Author Topic: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?  (Read 62510 times)

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #200 on: November 9, 2011, 05:12:31 pm »
i think your missing the point, keegan was a major factor in this club becoming the force it did in european and english football.
before keegan we were just one of a number of clubs who had achieved a bit of success, in the decade before he arrived we had won the title twice (also finished runners up once) plus an F.A cup win, man united had won the title twice (runners up twice) plus a european cup and a F.A. cup, everton had won the title twice plus an F.A. cup win, leeds had won the title once (runners up four times, five if you include keegans first season) and lost three F.A cup finals, man city had won the title once plus an F.A cup win and arsenal had the same as city.
until keegan arrived there was nothing remarkable about us, we were just one of a host of clubs and infact when he arrived we were at the back of that bunch finishing 5th the two previous years and both times 15 points away from the champions (in those 2 points for a win days 15 points would be more like 25 points these days)
in the six years he spent here we won 3 titles, finished runner up twice and the other season we finished third, but ironically the season we finished third we ended up on the same points as second place leeds just 1 point behind the champions and we had a good goal ruled out away at arsenal on the last day of the season that would have made us champions.
in other words all the while keegan was here we either won the title or went very close
on top of that in those six years we won two uefa cups (in an era when some people said it was harder to win than the actual european cup) we appeared in two F.A cup finals winning one and we won the european cup.
in the six years keegan spent at liverpool we went from one of the pack to the best side in england and europe, no other club in the history of the game had had such a run of success and consistency
it depends what you call a legend i suppose, you could get someone from roy evans era going on telly saying this club means the world to him getting called a legend for his words.
personally my legends did their talking on the pitch, not in the tv studio.
none bigger than keegan in my book, he`s up there with the liddell`s and dalglish`s etc


Agree with all that. Good post. I see no reason why it cannot be said that he was the one that lifted us to the next level, a level at which we managed to remain for two decades.

Offline Redrider

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #201 on: November 9, 2011, 05:17:36 pm »
Oh, come on Keegan was only part of the seventies team. Yes he took a lot of the accolades and rightly so. Yes he was adored and appreciated. But the team and the spirit that was laid down and developed by Shankly and ultimately delivered under Paisley was not about one man. It was all about the blend of contribution and the culmination of a lot of hard work, developing a playing style to take on and tame the best that the continent had to offer. Keegan was good but not essential, there were other players who were just as influential in their own right.
Yes, he should be remembered with affection, but he was not the major factor, we would have done it with a.n. other in the nr 7 shirt, because the whole was greater than the sum of the parts.
If you wish to start distilling Major Factors then look no further than the 'Seventies Boot Room' aided by a superb administrator for his time in Peter Robinson.

Offline kneeys

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #202 on: November 9, 2011, 05:29:43 pm »
No and neither do his teamates at the time.
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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #203 on: November 9, 2011, 05:37:45 pm »
Oh, come on Keegan was only part of the seventies team. Yes he took a lot of the accolades and rightly so. Yes he was adored and appreciated. But the team and the spirit that was laid down and developed by Shankly and ultimately delivered under Paisley was not about one man. It was all about the blend of contribution and the culmination of a lot of hard work, developing a playing style to take on and tame the best that the continent had to offer. Keegan was good but not essential, there were other players who were just as influential in their own right.
Yes, he should be remembered with affection, but he was not the major factor, we would have done it with a.n. other in the nr 7 shirt, because the whole was greater than the sum of the parts.
If you wish to start distilling Major Factors then look no further than the 'Seventies Boot Room' aided by a superb administrator for his time in Peter Robinson.

It is hard to be definitive, I agree and possibly there is some overegging going on. As you say in the final analysis it has to be all about the 'Team'. However, I guess the underlying objective of the thread is to redress the lack of any real esteem Keegan is held in both within the club and by fans who weren't around at the time.

In that context, and having been around to witness what happened at the time and in the decade or so before and in all the time since, I'm not at all uncomfortable with bestowing upon Keegan the mantle of the catalyst on the pitch responsible for the leap our club took at that point in our history.

Of course, nobody can compare with Shanks or Paisley in the overall LFC picture. But I find it hard to believe that any Red who was around to actually see us evolving back then could deny that Keegan was the vital difference on the pitch between us being "merely" a decent side [at worst], a cracking side [at best] and us actually blossoming into the truly great one that was soon to tower above all comers both domestically and abroad.

