Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1077214 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1400 on: July 29, 2018, 12:59:38 pm »
Have to disagree with that. In 14/15 we had the same style as previously, but we were lacking the crucial component for what makes Rodgers brand of possession football work - strikers who can make their own goals. Without that, it just became sterile possession, and without the threat of an end product, it became more calamitous when teams scored a goal against us. This was somewhat alleviated when we switched to the 3-4-2-1, but you could almost see some of the same issues last season at Celtic when Rodgers' first choice strikers were unavailable at several points due to injury.

People forget that we beat Klopp's Dortmund in the preseason 4-0 at Anfield, with Sturridge up front, and all looked rosy. Then with Sturridge getting injured and Balotelli being the only solid first team striker option, things ended up being pretty crappy on the attack front - but the style of football didn't change. It was still possession-based, still high-pressure defending, still a high line. But without those strikers who can make their own goals, the system was always going to be incomplete.

The major difference now - apart from having five good players who can take the striker spot - is that we don't need players who can make their own goals, as much. Gegenpressing is the playmaker, so in 60% of our games, the system creates the goals (to an extent). So that leaves about 40% of the games where we need players who can make their own goals. We've fallen own on that under Klopp, to be fair, in all seasons so far.

For Rodgers though, the system wasn't about creating goals - it was about getting the goalmakers on the ball near the box and letting them do their thing, probably 90% of the time.

But there was no way that the Rodgers team played any differently without Suarez and Sturridge than with them, in terms of style and game principles. The problem was there was a much higher reliance on individual goal creation under Rodgers than there is under Klopp.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1401 on: July 29, 2018, 01:07:12 pm »
If his entire argument is that you've to be as fast as Mane and Salah or be the exact type of players they're to be successful as a wide player, then he's either smoking stuff or is lost in the clouds, somewhere in his own world.
There's a school of thought that without pace you can't play wide in this Klopp team but thing is it's about creating space which you can do by dribbling as well.

Shaq may not be as quick as Mane and Salah (though not a slouch either) but he goes past by people which is why he can play there for us. The likes of Lallana and Bobby struggle there because they can't get away from people by dribbling nor do they have pace to attack big spaces.

Pace is important to play wide in a Klopp team but if you can dribble or create space some other way it will work too imo.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1402 on: July 29, 2018, 01:16:11 pm »
Have to disagree with that. In 14/15 we had the same style as previously, but we were lacking the crucial component for what makes Rodgers brand of possession football work - strikers who can make their own goals. Without that, it just became sterile possession, and without the threat of an end product, it became more calamitous when teams scored a goal against us. This was somewhat alleviated when we switched to the 3-4-2-1, but you could almost see some of the same issues last season at Celtic when Rodgers' first choice strikers were unavailable at several points due to injury.

People forget that we beat Klopp's Dortmund in the preseason 4-0 at Anfield, with Sturridge up front, and all looked rosy. Then with Sturridge getting injured and Balotelli being the only solid first team striker option, things ended up being pretty crappy on the attack front - but the style of football didn't change. It was still possession-based, still high-pressure defending, still a high line. But without those strikers who can make their own goals, the system was always going to be incomplete.

The major difference now - apart from having five good players who can take the striker spot - is that we don't need players who can make their own goals, as much. Gegenpressing is the playmaker, so in 60% of our games, the system creates the goals (to an extent). So that leaves about 40% of the games where we need players who can make their own goals. We've fallen own on that under Klopp, to be fair, in all seasons so far.

For Rodgers though, the system wasn't about creating goals - it was about getting the goalmakers on the ball near the box and letting them do their thing, probably 90% of the time.

But there was no way that the Rodgers team played any differently without Suarez and Sturridge than with them, in terms of style and game principles. The problem was there was a much higher reliance on individual goal creation under Rodgers than there is under Klopp.
I see what you mean, excellent post. Let me rephrase a bit - it seems to me that if you're relying on players who can basically do everything without help, then you may have a style, but you don't really have much of a system. That doesn't make it wrong, or a bad approach, but it does mean your style falls to pieces without those players. And that's the contrast - Klopp, like Benitez, has much more of a system. It's not going to fall apart in the same way with a couple of players missing.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1403 on: July 29, 2018, 01:47:58 pm »
If his entire argument is that you've to be as fast as Mane and Salah or be the exact type of players they're to be successful as a wide player, then he's either smoking stuff or is lost in the clouds, somewhere in his own world.

Nah that's not my point. My point was maybe a bit pedantic but that to be the same profile of player you have to have the same profile. I don't believe Shaqiri has the same profile as either Mane or Salah.  Plenty of wide players are successful that do not operate like Mane or Salah. The most successful obviously being the current Messi (2018 not 2012), who actually I think is a lot more similar in profile to Shaqiri.

