Author Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles  (Read 169535 times)

Offline Egyptian36

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1320 on: September 11, 2017, 10:38:27 am »

The system is fine yes we attack with numbers but yet we are good at limiting the chances conceded even more than than defensive teams like Chelsea and Man Utd which show how good Klopp is tactically ..


Whats killing us is the individuals errors.

https://youtu.be/I0UdzTeHdNA
How many of these goals are due to the system?..

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1321 on: September 11, 2017, 10:41:22 am »
This midfield trio has it in them. They have been at the scene of the crime at too many of these capitulation.

I maybe think that Can and Wijnaldum are neglecting too many of the defensive stuff when there is no Coutinho or Lallana. Maybe they think they need to be the attacking midfielder and forget everything else?

As good as Henderson undoubtedly is from an offensive point of view when we are on the front foot, I do question him defensively despite his fairly impressive ball recovery stats (which, without looking into any further, wouldn't surprise me if the bulk of them aren't made in the defensive zone you would expect of a side's deepest midfielder).

Would we have had 5 clean sheets in 6 matches in us to crawl over the line for top four had he been playing in that role instead of Can or Lucas at the back end of last season?

That said, I think we need him and Can right now. Get Coutinho into that midfield in place of Wijnaldum so that they have a creative outlet and as such, as you rightly suggest, can focus a bit more on the defensive side of the game.

Offline Kelvinlfc

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1322 on: September 11, 2017, 10:45:07 am »
We just don't have a Plan B, the second Mane was sent off we needed to change things and go into the break at 1-0 down. We didn't and then they get the crucial 2nd goal before half time and that's it we were fucked. We could've gone 4-4-1 and played on the break at 1-0 down and probably still lost but we just weren't compact enough defensively.

Klavan is every bit the £4m player we paid and should be playing in Scotland or the Championship.  How he is our third choice centre back I've no idea.

Offline L8Craig

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1323 on: September 11, 2017, 10:51:46 am »
The system is fine yes we attack with numbers but yet we are good at limiting the chances conceded even more than than defensive teams like Chelsea and Man Utd which show how good Klopp is tactically ..


Whats killing us is the individuals errors.

https://youtu.be/I0UdzTeHdNA
How many of these goals are due to the system?..
Some absolute howlers there by Lovren, Klavan and Mignolet.

Offline JD.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1324 on: September 11, 2017, 11:50:39 am »
The biggest concerns I have around our defence is the lack of communication, the lack of aggression and just all round lack of desire to actually defend. Moreno for example, yeah he will defend when he needs to but does anyone honestly get the feeling with him that he has a desire to do it? Same with Lovren. Same with even Matip.

This is as quiet a defence as you are likely to see. Nobody is screaming at each other to get in to position, or to track runners or to just switch on. Look at the state of our defensive line for the first goal at the weekend. Not a single defend in line with another. None of them paying attention to the position of their other defenders never mind the position of the attackers. Carragher was constantly switched on. Desperate to defend. He was always talking his fellow defenders through every second of a game and leading the defence. It was everything to him. This defence just feels so laissez faire. Oh if they need defend then they'll try when it gets to them personally, but they don't work as a unit in the slightest. They aren't constantly thinking and aware of where they should be and where their team mates are.

I was just thinking back to our team from a decade ago, and it was just so different in attitude. Yes, we didn't always win. Yes we would lose games etc etc. But we had communicators and people who really CARED if we concede. It made them angry. Pepe Reina, Jamie Carragher, Javier Mascherano. If you didnt pull your weight with them they'd rip your head off. Who gives out that impression now? It's all to nice. Every one of them. Even lads like Arbeloa were snide fuckers. Lads who cared about defending. Carra got in his face and he didnt back down in the slightest. Who would do that now if Carra shouted at them?

Joel Matip, our first choice CB, a good player. But far too nice and far too passive. When have you ever saw him get in the face of a CF he is playing against? When has he ever got in a heated argument with anyone? Any time he fouls lads, he's putting his hand out picking them up and apologising right away. Nasty fuckers like Costa last season for example. I remember him trying to leave one on Matip. A couple minutes later he fouled Costa and was apologising profusely right away.

