Topic: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)

[ljycb]

So I would like to just start off by apologising to the moderators. On the Politics Thread, I started going on about how I have seen instances of what I believe to be transphobia on this forum that had not been punished. As a result of me hijacking that thread, it has now been locked and so discussion has been stifled ahead of what would have been a big weekend for discourse as the Labour Party elects its new leader.

I have received a message which in no uncertain terms has warned me about my future conduct on this forum, and I accept this wholeheartedly. If I am going to accuse the moderators of not doing enough on a particular issue, then it is on me to justify the accusation and provide them with an alternative approach - I have failed to do that adequately. I appreciate and acknowledge that the moderators on this forum volunteer their spare time to make this place as friendly as possible, and I also know now that if I had confronted them in a more constructive manner then they would have been happy to listen to my concerns. I am sorry for causing so much unnecessary hassle.

A good solution mentioned in the Politics Thread before it was locked was to create a separate thread for any discussion related to trans rights, so here it is.

I am a cisgender male. Some of my friends include trans women, trans men and people who identify as non-binary. The last couple of years have seen great steps forward for trans rights and it is definitely true that in 2020 there is more of an acceptance of this than there was even ten years ago. However, the debate has been quite toxic (you can see that from some of my posts in the Politics Thread, accusing someone of "transphobia" is not conducive to a good argument) from both sides, and the people who the debate never seems to benefit is trans people. Perhaps having a dedicated area of the forum for this can provide a more fruitful discussion? I don't know, let's see.

[TepidT2O]

Never had an issue with anyone defining themselves how they want.  We should treat people with the personal dignity that we ourselves would like to be treated with.

I think issues come for women however.

Accepting that every person who identities as a woman actually being a woman.  It assumes every person who does so does so without malicious  intent.

As such it is open to abuse by men who do so vexatiously to exploit and attack vulnerable women who can otherwise be protected by necessary serration in some circumstances.


And I’m not sure how you square that circle.

[Snail]

Never had an issue with anyone defining themselves how they want.  We should treat people with the personal dignity that we ourselves would like to be treated with.

I think issues come for women however.

Accepting that every person who identities as a woman actually being a woman.  It assumes every person who does so does so without malicious  intent.

As such it is open to abuse by men who do so vexatiously to exploit and attack vulnerable women who can otherwise be protected by necessary serration in some circumstances.


And I’m not sure how you square that circle.

Women get attacked by men all the time regardless. I think the chances of someone “pretending to identify as a woman” in order to harm women - when let’s face it, that’s perfectly easy enough to do in society as it is - are so infinitesimal that it is not a valid reason to deny people their rights. As a woman and a feminist who has suffered abuse from men in the past, I’m quite tired of other women/feminists being concerned about this on my behalf.

Things like this sentence, by the way

I think issues come for women however.

are part of the problem, and I’m not having a go at you. Trans women are women, and to make that distinction is to imply that they aren’t... which is sort of the whole issue, really.

[J_Kopite]

Women get attacked by men all the time regardless. I think the chances of someone “pretending to identify as a woman” in order to harm women - when let’s face it, that’s perfectly easy enough to do in society as it is - are so infinitesimal that it is not a valid reason to deny people their rights. As a woman and a feminist who has suffered abuse from men in the past, I’m quite tired of other women/feminists being concerned about this on my behalf.

Things like this sentence, by the way

are part of the problem, and I’m not having a go at you. Trans women are women, and to make that distinction is to imply that they aren’t... which is sort of the whole issue, really.

Can you define what a "woman" is please, without it being a circular definition? No snark.

Also Sian - what rights are trans people currently being denied in the UK in 2020?

[Zeb]

redacted

In your view, what do the proposed changes to self-id do which is objectionable which the Gender Recognition Act doesn't?

(And clearly we're all trying to learn rather than snipe - the debate has been horribly toxic.)

[J_Kopite]

In your view, what do the proposed changes to self-id do which is objectionable which the Gender Recognition Act doesn't?

(And clearly we're all trying to learn rather than snipe - the debate has been horribly toxic.)

Self-ID lets people like Karen White "identify" their way into attacking women in a women's prison: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html

Not one woman should have to worry about someone with a penis invading spaces intended for them, not fucking least rape crisis centres and refuges for female victims of domestic violence.

