Topic: Jamie Carragher

[The Jackal]

Oh do be quiet. If you have nothing constructive to add then dont bother.

OK, I'll rephrase that, since you obviously missed my point:

Being a legend (which Carra undoubtedly is), or whatever your performances or exploits have been in the past, does not automatically qualify you to be starting week in week out. Players should be picked on merit - on what they are currently able to offer to the team, and people obviously want to discuss what Carra currently offers to the team in this thread. In that context, simply saying 'Legend. End of.' is actually what doesn't add anything constructive to the debate.

[Seebab]

Were you praying to Jamie or lighting some incense for him?

Hehehe. Made me chuckle.

[7777]

If ever a thread has gone round in circles this is it

Carra is shit

No he isn't

Yeah he is

No he isn't

[Chivasino]

If ever a thread has gone round in circles this is it

Not a patch on any of the Lucas thread.

I don't think anyone is saying he is shite. I think we can all agree that he is a top defender with still a lot to offer. But, in Skrtel and Agger, we have two very good, pacy, defenders who would allow us to play a more dynamic game.

[shelovesyou]

I guess you didnt read my post? Were you praying to Jamie or lighting some incense for him?

I did and I agreed with a lot of what you said but he is a top quality defender and would walk over hot coals to win a ball , you cannot say that about Skrtel or Agger, not yet anyway. Yes they are good defenders but they dont quite have the same heart for the fight.

[Chivasino]

you cannot say that about Skrtel or Agger, not yet anyway.

Why can't you? I don't understand how you can some to such a conclusion? Is there some scientific formula involved?

And even if they didn't walk over hot coal, they would probably run around and still get to the other side quicker than Jamie. And there in lies the need to get these two into the first team asap.

[felix.]

i had to laugh at his post arse match interview, carra was asked whether he felt sorry for pepe reina, concluded his answer with 'he's not a problem'.

[shelovesyou]

Why can't you? I don't understand how you can some to such a conclusion? Is there some scientific formula involved?

And even if they didn't walk over hot coal, they would probably run around and still get to the other side quicker than Jamie. And there in lies the need to get these two into the first team asap.

Mate you cant put a price on experience. No formula mate just see it with yer own eyes week in week out.

[General Alonso]

Why can't you? I don't understand how you can some to such a conclusion? Is there some scientific formula involved?

And even if they didn't walk over hot coal, they would probably run around and still get to the other side quicker than Jamie. And there in lies the need to get these two into the first team asap.

Yeah, it's the Carragher Cramp Co-effecient.

[The Jackal]

I did and I agreed with a lot of what you said but he is a top quality defender and would walk over hot coals to win a ball , you cannot say that about Skrtel or Agger, not yet anyway. Yes they are good defenders but they dont quite have the same heart for the fight.

Sometimes - a lot of the time, even - that's not what's most important in terms of winning a football match.. against Arsenal in the 2nd half, yes, Carra's qualities came to the fore. However, surely you can see that playing Agger and Skrtel as a pair would allow us to play a higher line (which helps both the defensive and attacking side of our game - notice how Arsenal's high line practically nullified Joe Cole), and also improve our distribution from the back and our possession play - again helping us both in a defensive and attacking sense.

This is as clear as day to me, and I really don't understand why some people can't see it.

[felix.]

I did and I agreed with a lot of what you said but he is a top quality defender and would walk over hot coals to win a ball , you cannot say that about Skrtel or Agger, not yet anyway. Yes they are good defenders but they dont quite have the same heart for the fight.

i don't see why not. agger has put his body on the line plenty of times, braving through all sorts of injuries, and i've never seen skrtel shy away from a tackle or look anything other than 100% committed. in fact skrtel played for roughly an hour with a broken jaw on that one occasion. 

[Chivasino]

Mate you cant put a price on experience. No formula mate just see it with yer own eyes week in week out.

Agger and Skrtel aren't inexperienced though. They are both seasonsed internationals who both know what demands the premiership will put on them.

As a pair they will make mistakes, but they need a chance to form a Partnership. And I don't see anything in their game, week in week out, to suggest that they wouldn't put their body on the line.

Infact I would say that Jamie's chronic lack of pace sometimes makes his defending look more desperate, and more heroic in some ways. Whereas a faster defender may have cleaned up with a lot less fuss. You might find that offensive and disrespectful towards a legend, but it's just the way I see it now and again.

[Mr Sitter]

i had to laugh at his post arse match interview, carra was asked whether he felt sorry for pepe reina, concluded his answer with 'he's not a problem'.

agger/skert would have answered better!