   

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #204 on: November 9, 2011, 05:40:43 pm »
Oh, come on Keegan was only part of the seventies team. Yes he took a lot of the accolades and rightly so. Yes he was adored and appreciated. But the team and the spirit that was laid down and developed by Shankly and ultimately delivered under Paisley was not about one man. It was all about the blend of contribution and the culmination of a lot of hard work, developing a playing style to take on and tame the best that the continent had to offer. Keegan was good but not essential, there were other players who were just as influential in their own right.
Yes, he should be remembered with affection, but he was not the major factor, we would have done it with a.n. other in the nr 7 shirt, because the whole was greater than the sum of the parts.
If you wish to start distilling Major Factors then look no further than the 'Seventies Boot Room' aided by a superb administrator for his time in Peter Robinson.

you obviously werent there, shankly was struggling to find a side, we spent big money on the likes of tony hately and alun evans and even toshack didnt look that great
we were actually gradually sliding away from the other clubs, keegan wasnt the last piece of the jigsaw, we never finished 4th then 3rd then 2nd then we signed keegan and he was the missing piece that took us that step to the top.
keegan was signed as a relatively cheap long term replacement for cally who had had knee trouble and had lost his pace, keegan was signed as a wide player and he was destined for the reserves
keegan just impressed so much in training that the coaching staff just thought f##k it lets throw him upfront with toshack and see what happens, the rest is history
the difference in the team when he got in it, from the first minute he got in it was immense, suddenly we had energy and purpose
keegan was 20 when he first got in the side and inspired by him we missed out on the title by a point and but for a refs decision we would have won it.
keegan inspired everyone around him, suddenly toshack didnt look so lumbering, cally didnt look finished, the weight of carrying the team lifted off tommy smiths shoulders (smith doesnt get enough credit for his leadership in those 6 barren years) the pressure was off heighway to create something.......i could go right through the side.
the fortunes of this club changed the day kevin keegan walked through the door
the only other time i`ve seen such a dramatic improvement in a liverpool side was when we signed barnes, beardsley, aldo and houghton......thats how dramatic the inclusion of 1 player was to that side.

Offline the 92A

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #205 on: November 9, 2011, 05:57:57 pm »
you obviously werent there, shankly was struggling to find a side, we spent big money on the likes of tony hately and alun evans and even toshack didnt look that great
we were actually gradually sliding away from the other clubs, keegan wasnt the last piece of the jigsaw, we never finished 4th then 3rd then 2nd then we signed keegan and he was the missing piece that took us that step to the top.
keegan was signed as a relatively cheap long term replacement for cally who had had knee trouble and had lost his pace, keegan was signed as a wide player and he was destined for the reserves
keegan just impressed so much in training that the coaching staff just thought f##k it lets throw him upfront with toshack and see what happens, the rest is history
the difference in the team when he got in it, from the first minute he got in it was immense, suddenly we had energy and purpose
keegan was 20 when he first got in the side and inspired by him we missed out on the title by a point and but for a refs decision we would have won it.
keegan inspired everyone around him, suddenly toshack didnt look so lumbering, cally didnt look finished, the weight of carrying the team lifted off tommy smiths shoulders (smith doesnt get enough credit for his leadership in those 6 barren years) the pressure was off heighway to create something.......i could go right through the side.
the fortunes of this club changed the day kevin keegan walked through the door
the only other time i`ve seen such a dramatic improvement in a liverpool side was when we signed barnes, beardsley, aldo and houghton......thats how dramatic the inclusion of 1 player was to that side.

That tallies with my memory too, that's the whole point of the thread, you can't underplay what a difference his introduction made, he was like a catalyst that brought out the best and  more importantly knitted the whole side together and it was instant, He was instrumental in kick startingShankly's  seventies side that went on to become the best in  the world under Paisley He was that good. Precisely the right player for the right team at the right moment. The mythical missing link, last piece in the jigsaw, all the cliches that we espouse rolled into the form of a spotty kid from Scunthorpe who Shankly loved, don't ever confuse the joke that sits on football panels for the player who was instrumental in turning around a team that would later be great.
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #206 on: November 9, 2011, 06:00:36 pm »
the fortunes of this club changed the day kevin keegan walked through the door

I'd give anything to have seen the look on Shankly's face as he watched Keegan mesmerising everyone else during that first training session. I think I'm right in saying he'd been recommended to Shanks by his friend Andy Beattie so Shanks had not actually seen him playing until that training session. Ha ha.

