Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[BabuYagu]

But he does make some impact on these stats, and one can say something about the effectiveness of a player if player A makes half the tackles of player B and also has about half the number of successful tackles but manages to do that with more than 3 times less fouls committed, for example. You also can't solely judge him on his defensive contribution when he also makes a decent contribution in attack, you aren't judging Lallana on his lack of tackles are you?

This is our 4 midfielders again (per 90 minutes over the full last season):

Player	Tackles won	Tackles lost	Fouls committed	Interceptions	Successful take ons %	Total duels %
Wijnaldum	1.03	1.72	0.67	0.79	70%	49.80%
Can	1.96	3.55	2.64	1.09	56.76%	40.91%
Lallana	1.39	2.62	0.65	0.73	62.75%	45.11%
Henderson	2.76	3.4	1.15	1.87	41.67%	44.4%

Is Wijnaldum perfect a perfect "fighting" defensive midfielder, no obviously not. Is he our worst midfielder when it comes to battling for the ball in midfield, also not if one goes by the available stats. He has advantages over the other players in midfield, and disadvantages, in some ways he is 'better' than Can, in others worse, in some ways he is 'better' than Lallana, in others worse. He seems to be in between these players stylistically?

Interestingly, Can's role this season is either the #6 or #8. Gini has been playing the Lallana role in midfield this season - which he isn't suited to as he cannot play in tight spaces in the same way.

[Art of Lies]

Interestingly, Can's role this season is either the #6 or #8. Gini has been playing the Lallana role in midfield this season - which he isn't suited to as he cannot play in tight spaces in the same way.

I think we could sum up our issues in midfield by saying we need Mane back from suspension, we need Coutinho to get over not having had a pre-season and to be back to his best and covering for Lallana, who we need back from injury. Once that is the case our midfield 'problems' with Wijnaldum will have sorted themselves out without him having to become a better player all of a sudden. And then we will have options for rotation too.

Whatever your position on our team/transfer business I don't think anyone can honestly say that is something that should of been predicted or would of been solved by more (late) signings. If that were the case then AOC would have featured in midfield already, or is he also not good enough for some?

[BabuYagu]

I think we could sum up our issues in midfield by saying we need Mane back from suspension, we need Coutinho to get over not having had a pre-season and to be back to his best and covering for Lallana, who we need back from injury. Once that is the case our midfield 'problems' with Wijnaldum will have sorted themselves out without him having to become a better player all of a sudden. And then we will have options for rotation too.

Whatever your position on our team/transfer business I don't think anyone can honestly say that is something that should of been predicted or would of been solved by more (late) signings. If that were the case then AOC would have featured in midfield already, or is he also not good enough for some?

Suspect we won't see Chamberlain as a CM until he is up to speed with the side tactically. We've seen the problems one player going off book causes to our compactness and how we go from solid to mess in 5 seconds as one person goes off the tactical plan. So until Chamberlain is up to speed on what we want in the role, he will be kept away from central midfield by and large other than to provide late legs.

[JackWard33]

But he does make some impact on these stats, and one can say something about the effectiveness of a player if player A makes half the tackles of player B and also has about half the number of successful tackles but manages to do that with more than 3 times less fouls committed, for example. You also can't solely judge him on his defensive contribution when he also makes a decent contribution in attack, you aren't judging Lallana on his lack of tackles are you?

This is our 4 midfielders again (per 90 minutes over the full last season):

Player	Tackles won	Tackles lost	Fouls committed	Interceptions	Successful take ons %	Total duels %
Wijnaldum	1.03	1.72	0.67	0.79	70%	49.80%
Can	1.96	3.55	2.64	1.09	56.76%	40.91%
Lallana	1.39	2.62	0.65	0.73	62.75%	45.11%
Henderson	2.76	3.4	1.15	1.87	41.67%	44.4%

Is Wijnaldum perfect a perfect "fighting" defensive midfielder, no obviously not. Is he our worst midfielder when it comes to battling for the ball in midfield, also not if one goes by the available stats. He has advantages over the other players in midfield, and disadvantages, in some ways he is 'better' than Can, in others worse, in some ways he is 'better' than Lallana, in others worse. He seems to be in between these players stylistically?

Why are you posting tables of stats that show he makes the least impact defensively and then claiming he isn't the least impactful.  He attempts the least tackles, wins the least tackles and wins the joint least interceptions? I mean I don't mind just ignoring all those stats for the discussion  - but why post them to make a case they don't make?

Also what is the point of a successful take ons % stat? I've literally never seen that metric anywhere. How many take ons attempted is that per 90? He doesn't complete a lot of dribbles per 90 so I suspect its pretty low.