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1404 on: July 29, 2018, 01:48:56 pm »
I see what you mean, excellent post. Let me rephrase a bit - it seems to me that if you're relying on players who can basically do everything without help, then you may have a style, but you don't really have much of a system. That doesn't make it wrong, or a bad approach, but it does mean your style falls to pieces without those players. And that's the contrast - Klopp, like Benitez, has much more of a system. It's not going to fall apart in the same way with a couple of players missing.

I'll disagree again :D

"System" in football is the set of principles of attack and defence through which your players play the game. The principles are divided into principles of attack and principles of defence. The principles of attack are - Penetration, Depth, Width, Mobility, Creativity/Improvisation, Surprise/Counterattack. The principles of defence are - Pressure, Cover, Balance, Compactness, Consolidation and Communication. Every team, coach, player and manager operates under those 12 principles, depending on their particular tactical bent. A coach/manager like Hodgson, for example, is very much a Penetration+Consolidation manager - i.e. those are the main two attack and defence principles they base their systems on. A coach like Guardiola, by contrast, emphasizes Width+Pressure. All principles SHOULD be coached and operational, but they put priority on different ones depending on who has the ball. The principles are also filtered through the four moments of the game: Attacking Possession - Transition to Defence - Defending - Transition to Attack. Add formation preferences to this, and you have a system So in other words, a "System" is made up of:

Principles of Attack
Principles of Defence
Four Moments of the Game
Formation

For Rodgers, the game has always been about Mobility and Improvisation in attack, then Pressure and Cover in defence. The other principles are there, but these are the main ones you can see in all of his teams. The problem, obviously, is that Improvisation almost 100% relies on the quality of the attackers. It doesn't mean the system falls apart when Improvisation isn't there, because the other elements remain. But it makes it harder for your system to be effective. Similarly, Klopp's principles are "Pressure" in defence and "Surprise/Counter-attack" in attack. Counter-attack requires great speed. When we don't/didn't have speed up top, the system wasn't falling apart - it just wasn't as effective (the first season is the best example of this). When we added Mane, the system didn't change, but it became much more effective. When we added Salah, though, it jumped a massive level. But again, the system doesn't change if neither of them are there - the players still play the formation, they still play the same principles, they still operate under the same four "cues" of the game. But the system remains regardless, unless Klopp makes a fundamental change to the principles in light of personnel issues. But most coaches, at all levels, don't do that. Instead, they try to recruit for the system. For Klopp, this means speed and aggression. For Rodgers, it meant high level technique and either physical or tactical strength in the attack. This is why he favours a mobile target man up front - usually a strong, tall player like Graham, Benteke, Lambert, Dembele, or Edouard. But that's because strong, mobile targets can create their own goals, through strength and height. Without that, he needs players of the technical level of Suarez or Sturridge (or Sterling to a lesser extent) who can improvise and create goals out of situations that look secure for the opposition defence.

For Klopp, the first principle is "Pressure". That's the overriding guiding principle of his whole outlook on the game. That means that players who aren't always the highest level technical players can function really well in his systems, because the first principle of the whole thing doesn't require ability on the ball - it requires physical qualities like agility and stamina and speed, and mental resilience. This means that Klopp can do better with bringing players in (lower technical standard than Rodgers demanded), and can make his system work regardless of the technical or creative ability of his players. But it comes with a price, as we know - when teams don't use the ball, don't possess it, and don't worry about getting forward to attack, Klopp's system can hit it's limit. At that point, Klopp is then looking for the same thing Rodgers was - players who can create their own goals. But that doesn't mean there is no system, or that it's "all over the place". There is no perfect system. Every system has a limit, either self-imposed, or imposed by the opposition. For Rodgers, the system was consistent throughout both his time at Liverpool, and his career in general - possess the ball, move from position, get the ball to the goalmakers and goalscorers and let them do their thing. When there were no goalmakers, though, the system didn't "fall apart", nor did it change. It just hit its limit. This is no different to Guardiola, who - if you ever saw that Sky clip with Henry - tells his players he can get them to the attacking third, but after that, it's all on them. Take all the great goalscorers away from Guardiola, and they'd still play "Tiki-Taka" (and I know he hated that phrase, but that's what we call that style now whether he likes it or not :D). They just wouldn't be as effective.

For Klopp, the system is dependent more on physical qualities than technical ones. But like every other manager's system, it has limits. But when it hits those limits, the system doesn't necessarily fall apart, or cease to exist - it just needs a tweak. And that was the same for Rodgers. And any manager who isn't Harry Redknapp, for that matter :D
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1405 on: July 29, 2018, 01:50:04 pm »
Nah that's not my point. My point was maybe a bit pedantic but that to be the same profile of player you have to have the same profile. I don't believe Shaqiri has the same profile as either Mane or Salah.  Plenty of wide players are successful that do not operate like Mane or Salah. The most successful obviously being the current Messi (2018 not 2012), who actually I think is a lot more similar in profile to Shaqiri.

