Author Topic: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April  (Read 141703 times)

Offline Harinder

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« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 11:45:52 am by Harinder »
Just clicked on the main board and my virus scanner came back with this

"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


:lmao

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Offline redmark

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1041 on: April 28, 2016, 11:44:11 am »
the lengths they went to to cover this up

makes you wonder what else they did in SYP

When one starts to add up the various scandals and inquiries (and those still demanded but ignored), let alone the decades of little stories in Private Eye and more recently internet bloggers, you realise it's not just SYP - and it's not all particularly 'historical', either.

Institutionalised racism, the miners' strike, countless sex abuse cases, the 'undercover' scandals, the SPG and 'politicisation' of the police in industrial disputes and against peaceful demonstrations, Hillsborough, Northern Ireland and the Birmingham/Guildford miscarriages of justice, coverup of straightforward corruption and criminal activity. There still persists a reputation of a wonderful independent neutral service corrupted by a few bad apples - and those in a dim, dark, distant past.

There's a hell of a series of books to be written on UK policing (for decades) at some point in the next half century, if we ever allow ourselves to critically examine entire institutions rather than treat every exposed example separately and not representative.
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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1042 on: April 28, 2016, 11:49:33 am »


makes you wonder what else they did in SYP

They caught the Yorkshire Ripper.

The very same Yorkshire Ripper that was interviewed 9 times by SYP, who went on to rape and murder 13 women and attempted to murder another 7 and was stopped by pure chance by two police constables, in what was once described by a separate forces investigating officer "a fluke".

Yes they, the SYP got their man. Well done them and let them not forget that they, caught the Yorkshire Ripper. Despite this slight inconvenience of looming class actions relating the lying and pergury over the deaths of 96 football fans with its force in turmoil and impending disbandment -They 'caught' the Yorkshire Ripper.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1044 on: April 28, 2016, 12:16:24 pm »
Police face Hillsborough families action

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36159195?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Families of football fans who died in the Hillsborough disaster are pursuing High Court misconduct action against the South Yorkshire and West Midlands police forces, lawyers have said.

The inquests jury found victims were unlawfully killed and there were police failings.

Families have lodged claims of misfeasance in public office, said Saunders Law Solicitors.

Legal action began in 2015 but was suspended pending the conclusions.


https://twitter.com/Saunders_Law/status/725627885827006465/photo/1

http://www.saunders.co.uk/our-work/hillsborough/

UPDATED 28 April 2016 – Our work for the Hillsborough Family Support Group

96

We have been acting for many of the Hillsborough families for some years and welcome the inquest jury findings that the 96 were unlawfully killed by South Yorkshire Police, and that neither the 96 nor the fans were in any way to blame. The stark truth about how the 96 died has at last been officially recognised and the families’ long campaign is vindicated. After truth, the families now seek Justice, and look to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) and Operation Resolve to work with the Crown Prosecution Service in bringing merited criminal charges relating to the unlawful killings.

In addition to the police wrongdoing that caused the deaths, there is evidence of the systematic cover up intended to transfer the blame for what happened from South Yorkshire Police to the innocent, by spreading lies, doctoring evidence, pressurising witnesses and suppressing the truth. The evidence points to abuse on an industrial scale by both South Yorkshire and West Midlands Police, beyond any “one bad apple” analysis. In addition to actions by individuals, the evidence suggests institutional misfeasance by these bodies directed against our clients and the fans generally.

Our clients believe that Justice will only be established through accountability. Accordingly we issued High Court Claims for Misfeasance in Public Office against South Yorkshire and West Midlands Police in 2015 on behalf of several hundred of those affected. The claims concern the cover up and actions intended to wrongly blame the deceased and Liverpool Football Club supporters for the tragedy, for which there has still been no proper admission or apology. Despite a half hearted admission after publication of the Hillsborough Independent Report, we now learn South Yorkshire Police spent an estimated £19m of tax payers’ money on defending the indefensible at the inquest.