It's the biggest issue our defence has. The lack of absolute desperation to defend well. And it is hard to sign lads who will fix it because it is difficult to know who has that drive. It was the thing I adored most about Suarez. Not his skill. Not his creativity. Not even his work ethic. But his absolute desire to do anything and everything to win. He'd put his life down if it meant winning a game of football. He was so driven. He'd lose his shit more if we conceded a throw in than our current lads do if we concede a goal. When did you last see someone lose their shit at conceding a goal. It's just shrugs. Nobody willing to dig each other out and pull someone up. It's all about drive. Remember Suarez going fucking mental at Sturridge for not passing him the ball when we were 4-0 up in a derby? That's the attitude our defenders and in general everyone needs to have. Thankfully we have Naby Keita joining next summer and I think he has that mentality from what I have saw of him.

We need leaders and communicators in that back line, and we need them ASAP.  I'll be honest, it obviously won't happen because it would be too much change at once, but I'd have no problem with Klopp replacing any of our back 6. Matip is the one I like most in there, but even he has questions marks around him due to his mentality.

Offline Carra-ton

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1325 on: September 11, 2017, 12:15:10 pm »
Keita and Van Dijk in our side on Saturday against City and I feel we wouldn't have conceded  at least 3 of those goals. Our problem still is personnel.
For all of Can's improvement, him and Wijnaldum have issues in recognizing threats. Henderson had a poor game by his standards, maybe it was the International break, maybe something else.
Trent is not yet defensively ready, and Mendy and De Bruyne destroyed our right side. Plus Klavan when exposed by mistakes is not able to make recovery tackles or headers.
With so many poor performances , it was no surprise we lost heavily.
We need Gomez at right back, and need Lovren to play more than Klavan. We need our midfielders to have more focus.
Something which we will deal with better in the future, but we will leak goals this season.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1326 on: September 11, 2017, 12:25:11 pm »
The biggest concerns I have around our defence is the lack of communication, the lack of aggression and just all round lack of desire to actually defend. Moreno for example, yeah he will defend when he needs to but does anyone honestly get the feeling with him that he has a desire to do it? Same with Lovren. Same with even Matip.
.

I think that's harsh on Lovren. He has shortcomings - a tendency to dive in and drift too far to the left touchline - but he very much has a strong desire to defend and does so with aggression. It's why I consider him and Matip to complement each other quite well with their record together backing that up. Lovren is strong, aggressive, fantastic in the air, while Matip is great at nicking the ball from players and bringing the ball out.

I felt Matip was actually playing rather well until the sending off on Saturday, but I agree he isn't the type of character or leader required in that scenario. Lovren would have been a great help, not least because he's a far better defender than Klavan, but also because I believe he is the type to shout at people and demand improvement. Unfortunately that's twice now in his relatively short Liverpool career that he's been sitting on the bench while we've been tonked by five goals.

Offline ahannon88

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1327 on: September 11, 2017, 12:54:01 pm »
The biggest concerns I have around our defence is the lack of communication, the lack of aggression and just all round lack of desire to actually defend. Moreno for example, yeah he will defend when he needs to but does anyone honestly get the feeling with him that he has a desire to do it? Same with Lovren. Same with even Matip.

This is as quiet a defence as you are likely to see. Nobody is screaming at each other to get in to position, or to track runners or to just switch on. Look at the state of our defensive line for the first goal at the weekend. Not a single defend in line with another. None of them paying attention to the position of their other defenders never mind the position of the attackers. Carragher was constantly switched on. Desperate to defend. He was always talking his fellow defenders through every second of a game and leading the defence. It was everything to him. This defence just feels so laissez faire. Oh if they need defend then they'll try when it gets to them personally, but they don't work as a unit in the slightest. They aren't constantly thinking and aware of where they should be and where their team mates are.