What profile are you talking about?

Also, we could get more specific and say that Mane isn't the same profile as Salah, and vice versa.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1406 on: July 29, 2018, 02:09:46 pm »
I'll disagree again :D

"System" in football is the set of principles of attack and defence through which your players play the game. The principles are divided into principles of attack and principles of defence. The principles of attack are - Penetration, Depth, Width, Mobility, Creativity/Improvisation, Surprise/Counterattack. The principles of defence are - Pressure, Cover, Balance, Compactness, Consolidation and Communication. Every team, coach, player and manager operates under those 12 principles, depending on their particular tactical bent. A coach/manager like Hodgson, for example, is very much a Penetration+Consolidation manager - i.e. those are the main two attack and defence principles they base their systems on. A coach like Guardiola, by contrast, emphasizes Width+Pressure. All principles SHOULD be coached and operational, but they put priority on different ones depending on who has the ball. The principles are also filtered through the four moments of the game: Attacking Possession - Transition to Defence - Defending - Transition to Attack. Add formation preferences to this, and you have a system So in other words, a "System" is made up of:

Principles of Attack
Principles of Defence
Four Moments of the Game
Formation

For Rodgers, the game has always been about Mobility and Improvisation in attack, then Pressure and Cover in defence. The other principles are there, but these are the main ones you can see in all of his teams. The problem, obviously, is that Improvisation almost 100% relies on the quality of the attackers. It doesn't mean the system falls apart when Improvisation isn't there, because the other elements remain. But it makes it harder for your system to be effective. Similarly, Klopp's principles are "Pressure" in defence and "Surprise/Counter-attack" in attack. Counter-attack requires great speed. When we don't/didn't have speed up top, the system wasn't falling apart - it just wasn't as effective (the first season is the best example of this). When we added Mane, the system didn't change, but it became much more effective. When we added Salah, though, it jumped a massive level. But again, the system doesn't change if neither of them are there - the players still play the formation, they still play the same principles, they still operate under the same four "cues" of the game. But the system remains regardless, unless Klopp makes a fundamental change to the principles in light of personnel issues. But most coaches, at all levels, don't do that. Instead, they try to recruit for the system. For Klopp, this means speed and aggression. For Rodgers, it meant high level technique and either physical or tactical strength in the attack. This is why he favours a mobile target man up front - usually a strong, tall player like Graham, Benteke, Lambert, Dembele, or Edouard. But that's because strong, mobile targets can create their own goals, through strength and height. Without that, he needs players of the technical level of Suarez or Sturridge (or Sterling to a lesser extent) who can improvise and create goals out of situations that look secure for the opposition defence.

For Klopp, the first principle is "Pressure". That's the overriding guiding principle of his whole outlook on the game. That means that players who aren't always the highest level technical players can function really well in his systems, because the first principle of the whole thing doesn't require ability on the ball - it requires physical qualities like agility and stamina and speed, and mental resilience. This means that Klopp can do better with bringing players in (lower technical standard than Rodgers demanded), and can make his system work regardless of the technical or creative ability of his players. But it comes with a price, as we know - when teams don't use the ball, don't possess it, and don't worry about getting forward to attack, Klopp's system can hit it's limit. At that point, Klopp is then looking for the same thing Rodgers was - players who can create their own goals. But that doesn't mean there is no system, or that it's "all over the place". There is no perfect system. Every system has a limit, either self-imposed, or imposed by the opposition. For Rodgers, the system was consistent throughout both his time at Liverpool, and his career in general - possess the ball, move from position, get the ball to the goalmakers and goalscorers and let them do their thing. When there were no goalmakers, though, the system didn't "fall apart", nor did it change. It just hit its limit. This is no different to Guardiola, who - if you ever saw that Sky clip with Henry - tells his players he can get them to the attacking third, but after that, it's all on them. Take all the great goalscorers away from Guardiola, and they'd still play "Tiki-Taka" (and I know he hated that phrase, but that's what we call that style now whether he likes it or not :D). They just wouldn't be as effective.

For Klopp, the system is dependent more on physical qualities than technical ones. But like every other manager's system, it has limits. But when it hits those limits, the system doesn't necessarily fall apart, or cease to exist - it just needs a tweak. And that was the same for Rodgers. And any manager who isn't Harry Redknapp, for that matter :D

Excellent explanation.

And this has me thinking Shaqiri and Fekir were considered for a role that did not exist in 2017/18.  I think Shaqiri is going to be used more as a no.10 in the form of Sneijder (Inter 2009/10) than as a wide player in the system we play now.  That's not to say it's Mourinho's turgid snidey brand of football, it's still Jurgen's principles of pressure and surprise in counter-attack but I think Inter in 2009/10 were built largely on those principles too. But with Shaqiri operating as a support point at no.10 and we realy a little less on speed than has been the case in the past.
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Offline DanA

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1407 on: July 29, 2018, 02:16:03 pm »
What profile are you talking about?

