Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[JohnnoWhite]

When you say "intimidating", is that another anti-JC euphemism for enquiring why yet again, the press are essentially schtum?

[Alan_X]

Momentum now intimidating journalists for not covering Jeremy Corbyn favourably enough. Genuinely.

Hardly intimidating. He could barely keep a straight face.

[zero zero]

Momentum now intimidating journalists for not covering Jeremy Corbyn favourably enough. Genuinely.

Intimidating might be stretching it a bit mate. I can see where this is going: New Labour=The Tories. The New Stateman=Murdoch. Everybody is the Right Wing Meeja if you don't like what they're writing.

[TheShanklyGates]

It's all a bit Trump and 'fake news' from Momentum.

[Trada]

Labour Students
 hapless socialist‏ @alistaircraig_

It looked like Corbyn supporters were going to win the Labour Students elections, so they've cancelled them.


STATEMENT FROM NATIONAL COMMITTEE ON LABOUR STUDENTS ELECTIONS

"The fact that we cannot be sure exactly how many Labour Students will be disenfranchised, and the overwhelming majority of our electorate are currently non-students, is staggering."

Labour Students National Committee discussed the next steps of our democracy, and how we can elect a new National Committee before the end of the academic year. We agreed to incorporate the election into a special stand-alone Labour Students Transitional Conference, to be governed by the rules outlined in Article 11 of our constitution. Under these rules, each Labour Club will be able to send up to four delegates to conference, of which at least two must be self-defining women members, in line with our new constitution."

[classycarra]

When you say "intimidating", is that another anti-JC euphemism for enquiring why yet again, the press are essentially schtum?

The problem isn't that they've kept schtum, it's that they did an article outlining how shite a job Corbyn has done that's got them in Momentum's bad books

[TepidT2O]

Labour Students
 hapless socialist‏ @alistaircraig_

It looked like Corbyn supporters were going to win the Labour Students elections, so they've cancelled them.


STATEMENT FROM NATIONAL COMMITTEE ON LABOUR STUDENTS ELECTIONS

"The fact that we cannot be sure exactly how many Labour Students will be disenfranchised, and the overwhelming majority of our electorate are currently non-students, is staggering."

Labour Students National Committee discussed the next steps of our democracy, and how we can elect a new National Committee before the end of the academic year. We agreed to incorporate the election into a special stand-alone Labour Students Transitional Conference, to be governed by the rules outlined in Article 11 of our constitution. Under these rules, each Labour Club will be able to send up to four delegates to conference, of which at least two must be self-defining women members, in line with our new constitution."

They don't actually know who their members are... that's quite staggering, but certainly no cover up ....

The bigger scandal would have been if people who weren't students voted for candidates ..

Surely?

Today Labour Students National Committee received a report from the Labour Party regarding Labour Students membership data requirements. The Director for Membership and Party Services at the Labour Party explained the content of the report to committee, and the implications of these for this years Labour Students’ elections.

This report follows our concerns with the way that the Labour Party determines a valid student member. Until this point, there has been no checks done by the Party to establish that Labour Students members are actually students, and no guarantees for those members who are students but don’t appear on our membership list.

This has resulted in a situation where an unknown number, potentially tens of thousands, of our members won’t get a vote in an online ballot, and thousands of non-students will. Therefore, it was advised that using those members designated as Labour Students in our membership system to verify eligibility to vote in an OMOV ballot is not a viable option at this stage.

It goes without saying that we are extremely disappointed in the Labour Party, and frustrated to be informed so late in the academic year of this widespread problem. It is simply not good enough that the Labour Party membership database is not consistent with the requirements of our new constitution which was adopted at National Council in December 2016.

The fact that we cannot be sure exactly how many Labour Students will be disenfranchised, and the overwhelming majority of our electorate are currently non-students, is staggering. That is why we agreed today for the Membership and Party Services department to carry out an in-depth investigation to assess the scope, timescale and resource implications of such a change to the Labour Party’s membership database.

Labour Students National Committee also discussed the next steps of our democracy in the interim, and how we can elect a new National Committee before the end of the academic year. We agreed to incorporate the election into a special stand-alone Labour Students Transitional Conference, to be governed by the rules outlined in Article 11 of our constitution. Under these rules, each Labour Club will be able to send up to four delegates to conference, of which at least two must be self-defining women members, in line with our new constitution.