Idk I don't see anything he does at an elite level. And I've read a lot of text from you and Babu and I'm not buying there is anything he does at an elite level. I also don't think he's in our first XI with everyone fit so its fine - he's a fine squad player for the right games (mostly at home!!)
I would like to see him tried further forward at some point to see if he can do the things he does well more often in the final third

[jepovic]

I think we could sum up our issues in midfield by saying we need Mane back from suspension, we need Coutinho to get over not having had a pre-season and to be back to his best and covering for Lallana, who we need back from injury. Once that is the case our midfield 'problems' with Wijnaldum will have sorted themselves out without him having to become a better player all of a sudden. And then we will have options for rotation too.

Whatever your position on our team/transfer business I don't think anyone can honestly say that is something that should of been predicted or would of been solved by more (late) signings. If that were the case then AOC would have featured in midfield already, or is he also not good enough for some?

AOC is an expensive squad player, IMO. Not bad, but not good enough to improve us. I'm fine with signing squad players, but it's crazy that he cost us as much as Salah and as much as Can and Gini combined. Inflation, sure, but still. There's a very real chance that AOC won't even make the bench with Lallana and Coutinho fit.

He'll make a good RB eventually, but he has to get used to the idea first.
Like Carra said, nobody grows up dreaming about becoming a full back 

[Lastrador]

Completely agree on Can reckless, unnecessary and frankly stupid press further up the pitch as a big part on the goal and the reason why we lost our shape in the first place. That's the first thing that I noticed on re-watch and what I meant with Can being worse than I remember, I should have been more specific though . I recalled Can jogging/walking back and leaving that huge gap in the midfield for Henderson and Gini to cover, didn't remember why that was though.

I'm more willing to put a larger blame on that goal to Can now but still feel Gini should have done better to close the space between him and the centerbacks, covering the space Henderson vacated trying to cover Can's position, and failing that being more decisive and aware on Correa's run. They're not huge mistakes, and I'm not sure if I would call them mistakes as Can's press clearly was, but it is a recurring problem in our midfield this season, this little instances of payers not being aware or decisive enough to spot the dangers, that kind of add up and we end up conceding goals in positions that we shouldn’t have. I mean we were 2-1 up against Sevilla on that play, what was on Can's mind pressing that high and aggressively in the first place?

Edit: Watching that clip again it seems to me Gini was caught between two minds in trying to cover the gap on the midfield and not leaving our left side exposed. It was a tough decision to be fair and one he was put unnecessarily into but this is the kind of instances we have to get better if we're to play the way Klopp wants us to play, because playing in such a way will always lead to mistakes like Can's, that we have to get better at mitigating.

[Art of Lies]

Why are you posting tables of stats that show he makes the least impact defensively and then claiming he isn't the least impactful.  He attempts the least tackles, wins the least tackles and wins the joint least interceptions? I mean I don't mind just ignoring all those stats for the discussion  - but why post them to make a case they don't make?

Also what is the point of a successful take ons % stat? I've literally never seen that metric anywhere. How many take ons attempted is that per 90? He doesn't complete a lot of dribbles per 90 so I suspect its pretty low.

Idk I don't see anything he does at an elite level. And I've read a lot of text from you and Babu and I'm not buying there is anything he does at an elite level. I also don't think he's in our first XI with everyone fit so its fine - he's a fine squad player for the right games (mostly at home!!)
I would like to see him tried further forward at some point to see if he can do the things he does well more often in the final third

I am being honest with the stats I am posting by not being selective? Why is Lallana not receive the same criticism for his poor tackling? Is he not a CM?

And the question I have posed more than once already, is it really that much more valuable to have someone that makes twice the tackles but also have twice the number of failed tackles, while also being three times as likely to commit a foul. Is the player that makes more tackles then really a better defender?

Why won't you answer that question....

You have also gone from him being our worst midfielder to now saying he is not elite and judging him on that basis, that seems like moving the goalposts a bit. By that metric all but two or three of our current players aren't more than fine squad players?

[JackWard33]

I am being honest with the stats I am posting by not being selective? Why is Lallana not receive the same criticism for his poor tackling? Is he not a CM?

And the question I have posed more than once already, is it really that much more valuable to have someone that makes twice the tackles but also have twice the number of failed tackles, while also being three times as likely to commit a foul. Is the player that makes more tackles then really a better defender?

Why won't you answer that question....

You have also gone from him being our worst midfielder to now saying he is not elite and judging him on that basis, that seems like moving the goalposts a bit. By that metric all but two or three of our current players aren't more than fine squad players?

