Topic: The Klopp Template

[Dave McCoy]

I am sure Sky can afford any paid data or performance analytics software out there though.

Sure. My point though is there is no way for us to put it into context. If we ran more than last year but we're still getting out run in every game when that didn't happen last year then that doesn't really mean anything good, does it? I don't see it on Sky's twitter feed either and nobody else is posting it.

as I said it was sourced from Opta so I assumed it would be reliable

See above.

[Chris~]

I agree it needs context of how far we run compared to to others this year as well, but as you also said, this kind of data isn't common and so thought it was interesting to share as it goes against a bit of the general narrative. Feel free to spread it across Twitter.

[Knight]

I think the key stat there is possession won in the final third. Given our identity that is an awful drop off.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

I think the key stat there is possession won in the final third. Given our identity that is an awful drop off.

That implicates the forwards for not pressing rather than the central midfield.

[redk84]

I agree it needs context of how far we run compared to to others this year as well, but as you also said, this kind of data isn't common and so thought it was interesting to share as it goes against a bit of the general narrative.

Think there's truth in what a poster above said about us not being as good in possession this season. Naturally without key personnel and bad form everywhere...
We are losing the ball in silly places and sometimes rushing attacks when we don't need to...
These are not new issues, we have been guilty of this sort of thing in the past too.

There is also a general narrative going that we managed the game much better last season. This triggered a memory of mine as that was one of my concerns in the beginning part of the season, that we were not doing that well enough and letting in too many goals - we were 14 points behind at a stage for a reason...

We did turn it around. And then some, being the closest team in history to a quad..
We have to again...to get top 4 which is shit but a necessity

CL is in the bag tho 

[shuie]

That makes sense actually our best performances this season has been while we have had a fit Jota/Diaz, who can press and provide width at the same time. Carvalho and Elliott aren't used to it yet so no time for implementing those triggers.

 

[killer-heels]

That implicates the forwards for not pressing rather than the central midfield.

Thats clearly one of the, what is unfortunately, many issues taking place. I have said it several times but the Jota-Diaz-Salah attack was the best for pressing. Then the midfield just doesnt have the legs to cover the gaps.

Apart from the horrendous individual errors from Gomez, the defence have been left out to dry.

[grenny158]

Things are bad, but:

The 'World Cup' argument is bollocks

The 'they can't be bothered' argument is bollocks

The 'fat contract' argument is bollocks

The 'Pep's book' argument is bollocks

The 'Klopp doesn't know what tactics to use' argument is bollocks

The 'if only the club had done what I said' argument is bollocks

The truth is almost certainly to be found within what klopp has already identified or hinted at: too many injuries, mental and physical tiredness, a brutal previous season and a brutal timeframe for this season, with games every few days.

But those 'reasons' aren't sexy enough for a lot here, it seems, and so they have to invent their own, which coincidentally tend to suit their own agendas and favourite moans.

At the top level tiny margins make a huge difference. We all claim we believe this and undertsand it - until it actually manifests, at which point some decide to ignore it completely.

The only two arguments that have some merit are the team age profile, which should be better but isn't due to injury and lack of player turnover (which is not as simple as pressing a button, as some seem to think), and a possibility that the preason training regimen might not have worked out as hoped.

But whatever it is we have to deal with it: the coaches by finding solutions and the fans by taking the present realities philosophically and accepting that we can't be amazing all the time, that there'll be ups and down and that support means dealing with both the good times and bad times with equanimity

I agree with most of what you have said here, but I would add that failing to strengthen the team in the key area of midfield is another argument that has merit. We absolutely should not have relied upon the likes of Keita, Ox, Jones, Thiago as 'enough numbers in midfield' or whatever it was that Jurgen said at the beginning of the season. In addition to that, not sure anyone could have predicted Fabinho's form being so bad either. For me, one of our greatest strengths under Klopp has been our ability to control games, and control does not primarily come from your attack or defence, but rather from your midfield.

Our midfield are all over the place at the moment and are completely unable to control games when it really matters. In addition, Fabinho is giving little to no cover to our defence and opposing players are just strolling past him. It is so bad that I wonder whether Bajcetic is not a better option, despite his inexperience.