I was just thinking back to our team from a decade ago, and it was just so different in attitude. Yes, we didn't always win. Yes we would lose games etc etc. But we had communicators and people who really CARED if we concede. It made them angry. Pepe Reina, Jamie Carragher, Javier Mascherano. If you didnt pull your weight with them they'd rip your head off. Who gives out that impression now? It's all to nice. Every one of them. Even lads like Arbeloa were snide fuckers. Lads who cared about defending. Carra got in his face and he didnt back down in the slightest. Who would do that now if Carra shouted at them?

Joel Matip, our first choice CB, a good player. But far too nice and far too passive. When have you ever saw him get in the face of a CF he is playing against? When has he ever got in a heated argument with anyone? Any time he fouls lads, he's putting his hand out picking them up and apologising right away. Nasty fuckers like Costa last season for example. I remember him trying to leave one on Matip. A couple minutes later he fouled Costa and was apologising profusely right away.

It's the biggest issue our defence has. The lack of absolute desperation to defend well. And it is hard to sign lads who will fix it because it is difficult to know who has that drive. It was the thing I adored most about Suarez. Not his skill. Not his creativity. Not even his work ethic. But his absolute desire to do anything and everything to win. He'd put his life down if it meant winning a game of football. He was so driven. He'd lose his shit more if we conceded a throw in than our current lads do if we concede a goal. When did you last see someone lose their shit at conceding a goal. It's just shrugs. Nobody willing to dig each other out and pull someone up. It's all about drive. Remember Suarez going fucking mental at Sturridge for not passing him the ball when we were 4-0 up in a derby? That's the attitude our defenders and in general everyone needs to have. Thankfully we have Naby Keita joining next summer and I think he has that mentality from what I have saw of him.

We need leaders and communicators in that back line, and we need them ASAP.  I'll be honest, it obviously won't happen because it would be too much change at once, but I'd have no problem with Klopp replacing any of our back 6. Matip is the one I like most in there, but even he has questions marks around him due to his mentality.

Couldn't agree more. Don't seem to have anyone in the current backline that really has that side to their game

Offline Jookie

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1328 on: September 11, 2017, 01:12:22 pm »
The biggest concerns I have around our defence is the lack of communication, the lack of aggression and just all round lack of desire to actually defend.

Good post but I have to take issue with one thing. We are all looking for 1 thing to change that's going to make a massive difference. Reality is that it's likely that more than 1 thing is wrong and it'll be a number of smaller changes that drives a marked improvement.

Let's take our defence. Communication and character is something that can be levelled at them. I don't think we necessarily need someone ranting and raving on the pitch but our team seem like a quiet bunch. Putting Jamie Carragher into this defence would improve it. I'm not sure how much by though. I think you'd get an improvement based on his communication and organisational skills. You'd also get an improvement on him being a better centre back than any one else at the club. One player won't make all the difference though. We wouldn't suddenly go from a team that concedes 40+ goals a season to one that concedes under 30.

I think a peak Carragher might struggle in this system. At least comparatively to his performances under Benitez. That's because of the system. The areas of the pitch the full backs take up and the general lack of midfield cover on occasions. What Carragher would be asked to do under Klopp would be miles away from what he was asked to do under Benitez.

I think we need someone organising at the back. I think we need some better quality players in certain positions. However, if we play the same system then we'll probably continue to be a team that struggles defensively on occasions. Maybe it would be on less occasions with some different  players but we'd still have that underlying vulnerability. That's because of the tactical system. I'm quite comfortable with that. It's a tactical system that adds some defensive frailty but is fucking amazing going forward. We'll batter loads of teams this season because of that tactical system. We'll get beat on occasion too because of our defensive vulnerability. The very odd time, like Saturday, we might get battered. I suppose the question for me is whether we can make tweaks to the tactical system that don't blunt the attack but help us tighten up slightly at the back.

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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1329 on: September 11, 2017, 01:19:22 pm »
I'd like to see us take a more pragmatic approach to away games. At the moment we're playing the same formation and style away from home as we are at home.

Last season we scored 45 goals and conceded 18 at home (one more than Chelsea) with a goal difference of 27 which is quite impressive, but away from home we scored 33 and conceded 24 with a goal difference of 9.