1) we're not talking about Lallana
2) I have no idea what the answer to that tackling numbers question is so can't help
3) don't think it's moving the goal posts is it - him being our worst cm but also being fine as a squad player who isn't first choice doesn't seem mutually exclusive he could be both someone's got to be the worst of the 4

[Art of Lies]

Completely agree on Can reckless, unnecessary and frankly stupid press further up the pitch as a big part on the goal and the reason why we lost our shape in the first place. That's the first thing that I noticed on re-watch and what I meant with Can being worse than I remember, I should have been more specific though . I recalled Can jogging/walking back and leaving that huge gap in the midfield for Henderson and Gini to cover, didn't remember why that was though.

I'm more willing to put a larger blame on that goal to Can now but still feel Gini should have done better to close the space in front of the centerbacks, which is the space Henderson vacated trying to cover Can's position, and being more decisive and aware on Correa's run. It's not a huge mistake, and I'm not sure if I would call it a mistake per se as Can's press clearly was, but it is something recurring in our midfield this season, this little instances of payers not being aware or decisive enough to spot the dangers, that kind of add up and we end up conceding goals in positions that we shouldn’t have. We were 2-1 up against Sevilla on that play, what was on Can's mind pressing that high and aggressively in the first place?

Fair play to you for realising straight away on re-watching that your recollection of events was a little distorted. I don't think anyone sticking up for Wijnaldum is suggesting he is perfect or completely free from blame at all times but it does seem he is a bit of a scapegoat for problems we have in midfield.

It just shows how our mind can play tricks on us I guess, Can is well liked for obvious reasons so his catalogue of errors for that goal get overlooked and Wijnaldum's mistake gets amplified until he is at fault for the goal. I am not trying to point a finger at you at all because you seem very reasonable, and you are right that if Wijnaldum had reacted faster he might have prevented the issues caused by Can's lack of discipline. I just though it perfectly illustrates what seems to be going on here with some people. Emotions colour our memory and perception, we are not computers after all.

[Art of Lies]

1) we're not talking about Lallana
2) I have no idea what the answer to that tackling numbers question is so can't help
3) don't think it's moving the goal posts is it - him being our worst cm but also being fine as a squad player who isn't first choice doesn't seem mutually exclusive he could be both someone's got to be the worst of the 4

1)Looks at the topic title, I thought we were talking about our midfield as a unit, or is this now the lets blame Wijnaldum for all the issues in our midfield thread now that his player topic is closed? Wijnaldum is not playing as a DM, why judge him as a pure DM, which you seem to be doing by focusing so much on his defensive stats. It was you who first started using his defensive stats to dismiss him after all. In fact you brought those defensive 'failures' up on more than one occasion since you rejoined this discussion. Lallana plays in CM and his defensive stats were worse than Wijnaldum, that is relevant when one is judging if Wijnaldum is our worst midfielder? Unless you judge Lallana differently to Wijnaldum based upon his role, but if you do that then your whole argument based upon comparing stats without taking account of the role they are playing falls apart..

2) and 3) I could use those same stats to argue Can is our worst midfielder and fine as a squad player, he is no better than Wijnaldum in attack, in defence he tackles more but his lack of discipline is costly because of all the senseless free kicks he gives away every single game. Our defence struggles from set-pieces so this makes him a real liability because of how often he tackles, especially against teams that play with a low block and rely on those set pieces for creating chances. If you add to that all the evidence for his lack of effort, his lack of running, his lack of tactical discipline, his lack of game intelligence, and his dawdling on the ball then simply put he is far from being at a elite level.

My point being that constantly criticising Wijnaldum in a vacuum while ignoring the real issue with our midfield really adds nothing to the conversation. The evidence is there for all to see that Wijnaldum performed perfectly well as a first team player last season when he had a player like Lallana next to him, with Coutinho likely to feature more in midfield this season then it becomes pretty hard to argue that he wouldn't be effective with Coutinho playing next to him and then our so called midfield problem at least partly solves itself. Attack wise we are creating enough chances anyway this season, that isn't the reason we are not winning all our games. Given that doesn't it make more sense to focus on the real reason why the defensive side midfield isn't working that well? Because I don't think you can argue it is solely because Wijnaldum doesn't tackle as much as Can, or intercept as much as Henderson.

[Lastrador]

Fair play to you for realising straight away on re-watching that your recollection of events was a little distorted. I don't think anyone sticking up for Wijnaldum is suggesting he is perfect or completely free from blame at all times but it does seem he is a bit of a scapegoat for problems we have in midfield.

