Author Topic: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers  (Read 17297 times)

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2011, 10:47:24 am »
While I agree that a quality player would help our chances in front of goal I don't think that is a panacea.  I'd say the greatest thing about our team is that we are creating chances.  It looks as if we are going to score but one way or another, and it isn't just poor finishing, we are not.  The system and the style of play is what is helping us create chances not necessarily the players.

We need to keep playing with the belief that we start with throughout the game.  Sounds easy but it's difficult and I guess most of these players are now playing under a level of expectancy previously foreign to them.  The ones that want it will stand out.  The ones that don't will be weeded out.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,696
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2011, 11:00:35 am »
While I agree that a quality player would help our chances in front of goal I don't think that is a panacea.  I'd say the greatest thing about our team is that we are creating chances.  It looks as if we are going to score but one way or another, and it isn't just poor finishing, we are not.  The system and the style of play is what is helping us create chances not necessarily the players.

We need to keep playing with the belief that we start with throughout the game.  Sounds easy but it's difficult and I guess most of these players are now playing under a level of expectancy previously foreign to them.  The ones that want it will stand out.  The ones that don't will be weeded out.

Like what Chopper said ages ago, the biggest thing we appear to be missing is the sheer single minded belief, arrogance, confidence etc. to just go out there and win games. You don't always need the best players to do that and if we need an example then Man Utd are the best to use.

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2011, 11:12:54 am »
Like what Chopper said ages ago, the biggest thing we appear to be missing is the sheer single minded belief, arrogance, confidence etc. to just go out there and win games. You don't always need the best players to do that and if we need an example then Man Utd are the best to use.
Agree.  That belief is not something which can be bought or just as easily manifested.  It is harvested over time and needs the right conditions in which to blossom.  We can only hope now that our owners will give us that time with investment and that Dalglish along with senior members of the coaching staff and the playing squad are able to instil that type of mentality.

United have created a system which is supported by the players, not the other way around.  They also have a culture which rewards on merit and not reputation.  It's not just them there are other examples throughout world football.  In that way they can even replace world class players with individuals of less talent and still maintain success because the system and culture doesn't walk out of the door with the talent.

Offline Joe_Singh

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,135
  • My idea is always to win trophies, not just games
    • Joe Singh
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2011, 11:14:00 am »
The guy was 17....

and?

The point is that Downing did his job in the match in question and doesn't deserve the criticism he is getting for this game in particular. Over the course of the season maybe he hasn't played to his potential, but in this game he played well regardless of who he was up against.
What I love about this, and several other of Kenny's press conferences, is that he manages to say something to the effect of  'Shut the fuck up, you fucking helmets and don't fuck with me or my football club or I'll make you eat your own balls', without actually using th

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2011, 12:33:30 pm »
I don't understand why Downing is considered to have a good game. His crossing and decision making were poor all game. What's the point in beating the man if your balls never reach a Red? Okay, fine, Carroll had a stinker but how many times did he run down the flank and either ping it all the way across for Maxi to try to keep it in or clip it in with only Carroll surrounded by Blackburn defenders? He did the same two things all game. He either ran past the full back, cut back on his left and crossed it deep or continued to the by line and clipped it in with his right into the 6 yard box. So what did Blackburn do? Rather than double up on him to prevent the crossing, they just let him and either hounded out Carroll (which was the easiest game Samba will have all season) or regroup when he cut back.
So many times he either tried to make the same run as Johnson - who I thought was more dangerous going forward - or he stopped and didn't give him any support. It was only in the second half when Stevie came on that he seemed to realise he needed to have more movement.

I'm so critical of him because he started the season well and because he's supposed to be a senior player. Yet he's drifting in and out of games when he's supposed to be Mr Consistency. I can accept crap performances as long as the effort is there but honestly I don't see it with him. He doesn't look like he's trying to make things happen, he's like the polar opposite of Luis Garcia.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline The G in Gerrard

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 45,303
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2011, 12:40:04 pm »
and?

The point is that Downing did his job in the match in question and doesn't deserve the criticism he is getting for this game in particular. Over the course of the season maybe he hasn't played to his potential, but in this game he played well regardless of who he was up against.

Did he though? He's completely predictable on the right side imo. You know 9 times out of ten he will try and get ball onto his left as his right foot is for standing. He doesn't even have a strike on goal when he does cut in on the left and the chance in second half he had, he should have scored. I just recall many in the summer saying this kind of player would help us put sides like norwich, etc to the sword at Anfield. It hasn't and at the minute for whatever reason it doesn't look like happening.

Offline Rohit

  • nol
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,867
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2011, 12:58:59 pm »
I don't understand why Downing is considered to have a good game. His crossing and decision making were poor all game. What's the point in beating the man if your balls never reach a Red? Okay, fine, Carroll had a stinker but how many times did he run down the flank and either ping it all the way across for Maxi to try to keep it in or clip it in with only Carroll surrounded by Blackburn defenders? He did the same two things all game. He either ran past the full back, cut back on his left and crossed it deep or continued to the by line and clipped it in with his right into the 6 yard box. So what did Blackburn do? Rather than double up on him to prevent the crossing, they just let him and either hounded out Carroll (which was the easiest game Samba will have all season) or regroup when he cut back.
So many times he either tried to make the same run as Johnson - who I thought was more dangerous going forward - or he stopped and didn't give him any support. It was only in the second half when Stevie came on that he seemed to realise he needed to have more movement.

I'm so critical of him because he started the season well and because he's supposed to be a senior player. Yet he's drifting in and out of games when he's supposed to be Mr Consistency. I can accept crap performances as long as the effort is there but honestly I don't see it with him. He doesn't look like he's trying to make things happen, he's like the polar opposite of Luis Garcia.