The overriding solution to all of this is to strengthen in midfield, both in January and in the summer. Get in the likes of Barella, Le Fee from LOrient and maybe Caicedo (or similar players to those 3) and you will see a massive change in our ability to control games and win those games that should be 3 pointers.

[lionel_messias]

I agree with most of what you have said here, but I would add that failing to strengthen the team in the key area of midfield is another argument that has merit. We absolutely should not have relied upon the likes of Keita, Ox, Jones, Thiago as 'enough numbers in midfield' or whatever it was that Jurgen said at the beginning of the season. In addition to that, not sure anyone could have predicted Fabinho's form being so bad either. For me, one of our greatest strengths under Klopp has been our ability to control games, and control does not primarily come from your attack or defence, but rather from your midfield.

Our midfield are all over the place at the moment and are completely unable to control games when it really matters. In addition, Fabinho is giving little to no cover to our defence and opposing players are just strolling past him. It is so bad that I wonder whether Bajcetic is not a better option, despite his inexperience.

The overriding solution to all of this is to strengthen in midfield, both in January and in the summer. Get in the likes of Barella, Le Fee from LOrient and maybe Caicedo (or similar players to those 3) and you will see a massive change in our ability to control games and win those games that should be 3 pointers.

Please tell me you are genuinely suggesting a player called

Le Fee

for us and I'll have you winning today's RAWK?


Prize is: you get the mod the transfer forum on deadline day.

[grenny158]

Please tell me you are genuinely suggesting a player called

Le Fee

for us and I'll have you winning today's RAWK?


Prize is: you get the mod the transfer forum on deadline day.

  at the prize.

Yep .. Enzo Le Fee, dynamic 22 year old central/attacking midfielder from L'Orient.

Only problem is that FSG probably won't fucking pay Le Fee in order for us to get him

[lionel_messias]

at the prize.

Yep .. Enzo Le Fee, dynamic 22 year old central/attacking midfielder from L'Orient.

Only problem is that FSG probably won't fucking pay Le Fee in order for us to get him

Who will negotiate Le Fee?

And later in his career will he become Enzo Le Free?

[WanderlustRed]

It's simple to me. You can't play high tempo football when half the team is coming back too early from injuries. And that's happening because we didn't bolster the squad enough in the summer.

9 first team midfielders.

Klopp needed to modify the preseason because how many games the previous season had been if that is an issue which many are saying it is, and with the compressed schedule bc of the world cup. Doesn't seem he did. Also doesn't seem to have been able to reduce the tempo to compensate for that mistake.

Can't really blame the money people for saying "we've bought 3 teams worth of midfielders, where have they all gone?"

[Dr Stu-Pid]

I am going to reply to a post from the FSG thread in here because this is a better place for it I think. It's a stream of consciousness rather than a post to be over-analysed or torn apart, but after reading so many negative posts and threads on here lately I just needed somewhere to post something like this.

I couldn’t give a shit about the last five years they were brilliant but we need to look forward not back

You see, I couldn't agree with this any less. I don't expect success and I don't expect us to be a straight line in terms of performance. We've climbed the heights and won everything that there is to win, and that is ultimately the goal of football. Some people have said that we should have broken up the team after the league win. Sold players and refreshed the squad, moved on Milner, Henderson, and others. But those players were a key part of the performances last season, and I wouldn't swap last season for a better season this year, because you never know if another season like last season will ever come around again. I said at the start of the season that everything from here was gravy, and I still stand by that.

Maybe we caught lightning in a bottle with everything that happened. Edwards and his team being ahead of the field and basically batting 1.000 in terms of success rate. Signing unique players like Gini, Matip, Mane, Firmino and Salah. Having a unique spirit, energy and drive that came from characters like Henderson, Milner, Robertson, and others. Having Alexander-Arnold come through the academy at just the right time to transform the position of full back, mad squad players like Origi and Shaqiri who delivered huge moments, and of course having Barcelona desperate enough to massively overpay for Coutinho so that we could sign two world class players to complete the jigsaw.