It just shows how our mind can play tricks on us I guess, Can is well liked for obvious reasons so his catalogue of errors for that goal get overlooked and Wijnaldum's mistake gets amplified until he is at fault for the goal. I am not trying to point a finger at you at all because you seem very reasonable, and you are right that if Wijnaldum had reacted faster he might have prevented the issues caused by Can's lack of discipline. I just though it perfectly illustrates what seems to be going on here with some people. Emotions colour our memory and perception, we are not computers after all.

Yeah to be fair to me (and I love being fair to me) it wasn't that distorted from reality just incomplete  .

Fair play on the rest of the post, I'm not someone who comes to criticize players, I'm usually defending the likes of Henderson, Mignolet and even our defenders when I'm talking specifically about players. I just think discussing if players are good enough is beside the point and kind of a pointless debate. I like to talk/read about systems and how players fit or don't those rather than Henderson’s turning for example. I don't have a problem with Wijnaldum at all, or with Can or Hendo, but I do feel that as a collective unit they have been leaving our defense rather exposed by making the kind of mistakes I mentioned on the previous post.

[BabuYagu]

1)Looks at the topic title, I thought we were talking about our midfield as a unit, or is this now the lets blame Wijnaldum for all the issues in our midfield thread now that his player topic is closed? Wijnaldum is not playing as a DM, why judge him as a pure DM, which you seem to be doing by focusing so much on his defensive stats. It was you who first started using his defensive stats to dismiss him after all. In fact you brought those defensive 'failures' up on more than one occasion since you rejoined this discussion. Lallana plays in CM and his defensive stats were worse than Wijnaldum, that is relevant when one is judging if Wijnaldum is our worst midfielder? Unless you judge Lallana differently to Wijnaldum based upon his role, but if you do that then your whole argument based upon comparing stats without taking account of the role they are playing falls apart..

2) and 3) I could use those same stats to argue Can is our worst midfielder and fine as a squad player, he is no better than Wijnaldum in attack, in defence he tackles more but his lack of discipline is costly because of all the senseless free kicks he gives away every single game. Our defence struggles from set-pieces so this makes him a real liability because of how often he tackles, especially against teams that play with a low block and rely on those set pieces for creating chances. If you add to that all the evidence for his lack of effort, his lack of running, his lack of tactical discipline, his lack of game intelligence, and his dawdling on the ball then simply put he is far from being at a elite level.

My point being that constantly criticising Wijnaldum in a vacuum while ignoring the real issue with our midfield really adds nothing to the conversation. The evidence is there for all to see that Wijnaldum performed perfectly well as a first team player last season when he had a player like Lallana next to him, with Coutinho likely to feature more in midfield this season then it becomes pretty hard to argue that he wouldn't be effective with Coutinho playing next to him and then our so called midfield problem at least partly solves itself. Attack wise we are creating enough chances anyway this season, that isn't the reason we are not winning all our games. Given that doesn't it make more sense to focus on the real reason why the defensive side midfield isn't working that well? Because I don't think you can argue it is solely because Wijnaldum doesn't tackle as much as Can, or intercept as much as Henderson.

This is the thing that interests me most. Out best performing midfield unit defensively is the one that has the three that are perceived worst defensively statistically.

Which brings me back to my conclusion that defending is more about tactical awareness than tackling and interceptions - the only way players are currently valued. If you are compact as a unit - you defend well. If someone is stepping out of the unit at the wrong time, or not running back into the unit - then you need to start making tackles and interceptions to plug those gaps.

[Chakan]

This is the thing that interests me most. Out best performing midfield unit defensively is the one that has the three that are perceived worst defensively statistically.

Which brings me back to my conclusion that defending is more about tactical awareness than tackling and interceptions - the only way players are currently valued. If you are compact as a unit - you defend well. If someone is stepping out of the unit at the wrong time, or not running back into the unit - then you need to start making tackles and interceptions to plug those gaps.

So then what’s changed this season. It can’t omly be Can not running back.

[SerbianScouser]

So then what’s changed this season. It can’t omly be Can not running back.

No Lallana who is pivotal to how and when we press as a midfield unit.

[Chakan]

No Lallana who is pivotal to how and when we press as a midfield unit.

So one player is out and our midfield falls to pieces? That doesn’t say much for the remaining players does it?

[SerbianScouser]

So one player is out and our midfield falls to pieces? That doesn’t say much for the remaining players does it?

Don't see why it fell to pieces. We were fantastic in some games not so good in few others. Lallana will be back soon until then Phil will improve our midfield in a different kind of way just like he did whenever he played there.

[Chakan]

Don't see why it fell to pieces. We were fantastic in some games not so good in few others. Lallana will be back soon until then Phil will improve our midfield in a different kind of way just like he did whenever he played there.

So why are we conceding so many goals?