This for me is spot on mate. While he was far more direct than his recent performances where you couldn't tell if he was on the pitch, his delivery was awful. The player that was compared to downing in the summer valencia, is what you'd want in a winger deliverly of great cross after great cross, eliminating the defenders all together but downing can't do that. For me he doesn't know how to utilise the overlap well enough and there was a few times he should passed to henderson who made a run beyound but downing ignored and we just got a corner or less. He needs to step up his game and have some sort of belief infront of goal as gerrard set him through after a great move with luis and downing had one of the tamest shots you'll ever see straight at the keeper.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2011, 01:56:12 pm »
Did he though? He's completely predictable on the right side imo. You know 9 times out of ten he will try and get ball onto his left as his right foot is for standing. He doesn't even have a strike on goal when he does cut in on the left and the chance in second half he had, he should have scored. I just recall many in the summer saying this kind of player would help us put sides like norwich, etc to the sword at Anfield. It hasn't and at the minute for whatever reason it doesn't look like happening.

That's certainly not what I've noticed. I've been quite surprised at the number of times he's gone outside his man on the right and generally been impressed with his right foot. He also done very well on his corners (taking over from Adam).

Cut inside at half way line and delivered a nice "slide rule" pass to win a penalty
The short corner ricocheted to Skrtel (Maxi goal)
Fizzed shot after put through to Gerrard
Suarez free header from corner
Think a couple more corners were good
He also won a few free kicks in dangerous ares
in my eyes he did his part
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Mighty_Red

  • Rojo Poderoso!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,926
  • All hail the King...
    • Join the fight - SOS
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2011, 02:16:05 pm »
To me, Downing is not doing enough. He looked bright the the start of the season and the main thing missing was goals and assists in numbers. Instead of developing, he seems to have regressed.

Often his crossing was weak or overhit tho usually he just left the final ball to Johnson. He should be able to burst into the area and/or the byeline and get in a cross or pass that can be attacked. If Carroll is marked out the game, take it on yourself. He should've done better with the heading chance he got.

That said, we are making even average crosses look even poorer as there simply isn't enough players in the box to attack the ball

Even though Maxi does not contribute in terms of crosses, his intricate passing with the likes of Suarez helps open up defences, and more often than not he is putting away chances when they come.

Carroll simply needs to make himself more of a threat - he still looks laboured both with and without the ball. I don't expect pace from him, but his reaction timess are well down as well. The boy can shoot from distance (Remember against Man City), why don't we create the opportunity for him to do so, is he speaking to his teammates asking for the ball in specific areas?

In terms of our central midfield, I haven't been too concerned - maybe we will need a stronger one for Newcastle or City but they had more than enough to hangle Wigan & Blackburn. Adam has had a couple of stinkers, I can only remember one cross/pass of note otherwise everything has been wasted. He'll need to get back to where he was a few weeks ago else he will lose his place to Stevie very soon.
Some clubs were always destined for greatness...

Offline penga

  • What you get if you cross Pingu with Jenga.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,662
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2011, 02:22:59 pm »
The guy was 17....
Remember Jack Robinson vs Walcott?

Didn't even give Walcott a sniff.

Offline Aristotle

  • is a bugger for the bottle. Apache tool wielder extraordinaire - especially in wardrobes. The 'Oral B' Specialist.....brushes his cavities vigorously outdoors.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,438
  • Happiness depends upon ourselves
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2011, 10:28:39 pm »
Remember Jack Robinson vs Walcott?

Didn't even give Walcott a sniff.

How is that helping anything. Walcott is like Lennon. He has speed and that's it. You show him onto his weaker foot and catch up to him when he runs and you're set for life. The point is, given the money we paid for him and all of his experience Downing should've run circles around the guy. He didn't and the few times he got past him he sent a laserbeamed cross to Samba's head or to Maxi on the other wing.

He has over 300 professional games as a footballer, over 30 caps (granted it's only England) and should be in the prime of his career. I think it's quite reasonable and highly worrying that Downing can't have a good game when going against a teenager and a defense that's leaked more goals than any other in the league.
My twitter
If Harry can get Spurs to the CL 1/4 final then he could get England to the World Cup final.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2011, 11:07:13 pm »
How is that helping anything. Walcott is like Lennon. He has speed and that's it. You show him onto his weaker foot and catch up to him when he runs and you're set for life. The point is, given the money we paid for him and all of his experience Downing should've run circles around the guy. He didn't and the few times he got past him he sent a laserbeamed cross to Samba's head or to Maxi on the other wing.

He has over 300 professional games as a footballer, over 30 caps (granted it's only England) and should be in the prime of his career. I think it's quite reasonable and highly worrying that Downing can't have a good game when going against a teenager and a defense that's leaked more goals than any other in the league.

Agree with the first bit but just can fathom how you can say he had a bad game. I would have put him MOTM
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline GrkStav

  • Has a statuette of Lucas on the bonnet of his car which he polishes lovingly with Lucas Brasso. Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,981
  • Not very good at 'banter'.
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2011, 11:18:57 pm »
I am among those who think Downing is not doing too badly. The things about him that frustrate me are 1. his moaning at fellow players (he's done it to Enrique and to Suarez, even) 2. his less than professional-standard defending.

As for our crossing, we should go back to a Rafa-style approach, i.e. the crossers (be they wide midifelders or full-backs, etc) should have 3-4 designated spots in the area to which they aim and it's up to the potential receivers to position themselves accordingly. With the exception of Gerrard, I don't think any of our other usual crossers has the quality to cross to a particular spot 'on the spot', so to speak.  In short, a bit less "creativity" and "freedom" and a bit more organization and drilling.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline the 92A

  • Alberto Incontidor. Peneus. Phantom Thread Locker. Mr Bus. But there'll be another one along soon enough. Almost as bad as Jim...
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,029
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2011, 11:19:08 pm »
Thought this was the well considered, none knee jerking thread? Seem to have stumbled into the we're all doomed, isn't it terrible thread?

We've missed more chances than any other team - we've also created more - for this to be explained as we aren't good enough is missing the bleedin point isn't it? Someone's cup is well and truly half empty eh?

