Author Topic: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?  (Read 330934 times)

Offline stevensr123

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #360 on: November 20, 2021, 12:25:29 am »
No matter what you think in terms of guilt, one thing that is obvious is this is the consequence of US gun laws, the fact  that a kid can set out to a protest wielding a semi automatic is the frightening thing for most of us on this side of the Atlantic. Pure madness. You'd go down for twenty years just for that here.
indeed, it’s bloody madness.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #361 on: November 20, 2021, 12:42:48 am »
One of them was unarmed so I'm not convinved arriving into a town and patrolling the streets with a semi automatic rifle in despite of a protest in support of a black man who was killed should be considered self defense.

Last I'll say for tonight.

Rosenbaum technically was armed on the second shot. Huber was armed as he was trying to pull the AR-15 from Kyle and Grosskreutz was armed with a Glock. I'll grant you Rosenbaum wasn't armed on the first shot but that's how close he was. I think the take away from this is don't chase and attack anyone with a gun.

As far as I know the Jacob Blake shooting was justified but that's by the by. Even if unjustified, demonstrations and protests are fine. Everybody has a right to a political voice but what happened in Kenosha and in many US cities last year was rioting and looting. This is some of what happened in Kenosha, give it a watch before dismissing what I'm saying and see if you agree.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/qZL-kxWarjY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/qZL-kxWarjY</a>

There is no evidence Kyle Rittenhouse went there because he didn't like black people or that he didn't like those who were arguing for black people to have a louder political voice.  to suggest otherwise is just another easy-to-swallow political narrative. The prosecution or media must have trawled Rittenhouse's internet history and probed into his personal life looking for any evidence of past racist beliefs yet no evidence has been uncovered. Because of this and because everybody he shot was white, race was never brought up at his trial. Instead, what seems most likely and what the evidence showed is Rittenhouse went there to protect his community.

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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #362 on: November 20, 2021, 12:59:09 am »
No matter what you think in terms of guilt, one thing that is obvious is this is the consequence of US gun laws, the fact  that a kid can set out to a protest wielding a semi automatic is the frightening thing for most of us on this side of the Atlantic. Pure madness. You'd go down for twenty years just for that here.

That's exactly my take on it as well. I've got a lot of time for America and for Americans (on both side of their political divide) but the collective blind-spot they have on gun control is just insane. It just boggles my mind that you can have two people shot dead and the fact that the shooter is found innocent is hailed as a victory for the gun lobby rather than the whole situation being seen as an utterly avoidable tragedy.

Offline Chakan

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #363 on: November 20, 2021, 01:05:05 am »
That's exactly my take on it as well. I've got a lot of time for America and for Americans (on both side of their political divide) but the collective blind-spot they have on gun control is just insane. It just boggles my mind that you can have two people shot dead and the fact that the shooter is found innocent is hailed as a victory for the gun lobby rather than the whole situation being seen as an utterly avoidable tragedy.

America doesn't even care about 20 children dying in a school shooting, what makes you think they care about 2 people being shot?

Offline The North Bank

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #364 on: November 20, 2021, 01:06:47 am »
Cross state lines armed to the teeth and walks into a protest. His armed vigilante look alone is enough to create real danger , then use the danger and threat he created, to shoot people dead. And guess what , it turns out he was  only there to clean up graffiti , help people in distress, lovely kid really, minding his own business, wanting to live out his fantasy as Charles Bronson for the night.
Absolutely fucking mental .

Offline Conocinico

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #365 on: November 20, 2021, 01:13:44 am »
Quick disclaimer that video I posted has an advertisement for a 2nd Amendment advert at the end. I'm 100% sure the original video didn't and I would rather have posted the original.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #366 on: November 20, 2021, 01:22:29 am »
Cross state lines armed to the teeth and walks into a protest. His armed vigilante look alone is enough to create real danger , then use the danger and threat he created, to shoot people dead. And guess what , it turns out he was  only there to clean up graffiti , help people in distress, lovely kid really, minding his own business, wanting to live out his fantasy as Charles Bronson for the night.
Absolutely fucking mental .

It's true though, he does seem like a good kid. He was cleaning up graffiti, he was offering first aid. He wasn't though minding his own business, he was minding someone else's business and I think I heard he was getting paid a little to do so.