Shank's little heartstrings must have been twanging all over the show as he watched this little pocket dynamo literally exploding into his first team plans. From complete unknown to best player in the club in one training session.

 ;D


Offline its cold in the stands

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #207 on: November 9, 2011, 07:02:05 pm »
I'd give anything to have seen the look on Shankly's face as he watched Keegan mesmerising everyone else during that first training session. I think I'm right in saying he'd been recommended to Shanks by his friend Andy Beattie so Shanks had not actually seen him playing until that training session. Ha ha.

Shank's little heartstrings must have been twanging all over the show as he watched this little pocket dynamo literally exploding into his first team plans. From complete unknown to best player in the club in one training session.

 ;D



with shankly being in the game so long he was no doubt impressed with keegan in training but he probably also thought that it`s a big ask expecting a 20 year old from the 4th division to revolutionise the side.
then again he did start him straight away and didnt he say to keegan after a couple of weeks pre season training that he`d play for england in the future? playing for england (or scotland etc) was a big thing back then.
so maybe the great man did see how good keegan was going to be, he certainly called him the best signing he ever made.

Offline Manila Vanilla

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #208 on: November 9, 2011, 09:22:31 pm »
the difference in the team when he got in it, from the first minute he got in it was immense, suddenly we had energy and purpose
keegan was 20 when he first got in the side and inspired by him we missed out on the title by a point and but for a refs decision we would have won it.
keegan inspired everyone around him, suddenly toshack didnt look so lumbering, cally didnt look finished, the weight of carrying the team lifted off tommy smiths shoulders (smith doesnt get enough credit for his leadership in those 6 barren years) the pressure was off heighway to create something.......i could go right through the side.
the fortunes of this club changed the day kevin keegan walked through the door

This says it all.
Smith had been holding together a team in transition.
Toshack was always limited. The fact that he's remembered in one of the great partnerships was 80% down to Keegan. Otherwise, he'd have been Wise without Morecambe.
I got to 33 games that season, at a time when not many games were televised, and I've never seen one person so completely transform a side.
As you say, he took the weight of responsibility off the experienced players and the weight of expectation off the young ones.

Offline John C

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #209 on: November 9, 2011, 11:42:25 pm »
Some great posts in recognition of him shining though now, well done lads. Those of you making positive comments know its not even a debate.

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #210 on: November 10, 2011, 12:08:06 am »
Oh, come on Keegan was only part of the seventies team. Yes he took a lot of the accolades and rightly so. Yes he was adored and appreciated. But the team and the spirit that was laid down and developed by Shankly and ultimately delivered under Paisley was not about one man. It was all about the blend of contribution and the culmination of a lot of hard work, developing a playing style to take on and tame the best that the continent had to offer. Keegan was good but not essential, there were other players who were just as influential in their own right.
Yes, he should be remembered with affection, but he was not the major factor, we would have done it with a.n. other in the nr 7 shirt, because the whole was greater than the sum of the parts.
If you wish to start distilling Major Factors then look no further than the 'Seventies Boot Room' aided by a superb administrator for his time in Peter Robinson.

nah..
They have life in them, they have humour, they're arrogant, they're cocky and they're proud. And that's what I want my team to be.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #211 on: November 10, 2011, 07:27:04 am »
nah..

Ha ha. Love it. Why bother with words when a single expression says it all. I'll have to remember that one. It'll save me a hell of a lot of wasted time and effort.

 ;D

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #212 on: November 10, 2011, 07:27:44 am »
Some great posts in recognition of him shining though now, well done lads. Those of you making positive comments know its not even a debate.

Seconded.

Offline Redrider

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #213 on: November 10, 2011, 08:11:40 am »
Ha ha. Love it. Why bother with words when a single expression says it all. I'll have to remember that one. It'll save me a hell of a lot of wasted time and effort.

