Author Topic: Islamism  (Read 197275 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1040 on: August 7, 2014, 10:23:13 pm »
I dont expect you to be a mind reader etc. The reason you have given on the thread is very vague. One can argue the same is happening in this thread. But I am not interested in reporting anyone or anything, neither do I wish this to be locked. I am disappointed the Palestine thread was closed, because I believe in condemning what is happening in Gaza. Taking that away is disappointing, especially as that story has been traditionally misrepresented in the media.

But you have told us whats going on, so I hope it can be opened again. That is all.

The issue that resulted in the thread being locked is being discussed and I am happy for it to be unlocked. It would be helpful to both threads to think about the way they come across to others and why they are posting.

If you are on here to protest about the Israeli invasion of Gaza then you really need to think about your activism. 'Protesting' in a thread that's read by a handful of people, half of whom disagree with you and won't change their mind, on a football website?

Isn't that a bit pointless? If you want to protest then get off your arse and fucking protest. Otherwise you're just enjoying the sound of your own voice.

What you could do on a Liverpool Football club website is engage with the people you disagree with. Read their links and don't try and 'win' the argument.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1041 on: August 7, 2014, 10:25:52 pm »
''What did you do in the War Daddy?"

"I condemned it vehemently on a sub forum of RAWK son"
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1042 on: August 7, 2014, 10:28:56 pm »
Progress will come form better standards of living in these countries.

I think progress comes with every debate, every disagreement. There could be some kid somewhere on here for football who reads something he or she hadn't thought of. I know posters on here who have changed their minds on many things, me included. You may say I'm a dreamer etc..

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1043 on: August 7, 2014, 10:31:50 pm »
I think progress comes with every debate, every disagreement. There could be some kid somewhere on here for football who reads something he or she hadn't thought of. I know posters on here who have changed their minds on many things, me included. You may say I'm a dreamer etc..
I'm not sure I agree.

People would rather find hatred in what other people say rather than common ground.
I hope you're right though, I do.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1044 on: August 7, 2014, 10:32:17 pm »
I think progress comes with every debate, every disagreement. There could be some kid somewhere on here for football who reads something he or she hadn't thought of. I know posters on here who have changed their minds on many things, me included. You may say I'm a dreamer etc..

I've changed my mind about a lot of things after discussions on here. It's trying to 'win' the Internet that is so pointless.
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Offline SadRed

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1045 on: August 7, 2014, 10:44:19 pm »
The issue that resulted in the thread being locked is being discussed and I am happy for it to be unlocked. It would be helpful to both threads to think about the way they come across to others and why they are posting.

If you are on here to protest about the Israeli invasion of Gaza then you really need to think about your activism. 'Protesting' in a thread that's read by a handful of people, half of whom disagree with you and won't change their mind, on a football website?

Isn't that a bit pointless? If you want to protest then get off your arse and fucking protest. Otherwise you're just enjoying the sound of your own voice.

What you could do on a Liverpool Football club website is engage with the people you disagree with. Read their links and don't try and 'win' the argument.

You are being unncessarily harsh. How the hell do you know that I dont protest?

Also, I am least interested in winning a debate - I just ended my discussion with corkboy. I have been here for a few years and you can see how much I post and how much I simply read comments. If I was interested in 'debating' and 'winning'    I would be ratcheting up 30,000 odd  posts instead of the paltry 2000.

Its only because I share a common interest with people here that I feel the need to have a discussion with them about what I feel so strongly about. Atleast its an issue that needs discussing. Otherwise whats the point of having a football forum in the first place? Not like discussing transfer rumours is going to affect on what Brendan is going to buy.


Offline SadRed

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1046 on: August 7, 2014, 10:56:03 pm »
''What did you do in the War Daddy?"

"I condemned it vehemently on a sub forum of RAWK son"

I've changed my mind about a lot of things after discussions on here. It's trying to 'win' the Internet that is so pointless.

Seriously enough taking jibes here - who is trying to 'win' now?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1047 on: August 7, 2014, 10:59:02 pm »
@sadred.....

Look, debate, but don't bicker.  Treat each there's opinion graciously even when you don't agree with it.