This season we've kept two clean sheets at home but conceded 8 in two away games. Obviously this is exaggerated by what happened at the weekend but it's not pretty reading considering we've conceded 3 at Watford.

I'd really like to see a dedicated DM come in for away games or maybe switch to a 4-2-3-1 formation and give the back four more protection. Dropping the defence a few yards deeper wouldn't hurt either. That high line against Man City with ten men was suicidal.   
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1330 on: September 11, 2017, 01:22:13 pm »
I'd like to see us take a more pragmatic approach to away games. At the moment we're playing the same formation and style away from home as we are at home.

Last season we scored 45 goals and conceded 18 at home (one more than Chelsea) with a goal difference of 27 which is quite impressive, but away from home we scored 33 and conceded 24 with a goal difference of 9.

This season we've kept two clean sheets at home but conceded 8 in two away games. Obviously this is exaggerated by what happened at the weekend but it's not pretty reading considering we've conceded 3 at Watford.

I'd really like to see a dedicated DM come in for away games or maybe switch to a 4-2-3-1 formation and give the back four more protection. Dropping the defence a few yards deeper wouldn't hurt either. That high line against Man City with ten men was suicidal.   

What makes you think that playing 2 in midfield would make a difference? The players abandoned their positions for the first goal and they could do it again.

I think the personnel are a big issue here.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1331 on: September 11, 2017, 01:32:32 pm »
I'd really like to see a dedicated DM come in for away games

I'd like that for all games. Don't think it will happen though.

Its a specialist role and I don't think Jordan or Emre think about football in the way that is required for a defensive midfielder.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1332 on: September 11, 2017, 01:35:49 pm »
What makes you think that playing 2 in midfield would make a difference? The players abandoned their positions for the first goal and they could do it again.

I think the personnel are a big issue here.
You put two players in there who are told be stay deeper rather than pressing high up the pitch or constantly looking for the counter attack.

Telling the wingers to track back rather than being in half spaces would be a help too. 

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Offline Jookie

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1333 on: September 11, 2017, 01:42:55 pm »
You put two players in there who are told be stay deeper rather than pressing high up the pitch or constantly looking for the counter attack.

Telling the wingers to track back rather than being in half spaces would be a help too. 


That completely changes how we play though.

I think we change to this type of formation then we'd definitely concede less. Not sure we'd win more though. 2 deep lying midfielder and pushing the wingers backwards would have a knock on effect on the attacking side of things. You'd suspect so anyway.

Also as others have said I wonder if we have the midfielders with the tactical discipline to sit in and protect the back 4. It's pretty much a specialised role to do well.

This system got us 35 points away from home last season. If we can get anywhere near 38-40 points away from home then we'll have a chance of Top 3 at least.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1334 on: September 11, 2017, 01:43:06 pm »
You put two players in there who are told be stay deeper rather than pressing high up the pitch or constantly looking for the counter attack.

Telling the wingers to track back rather than being in half spaces would be a help too. 



Do we lose to much of an attacking threat though? I dont really like the thought of having to compromise our style in away games against poorer sides.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1335 on: September 11, 2017, 01:48:36 pm »
Do we lose to much of an attacking threat though? I dont really like the thought of having to compromise our style in away games against poorer sides.
I think we'd always continue to be a threat on the counter attack as we have so much pace through Mane and Salah. If your front four is;

Mane   Sturridge/Solanke  Salah

Firmino

That would be a goal threat against most teams away from home.

This system got us 35 points away from home last season. If we can get anywhere near 38-40 points away from home then we'll have a chance of Top 3 at least.
We're three points down on the same fixtures from last season and we've conceded eight goals in two games. We cannot continue shipping goals like this away from home.
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1336 on: September 11, 2017, 01:49:00 pm »
You put two players in there who are told be stay deeper rather than pressing high up the pitch or constantly looking for the counter attack.

Telling the wingers to track back rather than being in half spaces would be a help too.

Basically, you want us to approach away games like a Mourinho side would?

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1337 on: September 11, 2017, 01:56:45 pm »
Basically, you want us to approach away games like a Mourinho side would?
No, not at all.