Also, we could get more specific and say that Mane isn't the same profile as Salah, and vice versa.

The underlying profile of player I am talking about are all those skills that Klopp's principles of play demand:
- Work rate and intelligence off the ball
- Stamina to make repeated sprints efforts
- Acceleration AND top speed to hurt opposition on the counter

As an analogy in chess. I see Shaqiri and Firmino as knights and Salah and Mane as bishops. Different profile of players IMO. Shaqiri is made to play in confined spaces, Salah/Mane are made to play in space.
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1408 on: July 29, 2018, 02:19:32 pm »
I'll disagree again :D

"System" in football is the set of principles of attack and defence through which your players play the game. The principles are divided into principles of attack and principles of defence. The principles of attack are - Penetration, Depth, Width, Mobility, Creativity/Improvisation, Surprise/Counterattack. The principles of defence are - Pressure, Cover, Balance, Compactness, Consolidation and Communication. Every team, coach, player and manager operates under those 12 principles, depending on their particular tactical bent. A coach/manager like Hodgson, for example, is very much a Penetration+Consolidation manager - i.e. those are the main two attack and defence principles they base their systems on. A coach like Guardiola, by contrast, emphasizes Width+Pressure. All principles SHOULD be coached and operational, but they put priority on different ones depending on who has the ball. The principles are also filtered through the four moments of the game: Attacking Possession - Transition to Defence - Defending - Transition to Attack. Add formation preferences to this, and you have a system So in other words, a "System" is made up of:

Principles of Attack
Principles of Defence
Four Moments of the Game
Formation

For Rodgers, the game has always been about Mobility and Improvisation in attack, then Pressure and Cover in defence. The other principles are there, but these are the main ones you can see in all of his teams. The problem, obviously, is that Improvisation almost 100% relies on the quality of the attackers. It doesn't mean the system falls apart when Improvisation isn't there, because the other elements remain. But it makes it harder for your system to be effective. Similarly, Klopp's principles are "Pressure" in defence and "Surprise/Counter-attack" in attack. Counter-attack requires great speed. When we don't/didn't have speed up top, the system wasn't falling apart - it just wasn't as effective (the first season is the best example of this). When we added Mane, the system didn't change, but it became much more effective. When we added Salah, though, it jumped a massive level. But again, the system doesn't change if neither of them are there - the players still play the formation, they still play the same principles, they still operate under the same four "cues" of the game. But the system remains regardless, unless Klopp makes a fundamental change to the principles in light of personnel issues. But most coaches, at all levels, don't do that. Instead, they try to recruit for the system. For Klopp, this means speed and aggression. For Rodgers, it meant high level technique and either physical or tactical strength in the attack. This is why he favours a mobile target man up front - usually a strong, tall player like Graham, Benteke, Lambert, Dembele, or Edouard. But that's because strong, mobile targets can create their own goals, through strength and height. Without that, he needs players of the technical level of Suarez or Sturridge (or Sterling to a lesser extent) who can improvise and create goals out of situations that look secure for the opposition defence.

For Klopp, the first principle is "Pressure". That's the overriding guiding principle of his whole outlook on the game. That means that players who aren't always the highest level technical players can function really well in his systems, because the first principle of the whole thing doesn't require ability on the ball - it requires physical qualities like agility and stamina and speed, and mental resilience. This means that Klopp can do better with bringing players in (lower technical standard than Rodgers demanded), and can make his system work regardless of the technical or creative ability of his players. But it comes with a price, as we know - when teams don't use the ball, don't possess it, and don't worry about getting forward to attack, Klopp's system can hit it's limit. At that point, Klopp is then looking for the same thing Rodgers was - players who can create their own goals. But that doesn't mean there is no system, or that it's "all over the place". There is no perfect system. Every system has a limit, either self-imposed, or imposed by the opposition. For Rodgers, the system was consistent throughout both his time at Liverpool, and his career in general - possess the ball, move from position, get the ball to the goalmakers and goalscorers and let them do their thing. When there were no goalmakers, though, the system didn't "fall apart", nor did it change. It just hit its limit. This is no different to Guardiola, who - if you ever saw that Sky clip with Henry - tells his players he can get them to the attacking third, but after that, it's all on them. Take all the great goalscorers away from Guardiola, and they'd still play "Tiki-Taka" (and I know he hated that phrase, but that's what we call that style now whether he likes it or not :D). They just wouldn't be as effective.