That's the essence of what Alan is trying to say I guess.  I don't think that it applies to you more than any other poster in the thread so bear that in mind.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Libero

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1048 on: August 7, 2014, 11:01:25 pm »
And yet we are doomed nonetheless to do so.

Most terrorism in the world right now is Islamist.

No I don't think that's true.

I mean, what about state sponsored terrorism? or State enabled terrorism for that matter?

They might use conditioned terms like "Protective edge" or "cast lead with a sprinkling of white phosphorus " or "Desert Storm" for that matter.

The victors / the strong rather than the vanquished / the weak, get to decide what will fed to the people; but Terror is what they bring, and terror is what they leave behind.



Offline SadRed

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1049 on: August 7, 2014, 11:01:40 pm »
That's the essence of what Alan is trying to say I guess.  I don't think that it applies to you more than any other poster in the thread so bear that in mind.

Thats fair enough, I used to moderate LFC forum in a social networking site so I understand. Only that Alan came across quite condescending. Anyway, I dont want to clog this up anymore.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1050 on: August 7, 2014, 11:03:48 pm »
Thats fair enough, I used to moderate LFC forum in a social networking site so I understand. Only that Alan came across quite condescending. Anyway, I dont want to clog this up anymore.
Alan's not condescending, he's just always right ;D
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1051 on: August 7, 2014, 11:09:22 pm »
No I don't think that's true.

I mean, what about state sponsored terrorism? or State enabled terrorism for that matter?

I'm using terrorism in the conventional sense, not in the State sense, which is probably an entirely different conversation, and an awfully grey one. Having said that, I would guess many Islamist terrorist bankrolls have a Saudi band.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1052 on: August 7, 2014, 11:10:56 pm »
I certainly do think that there are remarks on the thread that I believe are Islamophobic. There is unquestionable outrage and disgrace as the way ISIS and a lot of Islamist groups operate. They are terrible bunch of people no doubt. But there is a subtle but consistent attempt here to link violence to Islam/Muslims which I think is unfair. This is only my opinion and I may be wrong, but this is how I see it quite clearly.

Are you really seeing it "clearly"? There is no "subtle but consistent attempt" to link Islamist violence to all Muslims in this thread. Quite the opposite. The thread, right from the very start, is largely about the Muslim victims of Islamist violence. I would defy anyone to read the thread and not see this is true.

Some folks have got upset or annoyed that posters (like me) have linked Islamism with Islam. But I'm certain that no critic of Islamism has reduced the creed to Islam or claimed, for example, that Islamists are the true and authentic interpreters of the Koran.  My own argument - and Corky's too I think - is that the Koran is contradictory and open to multiple interpretations. We both happen to think it's a fictional work, but that's by the by. The important point is that it is self-evidently contradictory. It contains - like the Bible - nice bits and nasty bits, peaceful bits and violent bits. It is mad, therefore, to use the Koran, in all its incredible confusion, as the basis for building a modern society. The Islamists wish to do this. Ergo they are mad.

That's all.

If that's "Islamophobia" then fine, I'm an "Islamophobe". But it won't stop me from standing up for Muslims being murdered and butchered by the Islamists.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Libero

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1053 on: August 7, 2014, 11:37:14 pm »
I'm using terrorism in the conventional sense, not in the State sense, which is probably an entirely different conversation, and an awfully grey one. Having said that, I would guess many Islamist terrorist bankrolls have a Saudi band.


Fair comment Corky. 

The Wahabi doctrine is indeed a dangerous one - allegedly (Have to use that term, because they are best mates with UK, US etc... Me no like Rendition / Gitmo)

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1054 on: August 7, 2014, 11:42:52 pm »
Indonesia has banned support for ISIS...

Good to see that
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1055 on: August 7, 2014, 11:46:00 pm »
Yeah lets just arm everyone because that seems to have worked in Lybia, Syria or even in Palestine with Israel/America arming Hamas. It is not a long term solution, in fact in the long run recent history shows that it is a poor solution.
But the Kurds like us

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1056 on: August 7, 2014, 11:57:52 pm »
But the Kurds like us

A classic American response. The place is on fucking fire but you're claiming credit for the one they're still fighting.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1057 on: August 8, 2014, 12:02:28 am »
But the Kurds like us

They loved the US when Magog Bush told them to rise up then left them holding their guns while Saddam took retribution. The loved the US when US supplied chemical weapons caused they and their families nervous systems to spasm and contort them into painful death.

