Author Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire  (Read 139166 times)

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #280 on: June 15, 2017, 06:02:24 pm »
Not at all. I think we were at cross purposes. I know what you're talking about now. I still think it's too early to say that those panels would have definitely prevented everything that happened (there should still be fire stops at each floor) but they would have maintained integrity and not have contributed to the heat and smoke.


Often these catastrophes turn out to be a combination of smaller issues.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the case here.
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Offline It's Jimmy Corkhill

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #281 on: June 15, 2017, 06:39:28 pm »
Often these catastrophes turn out to be a combination of smaller issues.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the case here.

Of course. A lot of people and bodies have blame to shoulder.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #282 on: June 15, 2017, 06:48:23 pm »
Kind of feel for the workmen who actually did the job.  Any number of them would have been ordinary people just going about their daily business and doing the work they'd been given.  Probably done the same job a hundred times and they wouldn't have had a say over what materials they were given.  Wouldn't have been nice for them to watch this unfold; I'm sure many would have felt some measure of responsibility.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #283 on: June 15, 2017, 07:00:42 pm »
'Mr Khan how many kids died, what are you doing about it?'

From a 7 year old boy.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #284 on: June 15, 2017, 07:09:44 pm »
Of course. A lot of people and bodies have blame to shoulder.
It maybe that there is one catastrophic failure.  But I suspect it will be a combination of minor errors.

The first priority for the investigation must be to ensure that this can't happen again.
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Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #285 on: June 15, 2017, 07:15:50 pm »
I'm watching the news and seeing hundreds of wonderfull local people helping as best they can, demonstraiting the very best in British community spirit...but hold on...most look ..foreign! or  have brown skin , or black or look asian..there's Sikhs, and ..deep breath..Muslims....surley this cant be right,? ..Non white people demonstraiting all the values British people hold unique to themsleves!!??....or maybe they are....dare I say it, they are ...' British'.. we must consult with the Dail Mail for advice on this...we didnt vote Brexit for this, surely!!!?...humpph!

The terrorist attacks brought out the best in people, so has this horrific disaster, but this time the only ones to blame will not be some far off foreign regime but us , the people of Britain and how we are willing to commit to a higher standard of living and public life ...and the cost of it!....that is a challenge we must face up to cos its coming out of your pocket.

Admiration is unbounded to those people who live in their community for doing all they can, Wonderful!!

Now we can look forward to the multi-millionare overseas owners who make London 'Capitol of the World'  to use their wealth and open up their empty properties in Kensington to  house the familes.......

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #286 on: June 15, 2017, 07:23:51 pm »
Kind of feel for the workmen who actually did the job.  Any number of them would have been ordinary people just going about their daily business and doing the work they'd been given.  Probably done the same job a hundred times and they wouldn't have had a say over what materials they were given.  Wouldn't have been nice for them to watch this unfold; I'm sure many would have felt some measure of responsibility.

Yeah it has nothing to do with those boys.They turned up with their tools and did the job,the end.
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Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #287 on: June 15, 2017, 07:27:44 pm »
Kind of feel for the workmen who actually did the job.  Any number of them would have been ordinary people just going about their daily business and doing the work they'd been given.  Probably done the same job a hundred times and they wouldn't have had a say over what materials they were given.  Wouldn't have been nice for them to watch this unfold; I'm sure many would have felt some measure of responsibility.

Therel be hundreds of people who worked  on that refurb now feeling like shit wondering 'did I do the right thing..did I contribute '...But those who made the decisions ( and no doubt took finacial benfit) or those who relaxed policies and regulations will be thinking " who do we blame cos it aint my fault"

Offline Trada

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #288 on: June 15, 2017, 07:33:01 pm »
Lily Allen on C4 news saying she has been told by police and firemen the death toll will be at least 150.

And if I use people's deaths to score political points one more time I will be having an extended holiday from RAWK.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 07:36:02 pm by Rhi »
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Offline Priest078

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #289 on: June 15, 2017, 07:34:42 pm »
Lily Allen on C4 news saying she has been told by police and firemen the death toll will be at least 150.

And says the Tory PR machine and the MSM are playing down the death toll.

I'd have thought double that.