For Klopp, the system is dependent more on physical qualities than technical ones. But like every other manager's system, it has limits. But when it hits those limits, the system doesn't necessarily fall apart, or cease to exist - it just needs a tweak. And that was the same for Rodgers. And any manager who isn't Harry Redknapp, for that matter :D

Just got this one into the archives, PoP. It was informative reading this, thanks for this post.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1409 on: July 29, 2018, 02:20:46 pm »
The underlying profile of player I am talking about are all those skills that Klopp's principles of play demand:
- Work rate and intelligence off the ball
- Stamina to make repeated sprints efforts
- Acceleration AND top speed to hurt opposition on the counter


As an analogy in chess. I see Shaqiri and Firmino as knights and Salah and Mane as bishops. Different profile of players IMO. Shaqiri is made to play in confined spaces, Salah/Mane are made to play in space.

Ah right, now I see where you're coming from. Yeah I can see why you would have had reservations about Shaqiri. What I think, though, is that the first and second points feed off each other - improve his stamina, and his workrate will improve. His intelligence is largely locked in, but given how seamlessly he seemed to fit in last night, I think we can at least give him the benefit of the doubt and say he understands what Klopp wants on a tactical level. Obviously, acceleration and top speed is innate, and as the saying goes, "you can't coach speed", but my take on it is that given how much time we spend in the opposition half and around the opposition penalty area, his acceleration will be more important than his top speed. I don't think Shaqiri will be the go-to player when we're attacking from deep. I think his ability to get past a player in small spaces will be where we see his worth.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1410 on: July 29, 2018, 02:25:47 pm »
Excellent explanation.

And this has me thinking Shaqiri and Fekir were considered for a role that did not exist in 2017/18.  I think Shaqiri is going to be used more as a no.10 in the form of Sneijder (Inter 2009/10) than as a wide player in the system we play now.  That's not to say it's Mourinho's turgid snidey brand of football, it's still Jurgen's principles of pressure and surprise in counter-attack but I think Inter in 2009/10 were built largely on those principles too. But with Shaqiri operating as a support point at no.10 and we realy a little less on speed than has been the case in the past.

For Klopp, counter-pressing is the playmaker. He doesn't rely on a specialist 10, although we use certain variants at times. He likes ball-carriers, more than pure playmakers. And I'd say both Shaqiri and Fekir were ear-marked to be ball-carriers. Not as No. 10 or playmakers.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1411 on: July 29, 2018, 02:42:49 pm »
For Klopp, counter-pressing is the playmaker. He doesn't rely on a specialist 10, although we use certain variants at times. He likes ball-carriers, more than pure playmakers. And I'd say both Shaqiri and Fekir were ear-marked to be ball-carriers. Not as No. 10 or playmakers.

See I disagree. I mean I agree that we didn’t play with traditional no.10 and that counter pressing is our creativity but I think we always played with support points that facilitated ball movement around the runners.

The supports points IMO were Firmino, Coutinho, Gini and Henderson and the runners were Salah, Mane, Oxlade, Robinson and A.Arnold.

For me we had a slight imbalance of too many support players and not enough runners to facilitate the way Klopp plays.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1412 on: July 29, 2018, 03:06:34 pm »
Ah right, now I see where you're coming from. Yeah I can see why you would have had reservations about Shaqiri. What I think, though, is that the first and second points feed off each other - improve his stamina, and his workrate will improve. His intelligence is largely locked in, but given how seamlessly he seemed to fit in last night, I think we can at least give him the benefit of the doubt and say he understands what Klopp wants on a tactical level. Obviously, acceleration and top speed is innate, and as the saying goes, "you can't coach speed", but my take on it is that given how much time we spend in the opposition half and around the opposition penalty area, his acceleration will be more important than his top speed. I don't think Shaqiri will be the go-to player when we're attacking from deep. I think his ability to get past a player in small spaces will be where we see his worth.

He may not be the go-to player, but he can carry the ball from deep. If we have around 5-10 situations on an average with counter-attack situations (not sure about the exact number, just speculating) and if he manages his quick runs around those situations, he can help our counter-attacks as well. And he has an eye for quick passes. He may not be like Salah, as the last man during transitions, but he can certainly do the Mane role, link up with others and carry the ball forward from deep. And as you say, stamina can be improved.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1413 on: July 29, 2018, 03:10:15 pm »
See I disagree. I mean I agree that we didn’t play with traditional no.10 and that counter pressing is our creativity but I think we always played with support points that facilitated ball movement around the runners.

The supports points IMO were Firmino, Coutinho, Gini and Henderson and the runners were Salah, Mane, Oxlade, Robinson and A.Arnold.

For me we had a slight imbalance of too many support players and not enough runners to facilitate the way Klopp plays.

Actually our points are not far off.

My point is that none of the support points were No. 10s though. Coutinho tried to be, especially against teams that sat deep, but it didn't work that well for us to have one focal point or No. 10 to create. Post Coutinho, we had a much better record overall. There were even stats saying how we were better after Coutinho in a number of aspects.