The keeper pulling off one blinding save in a match isn't a result of our players being crap its a result of the keeper pulling off a blinding save.  The 'we need better finishing' argument is fine and even yesterday there were at least two occasions when a better finish would have been a goal ok but offside goals, keeper mistakes, mishit shots, deflections, the ball just to one side of the keeper, through their legs,   etc happen all the time - just not to us currently.

Belief is a funny old thing in football - keepers are turning up believing they'll have  a blinder, our strikers are believing they can't score  - whether its  a stand in keeper, a lad playing against his idols, first time at anfield etc etc it shouldn't really matter but it does - every team seems to have a story at the moment - whether is bottom of the table blackburn, resurgent Wigan, plucky Swansea, plucky Norwich, unbeatable City...blah blah blah and next its Super Krul - we should be planting the seed now that he's had so much luck all season friday he's going to have  a mare, that some team is going to be obliterated and its going to be sooner rather than later and that when they do all the others will follow
someone will get a battering, there will be a game thats going to see everything we hit go in, maybe three games, maybe half a season - the players and the fans need to keep believing that - the crowd have lost that belief and so have the players and now its starting to look like some self fulfilling prophecy

we need a change - we need to believe that when we shoot its going to go in - how Kenny makes that happen I dont know - a change of personnel, put them in blindfolds, tell them to use ttheir wrong foot,  stand on one leg and spit over their left shoulder, he needs to get them to play without the fear of missing which is crucifying us-  I've no bleedin idea how but somehow he needs to tap in to that inner voice in people , the one thats currently telling people same ol, same ol as soon as we miss a chance - and get it to shut the fuck up along with those blerts who are judging players based on undeserved results,  when the lads are low in confidence but still outplaying teams

didn't think we played great yesterday but again we did more than enough to win regardless of the percieved performances of certain players - other teams turn games where they dont deserve to win into victory we do the reverse = we need to chnage that around and that less to do with whether Carroll is good or very good and more to do with whether he believes he's going to score.

Sometimes someone makes a post which saves you both the time and effort, for me Vulmeas post makes 100% sense to me.
Still Dreaming of a Harry Quinn

Offline Mutton Geoff

  • 'The Invigilator'
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,663
  • Life is a journey, not a destination.
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2011, 03:11:40 am »
I know people have had issues with Downing since we bought him but in this game he was beyond reproach he did his job, the amount of clear cut chances missed was the story of this season, as for the midfield was sterile till Stevie came on,  well judging by the chances created no they were not, and to be fair Stevie gifted them a chance near the end when he was robbed of the ball on the edge of our box!

Seems to me we do everything right until we are in their box and then the nerves take hold, we need to put away a few chances in just one game rattle up about 5 and watch the confidence kick in!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 03:13:17 am by waiting for Monica? »
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline robblac1

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • YNWA
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2011, 07:08:47 am »
Thought this was the well considered, none knee jerking thread? Seem to have stumbled into the we're all doomed, isn't it terrible thread?

We've missed more chances than any other team - we've also created more - for this to be explained as we aren't good enough is missing the bleedin point isn't it? Someone's cup is well and truly half empty eh?

The keeper pulling off one blinding save in a match isn't a result of our players being crap its a result of the keeper pulling off a blinding save.  The 'we need better finishing' argument is fine and even yesterday there were at least two occasions when a better finish would have been a goal ok but offside goals, keeper mistakes, mishit shots, deflections, the ball just to one side of the keeper, through their legs,   etc happen all the time - just not to us currently.

Belief is a funny old thing in football - keepers are turning up believing they'll have  a blinder, our strikers are believing they can't score  - whether its  a stand in keeper, a lad playing against his idols, first time at anfield etc etc it shouldn't really matter but it does - every team seems to have a story at the moment - whether is bottom of the table blackburn, resurgent Wigan, plucky Swansea, plucky Norwich, unbeatable City...blah blah blah and next its Super Krul - we should be planting the seed now that he's had so much luck all season friday he's going to have  a mare, that some team is going to be obliterated and its going to be sooner rather than later and that when they do all the others will follow
someone will get a battering, there will be a game thats going to see everything we hit go in, maybe three games, maybe half a season - the players and the fans need to keep believing that - the crowd have lost that belief and so have the players and now its starting to look like some self fulfilling prophecy

we need a change - we need to believe that when we shoot its going to go in - how Kenny makes that happen I dont know - a change of personnel, put them in blindfolds, tell them to use ttheir wrong foot,  stand on one leg and spit over their left shoulder, he needs to get them to play without the fear of missing which is crucifying us-  I've no bleedin idea how but somehow he needs to tap in to that inner voice in people , the one thats currently telling people same ol, same ol as soon as we miss a chance - and get it to shut the fuck up along with those blerts who are judging players based on undeserved results,  when the lads are low in confidence but still outplaying teams

didn't think we played great yesterday but again we did more than enough to win regardless of the percieved performances of certain players - other teams turn games where they dont deserve to win into victory we do the reverse = we need to chnage that around and that less to do with whether Carroll is good or very good and more to do with whether he believes he's going to score.
This.
Just watched the second half again, and I thought we played reasonably well. A few things werent quite coming off, but overall we did enough to win it. Still only four points off third...keep the faith boys and girls, keep the faith.

Offline ArcticRed

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Kopite
  • ******
  • Posts: 881
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2011, 10:12:53 am »
This.
Just watched the second half again, and I thought we played reasonably well. A few things werent quite coming off, but overall we did enough to win it. Still only four points off third...keep the faith boys and girls, keep the faith.
Funny thing I've noticed discussing with fellow supporters (out in the "world", not in here) is that the people complaining about the quality and precision of Downings crosses are more or less the same who spend whole matches complaining about us having only one player in the box for them. Go figure.
:D

Edit: No idea why I ended up quoting your post... as my response was supposed to be regarding Downing :P
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 10:15:39 am by ArcticRed »

Offline The Red artist.