Look a lot of you have got your facts wrong about the trial and it's like you've made up your mind that he was a monster. You want him to be. There's many in Kenosha that are like that too. Two-thirds of that city believed he was guilty before the trial. Polling suggested that a third of the jury would be convinced he was guilty and changing their minds would be almost impossible. It's a left-wing city and the jury was selected from that pool. Yet they did their job and listened to all the evidence, deliberated for four days and came to the only conclusion a reasonable person could. He didn't provoke anybody that night and acted in self-defence.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #367 on: November 20, 2021, 01:38:03 am »
It's true though, he does seem like a good kid. He was cleaning up graffiti, he was offering first aid. He wasn't though minding his own business, he was minding someone else's business and I think I heard he was getting paid a little to do so.


Yeah - armed with a semi-automatic weapon!

I want to give him some leeway as he is so young . But as far as I'm concerned a 'good kid' looks at that situation and thinks that if the only way he can be safe cleaning up/doing first aid etc is if he is carrying an AR-15 it is probably a situation that he should stay out of. So for me the most generous way I can see it is that he was utterly reckless taking a gun into a situation that he expected to be chaotic and violent.

FWIW going off what I've read about the case the legal verdict looks about right to me. But as far as I'm concerned morally he has the blood of those people on his hands - if he'd just stayed at home rather than going in acting the billy big bollocks with a semi-automatic weapon those people would still be alive and some grafitti would have taken a few days extra to get cleaned.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 01:40:33 am by Sammy5IsAlive »

Offline stevensr123

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #368 on: November 20, 2021, 01:42:43 am »
The whole narrative the kid is a white supremacist  is media and politically driven. There was zero evidence the prosecution could find that made this into a race angle. The defence even handed over his phone over willingly because there was nothing there. From the moment it happened, the media made it a race issue, to the point some people think he killed a black person.

Yet even now, the twitter mob, politicians and the likes of CNN are still stemming the race angle. No wonder that country is so divided.
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Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #369 on: November 20, 2021, 01:44:58 am »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/qZL-kxWarjY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/qZL-kxWarjY</a>

You know what's really interesting about this video? The disparity between the skin colour of the people doing most of the rioting and destroying property and the skin colour of the people that get blamed for it.

Offline WoodenHanger

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #370 on: November 20, 2021, 01:48:03 am »
The whole narrative the kid is a white supremacist  is media and politically driven. There was zero evidence the prosecution could find that made this into a race angle. The defence even handed over his phone over willingly because there was nothing there. From the moment it happened, the media made it a race issue, to the point some people think he killed a black person.

Yet even now, the twitter mob, politicians and the likes of CNN are still stemming the race angle. No wonder that country is so divided.

The race angle is very relevant.

If he was black he'd be dead or in prison. If you can't see that God help you.

imagine a black man goes to a MAGA rally, minding his own business armed with  an AR-15 then shoots 3 people.

Try telling me with a straight face this all plays out the same.

This case is the very fucking definition of white privilage.

Race is absolutely a part of this.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #371 on: November 20, 2021, 02:05:53 am »
Pictured recently at a bar full of known white supremacists and throwing up the white supremacist symbol for the camera. Yeah, he went there with intention of scrubbing some graffiti off a wall using his AR15.

Offline scatman

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #372 on: November 20, 2021, 02:07:08 am »
From everything I've read and seen, the verdict was correct. Some of the replies here are just political tribalism - and then you wonder why countries are being fractured amongst tribalistic lines. The whole gun thing is a different kettle of fish when it comes to the USA but going by the laws they have, the jury made the right decision. Just because you dislike someone and think he's a white supremacist for killing white people (like wtf?) doesn't mean he's guilty by the laws of that land. Otherwise half of you would be in jail somewhere just for being something but nah keep doing trial by social media and skin colour and political affiliation because that'll end nicely won't it?
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Offline DHKopper

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #373 on: November 20, 2021, 02:10:16 am »
17 year old dickhead kid allowed to charge around the streets with a gun.  The allowed part is the biggest problem here.