Misfeasance in Public Office is a cause of action in the civil courts of England and Wales. It is an action against the holder of a public office, alleging that the office-holder has misused or abused their power. A police force is vicariously liable for the Misfeasance of its officers.

We hope to meet the IPCC and Operation Resolve in the near future. They have been investigating allegations against individual officers, and so have material relevant to the misfeasance action. Our clients also wish to ensure that the right of any suspects to a fair criminal trial is not diminished by the misfeasance action.

After issuing the claims last year we secured a Contempt of Court Act order from a High Court Judge preventing publication of any information about the claims until the inquest ended, to avoid any risk of prejudice to the inquest. The claims were also stayed until the inquest verdicts were given, which was on 26th April 2016, and we now propose to move the claims forward to secure accountability.


Realising that this may be something that can't be discussed here; what's the reasoning on proceeding with this prior to conclusion of the ongoing criminal investigations? (Apart of course, from the matter of time) Or is this a more targeted action - focused on, say, the doctoring of statements and suppression of evidence put before the original inquest?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 12:25:01 pm by redmark »
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Offline redalways

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1045 on: April 28, 2016, 12:38:53 pm »
Police face Hillsborough families action

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36159195?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

The police lawyers funded by taxpayers money will be rubbing their hands. Win or lose they win.

Offline Mag Hull

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1046 on: April 28, 2016, 01:00:32 pm »
This from Suzanne Moore from the Guardian sums up exactly how I remember policing in the 80s:


The Hillsborough verdict shatters the fantasy that class war doesn’t exist

Suzanne Moore The ‘unlawful killing’ of the 96 football fans was a crime, committed in a very real conflict. The police, the establishment, parts of the press, they were all in it together

Finally, 27 long years later, the cold class contempt that Hillsborough came to signify is laid out for all to see. Those who died did not die because they were “animals” or drinking too much or behaving badly. They were unlawfully killed. Their families did not grieve too much because they were from Liverpool and therefore emotionally incontinent or full of working-class mawkishness; they grieved because they lost their loved ones in absolutely horrific circumstances. Still, to read the details of how these people died tightens my stomach. Of the 96 who died, 37 were teenagers. The reality is that the dead were all sorts of people from different backgrounds. But very quickly they became no longer individuals but part of a mob who somehow deserved this awful fate. As life was squeezed out of them, then too their humanity was taken from them by the police, by politicians and parts of the press.


The marathon campaign by the bereaved families and their supporters has been one class act. In the face of despair, there has been dignity. Yet we have to ask why it has taken so long for the truth to be acknowledged. It is surely to do with the way we do not like to talk about out-and-out class conflict. Instead, we are told that class hardly exists, except as an anthropological display to gawp at disdainfully on reality TV. The refusal of the establishment to countenance the level of police “coverup” is because “they” were indeed all in it together. This was more than a coverup. The police lied – they smeared the victims as some of them lay dying, testing even a 10-year-old’s blood for alcohol. All of this was relayed in the press so that the dead were reduced to the kind of rabble who urinated on and stole from each other. One of the extraordinary revelations is that it was the South Yorkshire police themselves who had a drinking problem, with bars in many of the stations .

But no one who remembers that time thought that the police were on “our” side to begin with. In the 80s, sides were demarcated explicitly. If the miners’ strike was our last civil war, then the police were clearly lined up against us. They did Thatcher’s dirty work, waving their overtime payslips in the face of striking miners. That symbolic violence was accompanied by real violence. Andy Burnham is absolutely right to ask about the links between Orgreave and Hillsborough. The South Yorkshire police, Burnham said “used the same underhand tactics against its own people in the aftermath of the miners’ strike that it would later use, to more deadly effect, against the people of Liverpool”.

In all this it must be said there were individual police officers who behaved decently, but the complicity between the police and parts of the conservative establishment remain horrifying. The confidence of Kelvin MacKenzie, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Bernard Ingham (who spoke of “tanked-up yobs”) still persists. Their apologies are a joke, still exhibiting the same contempt. Are we to accept MacKenzie was merely duped?