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Offline RK7

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1338 on: September 11, 2017, 02:04:59 pm »
The system is fine yes we attack with numbers but yet we are good at limiting the chances conceded even more than than defensive teams like Chelsea and Man Utd which show how good Klopp is tactically ..


Whats killing us is the individuals errors.

https://youtu.be/I0UdzTeHdNA
How many of these goals are due to the system?..


Shocking stuff.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1339 on: September 11, 2017, 02:11:36 pm »
No, not at all.

You basically are describing a Mouirinho side.  Defensive wingers and 2 midfielders sitting which would take away from our attacking coordination and require us to rely on individual players to create their own scoring opportunities.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1340 on: September 11, 2017, 02:15:31 pm »
You basically are describing a Mouirinho side.  Defensive wingers and 2 midfielders sitting which would take away from our attacking coordination and require us to rely on individual players to create their own scoring opportunities.
Firstly, how many trophies has Mourinho won playing that style? It may not be pretty but it's effective. Spurs pretty much play the same way, as do Chelsea. Us, Arsenal and City are probably the most open teams but even City play with a holding midfielder.

Secondly, we played 4-2-3-1 when Klopp first come to the club, it helped get us to two cup finals. Were we overly negative then?
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Offline Jookie

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1341 on: September 11, 2017, 02:16:49 pm »

We're three points down on the same fixtures from last season and we've conceded eight goals in two games. We cannot continue shipping goals like this away from home.

I don't think we will keep on shipping goals at this rate away from home though. That's based on the evidence from 19 games last season versus 2 games this season.

I just don't think you throw away a tactical system that gets you a decent amount of points away from home the season before. Not after 2 games anyway. 1 in which you played with 10 men for 60 mins against arguably the best attacking team in the league.

If the defence continues like this for the next 4 or 5 away games then it might be time to re-consider our approach. For me, doing what you suggested (i.e. whole sale changes to our tactical set up) would seem like a rash decision after a handful of games.
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Offline RK7

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1342 on: September 11, 2017, 02:20:53 pm »
I'd like that for all games. Don't think it will happen though.

Its a specialist role and I don't think Jordan or Emre think about football in the way that is required for a defensive midfielder.

You're right, a DM player has instincts and looks at what could happen if we lost possession. It not just about their ability to tackle, it's about anticipation, positioning, tactical fouls and so on. Now Lucas has gone we don't have a single player like this at the club. Combine that with the way we look to play...advanced fullbacks, centre half's in wide positions and pushing players forward it's a recipe for disaster unless you have the personal to cope. Lovren is hopeless to be honest, Mignolet isn't much better and at the moment Matip hasn't shown he's an upgrade at CB.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1343 on: September 11, 2017, 02:27:19 pm »
Firstly, how many trophies has Mourinho won playing that style? It may not be pretty but it's effective. Spurs pretty much play the same way, as do Chelsea. Us, Arsenal and City are probably the most open teams but even City play with a holding midfielder.

Secondly, we played 4-2-3-1 when Klopp first come to the club, it helped get us to two cup finals. Were we overly negative then?
My original question to you was, "So you want us to play like a Mourinho side?".  I didn't pass judgement on whether it was effective, overly negative, or successful.  I simply asked a question to get clarification on what you were looking for Klopp to do. 

Secondly, There's more then one way to be successful.  I could simply reply back, how many trophies has Guardiola won playing the exact opposite of Mourinho.  There's no right or wrong way to play the game.  It's a matter of personnel and philosophy that dictates how any team plays.

Personally, I would hate having to watch that shit on a stick football that Mourinho teams play.  I'd rather go another 27 years without winning a trophy then see that game in game out.  If that's something that you would like to see that's Ok. 

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1344 on: September 11, 2017, 02:34:24 pm »
The system is fine yes we attack with numbers but yet we are good at limiting the chances conceded even more than than defensive teams like Chelsea and Man Utd which show how good Klopp is tactically ..


Whats killing us is the individuals errors.

https://youtu.be/I0UdzTeHdNA
How many of these goals are due to the system?..