Offline The_Nomad

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #374 on: November 20, 2021, 02:12:22 am »
It’s a bit late for me to state this l know and thousands of pages have already been written about the subject but it’s a salutary tale of many intersecting interests. It’s staggeringly incomprehensible to me that the winner-takes-all capitalist system in the US has shaped US society such that access to universal healthcare, equal access to clean water and sanitation and the freedom to walk home at 3am without being shot dead by law enforcement or a racial supremacist without repercussions are considered controversial. How can the freedom to be armed to the teeth with guns triumph the freedom not to killed or maimed with those guns? Coming from a country with excellent universal healthcare for all and where such weapons are ONLY in the hands of law enforcement and military, it’s just mind boggling.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #375 on: November 20, 2021, 02:15:14 am »
From everything I've read and seen, the verdict was correct. Some of the replies here are just political tribalism - and then you wonder why countries are being fractured amongst tribalistic lines. The whole gun thing is a different kettle of fish when it comes to the USA but going by the laws they have, the jury made the right decision. Just because you dislike someone and think he's a white supremacist for killing white people (like wtf?) doesn't mean he's guilty by the laws of that land. Otherwise half of you would be in jail somewhere just for being something but nah keep doing trial by social media and skin colour and political affiliation because that'll end nicely won't it?

I think it is fair comment for people to say that "the law's an ass".

Offline scatman

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #376 on: November 20, 2021, 02:16:30 am »
I think it is fair comment for people to say that "the law's an ass".
so are guns but the verdict isn't wrong and I have the feeling if a left wing person did this then they would be defended.
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Offline Mimi

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #377 on: November 20, 2021, 02:24:09 am »
Sickening defence of this fascist scrote. The video of him flashing the white power sign conveniently swept under the rug, is it? It’s not enough that he killed two men, but now to portray him as some sort of good kid. A hero for the (white supremacist) cause. Shame to see grown men idolizing this little punk.
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Offline stevensr123

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #378 on: November 20, 2021, 02:29:21 am »
Sickening defence of this fascist scrote. The video of him flashing the white power sign conveniently swept under the rug, is it? It’s not enough that he killed two men, but now to portray him as some sort of good kid. A hero for the (white supremacist) cause. Shame to see grown men idolizing this little punk.
you do realise the “white power hand sign” is basically an internet meme? Created on  4chan to make the media and the left look silly?
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #379 on: November 20, 2021, 02:39:32 am »
you do realise the “white power hand sign” is basically an internet meme? Created on  4chan to make the media and the left look silly?

To be fair most of the kids messing around with memes on 4chan 'to make the media look silly' aren't carrying AR15s and shooting people.

Offline Buggy Eyes Alfredo

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #380 on: November 20, 2021, 03:07:09 am »

Tucker is interviewing him Monday night.

Offline Conocinico

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #381 on: November 20, 2021, 03:11:07 am »
Sickening defence of this fascist scrote. The video of him flashing the white power sign conveniently swept under the rug, is it? It’s not enough that he killed two men, but now to portray him as some sort of good kid. A hero for the (white supremacist) cause. Shame to see grown men idolizing this little punk.

They were strangers at a bar and he gave the ok sign. Does everybody know what I mean when I say your hand makes the "OK sign"? I would guess so, because it is the widely used and universally understood hand sign that means "OK". If I say instead the dog-whistle-hint-hint-racist hand sign, most wouldn't understand what the fuck I was talking about because only morons associate the OK sign with "white supremacy". Nobody uses it, except ironically, but it has been pushed by groups with an obvious political agenda such as the ADL and so now if you catch somebody doing it and it's politically expedient for you, you can associate a target with "white supremacy".
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #382 on: November 20, 2021, 03:45:09 am »
Tucker is interviewing him Monday night.

He's been filming with him during the trial too but I'm sure despite that, he's still just a graffiti-cleaning sweet kid.

https://twitter.com/jeremymbarr/status/1461873915605798912

Biden's response to this has been terrible IMO. Almost "fine people on both sides" bad.


Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #383 on: November 20, 2021, 04:06:02 am »
He's been filming with him during the trial too but I'm sure despite that, he's still just a graffiti-cleaning sweet kid.

https://twitter.com/jeremymbarr/status/1461873915605798912

Biden's response to this has been terrible IMO. Almost "fine people on both sides" bad.

So much for wanting a quiet, anonymous life as a future nurse.

There'll be a book deal, a movie, and guest slots at the NRA Convention and mid-term rallies in 2022.
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Offline whtwht

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #384 on: November 20, 2021, 04:59:24 am »
America you reap what you sow.  Thankfully and happily wouldn't set foot in  that country again.
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #385 on: November 20, 2021, 05:22:18 am »
You can argue they are different States and the like, but when any country openly allows and condones a clear case of murder then that state is evil.