Some people seem happy to just move on from that as if it never happened. Suddenly the owners that delivered that platform for success are awful, the players that gave everything that they had are poor or have bad attitudes, and even Klopp is starting to come in for some criticism. Personally I never want to become an entitled fan. If I ever became like that idiot James that posts on here then I would want someone to give me a good smack round the head and tell me to walk away. I know fans of other clubs that would kill for just one of the trophies that we have won, and will likely never reach a European final, let alone 3 CL finals in 5 years. I'll be disappointed if we fall away this season and finish 5th or 6th, but I certainly won't be angry, and I certainly wouldn't turn on the players and manger (and backroom staff) that have helped us achieve so much. Without City and their cheating we would have won even more, and maybe without having to raise the bar so high and play with such ridiculous intensity every week we wouldn't have seen such a drop off. Maybe this was just the price that we had to pay.

This season is far from over. 4th is still a realistic goal, especially with the break for the World Cup allowing us to reset everything. We still have 3 other trophies to fight for, and if we do end up finishing 5th or 6th this year then f*ck it, we'll just have to add that Europa League trophy to the pile next season to complete the set for Klopp and Henderson.

[Knight]

Good post Dr. Just one thing. I'd swap last season for any season where we win the premier league or the CL. We came so close, and it was brilliant. But at the end of the day we fell short where it most matters. Aint no prizes for finishing runner up in the league or the CL.

[Knight]

That implicates the forwards for not pressing rather than the central midfield.

It includes the forwards, but if you think our pressing is just down to the forwards you don't understand pressing.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

It includes the forwards, but if you think our pressing is just down to the forwards you don't understand pressing.

Erm, its the final 3. You don't expect fabinho and Hendo to run up and press opposition players near the box, by themselves, do you?

Press starts from the front. If we are not pressing as much in the final third, forwards are as culpable.

[paddysour]

I agree it needs context of how far we run compared to to others this year as well, but as you also said, this kind of data isn't common and so thought it was interesting to share as it goes against a bit of the general narrative. Feel free to spread it across Twitter.

The distance itself isn't really the important bit, someone ambling back is still covering ground. "Intensity is our identity" is the more important bit, and AIUnderPressurePodcast tweeted out these metrics:



We're not covering ground at speed which is the real issue. You can see this in action when Klopp first arrived, we pressured everything and covered loads of ground. But as we got smarter and more ingrained in the system, we covered less ground but still with the right intensity. Our high speed runs and sprints have fallen off a cliff this season.

[newterp]

The distance itself isn't really the important bit, someone ambling back is still covering ground. "Intensity is our identity" is the more important bit, and AIUnderPressurePodcast tweeted out these metrics:



We're not covering ground at speed which is the real issue. You can see this in action when Klopp first arrived, we pressured everything and covered loads of ground. But as we got smarter and more ingrained in the system, we covered less ground but still with the right intensity. Our high speed runs and sprints have fallen off a cliff this season.

What was the best mix - 19/20 or 21/22?

[Chris~]

The distance itself isn't really the important bit, someone ambling back is still covering ground. "Intensity is our identity" is the more important bit, and AIUnderPressurePodcast tweeted out these metrics:



We're not covering ground at speed which is the real issue. You can see this in action when Klopp first arrived, we pressured everything and covered loads of ground. But as we got smarter and more ingrained in the system, we covered less ground but still with the right intensity. Our high speed runs and sprints have fallen off a cliff this season.

Yeah that's great (assume this is taken from Opta as well) and ties up with what we're seeing and probably ties with the lack of recoveries in the opposition final third. Still covering the ground but not getting their as quick as we used to, not able to recover either. A drop that big looks like a team a wide issue as well and not just midfield, guessing it's not broken down that far though?

[Billy Elliot]

9 first team midfielders.

Klopp needed to modify the preseason because how many games the previous season had been if that is an issue which many are saying it is, and with the compressed schedule bc of the world cup. Doesn't seem he did. Also doesn't seem to have been able to reduce the tempo to compensate for that mistake.

Can't really blame the money people for saying "we've bought 3 teams worth of midfielders, where have they all gone?"