Yeah, the Kurds love America

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1058 on: August 8, 2014, 12:03:03 am »
A classic American response. The place is on fucking fire but you're claiming credit for the one they're still fighting.
It's different arming people who like you than people who dislike you.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1059 on: August 8, 2014, 12:38:05 am »
It's different arming people who like you than people who dislike you.

I would have thought for America, there are simply too many to recall. The sluts of the arming game.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1060 on: August 8, 2014, 01:44:55 am »
But the Kurds like us
As long as the support keeps flowing in. Try turning that off and running a poll.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1061 on: August 8, 2014, 01:54:28 am »
Are you really seeing it "clearly"? There is no "subtle but consistent attempt" to link Islamist violence to all Muslims in this thread. Quite the opposite. The thread, right from the very start, is largely about the Muslim victims of Islamist violence. I would defy anyone to read the thread and not see this is true.

Some folks have got upset or annoyed that posters (like me) have linked Islamism with Islam. But I'm certain that no critic of Islamism has reduced the creed to Islam or claimed, for example, that Islamists are the true and authentic interpreters of the Koran.  My own argument - and Corky's too I think - is that the Koran is contradictory and open to multiple interpretations. We both happen to think it's a fictional work, but that's by the by. The important point is that it is self-evidently contradictory. It contains - like the Bible - nice bits and nasty bits, peaceful bits and violent bits. It is mad, therefore, to use the Koran, in all its incredible confusion, as the basis for building a modern society. The Islamists wish to do this. Ergo they are mad.

That's all.

If that's "Islamophobia" then fine, I'm an "Islamophobe". But it won't stop me from standing up for Muslims being murdered and butchered by the Islamists.
Do you think the other Holy book is a good basis for building a modern society ?

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1062 on: August 8, 2014, 02:44:58 am »
I would have thought for America, there are simply too many to recall. The sluts of the arming game.
Unlike giving weapons to the Libyans opposing Gaddafi or (some segments of) the Syrians opposing Assad, the Kurds are a group the US has worked closely with over the past decade+. And for the most part they seem to like the US and they're under threat from the most absurd, bloodthirsty group you could draw up. If we're not going to commit US forces to protect them (and Obama did just say we'll make some targeted air strikes against ISIS if they move on certain positions), we should at least give them what they need to protect themselves.

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1063 on: August 8, 2014, 05:49:19 am »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bsCZzpmbEcs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bsCZzpmbEcs</a>

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1064 on: August 8, 2014, 05:53:56 am »
You are being unncessarily harsh. How the hell do you know that I dont protest?

Also, I am least interested in winning a debate - I just ended my discussion with corkboy. I have been here for a few years and you can see how much I post and how much I simply read comments. If I was interested in 'debating' and 'winning'    I would be ratcheting up 30,000 odd  posts instead of the paltry 2000.

Its only because I share a common interest with people here that I feel the need to have a discussion with them about what I feel so strongly about. Atleast its an issue that needs discussing. Otherwise whats the point of having a football forum in the first place? Not like discussing transfer rumours is going to affect on what Brendan is going to buy.



Apologies if that was a bit harsh. The point still stands.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1065 on: August 8, 2014, 09:15:44 am »
Do you think the other Holy book is a good basis for building a modern society ?


I must have answered this twenty times in this thread.

"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1066 on: August 8, 2014, 09:22:23 am »
Many western nations had some similar notions not long ago, if not quite the same severity of punishments (add another century or two back for that). Progress is possible but not if talking about it is verboten.

Nobody expects the Sharia Inquisition.

Offline electricghost

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1067 on: August 8, 2014, 11:43:59 am »
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/who-yazidi-isis-iraq-religion-ethnicity-mountains


Iraq crisis: who are the Yazidis and why is Isis hunting them?