[BIGdavalad]

England is probably a bad example as the whole team were performing like headless chickens throughout the tournament. I still think he would have been better than Upson in the Germany game. The fact was, Terry was out of position to accomodate Upson, to the detriment of the team, whereas Carra would have been on the right of centre.

Considering how quickly Germany were counter-attacking that day, Terry and Carra would probably have been the worst possible combination of centre backs for England.

In my opinion anyway.

[felix.]

agger/skert would have answered better!

[scatman]

I did and I agreed with a lot of what you said but he is a top quality defender and would walk over hot coals to win a ball , you cannot say that about Skrtel or Agger, not yet anyway. Yes they are good defenders but they dont quite have the same heart for the fight.

I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion. That's the thing, it seems that only Carragher is allowed to be a hero who fights for the team and an organiser in defence.

Despite numerous dislocated bones and bloodied faces for Agger and Skrtel and like I said previously captaining their respective countries whilst also being the senior centre backs at the World Cup must mean they have the ability to organise defences. Carragher broke Skrtel's jaw, the dude fucking carried on playing... Agger can't even remember the Arsenal match because his face was conveniently in the way of a cross.

They need a chance to be given so we can see how different our game would be with both as a centre half pairing, see if they can organise together, the evidence is there that they can organise as seen for Denmark and Slovakia.

Carragher is still easily in the top 3 centre backs we have at the club, no-one is saying Wilson and Ayala are ahead of him in the pecking order and we should dump him. I think The Jackal puts it perfectly like has been resonated by others in the last 10 pages.

[sattapaartridge]

carragher is a tough subject for me.

his key attributes for me are:

strong leadership
reads the game well
puts his body on the line
strong in the tackle
decent in the air

his bad points are:

lacks pace
lacks technique
looks too much for the longer ball/hoofing when the attacking players cannot break down the parked bus.

its a tough decision really to completely drop carra from the 1st eleven. i'd be reluctant because only agger has shown some leadership in the back line. but that leadership may wane when its "left" to carra. i think a form of rotation is needed at centreback.

for me its his leadership and organisation of the back line that keeps him in the team. i cannot trust anyone to captain the team should both carra and gerrard be out. the only ones i would be inclined to give the captaincy/lead the team would be (want-a-way) mascherano, glen johnson (who's shown plenty of fight in the past year) or possibly daniel agger(who's desire has been very apparent). all of whom are somewhat "junior" to the likes of jovanovic, kuyt, cole, aurelio and maxi.

[shelovesyou]

i don't see why not. agger has put his body on the line plenty of times, braving through all sorts of injuries, and i've never seen skrtel shy away from a tackle or look anything other than 100% committed. in fact skrtel played for roughly an hour with a broken jaw on that one occasion. 

All good points mate. But with Carra you know you are going to get that little bit more being from the area etc.
OK people have differing opinions but some of the comments on here are outright disrespectful to the man.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Agger should be included in the heroic defenders formula calculation though. Playing on with little idea where you are with a head injury that you don't really know for sure couldn't kill you just about qualifies him I think.

Somebody shoot Skrtel in the shoulder in the next game.  If he plays on bleeding to death, job done.Then we'll be sorted with heroes on a patch with the incumbent Spartan.

[scatman]

Yorky i found this

Nor do I. But I believe the bigger risk of the 2-2 draw against Stoke - or Hull - at home will be if Carra plays. He is in a pattern now of starting every season slightly worse than he finished the one before. Skrtel and Agger are international footballers of high renown. They have played at the  top level now for many years. There's a tendency however to speak of them like they're still raw kids. They aren't. So I don't see the risk. Swapping the callow Hansen for the experienced Hughes the year after Emlyn had lifted the European Cup was risky. You could almost call it an irresponsible throw of the dice by Sir Bob. Playing Agger-Skrtel is like playing with loaded dice by comparison. 

[Mr Sitter]

This is the problem at the moment in this thread, this is how the argument is going

People who don't think Carragher deserves to start in the centre of defence say this:

1. He's too slow, so as a result we play deeper
2. His passing is very poor and he reverts to using the long ball a lot meaning our midfielders get bypassed and we never control possession in games
3. He has refused to pass to certain players in the past
4. He puts himself before the club with remarks like how he will leave if he's consigned to being a squad player

People who argue that he still plays reply with shit like this:

1 and 2. He puts his body on the line and organises our defence. - Obviously not thinking the reason he has to do this is due to us playing deep and due to his lack of pace. Organisation is just something to prop him on a pedestal - despite the other 2 centre halfs captaining their respective countries recently and being the main centre half in those lineups at the World Cup.
3 and 4. It's slander he's a legend of the club, how can you say that about him? BLAH BLAH BLAH - Various sources mentioned including the legendary player's own autobiography, but no it's a disgrace even mentioning things he said in there as they just show him in a bad light.