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,290
  • With hope in your heart.
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2011, 11:26:50 am »
I just dont understand all the doom and gloom, we'r half way through Kenny's first full season, we have arguably the best defence in the league, a massive plus. Yes we'r missing Lucas in the middle, that was bound to happen given Lucas's form over the last 18 months. Our problem is not hitting the onion bag, this will get sorted.

If we wernt creating chances i might be a bit worried, but i'm not in the slightest. patience is the key, its really that simple for me. Too many people just try to find problems and think they know the answers, just leave it to the main men in charge and let them get on wi their jobs of making us great again.

This season has gone pretty much as i expected, ups and downs, no probs.
Y.N.W.A....J.F.T.96.

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2011, 05:36:39 pm »
I've been to a few matches this season and I've noticed one issue that has been significantly evident recently.  It's how we attack.

The main players who create our attacks are  Enrique, Downing, Johnson, Bellamy  and Maxi.  Now apart from Maxi, all these players attack down the wings.  Adam and Henderson spread the ball out wide, and once the widemen get the ball they head off mainly in a  straight line forward quite close the the side line.  It's kind of like a U formation.  Once they get toward the by-line they hoist in cross after cross after cross.  Not much is being done with these crosses because it's a style of play that doesn't really suit our main goal scorers, Suare and Maxi, especially with Carroll out the team.  Plus it's all very one-dimensional.

It's also apparant that since Lucas has been injured, even less of our attacking passes go though the centre.  Lucas would provide Suarez with a consistent supply of what AVB calls 'vertical passes',  passes that go stright forward in to feet.  Suarez thrives on these passes.  Currently only Maxi  plays these regularly, and it helps explain why Maxi and Luis have such a good understanding.. 

So our attacks have become predictable.  Adam and Henderson will get the ball, they'll play it wide to the FB's and wingers, who will attack at full speed down the wing.  Yet Suarez would much rather have passes that involve him in the middle third of the pitch (width ways) such as the vertical passes in and around the edge of the penalty box, or in behind that set him away behind the defence.    Look at Adam's chalkboard and you can see he plays way too many 'lateral' passes rather than direct vertical ones.  We are left with a vacuum in the middle of the U formation we attack with.  If Carroll isn't in the team we need to adapt our style of attack.  If he is, the crosses need to be better and some sort of system developed to help integrate him in to the team.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline -HH-

  • 'cocky bastard'?
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,405
  • Never forget the Hillsborough victims
    • Footy fans
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2011, 05:49:19 pm »
I've been to a few matches this season and I've noticed one issue that has been significantly evident recently.  It's how we attack.

The main players who create our attacks are  Enrique, Downing, Johnson, Bellamy  and Maxi.  Now apart from Maxi, all these players attack down the wings.  Adam and Henderson spread the ball out wide, and once the widemen get the ball they head off mainly in a  straight line forward quite close the the side line.  It's kind of like a U formation.  Once they get toward the by-line they hoist in cross after cross after cross.  Not much is being done with these crosses because it's a style of play that doesn't really suit our main goal scorers, Suare and Maxi, especially with Carroll out the team.  Plus it's all very one-dimensional.

It's also apparant that since Lucas has been injured, even less of our attacking passes go though the centre.  Lucas would provide Suarez with a consistent supply of what AVB calls 'vertical passes',  passes that go stright forward in to feet.  Suarez thrives on these passes.  Currently only Maxi  plays these regularly, and it helps explain why Maxi and Luis have such a good understanding.. 

So our attacks have become predictable.  Adam and Henderson will get the ball, they'll play it wide to the FB's and wingers, who will attack at full speed down the wing.  Yet Suarez would much rather have passes that involve him in the middle third of the pitch (width ways) such as the vertical passes in and around the edge of the penalty box, or in behind that set him away behind the defence.    Look at Adam's chalkboard and you can see he plays way too many 'lateral' passes rather than direct vertical ones.  We are left with a vacuum in the middle of the U formation we attack with.  If Carroll isn't in the team we need to adapt our style of attack.  If he is, the crosses need to be better and some sort of system developed to help integrate him in to the team.

I disagree quite strongly about Charlie Adam. Early in the season he was playing far too many of those passes when something much simpler was on (usually sideways, yes, but into space and that would have kept moves going that petered out). He took the harder option too often, at the wrong times and it hurt us. Combined with the fact that our midfield had been getting overrun with him in at the time I was concerned about what he was bringing to the team.

Blackburn was his worst game for a long time, so it's maybe the wrong time to make this argument but he has been a lot better recently and it's easier to see where he can fit into our style of play. He's going to obviously struggle more with the defensive side with Henderson alongside him rather than Lucas and he'll have days like that when his passing is off but he's a creative midfielder, we're arguably the most creative side in the division. He's a big part of that.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Offline neopulian

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
  • veni, vidi, vici
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2011, 05:53:54 pm »
Carroll isn't the problem, he's the scapegoat by players and fans. When he plays the team doesn't look as flowing, not because Carroll plays badly but because the players, espescially the new ones, see him as an easy way out. Seems to me like the players are always using him as an escape when they don't want to take the chance themselves. "Two players against me I'll boot it to Carroll" or "running out of breath I'll boot it to Carroll" "5 against 1 in the box. Come on Andy you've done it against worse"

Can you prove this nonsense?

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2011, 06:18:57 pm »
I've been to a few matches this season and I've noticed one issue that has been significantly evident recently.  It's how we attack.

The main players who create our attacks are  Enrique, Downing, Johnson, Bellamy  and Maxi.  Now apart from Maxi, all these players attack down the wings.  Adam and Henderson spread the ball out wide, and once the widemen get the ball they head off mainly in a  straight line forward quite close the the side line.  It's kind of like a U formation.  Once they get toward the by-line they hoist in cross after cross after cross.  Not much is being done with these crosses because it's a style of play that doesn't really suit our main goal scorers, Suare and Maxi, especially with Carroll out the team.  Plus it's all very one-dimensional.