Offline Trada

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #290 on: June 15, 2017, 07:39:47 pm »
Lily Allen on C4 news saying she has been told by police and firemen the death toll will be at least 150.

And if I use people's deaths to score political points one more time I will be having an extended holiday from RAWK.

Hang on what have I done wrong just saying what Lily Allen said in a interview on C4 news about the disaster it wasn't my views.
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Offline Rhi

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #291 on: June 15, 2017, 07:41:15 pm »
It was the second part of that post that I removed, Trada, as you well know.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #292 on: June 15, 2017, 07:41:45 pm »
And says the Tory PR machine and the MSM are playing down the death toll.
Any chance you can at least try to control yourself and leave this bollocks out of this thread till we even know how many people died and who they were?

We have a Labour Mayor of London and a Labour have more representatives in the London Assembly than anyone else. Nothing is getting swept under the rug.

Offline redmark

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #293 on: June 15, 2017, 07:42:52 pm »
Lily Allen on C4 news saying she has been told by police and firemen the death toll will be at least 150.

And if I use people's deaths to score political points one more time I will be having an extended holiday from RAWK.

She said (just rewound to check) "much closer to...", rather than "at least" (and that figures in that range were off-the-record from police/fire crews).

The chilling part, when Jon Snow (correctly) pointed out that the authorities and media release official confirmed figures, was the point she made that that's after identification and the families have been informed - but that entire families have died and in many cases there will be none to inform.
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Offline Trada

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #294 on: June 15, 2017, 07:43:01 pm »
It was the second part of that post that I removed, Trada, as you well know.

But thats what she said in the Interview. it was a quote from her.

And said thats how the locals were feeling about what was going on at the mo.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 07:44:50 pm by Trada »
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Offline Priest078

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #295 on: June 15, 2017, 07:44:01 pm »
Radio 4 earlier said that one of the fire chiefs had said he "hoped it wouldn't be into triple figures", which I think gives an indication that it's going to be in the hundreds. Absolutely horrific.

I have never seen anything like it. No chance a building should go up like that without people being able to get out. I just can't see how many got out with such short notice in the middle of the night, anyone who got out was very very lucky. RIP.

Offline Fiasco

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #296 on: June 15, 2017, 07:53:11 pm »
The two papers that you could probably guess are currently running an appalling, chilling and repulsive story regarding the cause of the fire. I wont give it any more airtime but just avoid it if you can; people are sharing it on social media to highlight just how disgusting it is but I'd advise to not view it if you don't want to put a fist through a wall.

Offline Rhi

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #297 on: June 15, 2017, 07:53:14 pm »
But thats what she said in the Interview. it was a quote from her.

And said thats how the locals were feeling about what was going on at the mo.

Just because Lilly fucking Allen is being a c*nt, and using deaths of potentially hundreds of people to score points, doesn't mean it's right or OK. I also don't really know why Lilly Allen's opinion is relevant in this case other than as an excuse to try to score points. Just fucking stop.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #298 on: June 15, 2017, 08:05:38 pm »
But thats what she said in the Interview. it was a quote from her.

And said thats how the locals were feeling about what was going on at the mo.

And you have to repeat it? Fucks sake Dave. It's stupid and irresponsible. It's going to start conspiracy theories and cause heartbreak for families.

It's as bad as the c*nts who say Sandy Hook was faked.
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Offline DHKopper

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #299 on: June 15, 2017, 08:19:34 pm »
Tragic this.  RIP to the poor souls who didn't make it out.

Offline 12C

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #300 on: June 15, 2017, 08:19:49 pm »
People in Grenfell Tower wanted to take on the landlords in court about the risk of fire. but they couldn't afford it and they couldn't legal aid because of cuts and changes to legal aid rules.
Neil Wilby tweeted a pic of the legal letter sent to the residents telling them basically to shut up about it or they would sue.
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Offline TravisBickle

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #301 on: June 15, 2017, 08:25:41 pm »
I've been mad busy the last couple of days and missed all this bar a couple of headlines. Only just seen it now. Fucking hell, I don't have the words. Just horrific.