Five of them are around or over 30. Two of them are kids who have just came through the system. Only one of them is a relatively new signing - and that's not enough. To stay at the top you need to be constantly refreshing.

Don't ask me to back my opinion up with a chart or anything though 

[Knight]

Erm, its the final 3. You don't expect fabinho and Hendo to run up and press opposition players near the box, by themselves, do you?

Press starts from the front. If we are not pressing as much in the final third, forwards are as culpable.

You have got literally no idea what you’re talking about. Final 3rd ball recoveries due to pressing and counter pressing require a whole team working in unison to make work. Of course I don’t expect fab or Henderson to do it own their own, and no where did I imply it. But if we’re not making final 3rd recoveries it’s plain wrong to blame it purely on the forwards. The fullbacks, at least 2 of the midfielders and the forwards are all integral to active pressing and the whole team is integral to making it work as a whole. Like seriously, you need to go and watch Keita vs City in the semi final of the cup last season. Perhaps the most extraordinary front footed pressing performance from a midfielder you’ll ever see. And then tell me our pressing isn’t about the midfielders.

[Ghost Town]

I am going to reply to a post from the FSG thread in here because this is a better place for it I think. It's a stream of consciousness rather than a post to be over-analysed or torn apart, but after reading so many negative posts and threads on here lately I just needed somewhere to post something like this.

You see, I couldn't agree with this any less. I don't expect success and I don't expect us to be a straight line in terms of performance. We've climbed the heights and won everything that there is to win, and that is ultimately the goal of football. Some people have said that we should have broken up the team after the league win. Sold players and refreshed the squad, moved on Milner, Henderson, and others. But those players were a key part of the performances last season, and I wouldn't swap last season for a better season this year, because you never know if another season like last season will ever come around again. I said at the start of the season that everything from here was gravy, and I still stand by that.

Maybe we caught lightning in a bottle with everything that happened. Edwards and his team being ahead of the field and basically batting 1.000 in terms of success rate. Signing unique players like Gini, Matip, Mane, Firmino and Salah. Having a unique spirit, energy and drive that came from characters like Henderson, Milner, Robertson, and others. Having Alexander-Arnold come through the academy at just the right time to transform the position of full back, mad squad players like Origi and Shaqiri who delivered huge moments, and of course having Barcelona desperate enough to massively overpay for Coutinho so that we could sign two world class players to complete the jigsaw.

Some people seem happy to just move on from that as if it never happened. Suddenly the owners that delivered that platform for success are awful, the players that gave everything that they had are poor or have bad attitudes, and even Klopp is starting to come in for some criticism. Personally I never want to become an entitled fan. If I ever became like that idiot James that posts on here then I would want someone to give me a good smack round the head and tell me to walk away. I know fans of other clubs that would kill for just one of the trophies that we have won, and will likely never reach a European final, let alone 3 CL finals in 5 years. I'll be disappointed if we fall away this season and finish 5th or 6th, but I certainly won't be angry, and I certainly wouldn't turn on the players and manger (and backroom staff) that have helped us achieve so much. Without City and their cheating we would have won even more, and maybe without having to raise the bar so high and play with such ridiculous intensity every week we wouldn't have seen such a drop off. Maybe this was just the price that we had to pay.

This season is far from over. 4th is still a realistic goal, especially with the break for the World Cup allowing us to reset everything. We still have 3 other trophies to fight for, and if we do end up finishing 5th or 6th this year then f*ck it, we'll just have to add that Europa League trophy to the pile next season to complete the set for Klopp and Henderson.

Great post, as always Doc!

Football support is about good times and not so good times. Bright light will always cast a shadow and you need the times of darkness to appreciate the days in the sun.

There was a time, it seemed, when fans instinctively understood this; when the more problems and difficulties a team was facing/going through, the more vocal and unstinting the support was, because it was instinctively understood that it was needed more during those times.

We seem to be in a very different paradigm these days, one largely ruled by anger, entitlement and emotional incontinence.

[Dave McCoy]

The one thing I'm amazed by is that no one now mentions our high off-side line being gone when that was a huge facet of our team ever since VvD was signed. We induced triple the off-sides calls of any other team last year and now we're middle of the pack which is less than half of what Fulham has at the top. This really is a seismic change in how we play, leads into the fact that we have to defend more and yet it's as if this was never a thing in reading around here and other LFC tactics places.