[TepidT2O]

Women get attacked by men all the time regardless. I think the chances of someone “pretending to identify as a woman” in order to harm women - when let’s face it, that’s perfectly easy enough to do in society as it is - are so infinitesimal that it is not a valid reason to deny people their rights. As a woman and a feminist who has suffered abuse from men in the past, I’m quite tired of other women/feminists being concerned about this on my behalf.

Things like this sentence, by the way

are part of the problem, and I’m not having a go at you. Trans women are women, and to make that distinction is to imply that they aren’t... which is sort of the whole issue, really.

Thanks for the response Sian.  That makes a lot of sense.

However, is it right to say ‘are‘ women?  Is that not simpler than reality?

For example, my wife has worked with a person who did identify as a woman.  But not every day.  Some days they choose to identify as a woman, some as a man.

I don’t think it’s an issue that can be solved by absolutist statements and is perhaps better dealt with by us re-examining the right to individuality and self determination.  I think this may also be easier off the general public to accept.  I suspect most get lost when people start discussing cis gender and trans genders etc and it gets more confusing than is helpful for mass understanding.

Then again, I’m not trans-gender and of course, trying to put yourselves in someone else’s shoes is always difficult to do. 

[Zeb]

Self-ID lets people like Karen White "identify" their way into attacking women in a women's prison: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html

Not one woman should have to worry about someone with a penis invading spaces intended for them, not fucking least rape crisis centres and refuges for female victims of domestic violence.

Question I'm asking is that the Gender Recognition Act has been there for 16 years now. So I'm not sure what's sparking the concern here rather than at any point in the past 16 years? How do women's refuges manage now? Why would self-id alter whatever safety assessments etc. they carry out? Does that make sense? It just puzzles me to see how strong the reaction is to making it a little less of a hurdle to be recognised by the state as a man or a woman.

[TepidT2O]

Thank you for being the first person to respond.

This article I have linked below from 2018 is quite good.

https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4090-i-m-not-transphobic-but-a-feminist-case-against-the-feminist-case-against-trans-inclusivity

Thanks, that’s interesting.

It’s a complex area.  A really complex area.

[J_Kopite]

Question I'm asking is that the Gender Recognition Act has been there for 16 years now. So I'm not sure what's sparking the concern here rather than at any point in the past 16 years? How do women's refuges manage now? Why would self-id alter whatever safety assessments etc. they carry out? Does that make sense? It just puzzles me to see how strong the reaction is to making it a little less of a hurdle to be recognised by the state as a man or a woman.

As I understand it, a certain section of activists (many trans, many not, and those who are trans do not entirely represent the trans community it must be said) are pushing for changes to the law so that the public HAVE to accept everyone's self identification with no questions asked. It would be a legal right to have your own identity recognised as YOU described it, not what objective reality tells us.

That means, again as I understand it, I would just need to self-identify (ie, tell them - "I'm a woman") for that to mean I'm accepted as a woman and allowed into women's only spaces. That despite the fact I have nothing in my physical constitution that indicates I'm of the female sex.

[Zeb]

As I understand it, a certain section of activists (many trans, many not, and those who are trans do not entirely represent the trans community it must be said) are pushing for changes to the law so that the public HAVE to accept everyone's self identification with no questions asked. It would be a legal right to have your own identity recognised as YOU described it, not what objective reality tells us.

That means, again as I understand it, I would just need to self-identify (ie, tell them - "I'm a woman") for that to mean I'm accepted as a woman and allowed into women's only spaces. That despite the fact I have nothing in my physical constitution that indicates I'm of the female sex.

Interesting. My understanding was that the last proposals would still allow for individual risk assessments and for groups to still, where proportionate, set their own requirements for access under the Equalities Act. But that's half remembered from a lecture by a human rights lawyer on the issue a couple of years back when Tories were consulting on changes. Obviously there's a bigger debate around that, perhaps as you're alluding too, but it seems self-id has become a catch-all phrase for it?

[JerseyKloppite]

Anyone that supports self-id does not care about women or their rights, I don't know how anyone can dispute that claim.

Throwing broad generalisations like this around is extremely unhelpful. The OP has gone to great lengths to encourage a debate on this, if you’re going to generalise then back it up or your posts will be deleted.

[WhoHe]

There will be few men left in men's prisons if you can self ID as a woman.

[J_Kopite]

Throwing broad generalisations like this around is extremely unhelpful. The OP has gone to great lengths to encourage a debate on this, if you’re going to generalise then back it up or your posts will be deleted.