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Don't they have a 'successful passing lines closed down' or 'forcing an opponent to pass sideways / back as a unit' stat that is publicly available yet. I'm sure you could put a better name to them. It's something  coaches obviously look out for, I'm pretty sure they have the data available in house.  It's the kind of thing that needs to be compiled by someone who's actually a real coach though to be of practical use, you've got to be able to read the game situations well to classify most of the successful events correctly.

[BabuYagu]

So then what’s changed this season. It can’t omly be Can not running back.

The midfield unit is not playing as a unit yet. No matter who is in there. It does just take one of them to ignore instuctions and suddenly you have gaps that the other two are needing to run around trying to fix - thus creating more gaps themselves - as highlighted in the breakdown of the Sevilla goal. Its actually a good example of why I said Chamberlain is being signed as a CM, yet won't play there until January, if at all this season. His distances would be wrong, he would press at the wrong times, he wouldn't know the triggers thus would be reacting to his team mates rather than reading play.

The trio is quite fluid in that they can all do each others jobs off the ball - yet have clear roles when everyone is in position. But they are all free to press when the triggers are there to do so. They just tuck in for each other and recover quickly.

When you watch our midfield fail though - it's interesting to see what the players do as it highlights their strengths and weaknesses. Gini and Milner look to close up spaces. Henderson and Can get attracted to the ball. Henderson tracks runners best.

When Gini is trying to solve midfield problems he looks at closing up dangerous spaces and can switch off to runners causing him to react late (see Watford 2nd, Sevilla 2nd). This isn't a huge problem. It is almost impossible to both be aware of danger in terms of space and men simultaneously. You tend to be reading one and not the other. It's also likely it comes down to first instruction. If there is a problem protect the zone Henderson vacates.

When Henderson is trying to solve midfield problems he wants to run. Track any runners, if there is no pressure on the ball, do that. He doesn't like to hold his position. As a #6 this can be a problem. Then again coupled with Gini who will be spatially aware for him in midfield that can work. It just needs the 3rd CM to be more like Gini (e.g. Lallana/Milner) and look to get in beside him as quick as possible instead of getting drawn to the ball (Can). It also needs the wide forwards (Mane, Salah) to drop and pick up the runners behind Gini if he is tucking into Henderson's zone. This requires them to read the midfield shape and see when it's getting stretched to breaking point. Salah is doing this, Mane isn't. A good example is the Watford 2nd goal (Gini tucks into the #6 role, Doucoure runs off Mane, Gini reacts late) the Sevilla goal (Gini tucks in for Henderson, Mane hasn't dropped as deep as Salah thus Correa runs off the back of Gini into the space between Lovren & Moreno). Again I think it's tactical instruction. Mane is staying high as the wide striker, Firmino drops into midfield and Moreno is trusted to deal with two players. Harsh, but it really does look that way. Then again if Can gets back in shape, that never happens. So it was a momentary problem that escalated due to inaction.

When Can is trying to solve the problem he goes to the ball. Doesn't track runners and isn't spatially aware. He often (but only this season that I have noticed) decides to simply not bother doing anything. Will stand or walk back into position while the rest of the team is running around fighting fires.

[BabuYagu]

Don't they have a 'successful passing lines closed down' or 'forcing an opponent to pass sideways / back as a unit' stat that is publicly available yet. I'm sure you could put a better name to them. It's something  coaches obviously look out for, I'm pretty sure they have the data available in house.  It's the kind of thing that needs to be compiled by someone who's actually a real coach though to be of practical use, you've got to be able to read the game situations well to classify most of the successful events correctly.

Publicly, no. I suspect clubs do though.

I have seen the data that private analytics people get and know how they produce everything they do. I also know that elite clubs have access to tracab data. Ian Graham of Liverpool actually did a presentation to Barcelona on our work with it. I have no idea what this is because I haven't seen any public stuff that I don't know where the data would come from. Which leads me to believe whatever tracab data is, and lets clubs do, isn't publicly available yet at all.

[BabuYagu]

Completely agree on Can reckless, unnecessary and frankly stupid press further up the pitch as a big part on the goal and the reason why we lost our shape in the first place. That's the first thing that I noticed on re-watch and what I meant with Can being worse than I remember, I should have been more specific though . I recalled Can jogging/walking back and leaving that huge gap in the midfield for Henderson and Gini to cover, didn't remember why that was though.

I'm more willing to put a larger blame on that goal to Can now but still feel Gini should have done better to close the space between him and the centerbacks, covering the space Henderson vacated trying to cover Can's position, and failing that being more decisive and aware on Correa's run. They're not huge mistakes, and I'm not sure if I would call them mistakes as Can's press clearly was, but it is a recurring problem in our midfield this season, this little instances of payers not being aware or decisive enough to spot the dangers, that kind of add up and we end up conceding goals in positions that we shouldn’t have. I mean we were 2-1 up against Sevilla on that play, what was on Can's mind pressing that high and aggressively in the first place?