They are no better than other places where open murder is tolerated and approved by the State.

I didn't visit there once while Trump was there because I believed him to be basically corrupt and evil. I was going to go on holiday there next year with the missus, but I believe this will no longer be the case now.

You just can't defend it, sorry. I know there are a lot of decent people there, but that no longer matters.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #386 on: November 20, 2021, 05:29:55 am »
you do realise the “white power hand sign” is basically an internet meme? Created on  4chan to make the media and the left look silly?
Jesus you might as well be starting your own white power Rittenhouse fan club. Everything you say sounds like a sound bit taken straight out of a Tucker Carlson skit. It's just made to make the left look silly?? It's been shown time and time again at fascist rally's and among white supremacists as a symbol they use to identify each other. That little scrote knew what he was doing and so do you now trying to defend the indefensible. I'm going to ignore you now because I didn't think on RAWK we'd find a white supremacist defender but here we are.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #387 on: November 20, 2021, 05:30:53 am »
I only saw the full video yesterday so here's my honest take as someone who's very much anti-gun in general. I've also done 1.5 years of law studies but admittedly I haven't read Wisconsin law.

Fundamentally, a murder one on Rosenbaum was never ever going to stick in a court room in a country that has the second amendment in the constitution. Premeditated murder, what they charged him with, means that he searched out individuals or groups of people to assassinate them, had planned it and would run towards them. It's just not what the video shows, even though the kid clearly got a screw loose.

You could maybe make an argument for a second-degree manslaughter for using excessive force although it's quite clear that he ran away. It's not inconceivable that one count on that could've won over at least part of the jury.

Due to the camera angle behind the cars concealing what went on it's impossible to say what exactly happened and how close Rosenbaum got to him and his gun though. One of the most basic things in law school is that the evidence needs to be absolute for the most absolute of charges. Either way, he should've never been there with the gun, he shouldn't have been in possession of a gun, but it definitely wasn't premeditated. They overcharged him.

The final two cases, in no way could be considered anything other than self-defence considering he way laying on the ground. I'm sorry for those who got affected by what happened but this is a very terrible situation in the first place. There are no winners. I genuinely do believe Rittenhouse (while it's clownish to show up with a firearm) had zero intent of actually hurting anyone that night and then made some hasty decisions when feeling under threat the first time which set off a chain reaction.

Him walking on the gun charge is ridiculous.

That being said, out of principle I don't believe adolescents should be able to receive life without parole. Maybe I'm too Swedish, I don't know.

I definitely don't endorse him, the NRA, gun nuts or the Republican Party, but what I do endorse is that when it comes to self defence, there should be a benefit of the doubt. It's better that a guilty person goes free than that someone innocent is thrown in jail, in particular when we're talking US sentencing. The jury made their call, it was 12-0 in the end from a jury in a suburban swing county, so I think it's better if people respect that.

Guns are bad. Don't do guns. That's all. RIP to the deceased and I hope Grosskreutz is able to live a decent life even with his arm injury. I hope that his skin colour didn't influence the verdict, I don't know. I hope a black guy would've been offered the same benefit of the doubt on murder one, but sadly I doubt it  :-[ The US has a very racist/biased legal system depending on definition.

So if he murders three or four people a year then you're cool with that?

How many murders are 'too many'

In any country that isn't a shithole, that answer is one.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #388 on: November 20, 2021, 05:32:52 am »
You know what's really interesting about this video? The disparity between the skin colour of the people doing most of the rioting and destroying property and the skin colour of the people that get blamed for it.

If you see the world through a racial lens then I could see why that would be the most interesting thing. Personally there were many things I found interesting about it and that didn't cross my mind.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 07:10:47 am by Conocinico »
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #389 on: November 20, 2021, 05:35:45 am »
1. The gun was illegally obtained by him as a minor but it was in Kenosha all the time held by his sisters' boyfriend who legally posessed the firearm. Rittenhouse frequently travelled 20 miles across the state line, but he was not trafficking the weapon.
2. As far as I know, the AR-15 is a semi-automatic weapon?
3. What proof do you have that Rittenhouse was/is a neo-nazi? I know he was bloody stupid to show up there but it's the US, they have too many guns and it leads to bad chain reactions.
4. My belief on his intent doesn't matter, the question is, was it self-defence under the jurisdiction the defendant was trialled in relation to standards required to secure a conviction on murder one. Chauvin was rightfully convicted of a lower-tier murder charge, even his case didn't rise to the premeditation necessary to even seek a first-degree conviction. The Minnesota Department of Justice knew what they were doing, unlike these prosecutors.
5. Had the prosecution sought a winnable case: manslaughter 2 or 3 on Rosenbaum, he could've easily had a felony conviction right now.