It's also apparant that since Lucas has been injured, even less of our attacking passes go though the centre.  Lucas would provide Suarez with a consistent supply of what AVB calls 'vertical passes',  passes that go stright forward in to feet.  Suarez thrives on these passes.  Currently only Maxi  plays these regularly, and it helps explain why Maxi and Luis have such a good understanding.. 

So our attacks have become predictable.  Adam and Henderson will get the ball, they'll play it wide to the FB's and wingers, who will attack at full speed down the wing.  Yet Suarez would much rather have passes that involve him in the middle third of the pitch (width ways) such as the vertical passes in and around the edge of the penalty box, or in behind that set him away behind the defence.    Look at Adam's chalkboard and you can see he plays way too many 'lateral' passes rather than direct vertical ones.  We are left with a vacuum in the middle of the U formation we attack with.  If Carroll isn't in the team we need to adapt our style of attack.  If he is, the crosses need to be better and some sort of system developed to help integrate him in to the team.

Great post!
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline RedinExile

  • credulous ingratiating simpleton
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,385
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2011, 06:34:17 pm »
I've been to a few matches this season and I've noticed one issue that has been significantly evident recently.  It's how we attack.

Certainly mirrors a lot of what I've been thinking. For a long time now there have been complaints we have lacked wingers/width. It appears this is something Kenny was keen to address, although we now have (at least in this game) cross after cross coming in that wasn't converted. Either the striker was in a good position and the ball in was shocking, or the ball in was great and the finish was below par. I don't remember many efforts (GJ's little dinky reverse pass aside) where we went through the middle in this game. It does look like we expected Suarez, Downing, Maxi and AC to turn crosses into goals, in this game at least. It almost worked but was too one-dimensional, although this changed somewhat when stevie came on like :)
There are always more fortresses to torch.

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2011, 06:37:15 pm »
Can you prove this nonsense?

This is a Round Table thread, which means we try to make a bit of an effort. So, if you want to call someone else's post "nonsense", it's considered good form to try to support that with some, er, thought.

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2011, 07:02:54 pm »
I disagree quite strongly about Charlie Adam. Early in the season he was playing far too many of those passes when something much simpler was on (usually sideways, yes, but into space and that would have kept moves going that petered out). He took the harder option too often, at the wrong times and it hurt us. Combined with the fact that our midfield had been getting overrun with him in at the time I was concerned about what he was bringing to the team.

Blackburn was his worst game for a long time, so it's maybe the wrong time to make this argument but he has been a lot better recently and it's easier to see where he can fit into our style of play. He's going to obviously struggle more with the defensive side with Henderson alongside him rather than Lucas and he'll have days like that when his passing is off but he's a creative midfielder, we're arguably the most creative side in the division. He's a big part of that.

I think maybe you misunderstood what I mean by vertical passes.  I don't mean the long diagonal Hollywood passes that Charlie is known for.  I'm talking short to medium length passes on the floor, in to feet, that go vertically forward, i.e kinda parallel to the side line.  An example at 0:54 in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imXvxnMnaro  these are the kind of incisive attacking passes that the team is missing since Lucas has been injured, and they are the kind of passes Suarez thrives on.  Another example is at 1:31 in this clip:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cumlpc9Z4oM.  Both Adam and Henderson play lateral passes to the wings, hence my point about our attacks being U shaped, hardly anything goes through the middle making us one-dimensional.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline MartinSkrtelsBasement

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 738
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2011, 07:13:08 pm »
Agree.  That belief is not something which can be bought or just as easily manifested.  It is harvested over time and needs the right conditions in which to blossom.  We can only hope now that our owners will give us that time with investment and that Dalglish along with senior members of the coaching staff and the playing squad are able to instil that type of mentality.

United have created a system which is supported by the players, not the other way around.  They also have a culture which rewards on merit and not reputation.  It's not just them there are other examples throughout world football.  In that way they can even replace world class players with individuals of less talent and still maintain success because the system and culture doesn't walk out of the door with the talent.

Agree with every word of this. As much as it may hurt to hand it to the Mancs, they have got it spot on in this area. Probably why they have got away with having mediocre players in their midfield for some time now.

The trouble in finding the back of the net cannot be attributed solely to poor finishing. Finishing in a sense is an ambiguous term, as it requires a variety of skills. Theoretically, every footballer from the Premiership down to the Ryman league are more than able to kick a ball in the net.

As much as it is driving me mad watching Liverpool at this point in time, at least we are creating chances and defending solidly, where as under Hodgson I almost couldn't be arsed to watch this club that I hold so dear. Finishing for me, is a fairly small and simple step which would turn what many are viewing as a catastrophe at the moment, into happy days.
Pirlo is a silent leader. He speaks with his feet.
—Marcello Lippi

Offline -HH-

  • 'cocky bastard'?
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,405
  • Never forget the Hillsborough victims
    • Footy fans
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2011, 07:19:07 pm »
I think maybe you misunderstood what I mean by vertical passes.  I don't mean the long diagonal Hollywood passes that Charlie is known for.  I'm talking short to medium length passes on the floor, in to feet, that go vertically forward, i.e kinda parallel to the side line.  An example at 0:54 in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imXvxnMnaro  these are the kind of incisive attacking passes that the team is missing since Lucas has been injured, and they are the kind of passes Suarez thrives on.  Another example is at 1:31 in this clip:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cumlpc9Z4oM.  Both Adam and Henderson play lateral passes to the wings, hence my point about our attacks being U shaped, hardly anything goes through the middle making us one-dimensional.