Edit: Watching that clip again it seems to me Gini was caught between two minds in trying to cover the gap on the midfield and not leaving our left side exposed. It was a tough decision to be fair and one he was put unnecessarily into but this is the kind of instances we have to get better if we're to play the way Klopp wants us to play, because playing in such a way will always lead to mistakes like Can's, that we have to get better at mitigating.

One thing we are never sure on (but can sometimes reasonably guess) is tactical instructions in certain scenarios. So in this instance for Gini, he has two bad options - but which is right? If seems there are already enough people ball side of the pitch for suggesting that one more would be correct. That striker needs to get by Lovren, with Henderson working hard to get a tackle in also. So while there is threat there, there are at least people dealing with it.

Far-side though we have Correa, their left back (high) who Moreno seems to be aware of based on his position to give him time to get out there. Where is Mane?

So, we have an overload on Moreno if Gini moves towards the ball. Based on everything I have seen this season I think Mane is our striker that stays high. There seems to be some line he stops moving back and stays high against the defenders as a counter threat, likely to stretch them vertically to give us more space to counter in and stopping the line pushing right up on us trapping us in our half. In that sense, I think Gini should worry more about Correa so Moreno doesn't have 2 problems back post.

However - what are the instuctions?

If you look back to the second Watford goal. Arguably this is almost identical for Gini to make that decision. Go back and have a look. So he is nearby a player in midfield. Both Can and Henderson are on the flank ball side. Doucoure ends up attacking the space between Gini & Henderson/Can and scoring. Gini is too late to react to it. Does Klopp speak to him after that and give him pointers on what the right call was there for him? Should he have left that Watford playing thus allowing an overload far-side to be closer to the rest of the midfield to prevent this that space being there for Doucoure to attack? I wonder...

Thus does this create that indecision for Gini? This looks dangerous in front of me, last time I stuck with the man behind me and was late to react it cost us. Should I close the gap with the rest of midfield?

[Johns_Barn]

Keita,Lallana and Coutinho is the ideal midfield imo and the problems are solved.

That'd still require a horrible c*nt behind them just to remind everyobe else what the deal is.

Great post.

I think the skillset is far more important than the assigning specific roles to players.

I think Klopp wants midfielders that can and do, do a bit of everything. That is fine by me but you still need them to have some outstanding at things too.

Coutinho and Lallana are in my view outstanding at creating chances and scoring. Phil is also an outstanding dribbler and passer. Lallana has outstanding ability in tight spaces. If he were a shade quicker he would be a truly elite player.

I am not sure what Henderson is outstanding at other than workrate. Can is not outstanding in any area yet which is not to say that he is not a good player.

Wini is arguably outstanding at receiving the ball under pressure. He is good at the things I expect Dutch players to be.

For me the problem is that you can only ever afford to have one of Wini, Henderson and Can in the first XI in Klopp's system.

I would pick Wini personally, but I can see the arguments for Henderson. Against the dross I can see an argument for Can too.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[LiamG]

put this in the tactic thread and think it belongs here too

Or a more disciplined henderson, he's not been on form really, so it's bound to affect the team and how we defend, midfield is the most important part of a Klopp team, found this interesting quote from Klopp after he dropped bender and went for a gundogan and sahin partnership in a game for Dortmund

"It's not about who plays in defensive midfield," the 45-year-old told Ruhr Nachrichten after the match. "It's about how a team close spaces together.

"I could have asked Chuck Norris and Sven Bender to defend together. Nuri and Ilkay had a few problems at first, but got back into the game well to have a great match. It's a beautiful story.

[clinical]

Name me a team that has won the league without a Defensive midfielder? In either Spain, England, Germany, Italy.

[Chris~]

Defensive midfielder is just a term for deepest midfielder though isn't it? Pirlo, busquets, carrick, kante/drinkwater, alonso, matic, etc. Are different players with different strengths and weaknesses.

[killer-heels]

Defensive midfielder is just a term for deepest midfielder though isn't it? Pirlo, busquets, carrick, kante/drinkwater, alonso, matic, etc. Are different players with different strengths and weaknesses.

Indeed. Some people seem to be arguing about different players. Some people have put Weigl and N’zonzi in the same category.

[JackWard33]

Defensive midfielder is just a term for deepest midfielder though isn't it? Pirlo, busquets, carrick, kante/drinkwater, alonso, matic, etc. Are different players with different strengths and weaknesses.