 RIP. Utter disaster.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #302 on: June 15, 2017, 08:33:32 pm »
My post from yesterday:


Various media now reporting that it was the cheaper 'plastic' core cladding used. Whether that's from leaks from people involved in the project or experts getting hold of bits of debris from around the base of the tower (which they're certainly doing, because they're taking a handful and crumbling it for the cameras), they're not saying. That seems pretty clear from the videos, the obvious observation that most of it has clearly burnt away and the comparisons to the Australian incident.

I get that there has to be an inquiry, and it has to consider every aspect of regulations and contributory factors. But people are living in tower blocks with the same cladding - a couple of hundred yards away, or elsewhere in London and across the country. If I lived in one, I'd want it ripping off like now. Or to be not living there.

As for point scoring... clearly this is 'political'. Not party political, but real policies-affect-people's-lives political. It's impossible to avoid the history of complaints made by local tenants organisations and local political representatives being ignored; it's equally impossible to ignore the entirely different safety and standards applied to new luxury accommodations in the city; and relaxations of building regulations, highlighted for years by fire brigades, architects and campaigners. And clearly, the lack of coordinated response to the disaster by the local council. It's impossible to ignore Boris's "get stuffed" comment while London Mayor, or the four years without even consulting on putting together a plan to think about reviewing regulations on enforcing sprinkler systems following the 2013 coroner's inquest.

This is a Hillsborough-scale event, with - it appears, and certainly needing inquiry - Hillsborough-levels of criminal negligence; but played out in the full glare of social media, mobile phone footage and 24 hour rolling news. A public inquiry concluding "oh yeah, that cladding is shit" in a few years isn't going to cut it.

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Offline redmark

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #303 on: June 15, 2017, 08:38:59 pm »
Reading and listening to a few experts on various channels, there seems to be a real conflict between our modern focus on insulation for energy conservation, with fire risk. Certainly at a certain price point, anyway.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #304 on: June 15, 2017, 09:00:19 pm »
Reading and listening to a few experts on various channels, there seems to be a real conflict between our modern focus on insulation for energy conservation, with fire risk. Certainly at a certain price point, anyway.


Can see this discussion being something for another thread, but you hit it with 'price point'. Everything is about money, it should be about people, their safety and their comfort, now and in the future. You can just as well insulate with real fire retardant materials, but it might not be the cheapest option. The conflict only exists if you somehow put money first.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #305 on: June 15, 2017, 09:10:18 pm »
such a terrible tragedy :(

sad to see politicians of all parties are using it as a point scoring contest.  I hope these people will be relocated in safer furnished houses soon at no financial cost.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #306 on: June 15, 2017, 09:15:05 pm »
The two papers that you could probably guess are currently running an appalling, chilling and repulsive story regarding the cause of the fire. I wont give it any more airtime but just avoid it if you can; people are sharing it on social media to highlight just how disgusting it is but I'd advise to not view it if you don't want to put a fist through a wall.

I really couldn't give a shit what they say.  They're irrelevant.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #307 on: June 15, 2017, 09:15:52 pm »
such a terrible tragedy :(

sad to see politicians of all parties are using it as a point scoring contest.  I hope these people will be relocated in safer furnished houses soon at no financial cost.

There are plenty of empty houses in Kensington. 
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #308 on: June 15, 2017, 09:17:01 pm »
I really couldn't give a shit what they say.  They're irrelevant.

I know mate. I'm just saying. If you happen to come across a front page or something be aware.

Offline redmark

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #309 on: June 15, 2017, 09:19:41 pm »
such a terrible tragedy :(

sad to see politicians of all parties are using it as a point scoring contest.  I hope these people will be relocated in safer furnished houses soon at no financial cost.

It's not political point-scoring: this is politics. Housing policy is politics, health and safety is politics, regulations are politics, disaster response is politics.

Our rights and protections didn't arise paternalistically because they were nice things to do to protect poor people. They were responses to disasters, occasional large, controversial events - or long, slow, drip-fed consequences. Workplace regulations are the result of people dying in factories and mines and mills. Building regulations are the result of people dying in house fires, or building collapses.

As one MP said at today's brief statement/questions session: this is not some natural disaster, a freak accident out of nowhere with no warning or cause. This is the result of politics.


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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #310 on: June 15, 2017, 09:20:02 pm »
I really couldn't give a shit what they say.  They're irrelevant.