I don't think we'll use Shaqiri as a 10, but I think he can be a ball-carrier as well as a player who can link play. He's one of those who can do either. Fekir could do both as well.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 03:11:53 pm by PoetryInMotion »

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1414 on: July 29, 2018, 03:15:55 pm »
He may not be the go-to player, but he can carry the ball from deep. If we have around 5-10 situations on an average with counter-attack situations (not sure about the exact number, just speculating) and if he manages his quick runs around those situations, he can help our counter-attacks as well. And he has an eye for quick passes. He may not be like Salah, as the last man during transitions, but he can certainly do the Mane role, link up with others and carry the ball forward from deep. And as you say, stamina can be improved.

He can carry the ball from deep, but what I was saying was that in terms of what Salah or Mane offer with their penetration behind the defence, we probably won't see that role from Shaqiri if Dan is right about his top speed. Although for me, there's enough evidence that he can do that.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1415 on: July 29, 2018, 03:30:20 pm »
Is it possible to share the #10 positionally? As in Mane and Shaqiri interchanging in the middle and on the left wing, with the two of them offering different options in both areas (e.g. cutting in from the left versus breaking into the centre).

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1416 on: July 29, 2018, 03:33:58 pm »
Is it possible to share the #10 positionally? As in Mane and Shaqiri interchanging in the middle and on the left wing, with the two of them offering different options in both areas (e.g. cutting in from the left versus breaking into the centre).

#10 isn't a position so much as it is a role. You can play the #10 from any channel on the pitch as long as its behind the striker line and ahead of the  midfield line
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1417 on: July 29, 2018, 03:43:38 pm »
See I disagree. I mean I agree that we didn’t play with traditional no.10 and that counter pressing is our creativity but I think we always played with support points that facilitated ball movement around the runners.

The supports points IMO were Firmino, Coutinho, Gini and Henderson and the runners were Salah, Mane, Oxlade, Robinson and A.Arnold.

For me we had a slight imbalance of too many support players and not enough runners to facilitate the way Klopp plays.

Not concerned about balance at this point mate.  There will always be places of weakness in any team.  And we really have not seen Klopp 3.0 yet (with the new players integrated).  Not sure anyone would have predicted Salah last year with that magnitude.  Same things can happen again but different players could step up.  Shaq certainly could be one.

The thing about Shaqiri is that he is so good in possession, does not piss the ball away (especially in transition) --- that one of the real dangers to a counter pressing team is getting numbers forward quickly but not getting the ball where it needs to go. 

I am not sure we can really understand how important a player like him can be until we consider how many opponents will find ways to:

1.  Sit in and compress space ---- so final balls, angles and lock picking skills are requisite in a block of eight
2.  Muscle up the red arrows up front leaving room underneath to create space in front of back 4
3.  Stifle attacks when we do have the skills to play one and two touch in transition (def third and into opponents final third in seconds)

Shaqiri can solve these problems plus his set piece delivery is crucial --- with Ox out and Coutinho gone, this is a big asset.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 03:46:35 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1418 on: July 29, 2018, 03:48:18 pm »
We did see him get behind Man Utd defense for Sturridge’s goal so I could be talking bollox. But it’s my opinion that he’s not that quick over distance.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1419 on: July 29, 2018, 03:49:17 pm »
#10 isn't a position so much as it is a role. You can play the #10 from any channel on the pitch as long as its behind the striker line and ahead of the  midfield line

Thanks for the clarification. Do you forsee Mane and Shaqiri sharing that role on the pitch after a fashion, as a way of improving our possession efficacy?

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1420 on: July 29, 2018, 03:54:02 pm »
#10 isn't a position so much as it is a role. You can play the #10 from any channel on the pitch as long as its behind the striker line and ahead of the  midfield line

And if we can say anything about Jurgen is he does not mind forming roles for players that are counter intuitive to the historical typical role players pegged in certain static positions have played previously.  Firmino being a great example. 

I suspect we will see Shaqiri come from a variety places to get people involved and on the end of things - depending upon the set up and tactics of the day. 

One thing, I am not sure where I read this, but we will see much more scoring from midfield this year in the prem as more teams have templates to find ways to win like this.  For example, we will see less teams willing to play with us like Brighton away last year --- so the idea is more compact spaces, much of the play to disrupt backlines might come from midfield runs.  Shaq is certainly someone who can find space, and time.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 01:30:25 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1421 on: July 29, 2018, 04:13:06 pm »
Not concerned about balance at this point mate.  There will always be places of weakness in any team.  And we really have not seen Klopp 3.0 yet (with the new players integrated).  Not sure anyone would have predicted Salah last year with that magnitude.  Same things can happen again but different players could step up.  Shaq certainly could be one.

The thing about Shaqiri is that he is so good in possession, does not piss the ball away (especially in transition) --- that one of the real dangers to a counter pressing team is getting numbers forward quickly but not getting the ball where it needs to go. 