Liverpool never forgot or forgave Johnson and his ilk because it didn’t simply imagine itself under attack – it was under attack. As always the culture it produced understood this and laughed in the face of such demonisation. Johnson’s editorial accused Liverpool of wallowing in its victim status. As crushed economically as that city was in the 80s, it sensed its own power. Frankie Goes to Hollywood T-shirts read: “Frankie says arm the unemployed.”


It must be somewhat galling for those in power now to have to accept this ruling, for they do not hide their class contempt either. They have elevated it to actual policy: all schools must be modelled on the schools they went to, but with fewer resources. All hospitals must be run to make a profit. Taxes are for the little people. Those who don’t “get on” have only themselves to blame. An increasing range of theories come into play about why poor people are poor, which is never to do with lack of money but lack of civility. Or perhaps there is something wrong with their actual brains! Imagery of working-class people invariably invokes moral deprivation by showing a tendency to excess.

Social mobility, the supposed solution to all this, only allows the odd person to slip through the net. The middle class must simply hold on. Once there, one is required to be grateful (I am not) or merely chippy (I am). As I strain my ears to hear someone who talks like me on Radio 4 that isn’t in a drama about child abuse, I never know who I am to be grateful to.

Sure, class contempt works both ways, though it is impolite to show it except by gentle humour. Rage is so 1980s. We must not discriminate against the posh apparently, though class doesn’t really exist any more. As more and more people tell us it no longer matters, we see more and more of our creative stars were privately educated, that our leaders come from the same tiny enclave. Retro-feudalism.

This fantasy should be well and truly shattered by the Hillsborough verdict. This was a war crime committed in a war that was not then, nor is now, a figment of our imagination. Class war.
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Offline E2K

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1047 on: April 28, 2016, 01:43:21 pm »
It truly is a terrifying, vicious world we live in. That something so obvious should take so long to be acknowledged and accepted, that so many should have to immerse so much of their time, spirit and energy into a 27-year struggle that should never have been necessary, and all while they carried that terrible load on their shoulders, it’s cruel to a degree that defies easy explanation.

Some say it's a different world now than it was then, and there's no doubt that a lot has changed for the better. Still, the lies only began to crumble in any meaningful way as recently as 2012, and in 2016, as recently as a couple of days ago, the perpetrators of this tragedy were still being allowed to deny with impunity. Some will continue to do so.

Although concepts such as truth and justice are said to be basic rights as theoretically accessible as fresh air, in practice they are clearly a long way from that. And so it’s no exaggeration to say that the families and those who worked with them have achieved something extraordinary, and humbling. Against odds that were as close to insurmountable as you’ll ever see, they prevailed. They are a credit to themselves, their city and, most of all, to those they lost.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 01:46:51 pm by E2K »
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Offline 4pool

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1048 on: April 28, 2016, 03:24:01 pm »
alex thomson ‏@alextomo 6h6 hours ago
Operation Resolve - 74 SYP officers who were at Hillsborough have refused to co-operate with the criminal investigation so far
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Offline Dubred

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1049 on: April 28, 2016, 03:45:10 pm »
alex thomson ‏@alextomo 6h6 hours ago
Operation Resolve - 74 SYP officers who were at Hillsborough have refused to co-operate with the criminal investigation so far

Shocking, but not surprising.  Do these people have no decency or empathy?

Offline sinnermichael

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1051 on: April 28, 2016, 03:57:42 pm »
alex thomson ‏@alextomo 6h6 hours ago
Operation Resolve - 74 SYP officers who were at Hillsborough have refused to co-operate with the criminal investigation so far
I can never understand how that is allowed.

When I was in the RAF we had no option other than to co-operate if asked,surely that should be the same with the Police!

Offline MichaelA

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1052 on: April 28, 2016, 04:05:58 pm »
I can never understand how that is allowed.