The Iraqi ethnic and religious minority descends from some of the region’s most ancient roots and face executions for a reputation as ‘devil worshippers’

    US considers air strikes and aid to Iraqis trapped on mountain


Reports that Islamic militants have trapped up to 40,000 members of Iraq’s minority communities have spurred the US into considering a military-led humanitarian action.

Most of the trapped people are members of the Yazidi religion, one of Iraq’s oldest minorities. They were forced to flee to Mount Sinjar in the Iraqi north-west region, or face slaughter by an encircling group of Islamic State (Isis) jihadists. The UN has said that roughly 40,000 people – many women and children – have taken refuge in nine locations on the mountain, “a craggy, mile-high ridge identified in local legend as the final resting place of Noah’s ark”.

Gruesome images of brutally slain people have emerged in the past week, as local officials say that at least 500 Yazidis, including 40 children, have been killed, and many more have been threatened with death. Roughly 130,000 residents of the Yazidi stronghold of Sinjar have fled to Dohuk, in Iraqi Kurdistan to the north, or to Irbil.

Reports of violence, repression and murder by Isis and other extremist groups have become increasingly prevalent in Iraq. Christians have also been targeted for their faith. The country’s largest Christian city was all but abandoned on Thursday, as Isis advanced through minority communities in the north-west.

On Thursday, the UNSC condemned the Isis attacks on the Yazidi community, saying those responsible could face trial for crimes against humanity.

Who are the Yazidis?

Estimates put the global number of Yazidis at around 700,000 people, with the vast majority of them concentrated in northern Iraq, in and around Sinjar.

A historically misunderstood group, the Yazidis are predominantly ethnically Kurdish, and have kept alive their syncretic religion for centuries, despite many years of oppression and threatened extermination.

The ancient religion is rumoured to have been founded by an 11th century Ummayyad sheikh, and is derived from Zoroastrianism (an ancient Persian faith founded by a philosopher), Christianity and Islam. The religion has taken elements from each, ranging from baptism (Christianity) to circumcision (Islam) to reverence of fire as a manifestation from God (derived from Zoroastrianism) and yet remains distinctly non-Abrahamic. This derivative quality has often led the Yazidis to be referred to as a sect.

At the core of the Yazidis’ marginalization is their worship of a fallen angel, Melek Tawwus, or Peacock Angel, one of the seven angels that take primacy in their beliefs. Unlike the fall from grace of Satan, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, Melek Tawwus was forgiven and returned to heaven by God. The importance of Melek Tawwus to the Yazidis has given them an undeserved reputation for being devil-worshippers – a notoriety that, in the climate of extremism gripping Iraq, has turned life-threatening.

Under Ottoman rule in the 18th and 19th centuries alone, the Yazidis were subject to 72 genocidal massacres. More recently in 2007, hundreds of Yazidis were killed as a spate of car bombs ripped through their stronghold in northern Iraq. With numbers of dead as close to 800, according to the Iraqi Red Crescent, this was one of the single deadliest events to take place during the American-led invasion.

The Yazidis had been denounced as infidels by Al-Qaida in Iraq, a predecessor of Isis, which sanctioned their indiscriminate killing.

Vian Dakhil, a Yazidi MP in Iraq, broke down in tears on Wednesday, as she called on the parliament and the international community to “Save us! Save us!” from Isis.

Researcher Cale Salih (@callysally) interviewed the Yazidis’ spiritual leader Baba Sheikh for the New York Times last month. She wrote:

    The rise of Islamic fundamentalism more broadly has pushed thousands of Yazidis to seek asylum in Europe. According to some estimates, 70,000 people, or about 15% of the Yazidi population in Iraq, fled the country. For a religion that does not accept converts and strongly discourages exogamy, the assimilation of Yazidi youth in Europe threatens the faith’s continued existence. “People have gone out of fear of attacks or fear of racism. This makes it hard to protect the faith,” said Baba Sheikh. [...]

    For the past several years, Baba Sheikh, the Yazidis’ spiritual leader, tells me he has canceled the official yearly religious ceremony at Lalesh temple, the holy site of the Yazidis, out of fear of attacks.