 ;D
Particularly when you are having difficulty with knowledge of the facts to construct an intelligent response.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2011, 10:17:20 am »
I like the point made by 'its cold in the stands'. Liverpool were indeed part of a pack in the late 60s and early 70s. Looking back now, it was an exciting time in English football because at the start of the season nine or ten teams could be said to be in with a realistic chance of winning the championship. We were definitely one of them, as were Everton, Leeds, the Manchester clubs, Arsenal and - increasingly - Derby. In addition to these clubs West Ham, Spurs, Chelsea and Newcastle had all won European trophies (which we hadn't before KK arrived).

Liverpool were a magnificent club in 1971, but the team itself lacked a spark. Shankly said so himself and in his autobiography he credits Keegan with supplying  it. He calls him the most important player he ever had.

There really ought to be no debate about this - not just because Shanks gave an authoritative answer, but because there's enough living memory to testify to the enormous change Keegan wrought at Anfield as soon as he arrived. By the time he left of course all those contenders had been blown out of the water. Everton had been knocked back, the Manchester clubs had faded. Even Leeds had been vanquished. There was only one dynasty and it was Liverpool.

Kenny Dalglish was a better player than Kevin Keegan. We all know that. But he was better than every other player who has ever played for Liverpool. But, let's not forget, he joined the European champions - and he joined a club that was a level above every other English team when it came to winning league titles. Keegan's a big reason why.
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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2011, 10:27:13 am »
Particularly when you are having difficulty with knowledge of the facts to construct an intelligent response.

made my position clear earlier in the thread dear....do keep up
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2011, 10:28:17 am »
Particularly when you are having difficulty with knowledge of the facts to construct an intelligent response.

Sorry. It was a cheap shot - more so my own sycophantic guffawing than the original comment. Accept my humble apologies. You didn't deserve to be the target for it. You're just as entitled to your interpretation as any Keegan appreciator and you put it across well enough.

It's still a good put down though which I intend to use if the right target presents itself.

 ;D

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2011, 10:30:02 am »
I like the point made by 'its cold in the stands'. Liverpool were indeed part of a pack in the late 60s and early 70s. Looking back now, it was an exciting time in English football because at the start of the season nine or ten teams could be said to be in with a realistic chance of winning the championship. We were definitely one of them, as were Everton, Leeds, the Manchester clubs, Arsenal and - increasingly - Derby. In addition to these clubs West Ham, Spurs, Chelsea and Newcastle had all won European trophies (which we hadn't before KK arrived).

Liverpool were a magnificent club in 1971, but the team itself lacked a spark. Shankly said so himself and in his autobiography he credits Keegan with supplying  it. He calls him the most important player he ever had.

There really ought to be no debate about this - not just because Shanks gave an authoritative answer, but because there's enough living memory to testify to the enormous change Keegan wrought at Anfield as soon as he arrived. By the time he left of course all those contenders had been blown out of the water. Everton had been knocked back, the Manchester clubs had faded. Even Leeds had been vanquished. There was only one dynasty and it was Liverpool.

Kenny Dalglish was a better player than Kevin Keegan. We all know that. But he was better than every other player who has ever played for Liverpool. But, let's not forget, he joined the European champions - and he joined a club that was a level above every other English team when it came to winning league titles. Keegan's a big reason why.

Well put Yorky.

 :)

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #218 on: November 10, 2011, 05:35:33 pm »
This says it all.
Smith had been holding together a team in transition.
Toshack was always limited. The fact that he's remembered in one of the great partnerships was 80% down to Keegan. Otherwise, he'd have been Wise without Morecambe.
I got to 33 games that season, at a time when not many games were televised, and I've never seen one person so completely transform a side.
As you say, he took the weight of responsibility off the experienced players and the weight of expectation off the young ones.
I was too young to see this era but many times I asked my dad how come we won so little in the late 60's.

My dad told me that Tommy Smith (who was in his peak years) carried the side through the end of the first great Shanks team. His view that it was Keegan and Hughes (who was already established there by the time KK arrived) were the driving forces and Keegan was the catalyst.

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2011, 06:59:12 pm »
I was too young to see this era but many times I asked my dad how come we won so little in the late 60's.

My dad told me that Tommy Smith (who was in his peak years) carried the side through the end of the first great Shanks team. His view that it was Keegan and Hughes (who was already established there by the time KK arrived) were the driving forces and Keegan was the catalyst.

Your dad's right about Tommy Smith and seeing as a few have mentioned Smithy I'm going to say a few words about him.