At this point it's down to Operation Resolve to find evidence. I would guess that if the investigation finds sufficient evidence of wrong doing, the next step would be to issue charges against specific individuals. Those individuals would then be interviewed under caution. There's a wide spectrum of reasons why these 74 who have refused to co-operate. It's entirely possible that they have chosen this course of action because they were not involved in any direct action on the day, or having seen or heard the questions have decided that they have nothing of value to add at this time. That's possible...

Offline CornerFlag

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1053 on: April 28, 2016, 04:24:21 pm »
I went to uni today and I generally take a shortcut through St. Johns to walk up Skelhorne St.  From there you see the side elevation of St. George's and, when you get through, a bit of the front facing onto Lime St.  After I'd finished twiddling my thumbs I walked back through that route and as I was passing the station I thought to myself "I'll go and see the steps".

It overwhelmed me, completely and utterly.  From the minute I got there I started looking at the scarves, shirts, flowers, messages and I was just there taking it all in but not really at the same time.  So many teams seemed to be represented; Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Arsenal, Brighton, Inter Milan, AC Milan, West Brom, Juventus and many others I cannot recall...

Then there was the tributes, the little notes from people passing on their support, their love for those they've never met (and of course never will) and the support for the strength of what the families have gone through.  One bit really knocked me.  One of the top-most stairs that had tributes had a picture with a single note to it.  A picture of two people with a name, a three digit number and "Dad".  That got me.  It'd started raining by that point but one or two of the drops on my cheeks were more saline than the rest.

Before going I walked around one more time, taking in the tributes to all those affected before walking down William Brown Street to the memorial by the tunnel.  I noticed the different scarves around the top (A 'The New Saints' one meeting my eye first of all) tied together.  I walked around and looked at the tributes and noticed one more thing at the front before a lady stopped and talked to me briefly; now I'm not the best when it comes to talking but because I've followed it all I was able to talk a little bit to her, very pleasant woman.  After we conversed a little I brought her attention to that photograph at the front.  A red 'LOVE' frame with the snapshot of a weakened lady in a wheelchair with a younger lad behind her.  Anne Williams.  I said to the lady I was stood with I wish I was a millionth as strong as that lady was, and is.  She agreed before leaving shortly afterwards.  After one more look at the names and ages I made my way home, something I wish those 96 people could have been able to do 27 years ago.

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Offline 4pool

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1054 on: April 28, 2016, 04:49:47 pm »
CornerFlag.

Touching.

Well in.
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Offline darcy171

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1055 on: April 28, 2016, 05:58:11 pm »
I'm 26 years old. Born the year after. Granted I knew people who were there (the old man), but I wasn't. I wasn't even alive when it happened. I didn't lose anybody, or have to go through the awful aftermath. But I don't mind admitting, on numerous occasions throughout this fight, I've cried. And this week has been no different.

I only say this because, if someone who wasn't even alive can be brought to tears by this, I have absolutely no clue how the families, the survivors and the people of this incredible city went through almost three decades of hell. You are all heroes.

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1056 on: April 28, 2016, 06:05:03 pm »
Apologies if already posted elsewhere (or this is the wrong place for it)...

The Crompton connection: What links does Norman Bettison have with suspended South Yorkshire chief?:-

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/crompton-connection-what-links-norman-11258676


and phone calls & texts between Compton and Bettison around the time of the release of the HIP report:-

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/norman-bettison-phone-calls-texts-11255548
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1057 on: April 28, 2016, 06:17:20 pm »
One thing I find intriguing is the report that the S*ns report was garnered from a "local news agency"...
In my opinion...THe reporting of "fans urinating on Police officers, rifling the pockets of the dead or dying"..all lies...Did have a major impact on public opinion.
How in the name of f.ook are people allowed to get away with that?
Ive already said My club is culpable..I have no problem with that, bar the sodding feeling of shame...but surely these lies went a long way to making this travesty of justice play out as long as it did...
THe press should be held to account along with everyone else...
It wasn't simple "Misreporting" It was negligence that led to nigh on 3 decades of decent people having to clear their names...or the names of their loved ones...It went a long way to causing Liverpool fans to have to abide the sick songs etc...because no other bugger had a voice...
No doubt these reporters will continue to sit and type out their tat..make money off the back off it...I find that as disgusting as the rest of the tawdry shambles