I fail to see how it is a generalisation though, surely its a self-evident truth? Whether by ignorance or otherwise, women rights suffer under the principle of self-ID. Why should I, for example, be allowed to identify my way into a women's weightlifting competition, trampling over all the women who should have the right to a fair competition? Or apply for a female-only grant or scholarship at university?

[Elmo!]

As I understand it, a certain section of activists (many trans, many not, and those who are trans do not entirely represent the trans community it must be said) are pushing for changes to the law so that the public HAVE to accept everyone's self identification with no questions asked. It would be a legal right to have your own identity recognised as YOU described it, not what objective reality tells us.

That means, again as I understand it, I would just need to self-identify (ie, tell them - "I'm a woman") for that to mean I'm accepted as a woman and allowed into women's only spaces. That despite the fact I have nothing in my physical constitution that indicates I'm of the female sex.

I don't know what the proposed changes are in England but the proposals in Scotland were that as trans person you would have to have lived in their acquired gender for 3 months rather than 2 years in order to get a GRC. You can't just flip back and forthj as you please between genders. Even then there would be another 3 month reflection period after submitting an application before the person can proceed. It would be a criminal offence to make a false application.

[Elmo!]

I fail to see how it is a generalisation though, surely its a self-evident truth? Whether by ignorance or otherwise, women rights suffer under the principle of self-ID. Why should I, for example, be allowed to identify my way into a women's weightlifting competition, trampling over all the women who should have the right to a fair competition? Or apply for a female-only grant or scholarship at university?

If your original claim was the case, why do the women's organizations Close the Gap, Engender, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women's Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance all support the proposed changes to the GRA in Scotland?

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/14/scotland-gender-recognition-laws-reform-backed-by-womens-groups/

[vblfc]

Sorry if what I write here is obvious - just thinking out loud on an important topic -
Maybe this whole issue is not settled for us because we don't take the time to resolve all the issues when our personal fears and concerns arise. We have moved forward a lot on gay rights etc but even the fact we have this thread means that trans, or certain forms of trans preference have still been considered outside the norm and unfortunately now get positioned somewhere in some sort of "normal acceptability" spectrum after gay and before something else we haven't come to terms with yet. 
Surely the issues of self id can be tabled, discussed, understood, accommodated, including in law and then accepted.  We need to resolve the details in these complex topics.
The issue of abuse of the law in order to e.g. access female private spaces etc. needs a layer of rules that can best represent what is fair, accommodating and manageable (I know that is complex and will result in some compromise). It should be dealt with same as any other law that gets stated and then gets broken. That issue is important but feels a bit of a result of the core of this.
It's my view that we need to progress to a level where everyone should be allowed to be their own sexuality. We have had a tendency to leave important minorities, that we should understand, accommodate and accept, out of what we decide and accept as normal.  Worse still, we don't fully understand the impact of this, where normal people become excluded, confused, abused, scared, full of self doubt and resentment etc. based on the impact of others views of their normality. 

[J_Kopite]

If your original claim was the case, why do the women's organizations Close the Gap, Engender, Equate Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women's Aid, Women 50:50 and Zero Tolerance all support the proposed changes to the GRA in Scotland?

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/14/scotland-gender-recognition-laws-reform-backed-by-womens-groups/

I don't know, but it strikes me as not only very bizarre but a little worrying don't you think?

[Something Worse]

I don't know, but that is fucking bizarre and a little worrying

You know what's better for women than women's advocacy groups?

[J_Kopite]

You know what's better for women than women's advocacy groups?

Softened my languaged a bit in that post, but no, I don't know why any group concerned about keeping women safe would allow men to enter women-only spaces, many of which are set up for women fleeing violent men.

[J_Kopite]

I don't know what the proposed changes are in England but the proposals in Scotland were that as trans person you would have to have lived in their acquired gender for 3 months rather than 2 years in order to get a GRC. You can't just flip back and forthj as you please between genders. Even then there would be another 3 month reflection period after submitting an application before the person can proceed. It would be a criminal offence to make a false application.

What is "living in the acquired gender" under this definition, completed sex (not gender, important to note, although people often do get those mixed up) reassignment surgery? I'd be more comfortable with that if so I think.

[Elmo!]

I don't know, but it strikes me as not only very bizarre but a little worrying don't you think?

No it doesn't worry me at all. I'd be more worried if the governent proposals went against what these groups advocated.

[Elmo!]