Having said how good he was at the end of the 60's into the early '70's and as good as he was throughout his entire career ['63 to '77] it's my own firm conviction that Smithy's finest years were his first three, most especially when Shanks gave him the number 10 shirt and stuck him alongside Rowdy as the footballing twin centre back.

My memory doesn't tell me exactly when the little and large centre back formation came into play in this country [in other words the back four as we still know it today which was first introduced by Brazil in the '58 world cup] or whether we were the first English side to employ it. Certainly if you go back only 2 years earlier to the great early sixties Spurs side they operated with a back three of two full backs [Henry and Baker] alongside a sole centre back [Norman]. Their half backs [right and left half] were Danny Blanchflower and Dave Mckay and neither of them operated alongside Norman.

Whatever, when Smithy played in that role alongside Yeats between late '63 and '67 he was an incredible presence. He wasn't the chunky Smithy back then. He was powerfully built but you'd actually term his build as more slim and lithe. Not that his slim build made him any less of a fearsome presence.  :)

He had every attribute you could wish for in any footballer. He was as brave as a lion and always as hard as nails, of course, and could always tackle like a tank, but it was his timing and decision making in the tackle that set him apart. I'd say it has only ever been approached by mark lawrenson in a red shirt. And of his many famous peers at the time - Chopper harris, Norman Hunter, Nobby Stiles none were remotely as good or precise in the tackle. Hard as it may be to believe now, Smithy hardly ever gave away a foul let alone get booked. Admittedly most times he took ball and man but hey it was a man's game back then.  8)

Though not a tall defender, his heading was decent [Rome '77 was a rarity but certainly no fluke that he connected so succulently]. However, the area of his game that nowadays has become overlooked was his creative play. I don't think there's any exaggeration to say that after Peter Thompson he was probably the finest dribbler in that mid sixties team. Willie stevo and Cally and perhaps even St John and Sir Roger might contest this but I'd back Smithy against them. Every time.

At least half a dozen times each game he'd come surging forward in one of his slalom dribbles past two or three opponents before releasing a slide rule pass for one of the forwards or else occasionally to have a shot on goal himself.

During that period he played against England's finest attackers and also Europes finest. If we take the Ajax Johann Cruyff [5-1] away disaster in the fog out of the equation because it was so freakish then what we have is Smithy basically dominating every attacker he came up against. Bar Georgie Best, of course, because no defender could live with Bestie. In my own opinion he was far superior than the Bobby Moore I used to watch three times a year[once at Anfield, once at Goodison and once at the Boleyn Ground] in every aspect of the game bar positioning [Moore was the master for this] and, perhaps,  :) [hmmph] good looks and blond hair.

I loved Smithy. He's definitely my favourite Red's player of all time after Kenny and in a thread which has rightly celebrated another unsung hero, I think it's fitting that someone even more unsung and underrated gets a proper mention.     

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #220 on: November 10, 2011, 07:23:13 pm »
You know one thing I have often pondered how would we have done with both Keegan and Dalglish in the team?
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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #221 on: November 10, 2011, 07:26:26 pm »
You know one thing I have often pondered how would we have done with both Keegan and Dalglish in the team?
Well.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #222 on: November 10, 2011, 07:43:26 pm »
Well.

Would have been good to see it happen as for this thread just brilliant but let's also put in a shout for Ian Callaghan as a great if unsung hero for us over many years. Changed his game and became a better player as he got older.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #223 on: November 10, 2011, 09:44:43 pm »
I like the point made by 'its cold in the stands'. Liverpool were indeed part of a pack in the late 60s and early 70s. Looking back now, it was an exciting time in English football because at the start of the season nine or ten teams could be said to be in with a realistic chance of winning the championship. We were definitely one of them, as were Everton, Leeds, the Manchester clubs, Arsenal and - increasingly - Derby. In addition to these clubs West Ham, Spurs, Chelsea and Newcastle had all won European trophies (which we hadn't before KK arrived).

Liverpool were a magnificent club in 1971, but the team itself lacked a spark. Shankly said so himself and in his autobiography he credits Keegan with supplying  it. He calls him the most important player he ever had.

There really ought to be no debate about this - not just because Shanks gave an authoritative answer, but because there's enough living memory to testify to the enormous change Keegan wrought at Anfield as soon as he arrived. By the time he left of course all those contenders had been blown out of the water. Everton had been knocked back, the Manchester clubs had faded. Even Leeds had been vanquished. There was only one dynasty and it was Liverpool.