Lalesh has reportedly been turned into a refuge for internally displaced Yazidis.
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

Offline Corkboy

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Offline kavah

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1069 on: August 8, 2014, 04:13:13 pm »
Obama authorizes targeted airstrikes in Iraq against Islamic militants, along with airdrops

War on ISIS.

Maybe worth its own thread.

1 million+ displaced fleeing from these murderous knobheads. 500 Brits amongst the ranks of ISIS according to CNN

Offline nyctex

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1070 on: August 8, 2014, 04:19:52 pm »
Quote




A black flag with white Arabic writing, similar to those flown by jihadist groups, was flying at the entrance of an east London housing state near Canary Wharf.

In a highly provocative gesture, the emblem was planted on top of the gates of the Will Crooks estate on Poplar High Street, and is surrounded by flags of Palestine and slogans.




The flag bears similar writing to the jihadi flags that have been flown by the extremist group in Iraq and other jihadi groups since the 1990s. When the estate was approached last night, a group of about 20 Asian youths swore at Guardian journalists and told them to leave the area immediately. One youth threatened to smash a camera.

When a passerby tried to take a picture of the flag on a phone, one of the gang asked him if he was Jewish. The passerby replied: "Would it make a difference?" The youth said: "Yes, it fucking would." Asked if the flag was an Isis flag, one local man said: "It is just the flag of Allah." But another man asked: "So what if it is?"

One local man said that the flag has been there for several days. "People were taking photos of it last night," he said. A Metropolitan police spokesman said on Thursday that they had received no complaints about offensive flags in the Tower Hamlets area. The Dutch government has banned the public display of the Isis flag, but it is not illegal in the UK.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london

And apparently supporters in the UK.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1071 on: August 8, 2014, 04:25:58 pm »
Terrible to see the name of the great Will Crooks being associated with racists like that.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1072 on: August 8, 2014, 06:09:44 pm »
F*cked

Report from Iraq: families throwing children from a mountain to keep them from terrorists

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2014/08/report-from-iraq-families-throwing-children-from-a-mountain-to-keep-them-from-terrorists/
;D  Mate of mine and me are the same, everyone swears we are brothers when we're out. He calls me slaphead, I call him slaphead, so when I see him I go "slap" and he replies "slap. People be looking and thinking what the f**k are these 2 on  ;D
but he's a blue nose, so he's a c*nt
 
as per "Slaphead" on the 10th May 2018

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1073 on: August 8, 2014, 06:13:11 pm »
Just heard Robert Fisk on the radio, wondering where Obama's airstrikes were when ISIS were killing Muslims.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1074 on: August 8, 2014, 06:14:44 pm »
Just heard Robert Fisk on the radio, wondering where Obama's airstrikes were when ISIS were killing Muslims.

Fisk would have been the first to complain if the USA had bombed them back in July. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1076 on: August 8, 2014, 06:40:05 pm »
Fisk would have been the first to complain if the USA had bombed them back in July. 

Now, now. I am aware you and La Fisk don't see eye to eye but he makes a decent point. There's a perfectly rational explanation, too. Obama comes from an overwhelmingly Christian nation, so when Christians are getting terrorised, it gets more airtime and he gets more grief. He'd never admit that, mind, or the fact that so many Americans still think he's a Muslim probably has something to do with it too.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1077 on: August 8, 2014, 06:46:44 pm »
Was Fisk calling for American intervention?
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1078 on: August 8, 2014, 06:52:05 pm »
Was Fisk calling for American intervention?

Sorry, that's all I heard so I don't know.

Meanwhile, Obama is more popular among Muslims than any other religious group in the US. Oh, and the Mormons hate him, the sore losing fuckers.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1079 on: August 8, 2014, 06:53:52 pm »
Sorry, that's all I heard so I don't know.

Meanwhile, Obama is more popular among Muslims than any other religious group in the US. Oh, and the Mormons hate him, the sore losing fuckers.

Excuse my ignorance but why do the Mormons hate him so much?
;D  Mate of mine and me are the same, everyone swears we are brothers when we're out. He calls me slaphead, I call him slaphead, so when I see him I go "slap" and he replies "slap. People be looking and thinking what the f**k are these 2 on  ;D
but he's a blue nose, so he's a c*nt
 
as per "Slaphead" on the 10th May 2018