[WanderlustRed]

Five of them are around or over 30. Two of them are kids who have just came through the system. Only one of them is a relatively new signing - and that's not enough. To stay at the top you need to be constantly refreshing.

Don't ask me to back my opinion up with a chart or anything though 

Doesn't really matter how old they are other than Milner. It's not like there's a switch that flips when you turn 30. Thiago is still more than fine at 31. Henderson is playing a few less minutes but still our best midfield has him in it. Neither of them are massively valuable in the transfer market so you might as well keep them as long as makes sense.

Don't matter how young they are either. If you're good enough, you're old enough. Elliott was slated to play a major role last year before his injury, and is doing so now. Seems pretty clear he's good enough. Jones was doing the same before his slate of frankly bizarre injuries.

I can see writing off Ox, sadly considering the circumstances, and Keita is like well hopefully can get half a season and then whatever happens with his contract. Milner...who knows but definitely should be planning for a future without him.

But that still leaves like 5 guys for 3 spots for 2023 (I wouldn't expect Carvalho to be a mid). So could use 1 new one (and it pretty much has to be a 6/8) but after that it's like they'd better be world class or an academy signing or they might not play much, unless there's an additional outgoing.

[tubby]

Back to 433 then?  Looked a more compact version tonight, didn't see Trent popping up in midfield and the line wasn't as high as before.

It looked like when we pressed them high, Salah came inside with Milner/Elliott pushing up wide right so we had a bank of four pressuring their defenders.  Whoever plays that right-sided midfield role has a hell of a lot of running to do.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Exactly what I called for after the Leeds game, back to basics and being compact in midfield.

[killer-heels]

Exactly what I called for after the Leeds game, back to basics and being compact in midfield.

Genius move by Klopp that. The 4-3-3 wasn’t working, he flogs the players in a 4-4-2 and then a mad diamond so much that they are forced to make 4-3-3 work otherwise he will make them endure another system change.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Genius move by Klopp that. The 4-3-3 wasn’t working, he flogs the players in a 4-4-2 and then a mad diamond so much that they are forced to make 4-3-3 work otherwise he will make them endure another system change.

He had Boehly's 4-4-3 ready to try next.

[paddysour]

Back to 433 then?  Looked a more compact version tonight, didn't see Trent popping up in midfield and the line wasn't as high as before.

We need to keep this now and get Nunez integrated in it. No messing with fancy stuff around Trent, back to the tactics that made us one of the best around

[Dave McCoy]

Exactly what I called for after the Leeds game, back to basics and being compact in midfield.

I don't think we were any more compact in midfield considering Milner was one of the three and was going walkabout at his leisure. What I would say is we weren't willing to overextend to create a chance so there was never even number rushes for Napoli going the other way so it never seemed that stretched. The off-set was we were pretty toothless in attack sans the odd potential break by Salah.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Like I said yesterday, the system is broken. It doesn't help that individuals are making more mistakes but you can argue that the mistakes are a result of having to deal with more defensive actions too.

Klopp's system utilizes risk vs reward, and at this moment, the reward is definitely not worth the risk and I honestly don't see any benefit from whatever we're doing on the right side.

A couple of seasons ago, City started in a similar manner like us (granted the competition now is more fierce) with 11 points after 7 games, 1 more than Liverpool's current haul. Pep stopped trying to do anything creative, just went to basics. He forgone trying to utilize the wings, packed the middle and made sure that the team is more compact, they pressed less than other seasons and dropped deeper so that they won't tire in a compact schedule. Right now, Klopp needs to be pragmatic and do something similar, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The squad needed reinforcement especially in midfield, but that's the hand that he has been dealt with and you got to adapt. Even the individual mistakes, are compounded by the fact that we have to deal with more defensive actions than past seasons. But if we play with the same naivety, trusting the same broken system, and expect the same results, then that's madness.

https://youtu.be/pisSV1OqPMA

Hopefully a trend and we do the same vs Spurs and beyond. Back to basics, no fancy stuff, inverted wingbacks, etc. Try that when the engine is fully functional and healthy.