Kenny Dalglish was a better player than Kevin Keegan. We all know that. But he was better than every other player who has ever played for Liverpool. But, let's not forget, he joined the European champions - and he joined a club that was a level above every other English team when it came to winning league titles. Keegan's a big reason why.
Beautiful post yorky. Magnificent.

Offline Shanks1965

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #224 on: November 11, 2011, 10:43:59 pm »
Oh, come on Keegan was only part of the seventies team. Yes he took a lot of the accolades and rightly so. Yes he was adored and appreciated. But the team and the spirit that was laid down and developed by Shankly and ultimately delivered under Paisley was not about one man. It was all about the blend of contribution and the culmination of a lot of hard work, developing a playing style to take on and tame the best that the continent had to offer. Keegan was good but not essential, there were other players who were just as influential in their own right.
Yes, he should be remembered with affection, but he was not the major factor, we would have done it with a.n. other in the nr 7 shirt, because the whole was greater than the sum of the parts.
If you wish to start distilling Major Factors then look no further than the 'Seventies Boot Room' aided by a superb administrator for his time in Peter Robinson.
You're right, the 70's team had some fantastic players including my all time favourite... Emlyn.

However..... Keegan was the spark that made the machine work. When he wasnt playing Liverpool then missed Keegan far more than Liverpool now miss Steven Gerrard. I remember one day we were top of the league and a struggling Coventry City came to Anfield and when they announced the team and he wasnt playing pretty much everyone in the ground knew we'd struggle to beat them. We drew 0-0.

Never underestimate how important he was to us.
Seen more titles than he can remember...

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #225 on: November 12, 2011, 11:32:57 am »
Your dad's right about Tommy Smith and seeing as a few have mentioned Smithy I'm going to say a few words about him.

Having said how good he was at the end of the 60's into the early '70's and as good as he was throughout his entire career ['63 to '77] it's my own firm conviction that Smithy's finest years were his first three, most especially when Shanks gave him the number 10 shirt and stuck him alongside Rowdy as the footballing twin centre back.

My memory doesn't tell me exactly when the little and large centre back formation came into play in this country [in other words the back four as we still know it today which was first introduced by Brazil in the '58 world cup] or whether we were the first English side to employ it. Certainly if you go back only 2 years earlier to the great early sixties Spurs side they operated with a back three of two full backs [Henry and Baker] alongside a sole centre back [Norman]. Their half backs [right and left half] were Danny Blanchflower and Dave Mckay and neither of them operated alongside Norman.

Whatever, when Smithy played in that role alongside Yeats between late '63 and '67 he was an incredible presence. He wasn't the chunky Smithy back then. He was powerfully built but you'd actually term his build as more slim and lithe. Not that his slim build made him any less of a fearsome presence.  :)

He had every attribute you could wish for in any footballer. He was as brave as a lion and always as hard as nails, of course, and could always tackle like a tank, but it was his timing and decision making in the tackle that set him apart. I'd say it has only ever been approached by mark lawrenson in a red shirt. And of his many famous peers at the time - Chopper harris, Norman Hunter, Nobby Stiles none were remotely as good or precise in the tackle. Hard as it may be to believe now, Smithy hardly ever gave away a foul let alone get booked. Admittedly most times he took ball and man but hey it was a man's game back then.  8)

Though not a tall defender, his heading was decent [Rome '77 was a rarity but certainly no fluke that he connected so succulently]. However, the area of his game that nowadays has become overlooked was his creative play. I don't think there's any exaggeration to say that after Peter Thompson he was probably the finest dribbler in that mid sixties team. Willie stevo and Cally and perhaps even St John and Sir Roger might contest this but I'd back Smithy against them. Every time.

At least half a dozen times each game he'd come surging forward in one of his slalom dribbles past two or three opponents before releasing a slide rule pass for one of the forwards or else occasionally to have a shot on goal himself.

During that period he played against England's finest attackers and also Europes finest. If we take the Ajax Johann Cruyff [5-1] away disaster in the fog out of the equation because it was so freakish then what we have is Smithy basically dominating every attacker he came up against. Bar Georgie Best, of course, because no defender could live with Bestie. In my own opinion he was far superior than the Bobby Moore I used to watch three times a year[once at Anfield, once at Goodison and once at the Boleyn Ground] in every aspect of the game bar positioning [Moore was the master for this] and, perhaps,  :) [hmmph] good looks and blond hair.