Now the people in arguing for his inclusion are the reason he's never been dropped. I've said it before the guy is on pedestal in Liverpool higher than Jesus/God are in St Peter's, Rome. Now imagine the Catholic church saying they are dropping Jesus from being the son of God and it was really St Paul, imagine the outrage. That's probably something similar that would happen from those who are against him even being dropped to the bench.


There was a good post above which highlighted for as much of a hero Carragher was in that Istanbul game, he was just as much a villain.

Of course this is all down to Hodgson, but to be honest arguing for Carragher being first team ahead of Skrtel and Agger just seems to me in my being a man with not much tactical/coaching experience, idiotic.

A new low

[shelovesyou]

I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion. That's the thing, it seems that only Carragher is allowed to be a hero who fights for the team and an organiser in defence.

Despite numerous dislocated bones and bloodied faces for Agger and Skrtel and like I said previously captaining their respective countries whilst also being the senior centre backs at the World Cup must mean they have the ability to organise defences. Carragher broke Skrtel's jaw, the dude fucking carried on playing... Agger can't even remember the Arsenal match because his face was conveniently in the way of a cross.

They need a chance to be given so we can see how different our game would be with both as a centre half pairing, see if they can organise together, the evidence is there that they can organise as seen for Denmark and Slovakia.

Carragher is still easily in the top 3 centre backs we have at the club, no-one is saying Wilson and Ayala are ahead of him in the pecking order and we should dump him. I think The Jackal puts it perfectly like has been resonated by others in the last 10 pages.

Again very good points regarding Skrtel and Agger and not once did I say he is the only one, it was an argument for his case to be in the team week in week out. And as someone else alluded to his leadership skills are unrivaled.

[rossipersempre]

i had to laugh at his post arse match interview, carra was asked whether he felt sorry for pepe reina, concluded his answer with 'he's not a problem'.

Not sure I understand that response. What do you think he meant by it?

[Sangria]

Oh do be quiet. If you have nothing constructive to add then dont bother.

How many teams have you coached or managed then mate ?

Clueless mate. Astonishing naivety.
His reading of the game is overrated ?
Whatever next.

[felix.]

Not sure I understand that response. What do you think he meant by it?

i'm implying that he thinks he's the manager, the boss of anfield.

he didn't say it directly in response to the question, he said 'yeah, we all make mistakes' etc, but at the end he finished with 'he's not a problem'. as if he identifies who the problem is and then sorts him out. he has got too big for his boots, it is obvious. if any other player came out with a 'i'll fuck off as soon as i'm dropped, i'm too good for the bench' interview, like he did last year, they'd get fucked off faster than riera.

[The Jackal]

i'm implying that he thinks he's the manager, the boss of anfield.

he didn't say it directly in response to the question, he said 'yeah, we all make mistakes' etc, but at the end he finished with 'he's not a problem'. as if he identifies who the problem is and then sorts him out. he has got too big for his boots, it is obvious. if any other player came out with a 'i'll fuck off as soon as i'm dropped, i'm too good for the bench' interview, like he did last year, they'd get fucked off faster than riera.

I think that's reading far too much into it.. I understood him to mean - 'the mistake won't be an issue - i.e. Pepe won't let it affect him, he'll bounce back straight away.

[Barney_Rubble]

Anyone know his stats on Championship Manager?

[Spanish Al]

Anyone know his stats on Championship Manager?

Not exactly, but I know he's good on it.

[Mr Sitter]

I think that's reading far too much into it.. I understood him to mean - 'the mistake won't be an issue - i.e. Pepe won't let it affect him, he'll bounce back straight away.

don't. just let them carry on with their agenda against a ledge.


this can just be boiled down to the fact that the out of towners will never appreciate what carra represents. how can they as they will never have that connection with a player or the immense sence of pride when he digs us out the shit again and again and again but not only that...he's one of us.

These fuckers slagging him...bet they've never even been to liverpool let alone seen him play.

[Barney_Rubble]

Not exactly, but I know he's good on it.

I'm sure Roy is keeping an eye on the situation.

[BIGdavalad]

this can just be boiled down to the fact that the out of towners will never appreciate what carra represents.

I think that's probably the most moronic argument that I've ever seen on this site and believe me, there's a fucking lot of competition for that particular title.

[felix.]