I'm not misunderstanding - Adam was trying exactly those kinds of passes too often early in the season (Sunderland and Wolves being 2 prime examples of games where he tried to get the ball into Suarez's feet like that when easier passes were on and ended up costing the team. He (and the team) have improved since he started to pick his moments.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

  • Pitbull #2. Fanning the flames of debate since 03/06/10.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,806
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2011, 07:19:39 pm »
I think maybe you misunderstood what I mean by vertical passes.  I don't mean the long diagonal Hollywood passes that Charlie is known for.  I'm talking short to medium length passes on the floor, in to feet, that go vertically forward, i.e kinda parallel to the side line.  An example at 0:54 in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imXvxnMnaro  these are the kind of incisive attacking passes that the team is missing since Lucas has been injured, and they are the kind of passes Suarez thrives on.  Another example is at 1:31 in this clip:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cumlpc9Z4oM.  Both Adam and Henderson play lateral passes to the wings, hence my point about our attacks being U shaped, hardly anything goes through the middle making us one-dimensional.
Agree with this.

However Utd have done this for years and years, and it can be very hard to stop when done well. Problem we have it that especially with Lucas out and Adam in, we move the ball too slowly from midfield to the wings. Example was when Adam received a pass from the left wing, let it run past his body onto his right foot, doubted himself with his right and instead of passing first time to a flying Johnson who had the whole right side to himself, checks evades a tackle and then makes the pass with his left. All movement wasted, our team and forwards in limbo.

Also Utd's wingers tend to get the ball into the box first time. Downing seems to want to beat his man twice, three times, at which case anyone making a run in the box ends up static, making it very easy for the CB to face the ball and clear.

The worry is Chelsea played like that under maureen and Clarke, but had the brusier in Drogba to make it work. Carroll isn't (yet) that bruiser. So is Clarke asking the players to move the ball quicker and get the ball into the box quicker? I don't think he is. It's something he had West Ham at as well.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,489
  • The first five yards........
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2011, 07:23:47 pm »
Interesting to see - again - the divergence of opinion about Downing's performance. Myself, I thought it was pretty good (again). Certainly, if we're looking to identify problems they're elsewhere.

I think much of the confusion about Downing comes from what people expect from wingers. In particular it comes from what value they put on crossing the ball. Is Downing there to ping lovely balls on to the top of Carroll's head? Or is he there to widen the pitch, take out defenders, and carry the ball quickly through the zones? If it's the first you'd have to admit that he hasn't been very successful. But if it's the second you'd probably agree that he's made a big difference to Liverpool's stultifying play of recent times.

Someone said that defenders weren't bothering to double-up on him the other day. That's correct. In fact they were tripling, especially towards the end. And even then Downing was either still getting his cross in (and thereby taking 3 of their men out of the game) or finding an unmarked Johnson to do it for him. Once he even dribbled his way past all three. The pity was that we couldn't capitalise on the lad's ability to take the extra creative burden. And, yes, sometimes he picked the wrong final pass.

Naturally I'd like to see Downing ping the ball onto Carroll's unmarked head. But I'm a realist. That's not going to happen too often. Not because Downing's no good at crossing (or even that Carroll's no good at finding space), but because modern footballers find dealing with crosses quite easy. It's a bit less easy if you are hit on the break by a sequence of first-time balls, but Blackburn - as even Downing's detractors will have noticed - weren't hit on the break once yesterday for the simple and obvious reason that they never attacked in numbers. 

Therefore the problem wasn't the accuracy - or not  -  of Downing's crosses. It was the fact that alternatives to crossing weren't explored enough. This can also be said of the left flank where Enrique (and towards the end Bellamy) also found few heads. Indeed it's been the story of our season so far.

A team that commands quality possession in the opponent's half like we do, and which has such pace and technique on the flanks should be exploiting the middle of the pitch better than we are doing. It's the difference between us and Tottenham at the moment. They have Modric and van der Vaart in the final third who like to cut through teams in the middle and use Bale's ability to widen the pitch and attract markers to do just that. We have a sedentary Charlie Adam and a young lad (in Henderson) who is enthusiastic but not wise yet.

When Gerrard came on yesterday things looked much better. His ability to move at pace with the ball down the middle and take out opponents with a positive first touch showed what is possible. Our best chances of scoring all happened with Gerrard on the pitch. Alas, Downing squandered one of the best opportunities when he tried to place the ball in the corner instead of passing the ball back to Gerrard.

Charlie Adam? I like him but he's playing a game that's 20 years out of date. He's a Hoddle or a Hudson type. Trap the ball, look up, sling a lovely 30 yard pass out to the flanks, put your hands on your hips and saunter around until next time. He seems to slow play down when we need to quicken it. And he's still not keen on doing the defensive work. There was a truly mystifying bit of marking on 15 minutes where Adam went on walk about and decided to mark their centre back. A better team than Blackburn would have cut us open and scored. Sure, he gives us some lovely moments - but in exactly the same way as Dunne has been giving Blackburn some lovely moments this season. He's a bit 1970s too.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

  • Pitbull #2. Fanning the flames of debate since 03/06/10.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,806
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2011, 07:35:03 pm »
Interesting to see - again - the divergence of opinion about Downing's performance. Myself, I thought it was pretty good (again). Certainly, if we're looking to identify problems they're elsewhere.

I think much of the confusion about Downing comes from what people expect from wingers. In particular it comes from what value they put on crossing the ball. Is Downing there to ping lovely balls on to the top of Carroll's head? Or is he there to widen the pitch, take out defenders, and carry the ball quickly through the zones? If it's the first you'd have to admit that he hasn't been very successful. But if it's the second you'd probably agree that he's made a big difference to Liverpool's stultifying play of recent times.

Someone said that defenders weren't bothering to double-up on him the other day. That's correct. In fact they were tripling, especially towards the end. And even then Downing was either still getting his cross in (and thereby taking 3 of their men out of the game) or finding an unmarked Johnson to do it for him. Once he even dribbled his way past all three. The pity was that we couldn't capitalise on the lad's ability to take the extra creative burden. And, yes, sometimes he picked the wrong final pass.

Naturally I'd like to see Downing ping the ball onto Carroll's unmarked head. But I'm a realist. That's not going to happen too often. Not because Downing's no good at crossing (or even that Carroll's no good at finding space), but because modern footballers find dealing with crosses quite easy. It's a bit less easy if you are hit on the break by a sequence of first-time balls, but Blackburn - as even Downing's detractors will have noticed - weren't hit on the break once yesterday for the simple and obvious reason that they never attacked in numbers. 