I loved Smithy. He's definitely my favourite Red's player of all time after Kenny and in a thread which has rightly celebrated another unsung hero, I think it's fitting that someone even more unsung and underrated gets a proper mention.     

My memory is a bit vague after all this time but if Tommy was alongside Rowdy what was Stevenson doing?  Milne or my name sake Strong would be more the modern term of AM then and I always thought Tommy was a forerunner for the DM role breaking up the play and moving the ball on. But time plays tricks on ones memory.

As for Kevin he was a catalyst for sure in that era, i would put him above the clamour of the modern day fan who think we could not play without in the past Stevie/Torres and now Suarez, When Kevin was not in the team a large chunk of our game went with him, as I said earlier i think he gets less recognition from some simply because of who replaced him, but for me and to make the point  to our younger fans that was like replacing Ronaldo with Messi.

What Kevin did for this club should never be underrated by any of our fans, without him and Crazy Horse we would have stayed in the pack fighting amongst the rest.
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #226 on: November 12, 2011, 12:46:48 pm »
My memory is a bit vague after all this time but if Tommy was alongside Rowdy what was Stevenson doing?  Milne or my name sake Strong would be more the modern term of AM then and I always thought Tommy was a forerunner for the DM role breaking up the play and moving the ball on. But time plays tricks on ones memory.


Geoff, your poor memory makes me feel like Leslie Welch. Cheers.

 :)

The basic formation [4-2-4] once he moved Smithy alongside big Rowdy was a flat back four of Lawler, Smith, Yeats, Byrne with Lawler, particularly, and Smith and Byrne occasionally given license to join the attack. Tommy lawrence acting as the first Goalie cum sweeper enabled us to hold a high line.

The midfield twosome was Stevo and the busy bee Milne [occasionally your namesake] who shared attacking and defensive duties in that role with St John often dropping back to make a threesome.

Out wide we had Cally who was also the cover for the sneaky forward ventures of Chrissy Lawler and wide left Thommo. Which left Hunt as main striker ably supported by St John.

EDIT: Should also give honourable mentions to Bobby Graham and Gordon wallace who unfortunately never managed to get more than the odd appearance during this time with there being no substitutes and hardly an injury.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:03:09 pm by Timbo's Goals »

Offline Ryan M

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #227 on: November 13, 2011, 09:58:59 am »
Some quality posts there fellas, brilliant reading them.

Shame people would rather constantly discuss how shit Adam is, or how Lucas is the best thing since Billy Liddell.

I hardly ever post in the Liverpool threads anymore because of the 'fan boys' involved with certain players. The amount of shite I've read the last couple of weeks about Adam, Lucas, Carroll, Henderson, Gerrard, Carra, I could go on and on. I'm delighted to finally read something worth while.

It's a shame it's been nearly 24 hours since the last posts on this thread.

Anyway fellas cheers for them posts.

Offline Meako1977

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #228 on: November 13, 2011, 02:36:38 pm »
Think Keegan suffers from the same issue as McManaman and Owen. He dared to leave the club when he was at the top of his game rather than giving his career to LFC and a lot of fans forget all of the great things he did when he was here. As touched on before he took the team by the scruff of the neck and dragged us on the path that would lead us into the greatest team in Europe. Should be regarded as a great but will never get the same accolades as Hansen or Kenny as their career was only LFC.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #229 on: November 13, 2011, 02:58:49 pm »
Think Keegan suffers from the same issue as McManaman and Owen. He dared to leave the club when he was at the top of his game rather than giving his career to LFC and a lot of fans forget all of the great things he did when he was here. As touched on before he took the team by the scruff of the neck and dragged us on the path that would lead us into the greatest team in Europe. Should be regarded as a great but will never get the same accolades as Hansen or Kenny as their career was only LFC.

You cant compare him to Owen and Steve, he didnt dare to leave he announced it at the start of the season and left with our gratitude and respect, he wanted to play abroad simple as that, whereas the other two were a little bit more disrespectful towards the club and the fans in the way they left.