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

Hahah everyone watch this. If you still believe it's the system then you're simply wrong.
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Offline Chief Brody

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1345 on: September 11, 2017, 02:34:34 pm »
You're right, a DM player has instincts and looks at what could happen if we lost possession. It not just about their ability to tackle, it's about anticipation, positioning, tactical fouls and so on. Now Lucas has gone we don't have a single player like this at the club.

City, Utd, Chelsea all have dedicated, specialist defensive midfielders, Barcelona and Madrid have specialists, these are all teams that more naturally cautious than us. It does baffle me a bit. Klopps had them before.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1346 on: September 11, 2017, 02:35:17 pm »
I don't think we will keep on shipping goals at this rate away from home though. That's based on the evidence from 19 games last season versus 2 games this season.

I just don't think you throw away a tactical system that gets you a decent amount of points away from home the season before. Not after 2 games anyway. 1 in which you played with 10 men for 60 mins against arguably the best attacking team in the league.

If the defence continues like this for the next 4 or 5 away games then it might be time to re-consider our approach. For me, doing what you suggested (i.e. whole sale changes to our tactical set up) would seem like a rash decision after a handful of games.
Did you consider the change from 4-2-3-1 in Klopp’s first season to 4-3-3 in his second season to be wholesale changes? How about when we went 3-5-2 against Stoke last season or when we used the diamond formation in a couple of games? 

We’re obviously not going to continue to concede 4 goals away from on average, but even going on last season’s record we concede too many goals away from home. We’ve got to significantly improve this season just to match that which wasn’t good enough.
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Offline Chief Brody

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1347 on: September 11, 2017, 02:37:07 pm »
Hahah everyone watch this. If you still believe it's the system then you're simply wrong.

I'm not sure what that video proves, every team concedes goals, every team commits individual errors.

I think if you put together a video of goals conceded by any team its going to look bad, isnt it?

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1348 on: September 11, 2017, 02:40:16 pm »
My original question to you was, "So you want us to play like a Mourinho side?".  I didn't pass judgement on whether it was effective, overly negative, or successful.  I simply asked a question to get clarification on what you were looking for Klopp to do. 

Secondly, There's more then one way to be successful.  I could simply reply back, how many trophies has Guardiola won playing the exact opposite of Mourinho.  There's no right or wrong way to play the game.  It's a matter of personnel and philosophy that dictates how any team plays.

Personally, I would hate having to watch that shit on a stick football that Mourinho teams play.  I'd rather go another 27 years without winning a trophy then see that game in game out.  If that's something that you would like to see that's Ok.
Again, you're the one associating changing formation with 'Mourinho style'. Why not associate it with Pochettino or Conte who play a similar way? Were Rafa's teams playing shite football? They're being pragmatic but it's not shit on a stick football is it? 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 02:56:20 pm by Funky_Gibbons »
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1349 on: September 11, 2017, 02:42:35 pm »
I'm not sure what that video proves, every team concedes goals, every team commits individual errors.

I think if you put together a video of goals conceded by any team its going to look bad, isnt it?
Take the goals from set-pieces out of that video and there's plenty of goals which are down to the system, players running through our midfield, through balls with no pressure being put on, overloads etc etc. 
"And there are red and white scarves of Liverpool, and red and white bobble hats of Liverpool, and red and white rosettes of Liverpool, and nothing else. And the sun shines now."

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1350 on: September 11, 2017, 02:58:23 pm »
Again, you're the one associating changing formation with 'Mourinho style'. Why not associate it with Pochettino or Conte who play a similar way? Were Rafa's teams playing shite football? They're being pragmatic but it's not shit on a stick football is it?

You basically described Mourinho's system.  That's why I called it "Mourinho style". 

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1351 on: September 11, 2017, 03:07:38 pm »
You basically described Mourinho's system.  That's why I called it "Mourinho style".

He didn't. You're being disingenuous.

There's also a big difference between 'Mourinho football' in big games - where it's effectively a 6-3-1 out of possession - to a Mourinho system in other games where it's more of a 4-4-1-1. Funky was clearly suggesting something more akin to the latter than the former.