Yes. Thank you for posting this. Entire debate is miscast

[clinical]

Defensive midfielder is just a term for deepest midfielder though isn't it? Pirlo, busquets, carrick, kante/drinkwater, alonso, matic, etc. Are different players with different strengths and weaknesses.

In a way yes. But what it means is someone who is good and clever defensively. Alonso was very underrated for this too. All you mention are better defensively than what we have. Bar drinkwater any of those improve or would have improved us.

[Keita Success]

I've only just come round to this idea of thinking, but a defensive midfielder, who's great on the ball, is an absolute necessity. All the top teams who play the same/similar formation to us have one. 

City - Fernandinho, United - Matic, Real Madrid - Casemiro, Barca - Busquets, etc.

Above are all very good footballers, who can defend. Henderson, for me, is certainly some way behind these players.

I know these are clubs with a bigger budget than us, but all of these were acquired relatively cheap (even Matic, I'd argue), or through their academy.

[JackWard33]

In a way yes. But what it means is someone who is good and clever defensively. Alonso was very underrated for this too. All you mention are better defensively than what we have. Bar drinkwater any of those improve or would have improved us.

But Alonso has never played as a single pivot he's always had a CM partner
If you put Alonso in our set up he'd be better on the ball of course but he'd really really struggle defensively - it would be ugly to be honest
The primary reason Henderson and Fernandinho play there for Klopp and pep is mobility. It's a fucking hard role to play 

[rojo para la vida]

The best midfielder I've seen in a red shirt since last season was in the post season friendly in Australia. The trouble is he is retired and 37 years of age. We desperately need something 75% as good as him.

[Chris~]

But Alonso has never played as a single pivot he's always had a CM partner
If you put Alonso in our set up he'd be better on the ball of course but he'd really really struggle defensively - it would be ugly to be honest
The primary reason Henderson and Fernandinho play there for Klopp and pep is mobility. It's a fucking hard role to play

Played there a few times for Bayern didn't he? Bit different though when you have a massive talent advantage over the rest of the league.

[Chris~]

In a way yes. But what it means is someone who is good and clever defensively. Alonso was very underrated for this too. All you mention are better defensively than what we have. Bar drinkwater any of those improve or would have improved us.

The thought of pirlo trying to stop counters just makes me laugh. He'd never be able to cover the spaces we leave.

[Coolie High]

But Alonso has never played as a single pivot he's always had a CM partner
If you put Alonso in our set up he'd be better on the ball of course but he'd really really struggle defensively - it would be ugly to be honest
The primary reason Henderson and Fernandinho play there for Klopp and pep is mobility. It's a fucking hard role to play

As ugly as 13/14?

It could work  but i agree with your general point.

[JackWard33]

Played there a few times for Bayern didn't he? Bit different though when you have a massive talent advantage over the rest of the league.

Yeah you might be right thinking about it.
I'll stick to my guns on the idea of putting a prime Alonso in our set up as the '6' though would
People can go watch the few games at the start of the 14/15 season when Gerrard tried to play there when father time had caught up with him
You need a ridiculously mobile defensively aware player there or it gets ugly fast. 

[JackWard33]

As ugly as 13/14?

It could work  but i agree with your general point.

so to the broader point ... I'm not really sure why people see the DM spot as the problem in our team (apart from the anti Henderson feeling obviously) given the requirements of the system

Can and Henderson are 2 of the better suited players to the role in the league in this set up in a position that's VERY tough to play (better than someone like Matic for example who would struggle in this set up)
And when you look at the goals we're conceding and the games we're playing - we're really not getting caught on the counter attack or seeing big holes in our midfield (like we did in 13/14 or the beginning of 14/15 for example). We're actually tough to get shots against and its tough to get into our final third.
So I'm not sure I quite get why this position is the problem defensively?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

so to the broader point ... I'm not really sure why people see the DM spot as the problem in our team (apart from the anti Henderson feeling obviously) given the requirements of the system

Can and Henderson are 2 of the better suited players to the role in the league in this set up in a position that's VERY tough to play (better than someone like Matic for example who would struggle in this set up)
And when you look at the goals we're conceding and the games we're playing - we're really not getting caught on the counter attack or seeing big holes in our midfield (like we did in 13/14 or the beginning of 14/15 for example). We're actually tough to get shots against and its tough to get into our final third.
So I'm not sure I quite get why this position is the problem defensively?

We've conceded three goals in our last three games which you could attribute to holes/inaction in that defensive midfield zone.

And that's without getting into the City farce when De Bruyne had the freedom of the pitch to play through balls in behind our defence.