It was White's News Agency, based in Sheffield, and their role in the propagation of the lies told by the S*n, and their relationships with senior SYP officers and Sheffield politicians was laid bare by the Hillsborough Independent Panel report in 2012. It was known in many quarters beforehand, and was widely reported when the Report was released.


The subsequent cover up is under investigation by the IPCC . The "rest of the tawdry shambles" is under investigation by Operation Resolve.


We're not really in a position to make any further comment at the present time, and nor is anyone else on this forum.[/size]

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1058 on: April 28, 2016, 06:21:05 pm »
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:25:05 pm by DAVO1 »

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1059 on: April 28, 2016, 06:27:01 pm »
The comments fro SYP typify them.  There is clearly no amount of evidence or facts that will convince them that they must bear any level of responsibility for Hillsborough, never mind all of it; or that the Liverpool fans were not, in some way, responsible - in full or in part - for the events that unfolded.

There are, doubtless, a number of individual police officers who did excel in their actions on that day; as typified by those who have since shown the courage to come forward with their stories of intimidation in regards to their altered statements. 

But to claim that SYP has "tried to remain dignified while "bile and hatred" was directed towards the force" is the ultimate irony, given it is the victims' families and survivors who have had to endure with dignity 27 YEARS of bile and hatred hurled at them from the establishment and a general public ignorant of the facts - as a direct consequence of the actions of SYP.

An apology made under duress is no apology at all.  The fact that Crompton was suspended with a "heavy heart" by a commissioner left with "no choice" implies it was a reluctant decision taken against an individual who could simply no longer be protected.  It also suggests if there had been any way to avoid a suspension it would have, and probably was, considered.
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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1060 on: April 28, 2016, 06:28:10 pm »
That piece from Suzanne Moore ; what's even more troubling is that working class people elsewhere were quite happy to lap up the establishment propaganda
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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1061 on: April 28, 2016, 07:42:28 pm »
Ive been reading forums from other teams and Id say we are getting a vast majority of support but there are still some ill informed people clinging onto the...... tanked up mob arriving late at the ground.....myths.  I have to say I think the evidence by Duckenfield was startling in its entirety.  Im sending a link to anyone who wishes to read day 5 of his evidence....most will be aware of it but for anyone who isnt,  read how his perceptions and lies about late arrivals are shattered due to the actual cctv footage on the day.  From 12.42pm he speaks about this specifically and by the end he has to accept he is totally wrong.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/recap-david-duckenfield-evidence-hillsborough-8845644

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1062 on: April 28, 2016, 08:31:22 pm »
David Conn ‏@david_conn 12m12 minutes ago

BREAKING: The brand new acting chief constable of South Yorkshire police Dawn Copley is stepping down as she is subject to an investigation.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1063 on: April 28, 2016, 08:56:39 pm »
David Conn ‏@david_conn 12m12 minutes ago

BREAKING: The brand new acting chief constable of South Yorkshire police Dawn Copley is stepping down as she is subject to an investigation.
What a shambles of an organisation.

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1064 on: April 28, 2016, 08:58:47 pm »
David Conn ‏@david_conn 12m12 minutes ago

BREAKING: The brand new acting chief constable of South Yorkshire police Dawn Copley is stepping down as she is subject to an investigation.
It's almost like it's hard to find a straight senior copper.
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Offline Jimmy Conway

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1065 on: April 28, 2016, 09:00:40 pm »
What a shambles of an organisation.

I think you're being kind calling them an organisation.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1066 on: April 28, 2016, 09:02:06 pm »
It's almost like it's hard to find a straight senior copper.