What is "living in the acquired gender" under this definition, completed sex (not gender, important to note, although people often do get those mixed up) reassignment surgery? I'd be more comfortable with that if so I think.

No there is no requirement to have reassignement surgery. You just have to live as a women (for someone born a man) or vice versa, and it would be a criminal offence to apply under false pretences.

[J_Kopite]

No there is no requirement to have reassignement surgery. You just have to live as a women (for someone born a man) or vice versa, and it would be a criminal offence to apply under false pretences.

What does living as a woman mean? If there's a definition I'd like to see one!

[Iska]

I’m reluctant to engage with this at all because it gets so toxic so quickly, but I have thought about it a lot over the past few years.  Ultimately I haven’t shifted at all from my initial scepticism, and I’ve concluded that I simply reject the fundamental premise here - that there are men who are born in women’s bodies, and vice versa.  I don’t think there is such a thing as gender, separate from one’s sex - ‘men’ and ‘women’ are infinitely diverse things, but they are different things.  It appears to me more likely to be a mental issue around self-perception, and the huge increase among teenage girls where (anecdotally) it seems to have taken the place of anorexia, would accord with this.  As do accounts I’ve read from those who have ‘de-transitioned’.

I find the attempts to control language around this very sinister.  ‘Trans women are women’ might conceivably be an end point that we get to, by deeming it to be true to address the issue (though I certainly wouldn’t support that), but it isn’t literally true and can’t be the starting point for discussion, because then the end-point is predetermined - if trans women are women, of course they should be treated as women.  (PS trans men barely ever feature in this debate)

Anyway like I said, I don’t particularly want to engage and I’m not criticising anyone here for their views, but I wanted to set this out because it’s useful to have a bit of reasoned dissent lest the thread does turn into an echo chamber.

[TepidT2O]

What’s the difference between sex and gender?

Because we have no problem saying a dog is male or female...

I struggle not to do the same with humans when we talk about their physiology.  But that doesn’t mean we can’t respect people’s wishes to be identified as one thing or another.l.

[Elmo!]

I struggle with the definitions and linguistics of it as well, and the idea of defining what a women is from a gender point of view rather than biological sex difficult.

But ultimately for me, look at the suicide rates for transgender people and the difference it can make when they are treated fairly and equally, and those issues go out the window for me. It doesn't hurt me if someone wants to identify a women, so I have no problem accepting them as a women.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence that men will pretend to be women in order to get in to women only spaces to commit sexual offences, so on that point I am happy to follow the likes of the groups I referenced above.

[J_Kopite]

I have yet to see any convincing evidence that men will pretend to be women in order to get in to women only spaces to commit sexual offences, so on that point I am happy to follow the likes of the groups I referenced above.

All you need to do is look at reply 6 in this thread.

[Bobsackamano]

What’s the difference between sex and gender?

Because we have no problem saying a dog is male or female...

I struggle not to do the same with humans when we talk about their physiology.  But that doesn’t mean we can’t respect people’s wishes to be identified as one thing or another.l.

I think the dog thing is a red herring, do dogs have the level of conciousness where a male dog would think "im really a female dog". A lot of them have their balls chopped off anyway.

The Trans debate is an absolute minefield with legitimate claims for protection clashing and i for one wouldnt want to stick my oar in too deeply, especially as im a male. I feel this debate should be guided mainly by women (trans or not) as they are the ones with clashing interests.

However ive a few observations. I have a friend who transitioned and she (now) has had big issues with the lack of dating opportunities. She has a very manly build and the men she fancies (both gay and straight) are simply not interested. You can bring as many laws in as you like but if you are a big butch fella and you transition into a woman you really need to know that sexually your opportunities moving forward could be very limited.

Sexuality, though inceasingly fluid, operates in a very binary way, "do i want to fuck that person or not", and most of us will change our behaviour through our lives to expand our opportunities for sex, whether thats going the gym or making ourselves less scruffy. I think this needs to be factored into the trans discussion, especially for children who may want to transition before developing their sexual preferences.

[Elmo!]

All you need to do is look at reply 6 in this thread.

That is not convincing evidence, that is a single example. I'm talking proper studies.

How many men have been raped in prison since that incident occurred?

What are the statistics on trans women being raped by men in a mans prison? Lots of other things to consider.

[Kashinoda]

Where I think the issues have been amplified somewhat is the partisan views of the hard left and right which have bled somewhat into everything nowadays.