It wasn't a particular problem last season but for whatever reason - Henderson's poor form undoubtedly being one of them - it most certainly is this campaign.

You're choosing to ignore it because you can never bring yourself to criticise Henderson.

[JackWard33]

We've conceded three goals in our last three games which you could attribute to holes/inaction in that defensive midfield zone.

And that's without getting into the City farce when De Bruyne had the freedom of the pitch to play through balls in behind our defence.

It wasn't a particular problem last season but for whatever reason - Henderson's poor form undoubtedly being one of them - it most certainly is this campaign.

You're choosing to ignore it because you can never bring yourself to criticise Henderson.

Christ mate give it a rest. I quite literally in type criticised him in my reply to the last time you posted this to me. He hasn't started the season well - if you want to discuss Henderson there's a thread for it (although maybe its locked as it turned into utter chutney ... let's not do the same here eh?)
The discussion is about whether a different kind of deepest lying midfielder could improve our team or not .. not how much we hate or love Henderson.... there are obvious problems in this set up in this position whoever plays there for us

[BabuYagu]

Name me a team that has won the league without a Defensive midfielder? In either Spain, England, Germany, Italy.

A natural DM? Or a converted CM/AM?

If the former, lots. Henderson is a converted DM, just as Pirlo & Fernandinho were for example. If you don't think he is good enough is a different question - but that is still the role he plays.

The Hamburg side that Keegan joined didn't have a natural DM for example and they dominated German football for years. In fact Germany football will be littered with them until fairly recently as they played with a sweeper who would step forward.

A lot of the great Brazil sides don't have what we would call a natural defensive midfielder. Sure, they started in that position on the pitch but they were midfielders like Henderson who played further forward. Falcão moved back to DM due to his intelligence and ability to dictate play from deep. Players like Falcão, who one of the Roma players said when he joined he was perhaps the best player at the club at everything. His Roma side then won stuff in Italy despite the fierce competition there at the time with the likes of Platini's Juventus, Maradona's Napoli etc. Usually for the great Brazil sides, a guy like Falcão would be next to a runner like Henderson who would do his leg work for him. This tended to be a more box to box player. This wouldn't be too dissimilar to the setup Rafa had with Xabi & Mascherano - although not on the same level as that Brazil side of course.

The question needs you to define what you mean by DM. Is it someone who plays in that position on the pitch? Is it a particular role anchoring the midfield - because some of them are roaming destroyers, some deep playmakers? Vieira wasn't really a DM in my eyes for example, Petit was for Arsenal. But many list Vieira when they talk DM's. Same as Roy Keane. Which means if you loosely just categorize certain players as DM's and exclude others, it becomes impossible to answer as the question is "what sides won anything without what I personally would consider a DM"

[LallanaInPyjamas]

The discussion is about whether a different kind of deepest lying midfielder could improve our team or not .. not how much we hate or love Henderson.... there are obvious problems in this set up in this position whoever plays there for us

The fact that you continually associate Henderson in the same breath as Fernandinho says it all for me really.

He's in a different stratosphere to Henderson. As is Kante. Both are making more combined tackles + interceptions per match with at least a 10%+ superior pass completion rate. Both are more adept in the tackle, both read the play better to intercept, neither are turned by opponents as easily and both are more comfortable receiving possession in tight spaces. These are all fundamental qualities for a defensive midfielder.

The only thing Henderson really has on either is a superior passing range to Kante and more height than both, but even then I'm not convinced he's strong enough in the air for this to really work in his favour, as it does for Can.

Matic is also clearly superior, albeit I agree that he wouldn't look quite as good for us as he did for Chelsea and does for United. But he's not the slouch you paint him as. Laterally he can cover ground to a good standard and once he has his opponent in a jostle, he rarely loses it. Vertically, sure, I think he'd struggle to match Henderson's work rate, but then I'd happily sacrifice that for someone with a bit more discipline off the ball and more composure on it. He's also not been playing in a double pivot every match this season - he holds while Pogba roams to support their front four. He's doing such a good job that Mourinho has felt comfortable sacrificing Herrera.

Perhaps if we had a truly top DM, Klopp would feel the same about Wijnaldum, who I know we both have big doubts about what he's actually bringing to the team. Personally, I see him as a platform type figure in the side who can do a bit of everything but nothing particularly well. The exact type of player you dispense to the bench in a well-functioning side, only bringing in against the big boys for a bit more stability in the middle.

A "different kind of deep lying midfielder" - i.e. a better one - could allow us an additional attacker on the pitch to put teams to bed. Instead we've got two average to decent midfielders in there - Henderson and Wijnaldum - largely doing the work one man could. And that's just a waste.