Anyone who saw him play for us know from first game to last he gave 100% on the pitch and was great for the club off the pitch as well, he only suffers I believe because of who replaced him.
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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #230 on: November 13, 2011, 02:59:21 pm »
Think Keegan suffers from the same issue as McManaman and Owen. He dared to leave the club when he was at the top of his game rather than giving his career to LFC and a lot of fans forget all of the great things he did when he was here. As touched on before he took the team by the scruff of the neck and dragged us on the path that would lead us into the greatest team in Europe. Should be regarded as a great but will never get the same accolades as Hansen or Kenny as their career was only LFC.
I don't class Keegan in the same category as MacManaman or Owen.

Keegan won everything for us. Was an enormous player who we signed for peanuts and sold for a record fee which allowed the club to continue to go forward.

I don't dislike Macca, he gave his all for the club but he is not in the same class as Keegan. He elected to leave after the club discussed selling him.

Owen is different, he strung the club along for his own ends and to keep his billy big boots reputation that was floundering and has never been recovered. The mistake we made with Michael Owen was not selling him much much earlier when he was the talk of Europe.

Offline bigbear

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #231 on: November 13, 2011, 03:00:07 pm »
You cant compare him to Owen and Steve, he didnt dare to leave he announced it at the start of the season and left with our gratitude and respect, he wanted to play abroad simple as that, whereas the other two were a little bit more disrespectful towards the club and the fans in the way they left.

Anyone who saw him play for us know from first game to last he gave 100% on the pitch and was great for the club off the pitch as well, he only suffers I believe because of who replaced him.

Plus what a way to bow out.

Offline Meako1977

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #232 on: November 13, 2011, 03:17:11 pm »
You cant compare him to Owen and Steve, he didnt dare to leave he announced it at the start of the season and left with our gratitude and respect, he wanted to play abroad simple as that, whereas the other two were a little bit more disrespectful towards the club and the fans in the way they left.

Anyone who saw him play for us know from first game to last he gave 100% on the pitch and was great for the club off the pitch as well, he only suffers I believe because of who replaced him.


When you read Keegans book he almost comes across as bitter for the lack of fondness he is held in by LFC fans. Maybe lack of fondness isnt the right description but he doesn't get the same adulation as a lot of ex-players considering the success he did have.
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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #233 on: November 13, 2011, 03:26:03 pm »
When you read Keegans book he almost comes across as bitter for the lack of fondness he is held in by LFC fans. Maybe lack of fondness isnt the right description but he doesn't get the same adulation as a lot of ex-players considering the success he did have.

anyone with half a clue regards him with great affection...alas, time and bellendery has overtaken us all..
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #234 on: November 13, 2011, 03:27:09 pm »
Maybe he may mean the ones who never saw him as a player but only as an opposing manager? The ones that did see him I reckon only have good memories of Keegan the legend for us. He gave us some great times.
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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #235 on: November 13, 2011, 03:33:34 pm »
I had a photograph of Keegan and Shankly shaking hands before a game at Anfield (might have been a testimonial) and the look of respect between the two of them hit you like a sledgehammer.
 Wish I knew what happened to it. :(

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #236 on: November 13, 2011, 05:20:16 pm »
I think part of the reason hes not got the recognition with us is that we have legends, we have so many legends from the 60's up to Gerrard are Carra, where as Newcastle have.... no one, so they have latched on to Keegan and elevated him to god level.
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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #237 on: November 14, 2011, 04:30:20 pm »
Not by a long way. Dont think anyone from that era do

The guy was a goal machine. On 60 minutes now, hes allright is Keegan

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #238 on: November 14, 2011, 04:39:43 pm »
I was gutted when he left. Then, thanks to the quality of his replacement, I didn't miss him at all. That's why he doesn't get the recognition he deserves. I was a green kid who didn't understand how rare are players like that, how rare managers like our sequence of greats, how rare the synchronicity that brings the elements together to forge a dominating team.
Yorky's post is a great summary of his importance.

Offline rushyman

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Re: Does Kevin Keegan get enough recognition for what he achieved at Liverpool?
« Reply #239 on: November 14, 2011, 06:21:21 pm »
I was a green kid who didn't understand how rare are players like that, how rare managers like our sequence of greats, how rare the synchronicity that brings the elements together to forge a dominating team.

Mate that sums up a lot of our feelings now. I mean even my old man whos 68 was in his 20's when we started winning stuff. OK he saw us in the 2nd Division but he was very young then

Thats why theres a lot of frustration around.

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