 I don't want to derail this thread but we all know what the papers can do in the wake of a major tragedy. Obviously none of us will swallow their shite but some people out there will. It's important to not let what they spew go unchallenged.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #311 on: June 15, 2017, 09:20:13 pm »
The truth is likely to be complicated, with little pieces of blame all calamitously conspiring with tragic results.

If we leave aside the possibility that the refurbishment was criminally negligent - fraudulently passing building inspections - where there is clear blame, then the likely scenarios are that the contractor used the cheapest materials that passed building regs - it would have been a competitive tender. So does the blame lie with the people who decided which bid to accept, the people making the bid. Potentially the fitting of the panels may not have been as the manufacturer specified, whether through cost cutting, incompetence, time pressure or any other reason. The particular configuration of the building with the cladding may have caused unexpected effects circumventing the fire control methods. Etc, etc , etc. Real life is not a movie plot. You don't tend to get neat answers.

The chemistry and physics of a fire are horribly complex. It is likely to take a very long to model it and work out exactly what went on. It is exceptionally unlikely to end in a simple verdict where the finger is pointed in one direction. A public enquiry is the right course of action. Second guessing the outcome of that is probably not productive.

The exception to that would be that further tests need to be done on flammable core cladding on high rises. It needs to be ascertained if other buildings are at risk, and if necessary remove the cladding if there is any chance of a similar effect. We can put up with some ugly concrete until the full results are available (and to be honest, the cladding is not particularly aesthetic any way).   


   

Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #312 on: June 15, 2017, 09:21:21 pm »
I can almost understand the "stay put" instruction to residents if the fire was contained to one flat - but surely to fuck once the LFB arrived on scene they'd have swiftly knocked that on the head having seen how the fire was spreading? How would they communicate that to everyone up there though- is there a linked telecoms thing in these flats? Me mate used to live in one but I can't remember?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #313 on: June 15, 2017, 09:30:21 pm »
A hospital has apparently made a complaint that two Sun journalists posed as victims in order to gain access to patients. Source: Peter Jukes
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #314 on: June 15, 2017, 09:34:12 pm »
A hospital has apparently made a complaint that two Sun journalists posed as victims in order to gain access to patients. Source: Peter Jukes

Finally this might finish them.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #315 on: June 15, 2017, 09:35:03 pm »
A hospital has apparently made a complaint that two Sun journalists posed as victims in order to gain access to patients. Source: Peter Jukes

Not even surprised anymore.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #317 on: June 15, 2017, 10:10:24 pm »
A hospital has apparently made a complaint that two Sun journalists posed as victims in order to gain access to patients. Source: Peter Jukes
I mean, what do you say to that?  It's beyond being sub-human.  Beyond the gutter.  These poor people have gone through what is most likely the biggest trauma of their lives and they do shit like that.  Fucking hell.

There was a tit gurning behind Victoria Derbyshire (who I thought had the balance of yesterday's news very well done, and when her fellow reporter showed a charred piece of maths homework, fucking hell..) who earned one of the biggest proportions of my ire yesterday.  Well that's well and truly fucking small-time now.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #318 on: June 15, 2017, 10:37:20 pm »
White man's fridge goes on fire, Daily Mail blames fridge manufacturer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4446798/Faulty-Beko-fridge-freezer-sparked-fire-killed-man.html

Ethiopian's fridge goes on fire, Daily Mail blames him for a disaster for having the temerity to own a fridge (which was probably his slum landlord's fridge in any case).
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #319 on: June 15, 2017, 10:37:44 pm »
Make no mistake about it. These are calculated and deliberate attempts to deflect attention from the fact that establishment council and government figures (at cabinet level) have a direct role in this disaster, by ignoring repeated warnings and voting down legislation that could have prevented it. Cost was put ahead of safety, and it was a calculated and carefully considered decision. Stare it in the face with the contempt it deserves, and do not let them get away with ANY of it. Use social media to drown out the misinformation of the hate rags - this is the one weapon that we have now that we didn't have 28 years ago, and they're not ready for us this time.
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In a free state there should be freedom of speech and thought.
 Tiberius Caesar Augustus,
Roman Emperor & General (42 BC - 37 AD)