I've seen enough people make the argument that if you would flat out refuse to be in a relationship with a transgender person then you are transphobic. I don't think opinions like that help further any meaningful discussion, and I don't think views like this necessarily come from the trans community but more from the loud fringes of the left obsessed with identity politics.

Then we have things like the 'Bathroom bill' which make little sense to me. Extra public restrooms for 0.3% of the population when we already have disabled rooms non-binary/trans people can use. Why not just relabel disabled toilets to 'alternate' toilets or similar? Seems like a simple way to deal with this, but I understand the stigma involved in doing so.

It's things like this that make me want to generally avoid any discussion on the topic.

[J_Kopite]

That is not convincing evidence, that is a single example. I'm talking proper studies.

How many men have been raped in prison since that incident occurred?

What are the statistics on trans women being raped by men in a mans prison? Lots of other things to consider.

Blimey.

Why should anyone have to accept this happening even once?

[Elmo!]

Where I think the issues have been amplified somewhat is the partisan views of the hard left and right which have bled somewhat into everything nowadays.

I've seen enough people make the argument that if you would flat out refuse to be in a relationship with a transgender person then you are transphobic. I don't think opinions like that help further any meaningful discussion, and I don't think views like this necessarily come from the trans community but more from the loud fringes of the left obsessed with identity politics.

Then we have things like the 'Bathroom bill' which make little sense to me. Extra public restrooms for 0.3% of the population when we already have disabled rooms non-binary/trans people can use. Why not just relabel disabled toilets to 'alternate' toilets or similar? Seems like a simple way to deal with this, but I understand the stigma involved in doing so.

It's things like this that make me want to generally avoid any discussion on the topic.

I do think there is an issue where the so called 'woke' people - who I do in the main agree with on trans rights - often cannot accept that this is a difficult subject that is moving rapidly over the last couple of years and it will take time for people to adjust.

A lot of people seem unable to accept that and if you are not completely onboard with all proposed changes you are labelled a transphobe. Like you it turns me off getting involved in the whole debate.

[Elmo!]

Blimey.

Why should anyone have to accept this happening even once?

It's an argument for better protection for everyone in prisons.

Why should we accept anyone being raped in prison at all? Men are raped in male prisons all the time. Trans woman would be raped if they were in male prisons no doubt.

[Snail]

Blimey.

Why should anyone have to accept this happening even once?

We’ve had to accept getting raped for a long time, buddy.

[J_Kopite]

Allowing dangerous men in women's prisons or other women's only spaces would:

1. Make better
2. Make worse

The occurrence of rape?

[Snail]

Allowing dangerous men in women's prisons or other women's only spaces would:

1. Make better
2. Make worse

The occurrence of rape?

3. Make no difference.

Because a rapist is a rapist. If trans men or women who happened to also be rapists were sent to male or female prisons based on their genitalia (rather than gender) they would probably still assault someone. There is absolutely plenty of male-male and female-female rape that goes on as it is.

[Max_powers]

Allowing dangerous men in women's prisons or other women's only spaces would:

1. Make better
2. Make worse

The occurrence of rape?

Could you provide any statistics on how many transgender prisoners are there that would want to be moved to women's prisons? What is the relative risk of this type of sexual violence compared to other violence etc taking place in prisons?

I mean trans people are a very small percentage of overall population. Yet some like to make it out that this will lead to some epidemic of men (for some reason only men) identifying as women to get in women's washrooms/ prisons etc. for sexual pleasure. Yet I have seen very little data to show that this is a major problem.
 

[Elmo!]

The idea that as a man, who has decided they want to rape a woman, is going to assess their various options and decide that their best option to rape someone is to pretend they are a woman for 3 months in order to get a GRC to be recognised as a woman, so that they can enter a womens toilet, which no one was goign to stop them entering anyway, is fanciful. There are far easier options for them (sadly).

[Snail]

The idea that as a man, who has decided they want to rape a woman, is going to assess their various options and decide that their best option to rape someone is to pretend they are a woman for 3 months in order to get a GRC to be recognised as a woman, so that they can enter a womens toilet, which no one was goign to stop them entering anyway, is fanciful. There are far easier options for them (sadly).

Exactly. Much easier to get together with your mate and spike two women’s drinks, as happened to me and my mate when we were 18. I’ve got a non-binary mate I went to school with and they have to deal with people assuming they’re somehow dangerous and it’s absolutely awful.