He murdered two people and injured another. With a semi-automatic firearm in a place he shouldn't have been

I'm hoping you're drunk.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 05:42:35 am by Andy @ Allerton »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #390 on: November 20, 2021, 05:36:48 am »
there would have been an easy way for him not to have had to make that decision - not go there in the first sodding place.

This is what gets me about all this, not that he got off, that was going to happen because of the evidence, it’s the fact so many are absolutely fine with this nasty little scrotebag going to a town he didn’t need to be in on a night that he didn't need to be there, with a loaded gun. 

His parent(s) need taking to task, what a horrendous way to bring up a child.

See, to most of us here, that's logical. Don't go to a riot-like situation, especially with a loaded gun!

But unless there was a curfew in place, his lawyers can just argue he has a right to be where he chooses as long as it's a public place.

And if it's legal to publically carry a firearm in Wisconsin, he can walk around with a gun as well. It's those laws that definitely need to change. But sadly I don't see that happening

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #391 on: November 20, 2021, 05:45:24 am »
That's what the prosecution alleged. That isn't what happened. The jury saw it my way too.

Well most people think your country is an anarchic shithole.

I can see there being a full-on civil war there and you have absolutely no one to blame but yourselves.
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #392 on: November 20, 2021, 05:49:50 am »
yep, and was shot whilst pointing the gun at his head.

A gun shot was fired from another rioter seconds before all this happened as well.

If you place yourself there, you hear a gun shot, someone has just hit you in the head with a weapon, someone is coming towards you with a wooden pole, another tried to kick your head in, another is pointing a gun at your head…it was always going to end up with death.


"A gun shot was fired from another rioter seconds before all this happened as well"

Looks like you think 'rioters' are worse than murderers to be honest.

Why were they 'rioting' mate?
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #393 on: November 20, 2021, 05:53:52 am »
We're all on the same team here, spiritually and philosophically.  We're talking about points of law in the U.S.

Not being funny, but if someone came to Liverpool and spouted all this right-wing nazi shit and saying it's Ok to murder people then you're likely to be not having a great day.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 06:01:08 am by Andy @ Allerton »
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #394 on: November 20, 2021, 05:57:29 am »
I think the problem is that we view this affair through a British lens with strict gun control and find it difficult to understand that you can not only legally own an assault rifle but walk through the streets with one over your shoulder.

The problem is that I have with it is that you are talking about a country where it's legal to own a gun, point it at people and then murder people with it and have no repercussions whatsoever.

Reading some of the posts from the Americans (and others) about this, this is why America is a banana republic and utterly fucked. They can justify any and all of it.

Shit hole of a country and it's only going to get worse. Imagine if you're non-white there now - the scumbags with guns will be all out to buy more and 'go a hunting', knowing that the courts will let them get away Scot-free if the person they murder isn't white - or if they are 'protesting' as we can see here.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 06:06:44 am by Andy @ Allerton »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #395 on: November 20, 2021, 05:57:58 am »

You're talking fucking shite mate. You haven't got a clue.
This sentence is not provable

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #396 on: November 20, 2021, 06:01:25 am »
Not being funny, but if someone came to Liverpool and spouted all this right-wing nazi shit and saying it's Ok to murder black people then you're likely to be not having a great day.
You think he shot black people?  You’re a disgrace, having the nerve to post this when you don’t even know the most basic fact about this case.

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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #397 on: November 20, 2021, 06:05:41 am »
You think he shot black people?  You’re a disgrace, having the nerve to post this when you don’t even know the most basic fact about this case.


I edited the post.

Same point stands. It's not ok to murder protesters.
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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #398 on: November 20, 2021, 06:12:41 am »
It's quite concerning the murder rates in the States as well.

39,729 gun deaths in 2021 alone. (Per 100,000 = 12.21)


In a country of what 333,716,000 people..