I do think our wingers should be tracking back more quickly than in some of the matches we have seen so far. They're more than capable and quick enough to do so whilst retaining an attacking threat. Salah in the match at Hoffenheim, for example, retained a disciplined shape to support TAA, but we still managed to play him in on the counter two or three times.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1352 on: September 11, 2017, 03:11:48 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

Hahah everyone watch this. If you still believe it's the system then you're simply wrong.
It's actually nuts how many of those are comedy goals.

Offline RK7

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1353 on: September 11, 2017, 03:13:32 pm »
You basically described Mourinho's system.  That's why I called it "Mourinho style". 

Or a Pochittino system...

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1354 on: September 11, 2017, 03:16:53 pm »
Or a Pochittino system...
Or a Rafa system.

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Re: 'Liverpool haven't strengthened the defence'
« Reply #1355 on: September 11, 2017, 03:23:34 pm »
They had 66% possession, making 713 passes compared to our 372. You would expect our midfield to have attempted more tackles than their's as a result - and yet they attempted double.

And that's including David Silva and Kevin de Bruyne, who frankly offer far, far, far more on the ball than any of our trio.

The invisible man needs to be dropped.
The midfield was poor but I'd have a guess that's what happens when you go down to 10 men. Immediately a great ball playing side like Man City has more space and less pressure on the pitch so can pick us apart with their passing so we are chasing shadows instead of putting tackles in. Then on the flip-side when we have the ball we have less passing options and outlets to keep possession so it is much easier for them to regain control of the ball especially if they press us hence them getting more tackles.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1356 on: September 11, 2017, 03:42:53 pm »
Firstly, how many trophies has Mourinho won playing that style? It may not be pretty but it's effective. Spurs pretty much play the same way, as do Chelsea. Us, Arsenal and City are probably the most open teams but even City play with a holding midfielder.

Secondly, we played 4-2-3-1 when Klopp first come to the club, it helped get us to two cup finals. Were we overly negative then?
Henderson is a holding midfielder just like Fernandinho, we play the same formation when City goes 4-3-3. Fernandinho was also a number 8 converted to a 6. City also have no back up defensive midfielder to Fernandinho.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1357 on: September 11, 2017, 03:47:07 pm »
To many brains are in default mode.

We've played 3 this season. Kept 2 clean sheets.
3-3 draw Watford
1-0 win Palace ( a team that had won at Anfield 3 times on the bounce)
4-0 win Arsenal

8 scored, 3 conceded

Let's look at last seasons first three.
3-4 win Arsenal
2-0 loss Burnley
1-1 draw Spurs.

5 scored, 6 conceded.


Yes it is a small sample but it is still improvement.

Reprogram your brains for this seasons version of LFC.  :P

NOPE.

We conceded goals by the bucketfull the only times we were put under significant pressure.

That was from Watford FC and Man City.

At home against Palace and Arsenal we dominated the games, with huge possession and attacking intent.

So from your small sample, it looks like when teams put pressure on us and have a go we concede goals. When we dominate them at Anfield, we don't.

Doesn't bode well, does it for a full season in the Premier League?
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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1358 on: September 11, 2017, 03:49:40 pm »
We have no unit when defending.  The back four are stretched constantly with the midfield unable to form
 a unit with the defence. We basically defend idividually and require our players to win their battle.  Unfortunately we have too many players who don't.

It's Klopps job to form a unit. Rafa was a master at it. 

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1359 on: September 11, 2017, 04:18:42 pm »
Take the goals from set-pieces out of that video and there's plenty of goals which are down to the system, players running through our midfield, through balls with no pressure being put on, overloads etc etc.

The way we defend is different than others but its not bad. Last season we conceded 312 goal attempts. Its less than Chelsea, Tottenham and Man Utd.

So our system make us Concede less goal attempts yet we created 499 chances, only Tottenham created more 505 but when it comes to the challenges lost we lost 400 challenges , 15 teams are better than us.


Now someone may argue that our system give the opposition more cut clear chances than other teams but but the solution is not changing a great system but more like getting players who win more challenges.