I am not sure we can really understand how important a player like him can be until we consider how many opponents will find ways to:

1.  Sit in and compress space ---- so final balls, angles and lock picking skills are requisite in a block of eight
2.  Muscle up the red arrows up front leaving room underneath to create space in front of back 4
3.  Stifle attacks when we do have the skills to play one and two touch in transition (def third and into opponents final third in seconds)

Shaqiri can solve these problems plus his set piece delivery is crucial --- with Ox out and Coutinho gone, this is a big asset.

I honestly think Shaqiri could be a world class no.10 in the same way that Sniejder was at Inter. I see him as a player that needs the right role though.

I thought at the start of summer Klopp 3.0 would essentially be 2.0 with better suited players. Keita fit the bill, Fabinho and Alisson fit the bill. But IMO Shaqiri and Fekir don’t so much.

I was thinking we’d be after a guy like Leon Bailey to play wide and a player like Angel Correa to back up Firmino. Klopp seemed to have different ideas in attack to what I thought.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1422 on: July 29, 2018, 05:20:18 pm »
Lots of good posts in this discussion on the last couple of pages.

There'd certainly be a drop-off in quality but there's no chance of an identity crisis under Klopp.

The massive difference is that Rodgers' style for the club was totally dependent on those players - therefore without them, there was no style, no system.
Under Klopp, the players look as good as they do because the system brings it out of them. Take them away and we'd still have the same style, even if it weren't quite as effective. Put those players in a different club and they wouldn't look as effective, either.

Good points, but I only partly agree. From a distance it certainly looked like Klopp's Dortmund team suffered an identity crisis in his last season. I think we also saw in the second half of 2016/17 that when key players were missing we to some extent had to go to a temporary plan B to grind out results.

In 14/15 we had the same style as previously, but we were lacking the crucial component for what makes Rodgers brand of possession football work - strikers who can make their own goals. Without that, it just became sterile possession, and without the threat of an end product, it became more calamitous when teams scored a goal against us.

I'd argue a big part of this was that we replaced mobile strikers with static ones. Certainly Balotelli had shown at other clubs he was capable of making his own goals, I'd say the big problem with him for us was that he just wouldn't move without the ball.


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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1423 on: July 29, 2018, 05:23:50 pm »
Lots of good posts in this discussion on the last couple of pages.

Good points, but I only partly agree. From a distance it certainly looked like Klopp's Dortmund team suffered an identity crisis in his last season. I think we also saw in the second half of 2016/17 that when key players were missing we to some extent had to go to a temporary plan B to grind out results.

I'd argue a big part of this was that we replaced mobile strikers with static ones. Certainly Balotelli had shown at other clubs he was capable of making his own goals, I'd say the big problem with him for us was that he just wouldn't move without the ball.

Not a bad point, but what I mean by "making your own goals" is more being good in 1v1s, rather than scoring spectacular goals (which is part of  it, of course). You're right about Balotelli's mobility, but at the same time, he is a special case because he was also so very, very wasteful (6 shots in the 6 yard box, no goals, for example).
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1424 on: July 29, 2018, 06:02:26 pm »
I honestly think Shaqiri could be a world class no.10 in the same way that Sniejder was at Inter. I see him as a player that needs the right role though.

I thought at the start of summer Klopp 3.0 would essentially be 2.0 with better suited players. Keita fit the bill, Fabinho and Alisson fit the bill. But IMO Shaqiri and Fekir don’t so much.

I was thinking we’d be after a guy like Leon Bailey to play wide and a player like Angel Correa to back up Firmino. Klopp seemed to have different ideas in attack to what I thought.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1425 on: July 29, 2018, 06:28:00 pm »
Some right fcuking Mourinho's in here..

I wish some people would just trust Klopp and his staff's judgement on this one...He hasn't got much wrong since he's been here and could play the guy wide or central who knows ?

I think Shaqiri can adapt/change as required by Jurgen and will be more than a useful squad/first XI player.

Focus on what he can bring not what you think he can't.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1426 on: July 29, 2018, 10:04:24 pm »
Some right fcuking Mourinho's in here..

I wish some people would just trust Klopp and his staff's judgement on this one...He hasn't got much wrong since he's been here and could play the guy wide or central who knows ?

I think Shaqiri can adapt/change as required by Jurgen and will be more than a useful squad/first XI player.

Focus on what he can bring not what you think he can't.

Agreed. As long as we play on the deck or in behind, I don't think it makes much difference if we have any of Firmino, Mane, Salah, or Shaqiri playing as our #9 or #10. They'll all interchange in possession anyway. My only question if it makes a difference for counterpressing? 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 01:13:32 am by wemmick »

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1427 on: July 30, 2018, 01:55:44 am »
Err my point was we don't have to buy Mbappe type of players to have success. And I am not saying that we should replace the front three, I said we can sign players of their ilk and quality, when we signed them, they could be midfielders,defenders,whatever, it wasn't a particular position I was discussing, i was talking about the level of talent and what we could buy, I used the front three as an example.