Therefore the problem wasn't the accuracy - or not  -  of Downing's crosses. It was the fact that alternatives to crossing weren't explored enough. This can also be said of the left flank where Enrique (and towards the end Bellamy) also found few heads. Indeed it's been the story of our season so far.

A team that commands quality possession in the opponent's half like we do, and which has such pace and technique on the flanks should be exploiting the middle of the pitch better than we are doing. It's the difference between us and Tottenham at the moment. They have Modric and van der Vaart in the final third who like to cut through teams in the middle and use Bale's ability to widen the pitch and attract markers to do just that. We have a sedentary Charlie Adam and a young lad (in Henderson) who is enthusiastic but not wise yet.

When Gerrard came on yesterday things looked much better. His ability to move at pace with the ball down the middle and take out opponents with a positive first touch showed what is possible. Our best chances of scoring all happened with Gerrard on the pitch. Alas, Downing squandered one of the best opportunities when he tried to place the ball in the corner instead of passing the ball back to Gerrard.

Charlie Adam? I like him but he's playing a game that's 20 years out of date. He's a Hoddle or a Hudson type. Trap the ball, look up, sling a lovely 30 yard pass out to the flanks, put your hands on your hips and saunter around until next time. He seems to slow play down when we need to quicken it. And he's still not keen on doing the defensive work. There was a truly mystifying bit of marking on 15 minutes where Adam went on walk about and decided to mark their centre back. A better team than Blackburn would have cut us open and scored. Sure, he gives us some lovely moments - but in exactly the same way as Dunne has been giving Blackburn some lovely moments this season. He's a bit 1970s too.
scott said we are currently looking for a Am, Dm and a striker.

That would help make us a really good side depending on who they buy and who steps up. If we can get Downing and Carroll communicating better we could swap between a few different styles, but we need to move the ball quicker and get the ball into the box first time.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2011, 07:41:55 pm »
I'm not misunderstanding - Adam was trying exactly those kinds of passes too often early in the season (Sunderland and Wolves being 2 prime examples of games where he tried to get the ball into Suarez's feet like that when easier passes were on and ended up costing the team. He (and the team) have improved since he started to pick his moments.

OK fair enough.  If that s the case it's a reflection on Adam.  Good that he has started to think about which pass to play, bad that he hasn't got what it takes to make this type of pass accurately and at the correct time and therefore goes for the lateral pass, making our attacking play one-dimensional.   Both Lucas and Gerrard know exactly when to play the vertical passes in to Maxi and Suarez, and we are suffering with their absence in the heart of our midfield.  Personally I think an LFC quality midfielder should be able to do this, but heyho.  Adam certainly didn't atttempt many, if any of these passes against Blackburn, hence the reliance on the wide players.

Agree completely with YorkyKopite's last paragraph.  At some point in the not too distant future our 1070's style midfield is going to cost us big style.  Wigan, Blackburn, QPR  and Villa might not have made us pay. but I'm not sure Man City, and other top four teams will be so charitable. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 07:47:34 pm by leivapool »
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2011, 07:52:54 pm »
scott said we are currently looking for a Am, Dm and a striker.


Exactly what I was hoping for... in summer... but better now than never!!

I have a wishlist but in general I just would be happy for ANY top class, best all three of them.

Concerning Downing I think that he linked better with his team mates but should he get credit for doing the obvious minimum for the job for being a (pass and move) Liverpool player? I dunno.

Same is probably true for Adam. I am pretty impressed how he improved and worked for the defense for a couple of games now. But is it enough? Shouldn´t we expect more than what other players already gave us last year?

Still cannot figure what made us go for this kind of signings..

I think they are both alright as squad players, not more and Gerrard showed this when coming on with being a class above the rest of the midfield which was just frightening to watch.

We need better quality, especially when it comes to our attacking play as Kenny is able to make pretty much every player fit into our defending as a unit. In attack though, talent counts and that´s what we are missing cause right now, as Leivapool pointed out correctly, we are nothing else than predictable in our creative attacking play.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:06:34 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline GrkStav

  • Has a statuette of Lucas on the bonnet of his car which he polishes lovingly with Lucas Brasso. Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,981
  • Not very good at 'banter'.
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2011, 07:57:30 pm »
OK fair enough.  If that s the case it's a reflection on Adam.  Good that he has started to think about which pass to play, bad that he hasn't got what it takes to make this type of pass accurately and at the correct time and therefore goes for the lateral pass, making our attacking play one-dimensional.   Both Lucas and Gerrard know exactly when to play the vertical passes in to Maxi and Suarez, and we are suffering with their absence in the heart of our midfield.  Personally I think an LFC quality midfielder should be able to do this, but heyho.  Adam certainly didn't atttempt many, if any of these passes against Blackburn, hence the reliance on the wide players.

Agree completely with YorkyKopite's last paragraph.  At some point in the not too distant future our 1070's style midfield is going to cost us big style.  Wigan, Blackburn, QPR  and Villa might not have made us pay. but I'm not sure Man City, and other top four teams will be so charitable.

Adam's redeeming feature is his apparent willingness to keep trying. Both he and Hendo appear to be very eager, very conscientious (relatively) young footballers. Effort and commitment are not the same as 'effectiveness' but they sure as heck beat apparent unwillingness to try to improve.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2011, 08:19:34 pm »
Adam's redeeming feature is his apparent willingness to keep trying. Both he and Hendo appear to be very eager, very conscientious (relatively) young footballers. Effort and commitment are not the same as 'effectiveness' but they sure as heck beat apparent unwillingness to try to improve.