[Hazell]

I am going to reply to a post from the FSG thread in here because this is a better place for it I think. It's a stream of consciousness rather than a post to be over-analysed or torn apart, but after reading so many negative posts and threads on here lately I just needed somewhere to post something like this.

You see, I couldn't agree with this any less. I don't expect success and I don't expect us to be a straight line in terms of performance. We've climbed the heights and won everything that there is to win, and that is ultimately the goal of football. Some people have said that we should have broken up the team after the league win. Sold players and refreshed the squad, moved on Milner, Henderson, and others. But those players were a key part of the performances last season, and I wouldn't swap last season for a better season this year, because you never know if another season like last season will ever come around again. I said at the start of the season that everything from here was gravy, and I still stand by that.

Maybe we caught lightning in a bottle with everything that happened. Edwards and his team being ahead of the field and basically batting 1.000 in terms of success rate. Signing unique players like Gini, Matip, Mane, Firmino and Salah. Having a unique spirit, energy and drive that came from characters like Henderson, Milner, Robertson, and others. Having Alexander-Arnold come through the academy at just the right time to transform the position of full back, mad squad players like Origi and Shaqiri who delivered huge moments, and of course having Barcelona desperate enough to massively overpay for Coutinho so that we could sign two world class players to complete the jigsaw.

Some people seem happy to just move on from that as if it never happened. Suddenly the owners that delivered that platform for success are awful, the players that gave everything that they had are poor or have bad attitudes, and even Klopp is starting to come in for some criticism. Personally I never want to become an entitled fan. If I ever became like that idiot James that posts on here then I would want someone to give me a good smack round the head and tell me to walk away. I know fans of other clubs that would kill for just one of the trophies that we have won, and will likely never reach a European final, let alone 3 CL finals in 5 years. I'll be disappointed if we fall away this season and finish 5th or 6th, but I certainly won't be angry, and I certainly wouldn't turn on the players and manger (and backroom staff) that have helped us achieve so much. Without City and their cheating we would have won even more, and maybe without having to raise the bar so high and play with such ridiculous intensity every week we wouldn't have seen such a drop off. Maybe this was just the price that we had to pay.

This season is far from over. 4th is still a realistic goal, especially with the break for the World Cup allowing us to reset everything. We still have 3 other trophies to fight for, and if we do end up finishing 5th or 6th this year then f*ck it, we'll just have to add that Europa League trophy to the pile next season to complete the set for Klopp and Henderson.

Been meaning to respond to this for a while, I was trying to find the right words about how I'm feeling about the club and team at present but was struggling. It's this. Brilliant post mate.

[kavah]

Been meaning to respond to this for a while, I was trying to find the right words about how I'm feeling about the club and team at present but was struggling. It's this. Brilliant post mate.

Yes it's a great post

[slotmachine]

Been meaning to respond to this for a while, I was trying to find the right words about how I'm feeling about the club and team at present but was struggling. It's this. Brilliant post mate.

I concur. Missed this one only just read it. Superb post.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Needs to be some massive questions about the direction this team is going.

Losing to Leeds, Brentford and Forest is fucking awful. If we haven’t got the players to play expansively and attacking then adjust the tactics.

This isn’t on Klopp but I think we need a shake up with the back room staff.

[rushyman]

Too many goals in the injury list

[Clint Eastwood]

Really easy to play against us at the moment. Don’t give our forwards space and just smack it up the field.

[Nick110581]

Needs to be some massive questions about the direction this team is going.

Losing to Leeds, Brentford and Forest is fucking awful. If we haven’t got the players to play expansively and attacking then adjust the tactics.

This isn’t on Klopp but I think we need a shake up with the back room staff.

He picks the side and it’s clear that Elliott isn’t a midfielder yet he plays all the time.

[Phineus]

We don’t have the players to physically earn the right for how we want to play.

It’s a huge problem.

[Caps4444]

I think the key stat there is possession won in the final third. Given our identity that is an awful drop off.

Yes - that’s almost a 50% drop.