We have the money. The problem isn't the money the problem is availability and the fit of the side. We can't sign Mbappe but we don't need to sign a player like him to be successful. We didn't sign Fekir because of underlying medical issue, not because we were skint.

Not every player is available for variety of reasons and not every player suits this club and the manager. So money isn't the issue why we can't solve every problem right away

Maybe it was my mistake for not quoting a couple of posters in the page who were saying we were still a couple of players short.  I was stating we'll always have holes or seem thin as while we aren't skint and do have money it's not endless.  Your argument is we should sign good quality players without any real context as to when.  Again maybe it's my fault for not being more specific but I don't see how one relates to the other at the moment.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1428 on: July 30, 2018, 02:55:09 am »
I'll disagree again :D


 snip



Okay, PoP now can you explain something simple like quantum physics?  That was a great post, thank you.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1429 on: July 30, 2018, 02:56:34 am »
Okay, PoP now can you explain something simple like quantum physics?  That was a great post, thank you.

Sure.

Quantum physics.

It's like normal physics

Only quantum.

You're welcome.

:D
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1430 on: July 30, 2018, 03:00:39 am »
Ah right, now I see where you're coming from. Yeah I can see why you would have had reservations about Shaqiri. What I think, though, is that the first and second points feed off each other - improve his stamina, and his workrate will improve. His intelligence is largely locked in, but given how seamlessly he seemed to fit in last night, I think we can at least give him the benefit of the doubt and say he understands what Klopp wants on a tactical level. Obviously, acceleration and top speed is innate, and as the saying goes, "you can't coach speed", but my take on it is that given how much time we spend in the opposition half and around the opposition penalty area, his acceleration will be more important than his top speed. I don't think Shaqiri will be the go-to player when we're attacking from deep. I think his ability to get past a player in small spaces will be where we see his worth.

PoP this sounds like Shaqiri and Sturridge will  be early second half subs for Salah and Mane when teams have the bus parked (successfully) so deep we can't  play in space and need to work the ball around in close to get goal opportunities.  Does that make sense?

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1431 on: July 30, 2018, 03:03:22 am »
PoP this sounds like Shaqiri and Sturridge will  be early second half subs for Salah and Mane when teams have the bus parked (successfully) so deep we can't  play in space and need to work the ball around in close to get goal opportunities.  Does that make sense?

Yep. I think we're at a stage in our attack where we could realistically have 99 out 100 teams all-ends-up, where it doesn't matter what they do, we have a solution for it.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1432 on: July 30, 2018, 07:39:03 am »
Sure.

Quantum physics.

It's like normal physics

Only quantum.

You're welcome.

:D

I thought Quantum Physics was like zonal marking?
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1433 on: July 30, 2018, 09:43:10 am »
I thought Quantum Physics was like zonal marking?

Not really. People don't question the theory of quantum physics.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1434 on: July 30, 2018, 10:37:48 am »
Every team, coach, player and manager operates under those 12 principles, depending on their particular tactical bent.

Great post.

I wonder if there's any stats out there which compare the most succesful traits of a winning team in recent seasons.

There will always be one factor, the quality of the players....

But the other things you mentioned (principles of attack and defence) and whether in the last 20 years for example managers that favour width and counter attack tend to win the league.

Would be interesting if there's any kind of work club's do to install managers that have the philosophies most tailored to win the league here before bringing them in. Guess a sporting director would do that if anything
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1435 on: July 30, 2018, 10:58:37 am »
R.e salah and mane Off for Sturridge and Shaqiri. Surely teams would very quickly cotton on to this tactic and simply push up immediately after the subs knowing we’re far less likely to run in behind.

I guess what you were proposing wasn’t quite as linear as that. I suspect we’d always leave at least 1 pacey player on to keep the opposition honest.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1436 on: July 30, 2018, 11:08:06 am »
Sure.

Quantum physics.

It's like normal physics

Only quantum.

You're welcome.

:D

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1437 on: July 30, 2018, 11:40:15 am »
If you’ve managed to unify classical and quantum physics then you need to clear some space on your shelves for a Nobel Prize.

I am sure there is an analogy here between rafa's and klopp's tactics and positional uncertainty.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1438 on: July 30, 2018, 11:57:53 am »
The bit of that I don't understand, PoP, is what 'depth' means in terms of the principles of attack?

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1439 on: July 30, 2018, 12:36:13 pm »
The bit of that I don't understand, PoP, is what 'depth' means in terms of the principles of attack?

Positioning ahead of the ball carrier, but not always behind other opposition players. Basically, being closer to the goal than the player with the ball
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