Well that certainly stands for Henderson who I feel at 21 has bags of ability and technique to combine with his faultless attitude.  Adam?  No, not for me.  He's 26, his prime.  I doubt there's much if any improvement really there.  Never doubted his desire to improve, his attitude, or his commitment, but I never doubted that in Poulsen or Cole either.  It's all about quality and effectiveness for me, and I doubt Adam has enough quality to be effective for us if we wish to improve from 6th in the league in this or future seasons.  Nothing I saw with my own eyes at Blackpool has changed this opinion.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline locultom

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Anny Roader
  • ******
  • Posts: 446
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2011, 08:52:16 pm »
I've been to a few matches this season and I've noticed one issue that has been significantly evident recently.  It's how we attack.

The main players who create our attacks are  Enrique, Downing, Johnson, Bellamy  and Maxi.  Now apart from Maxi, all these players attack down the wings.  Adam and Henderson spread the ball out wide, and once the widemen get the ball they head off mainly in a  straight line forward quite close the the side line.  It's kind of like a U formation.  Once they get toward the by-line they hoist in cross after cross after cross.  Not much is being done with these crosses because it's a style of play that doesn't really suit our main goal scorers, Suare and Maxi, especially with Carroll out the team.  Plus it's all very one-dimensional.

It's also apparant that since Lucas has been injured, even less of our attacking passes go though the centre.  Lucas would provide Suarez with a consistent supply of what AVB calls 'vertical passes',  passes that go stright forward in to feet.  Suarez thrives on these passes.  Currently only Maxi  plays these regularly, and it helps explain why Maxi and Luis have such a good understanding.. 

So our attacks have become predictable.  Adam and Henderson will get the ball, they'll play it wide to the FB's and wingers, who will attack at full speed down the wing.  Yet Suarez would much rather have passes that involve him in the middle third of the pitch (width ways) such as the vertical passes in and around the edge of the penalty box, or in behind that set him away behind the defence.    Look at Adam's chalkboard and you can see he plays way too many 'lateral' passes rather than direct vertical ones.  We are left with a vacuum in the middle of the U formation we attack with.  If Carroll isn't in the team we need to adapt our style of attack.  If he is, the crosses need to be better and some sort of system developed to help integrate him in to the team.

Sounds very similar to this I posted the other day in the preferred tactics thread.

Thing is we are set up to make chances but not to take them. The only player playing anywhere through the middle in the attacking third today was Carroll and there is no way he is fast,athletic or skillful enough to play in there on his own.

All of our attacking work is coming from wide(r) positions. Suarez drifts from in to out, Maxi moves in from the wide, Downing from wide, Enrique and Johnson from wide leaving no one to take or chances. There's nobody arriving from an attacking midfield position centrally and nobody playing centrally between the lines.

We are creating a lot of chances but not enough from good positions and our set up needs adjusting. Suarez needs to play centrally and we need a three in midfield so someone can arrive in the box or play between the lines.

We are too easy to nullify by letting us have it wide and packing the box. Playing Carroll doesn't help but his performances are neither the cause or the symptom of our problems. We need to adjust both the personnel and the shape of the team.


We need both a short term fix and a long term solution to our shape and pattern of play. I think it will come with a change in personnel over the next 2 windows and maybe a subtle change in shape and emphasis. I don't think we are a mile away from consolidating our progress and moving our play on a level but I do think that we are in a critical phase.
No-one wants to stay in the Travelodge by choice. It's always a last resort. No-ones thinking, Id love to stay in a room so blandly anonymous that it looks like the burial chamber of the king of an ancient civilisation which valued above all bland anonymity.

Offline GrkStav

  • Has a statuette of Lucas on the bonnet of his car which he polishes lovingly with Lucas Brasso. Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,981
  • Not very good at 'banter'.
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2011, 09:01:17 pm »
Well that certainly stands for Henderson who I feel at 21 has bags of ability and technique to combine with his faultless attitude.  Adam?  No, not for me.  He's 26, his prime.  I doubt there's much if any improvement really there.  Never doubted his desire to improve, his attitude, or his commitment, but I never doubted that in Poulsen or Cole either.  It's all about quality and effectiveness for me, and I doubt Adam has enough quality to be effective for us if we wish to improve from 6th in the league in this or future seasons.  Nothing I saw with my own eyes at Blackpool has changed this opinion.

I doubted Cole big time. Poulsen was eager but completely physically spent.

I am slightly more positively inclined towards Adam than you are. Still, at times I CRINGE at what he does on the pitch. Like a very solicitous but a bit drunk person trying to give it 110%. Not pretty.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2011, 09:07:56 pm »
Like a very solicitous but a bit drunk person trying to give it 110%. Not pretty.

That´s what it looks like when a players tries to perform above his abilites ;)

One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2011, 09:37:02 pm »
Sounds very similar to this I posted the other day in the preferred tactics thread.



Indeed it does, but I never saw that, my work is all my own, promise  ;D
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2011, 09:42:20 pm »


We need both a short term fix and a long term solution to our shape and pattern of play. I think it will come with a change in personnel over the next 2 windows and maybe a subtle change in shape and emphasis. I don't think we are a mile away from consolidating our progress and moving our play on a level but I do think that we are in a critical phase.

I agree.  I saw a formation posted in one of the threads that put  Masch and Alonso where Henderson and Adam played against Blackburn, and Torres for Carroll.  3 players, yet the team looked so different.  Obviously we aren't going to go back in time, but a team of Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Enrique, Lucas, (Alonso-ish player), 2 of Maxi, Downing, Bellamy, and Suarez with a  Torres -type player would be some serious team.

We're close, but Adam is no Alonso, and Carroll isn't Torres.  Will they ever be at that level?  Who knows, but they need to be for us to get the the next level, i.e top 4.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline stockdam

  • The sheer loftus-cheek of the man.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,589
  • Walk on through the wind, Walk on through the rain
Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2011, 10:57:07 pm »
I think we had over 25 or 26 shots shots against Blackburn's 5 or 6. We had about 7 shots on target against their one.

Overall I believe that we have had more shots than any other team but our conversion rate is the worst in the league (8%).

Hence we need to get more shots on target and score more goals. Are we shooting too early and not picking our chances better?
#JFT97