I think that's reading far too much into it.. I understood him to mean - 'the mistake won't be an issue - i.e. Pepe won't let it affect him, he'll bounce back straight away.

absolutely, the reina thing is just an interview. and i'm not 'reading into it' per se, rather i'm just reading it. i read (past tense) into carra's refusal to play RB, the bascombe exclusives, the way he behaves on the pitch - and deduced that carra has far too much power behind the scenes. i'm pointing out that the words he chooses reflect that.

[scared_person]

i'm implying that he thinks he's the manager, the boss of anfield.

he didn't say it directly in response to the question, he said 'yeah, we all make mistakes' etc, but at the end he finished with 'he's not a problem'. as if he identifies who the problem is and then sorts him out. he has got too big for his boots, it is obvious. if any other player came out with a 'i'll fuck off as soon as i'm dropped, i'm too good for the bench' interview, like he did last year, they'd get fucked off faster than riera.

You're reading a lot into very few words there!!

Can people not be balanced and reasonable on this?

Carra has been a great player and will be remembered as a club legend, and rightly so. Its hard to argue however that he's not on the wane. Some people will think he has a few seasons left as a starter, and some will think the negatives are starting to outweigh the positives. Personally I would drop him against the 'park the bus' teams at Anfield to see if we can play a higher line and move the ball around a bit quicker.

The issue of whether he's too big for his boots is slightly different, but what he said in interview about not knocking Rafa was pretty respectful I thought.

[Barney_Rubble]

Can people not be balanced and reasonable on this?

LOOOOOOOOL

Not been here long then ?

[felix.]

The issue of whether he's too big for his boots is slightly different, but what he said in interview about not knocking Rafa was pretty respectful I thought.

but what he said last year through bascombe, when it counted, was far from it. now that he's gone, of course carra will play the 'i won't slag of the previous set up' card.

[Seismic]

There comes a point in time where your determination on the pitch is restricted by your physical ability due to age. You can have all the determination in the world but still have limitations in speed, reaction and overall physical ability. I think Carragher is showing signs of this which is not something that Liverpool can afford, especially when you have predators such as Drogba, Tevez, Persie, Fabregas and the list goes on.

While Carraghers history at liverpool is and will be at legend status, especially as hes scouse through and through, he, the team and the management need to seriously consider his position within the team.

As humans, we naturally remember the negatives more than the positives. Therefore when he does make a really good tackle, or does a good job we take that as over and above expectation when its what he should be doing anyway.

I love Carragher for what he has done for the club but we need to move forward. 

[Barney_Rubble]

As humans, we naturally remember the negatives more than the positives.

Particularly when it's convenient and suits their purpose to do so...



(P.S. I think it's tripe, and I wouldn't have a clue where you'd pick it up from)

[farawayred]

As humans, we naturally remember the negatives more than the positives.

In fact, the opposite has been proven by science. Try and think of a vacation you've been on a number of years ago when some unpleasant moments have threatened to spoil it. Often you won't remember what that was, but you probably still cherish the good memories from the vacation.

[Seismic]

Particularly when it's convenient and suits their purpose to do so...



(P.S. I think it's tripe, and I wouldn't have a clue where you'd pick it up from)

Ok, lets use an example. When you call Ladbrokes to place a bet or you go into a shop to place a bet on Man City to get relegated at 500/1 (just for arguments sake) and some ass is particularly unhelpful in that shop or over the phone, or sounds like someone who doesn't give a shit you are more likely to remember them than someone who smiles and does their job efficiently. Why? because its their job in the first place... If this isn't what you do then you are indeed a special human being and I congratulate you sir.

[Mr Dilkington]

I always find it amusing when people say no one has a heart like Carra , no denying Carra has a big heart , but it's that old chestnut of the stereotypical English warrior type centre half. For years people ( intelligent football fans ) have known Carvalho has been Chelsea's best centre half , yet the tabloids and idiot football fans always hold Brave John Terry up as Chelsea's bestest centre half because he puts his body on the line for the cause. Carra is a legend , no doubts but we must move on. In all honesty Carra has been deteriorating since Athens , and Skrtel and Danny have been superior than him for about 18 months now. The reason Carra makes more last ditch tackles is because of the mess he gets himself into in the first place , it's usually his mistake that leads to him needing to make a hollywood last ditch tackle , Skrtel and Agger don't make them last ditch blocks as often as they deal with things first time around.

As Rapcage said above , last season at West Ham should have been the eye opener for every single Liverpool fan and indeed football fan that Carra needed phased out , but some are still clinching to past glories. The lad Hines is an average player , but Carra made him look like a world beater. It wasn't even skill , it was just direct and with a bit off pace and he did Carrra every single time on the outside. Lets move on guys , for the best of the team.