It's like they still think it's Life On Mars era policing.  Law enforcement are not and never should be above the law. They work for us.
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Offline RedKenWah

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1067 on: April 28, 2016, 09:04:06 pm »
The comments fro SYP typify them.  There is clearly no amount of evidence or facts that will convince them that they must bear any level of responsibility for Hillsborough, never mind all of it; or that the Liverpool fans were not, in some way, responsible - in full or in part - for the events that unfolded.

There are, doubtless, a number of individual police officers who did excel in their actions on that day; as typified by those who have since shown the courage to come forward with their stories of intimidation in regards to their altered statements. 

But to claim that SYP has "tried to remain dignified while "bile and hatred" was directed towards the force" is the ultimate irony, given it is the victims' families and survivors who have had to endure with dignity 27 YEARS of bile and hatred hurled at them from the establishment and a general public ignorant of the facts - as a direct consequence of the actions of SYP.

An apology made under duress is no apology at all.  The fact that Crompton was suspended with a "heavy heart" by a commissioner left with "no choice" implies it was a reluctant decision taken against an individual who could simply no longer be protected.  It also suggests if there had been any way to avoid a suspension it would have, and probably was, considered.

totally agree with this.

I'm actually glad that following a painful 2 years of this inquest, the families, the city and us as fans here have heard the Truth and that Justice will be done to those who had spent so much time trying to vilify families and loved ones who were grieving and cause them no amount of hurt and pain which no human being should be subjected too.

Here's hoping that the Juggernaut of this keeps on rolling and sweeps up all the scum that were involved in this and that the families now can finally feel vindicated for all the hard work that they were forced to do because of an establishment that were far more concerned about saving their own skin than doing the right thing

Offline NigelManx

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1068 on: April 28, 2016, 11:21:18 pm »
Question time on BBC now..just finished a short discussion on the Inquest and the SYP And other culpable groups..Andy Burnham is at it again!!! What a brilliant passionate speaker and the input from the audience was all positive towards the fight for justice! Well done again Andy...respect !!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 11:45:13 pm by NigelManx »

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1069 on: April 29, 2016, 10:43:33 am »
Somebody from college has just said to me

"Well before the gate was opened surely any decent person would have gone down the tunnel, saw the pens were full and moved to a different pen"

Then he said to me "after the gate was opened why didn't they turn back round and go back down the tunnel when they realised pens 3 and 4 was full, if people turned round when they saw it was full nothing like that would have happened, yes the police fucked up but also because Liverpool fans never turned round and go back down the tunnel to go to a different pen you killed your own fans"

Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1070 on: April 29, 2016, 10:55:56 am »
Support from Noel.

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1071 on: April 29, 2016, 10:58:40 am »
Somebody from college has just said to me

"Well before the gate was opened surely any decent person would have gone down the tunnel, saw the pens were full and moved to a different pen"

Then he said to me "after the gate was opened why didn't they turn back round and go back down the tunnel when they realised pens 3 and 4 was full, if people turned round when they saw it was full nothing like that would have happened, yes the police fucked up but also because Liverpool fans never turned round and go back down the tunnel to go to a different pen you killed your own fans"

Tell the clueless fuckwitt - who has obviously never been to the Hillsborough ground - that there were no signs to tell anyone that there were side "pens" to go to. 

I went to Hillsborough about 2 months after the disaster with my injured husband (part of the healing process apparently) and we were taken through gate C - all you could see is the tunnel - and it looked like that was the only entry onto the terraces.
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Offline marko35s

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1072 on: April 29, 2016, 11:02:39 am »
Tell the clueless fuckwitt - who has obviously never been to the Hillsborough ground - that there were no signs to tell anyone that there were side "pens" to go to. 

I went to Hillsborough about 2 months after the disaster with my injured husband (part of the healing process apparently) and we were taken through gate C - all you could see is the tunnel - and it looked like that was the only entry onto the terraces.
Besides that the guy needs to read up a bit about the fluid properties of a crowd and how a crush happens. I can't find it now but somebody posted up a link somewhere here the other day and it explains a lot about how when it starts it is virtually impossible to stop.

