen somewhere else otherwise.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #67 on: January 9, 2024, 12:04:30 pm »
We've just started watching the itv series on this and Paul's just asked whether all the issues with the software just disappeared after the first wave of charges and prosecutions happened or are they still happening?

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #68 on: January 9, 2024, 12:25:12 pm »
According to some of the interviews I saw people are accusing Fujitsu of knowing the system had certain faults in it and doing nothing about it. If that's true they shouldn't be allowed to roll out anything until all the faults have been corrected. It could happen somewhere else otherwise.


IMO, they should have to refund all the money paid to them for Horizon. They essentially supplied an IT system that was intrinsically not fit for purpose.

But, as others have pointed out, when was the last time corporation were made to pick up the full bill for their incompetence?
« Last Edit: January 9, 2024, 12:26:46 pm by Nobby Reserve »
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #69 on: January 9, 2024, 01:14:40 pm »
#Sausages

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #70 on: January 9, 2024, 01:25:19 pm »
Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells to hand back her CBE

https://news.sky.com/story/former-post-office-boss-paula-vennells-to-hand-back-her-cbe-13044576

I love how she's only sorry enough to hand it back now after her actions in the scandal have been exposed and not in 2019.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #71 on: January 9, 2024, 01:28:21 pm »
I love how she's only sorry enough to hand it back now after her actions in the scandal have been exposed and not in 2019.

It's mad she was even awarded an honour, when the full extent of the scandal was known about at the time. :butt

#Sausages

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #72 on: January 9, 2024, 01:29:20 pm »
According to some of the interviews I saw people are accusing Fujitsu of knowing the system had certain faults in it and doing nothing about it. If that's true they shouldn't be allowed to roll out anything until all the faults have been corrected. It could happen somewhere else otherwise.

Usually a major software implementation will include a pre implementation phase via user approval testing or via pilot.  I think there was at least a pilot in this case but despite issues being flagged during said pilot full implementation appears to have carried on regardless.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #73 on: January 9, 2024, 01:32:35 pm »
It's mad she was even awarded an honour, when the full extent of the scandal was known about at the time. :butt



Little snippet I read on the BBC website.

In 2017 she was in the final list of three people interviewed to become Bishop of London, the third most senior post in the Church of England.

The state of this country.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #74 on: January 9, 2024, 01:36:57 pm »
It's mad she was even awarded an honour, when the full extent of the scandal was known about at the time. :butt

Well yes obviously but public service always seems to be rewarded in the honours whether it's earned or not 🤷

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #75 on: January 9, 2024, 02:04:43 pm »
It's mad she was even awarded an honour, when the full extent of the scandal was known about at the time. :butt



Tories in being Tories shocker, they look after their own - look at the Truss list.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #76 on: January 9, 2024, 02:31:49 pm »

IMO, they should have to refund all the money paid to them for Horizon. They essentially supplied an IT system that was intrinsically not fit for purpose.

But, as others have pointed out, when was the last time corporation were made to pick up the full bill for their incompetence?


"They essentially supplied an IT system that was intrinsically not fit for purpose."

Not sure that's true. It was fit for purpose, but had significant issues that should have been properly investigated and fixed. The problem is that this wasn't done and that the Post Office Management made the peculiar decision to prosecute rather than find the error(s).

Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #77 on: January 9, 2024, 02:32:49 pm »
Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells to hand back her CBE

https://news.sky.com/story/former-post-office-boss-paula-vennells-to-hand-back-her-cbe-13044576

Good. She should also be prosecuted for her part in the management decisions of the time.
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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #78 on: January 9, 2024, 02:38:10 pm »
I wander if that was under the advice of her lawyers, so she can be shown to have expressed some kind of remorse should she end up on trial....

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Re: The Post Office Scandal
« Reply #79 on: January 9, 2024, 02:48:57 pm »
I wander if that was under the advice of her lawyers, so she can be shown to have expressed some kind of remorse should she end up on trial....

Undoubtedly.
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