Contrast that to the UK (Population 68,384,000) - Gun deaths per 100,000: 0.20


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Re: The state Of The States. How Has America Got To Now?
« Reply #399 on: November 20, 2021, 06:15:49 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2021/nov/19/kyle-rittenhouse-verdict-acquitted-protest

Kyle Rittenhouse has walked free. Now it’s open season on protesters

Kyle Rittenhouse – the armed white teenager whose mother drove him from Illinois to Wisconsin to allegedly “protect” local businesses from anti-racism protesters in Kenosha, whereupon he shot and killed two people and injured another – has been acquitted of all charges. I don’t think anyone who has followed the trial even casually will be surprised by this verdict. After the various antics by the elected judge, which seemed to indicate where his sympathies lay, and the fact that the prosecution asked the jurors to consider charges lesser than murder, the writing was on the wall.

I do not want to discuss the legal particulars of the verdict. It is clear that the prosecution made many mistakes and got little to no leeway from the judge, unlike the defense team. Moreover, we know that “self-defense” – often better known as vigilantism – is legally protected and highly racialized in this country. Think of the acquittal of George Zimmerman of the killing of Trayvon Martin in 2013.

In essence, the Rittenhouse ruling has created a kind of “stand your ground” law for the whole country. White people now have the apparent right to travel around the country, heavily armed, and use violence to protect the country from whatever and whoever they believe to be threatening to it. Given the feverish paranoia and racism that has captured a sizeable minority of white people in the US these days, this is a recipe for disaster.

In the coming hours and days, many media outlets will eagerly await riots or other potentially violent reactions from the other side – from the anti-racists and progressives of all colors and races who are disturbed by this verdict – and use the existence of those riots, if they occur, to push a misguided “both sides” frame. If there is protest or rioting, don’t expect the police to be as courteous and supportive as they were towards Rittenhouse and his far-right buddies.

The most worrying effect of this verdict may be this: giving rightwing vigilantes a legal precedent to take up arms against anyone they consider a threat – which pretty much runs from anti-fascists to so-called Rinos (Republicans in Name Only) and includes almost all people of color – means it is now open hunting season on progressive protesters.

Don’t get me wrong; this ruling alone did not start this kind of lopsided law and order. It is just the latest in a centuries-old American tradition of protecting white terror and vigilantism. Civil rights demonstrations in the 1960s, particularly but not exclusively in the south, were not just denied police protection; the demonstrators were attacked and abused by the police. That was also the case at many Black Lives Matter demonstrations last year.

A Boston Globe investigation found that “between [George] Floyd’s death on 25 May 2020 and 30 September 2021, vehicles drove into protests at least 139 times”, injuring at least 100 people. In fewer than half of the cases the driver was charged, and only four drivers have been convicted of a felony. Moreover, in response to these attacks, Republican legislators have proposed laws to protect the drivers from legal action in case they hit a protester. Florida, Iowa, and Oklahoma have already passed such laws.

It takes courage to publicly protest in any situation, particularly when protesting state powers. Now protesters in the US will have to fear not only police brutality but an emboldened and violent far right, fired up by the Republican party and the broader rightwing media and protected by the local legal system.

All of this comes at a crucial point in US democracy. From Georgia to Wisconsin, the Republican party is attacking the electoral system, while their supporters are terrorizing poll workers and those signing up to be poll workers in the next elections. In the event that Democrats win important elections in conservative states in 2022 – think Stacey Abrams in Georgia or Beto O’Rourke in Texas – there is a big chance that these results will be contested and judged by highly partisan forces protected by state politicians.

Similarly, should President Biden or another Democrat win the 2024 presidential election, the result will again be challenged in conservative states, but this time independent poll workers could be absent or outnumbered and the few Republicans who withstood Donald Trump’s pressure in 2020 will have been replaced or have fallen in line.

At that point, Democrats, and indeed all democratic-minded citizens, will have to go into the streets to protest. They will confront an alliance of heavily armed civilians and police and national guard, who can attack protesters with effective immunity. Remember: Kyle Rittenhouse has just been acquitted after killing two people and injuring a third at a protest.

In my home country, the Netherlands, we have a saying that is used regularly in political discussions: “Democracy is not for scared people.” Most of the time when it is used, we mean that democracy is not for people who are afraid of change or of critique. In the US, in the wake of today’s verdict, this saying has become both more real and more sinister.

    Cas Mudde is Stanley Wade Shelton UGAF professor of international affairs at the University of Georgia, the author of The Far Right Today (2019), and host of the podcast Radikaal. He is a Guardian US columnist
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.