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1073 on: April 29, 2016, 11:04:14 am »
Besides that the guy needs to read up a bit about the fluid properties of a crowd and how a crush happens. I can't find it now but somebody posted up a link somewhere here the other day and it explains a lot about how when it starts it is virtually impossible to stop.

Yep - was going to modify my post to add something alluding to that
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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1074 on: April 29, 2016, 11:09:08 am »
Somebody from college has just said to me

"Well before the gate was opened surely any decent person would have gone down the tunnel, saw the pens were full and moved to a different pen"

Then he said to me "after the gate was opened why didn't they turn back round and go back down the tunnel when they realised pens 3 and 4 was full, if people turned round when they saw it was full nothing like that would have happened, yes the police fucked up but also because Liverpool fans never turned round and go back down the tunnel to go to a different pen you killed your own fans"

These people have no idea how crowds work. Here's an article about the tragic crush at the Hajj but it's very informative about how crowds move, and how crushes happen. They are not natural disasters, they are man made, caused through human error, misjudgement and mismanagement:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/03/hajj-crush-how-crowd-disasters-happen-and-how-they-can-be-avoided

I saw us play Wednesday at home a few weeks before the semi-final, and had a deeply unpleasant experience on the packed Leppings Lane terrace. Years later I was caught in a crush on Edinburgh's Princes Street at Hogmanay. Again, the sense of panic and fear was awful, the crowd was out of control, uncontrollable, and unmanaged. We know what happened at Hillsborough, and Edinburgh made Hogmanay all ticket the following year after 300 people were injured. Anyone spouting that shite is ignorant.

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1075 on: April 29, 2016, 11:13:32 am »
Somebody from college has just said to me...

I think it's impossible to understand fully if you weren't there and don't understand how crowds move in those situations, but I suppose the simplest explanation is that it's not a case of one person strolling down the tunnel, realising it was full and then strolling back out again. By the time any one person reailised it was full, there would've been hundreds of people who had already come in behind them (who didn't realise it was full), and it would be impossible to just 'go back down the tunnel'. And all those people coming in behind them, would in turn not have known it was full until it was too late. Plus obviously most people didn't even realise there was any other way in to the terraces.

Also, can that person explain why there were also crushes in the semi-finals of 1981 and 1987, when neither of those games involved Liverpool? Also, countless other crushes at various stadiums throughout that time - it was a natural consequence of having terraces, fences and outdated, unsafe stadiums. I can sort of understand how nowadays it's hard to grasp the dynamics of how crowds move in scenarios like this because football stadiums now are like a different world, but the fact that crushes at stadiums were a fairly common occurrence, will tell you that it was not just a 'Liverpool problem' - it's just how crowds move in those cicrumstances. Also, if it was just Liverpool fans, why did they decide to bring in all-seater stadiums and take down the perimeter fencing as a response to the disaster? This proves that there was a fundametal problem with terracing and fencing and the general conditions of all stadiums at the time. If it was just Liverpool fans that were the problem, they'd have just played all our games behind closed doors instead. I think people who didn't go to matches in that era tend to view HIllsborough in isolation, as though it was the only time something like that had happened. It was by far the most serious, but it was certainly not an isolated incident. The factor that changed it from being a relatively minor incident into a disaster was the failure of the police to implement their normal procedures (both inside and outside the ground), due to the inexperience of the match commander.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 11:28:32 am by Rob Dylan »

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1076 on: April 29, 2016, 11:24:45 am »
You know when you browse the internet and you just come across all sorts of vermin who seem to think this was all a whitewash?  Yeah, that's happened.  There's some absolute idiotic people who will stop at nothing to tell you, in their uninformed opinion, that it doesn't matter what the Taylor report said, it doesn't matter what the Hillsborough Independent Panel's findings were, and it doesn't matter what the findings of the Coroner's Court were, that it was still the fault of the fans.  I had the misfortune to look at the Hillsborough thread on Digital Spy's forums and the amount of garbage from more than one individual is still heartbreaking.  How can these people still believe in a bare-faced lie disproved time and time again?  It's staggering.
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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1077 on: April 29, 2016, 11:27:51 am »
What an incredible, emotional week. The sense of relief, vindication and pride around the city is really something to behold. I wasn't able to make the service at St George's Hall on Wednesday but I went there yesterday morning to have a look at the tributes before work. It was quiet and I spent some time there looking at all the various messages and scarves that had been left. I defy anyone to go down there and not be moved by it.

Something that's started to annoy me over the last few days though, is the reaction of some people - and I'm talking here about public figures, politicians and some people in the media. Obviously there have been shining lights from all over the world that have stood by us for 27 years, but they are a minority. I've heard comments from people now saying "it's great that we finally know the truth" etc. Where the fuck have they been, while we have shouted and screamed to the world for 27 years? We don't finally know the truth, the truth was out on the day of the disaster thanks to the thousands of eye witnesses in attendance, and TV footage and photographs.

An example is the Tory MP on Question Time last night - who to be fair to him was respectful. Again though he said something along the lines of "finally the families know the truth", and was rightly corrected by a member of the audience that they'd always known the truth. For the best part of 3 decades public opinion was against us. People in positions of influence simply didn't give a shit, didn't want to go against the tide. Now that tide has turned they're falling over themselves to say how great the families have been, and how terrible a cover up it was. Forgive me if I think "fuck off, you didn't care until now". I'm sorry if that sounds callous but it's something that I've noticed a lot this week and it's annoyed me.

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1078 on: April 29, 2016, 11:32:54 am »
I think it's impossible to understand fully if you weren't there and don't understand how crowds move in those situations, but I suppose the simplest explanation is that it's not a case of one person strolling down the tunnel, realising it was full and then strolling back out again. By the time any one person reailised it was full, there would've been hundreds of people who had already come in behind them (who didn't realise it was full), and it would be impossible to just 'go back down the tunnel'. And all those people coming in behind them, would in turn not have known it was full until it was too late. Plus obviously most people didn't even realise there was any other way in to the terraces.

Also, can that person explain why there were also crushes in the semi-finals of 1981 and 1987, when neither of those games involved Liverpool? Also, countless other crushes at various stadiums throughout that time - it was a natural consequence of having terraces, fences and outdated, unsafe stadiums. I can sort of understand how nowadays it's hard to grasp the dynamics of how crowds move in scenarios like this because football stadiums now are like a different world, but the fact that crushes at stadiums were a fairly common occurrence, will tell you that it was not just a 'Liverpool problem' - it's just how crowds move in those cicrumstances. Also, if it was just Liverpool fans, why did they decide to bring in all-seater stadiums and take down the perimeter fencing as a response to the disaster? This proves that there was a fundametal problem with terracing and fencing and the general conditions of all stadiums at the time. If it was just Liverpool fans that were the problem, they'd have just played all our games behind closed doors instead. I think people who didn't go to matches in that era tend to view HIllsborough in isolation, as though it was the only time something like that had happened. It was by far the most serious, but it was certainly not an isolated incident. The factor that changed it from being a relatively minor incident into a disaster was the failure of the police to implement their normal procedures (both inside and outside the ground), due to the inexperience of the match commander.

I can't say I've ever seen my next point raised, but why is the Leppings  Lane stand still standing? It should have been razed years ago.

 I get sick to the stomach whenever I see it on TV. God forbid Sheffield Wednesday get back in the Premier or we get drawn in a Cup game. That stadium should be boycotted until it's gone.


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Offline Aaron Rattray1

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Re: Hillsborough - Inquest Verdicts - Tuesday 26th April
« Reply #1079 on: April 29, 2016, 11:40:53 am »
This same person from college then went on to say "what about the truth about Heysel? Would be nice if the real truth came out about that "

I shut him up then