We decided that the flat-rate delegation allowance as prescribed in our constitution is the fairest and most constitutional outcome. It would not be appropriate to weight a delegation against the membership of an individual Labour Club as it is concerns with our membership system that prompted the Transitional Conference. Concerns were raised around the infiltration of Labour Clubs by members of rival political parties, thus contributing to the size of any weighted delegation entitlement. It was agreed that the possible imbalance created in our membership of thousands of non-students meant the 4 delegate entitlement was the most constitutional and most feasible arrangement. This was further discussed by members of elections committee in attendance who are satisfied that internal obligations have been met.

Following the meeting we agreed the elections committee convene as soon as possible to approve the timetable for National Committee elections. After this has been decided, it will be circulated to National Committee, Club Chairs and all members will be notified over the next few days.

[TheShanklyGates]

Labour Students
 hapless socialist‏ @alistaircraig_

It looked like Corbyn supporters were going to win the Labour Students elections, so they've cancelled them.


STATEMENT FROM NATIONAL COMMITTEE ON LABOUR STUDENTS ELECTIONS

"The fact that we cannot be sure exactly how many Labour Students will be disenfranchised, and the overwhelming majority of our electorate are currently non-students, is staggering."

Labour Students National Committee discussed the next steps of our democracy, and how we can elect a new National Committee before the end of the academic year. We agreed to incorporate the election into a special stand-alone Labour Students Transitional Conference, to be governed by the rules outlined in Article 11 of our constitution. Under these rules, each Labour Club will be able to send up to four delegates to conference, of which at least two must be self-defining women members, in line with our new constitution."

More internal party politics bollocks whilst the Tories have their wicked way with the nation.

[classycarra]

More internal party politics bollocks whilst the Tories have their wicked way with the nation.

Noone would be paying any attention for this, except it fits the criteria for Corbyn supporters to use it to act like their man is being hard done by, either through being 'unfair' or through conspiracy.

[TheShanklyGates]

Noone would be paying any attention for this, except it fits the criteria for Corbyn supporters to use it to act like their man is being hard done by, either through being 'unfair' or through conspiracy.

Yep. I couldn't give less of a shit about some student committee, I just want a competent opposition party to vote for.

[The Gulleysucker]

Labour Students
 hapless socialist‏ @alistaircraig_

It looked like Corbyn supporters were going to win the Labour Students elections, so they've cancelled them.


STATEMENT FROM NATIONAL COMMITTEE ON LABOUR STUDENTS ELECTIONS

"The fact that we cannot be sure exactly how many Labour Students will be disenfranchised, and the overwhelming majority of our electorate are currently non-students, is staggering."

Labour Students National Committee discussed the next steps of our democracy, and how we can elect a new National Committee before the end of the academic year. We agreed to incorporate the election into a special stand-alone Labour Students Transitional Conference, to be governed by the rules outlined in Article 11 of our constitution. Under these rules, each Labour Club will be able to send up to four delegates to conference, of which at least two must be self-defining women members, in line with our new constitution."

Would that be the one and the same Alistair Craig as this....https://twitter.com/alistaircraig_?lang=en?

....history student. communist. knows all the dance moves to stop making sense.

It is, isn't it?

Do you really believe this sort of utterly juvenile shite?

[Redman0151]

Labour coming out good over the school meals stuff, more of this sort of thing.

And it helps out Torys and shitbags like the s*n as the heartless scumbags they are




Those damn socialists, wanting children fed at schools

[TravisBickle]

When you say "intimidating", is that another anti-JC euphemism for enquiring why yet again, the press are essentially schtum?

 They weren't enquiring about anything, they were telling the NS what to write. To be fair it was only a handful of bellends that turned up but it's telling that an official branch of Momentum would even think of organising such a protest.

 The school meals policy is fucking daft, btw, but if it scores some points then fair enough.

[JohnnoWhite]

They weren't enquiring about anything, they were telling the NS what to write. To be fair it was only a handful of bellends that turned up but it's telling that an official branch of Momentum would even think of organising such a protest.

 The school meals policy is fucking daft, btw, but if it scores some points then fair enough.

The EMBOLDENED phrase is a matter of balance and opinion - as is everything in life of course.

No time at all for what I took to be rather a cynical statement in the underlined comment.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The EMBOLDENED phrase is a matter of balance and opinion - as is everything in life of course.

No time at all for what I took to be rather a cynical statement in the underlined comment.

Your viewpoint is interesting, because it can be argued that the policy for school lunches as announced is the first piece of real politics that Corbyn's team have come up with.

As an actual policy, it has significant flaws. It's not costed through, and the amount raised from private schools in the manner proposed is very unlikely to raise enough money for the headline proposal to work. In that, it could be described as 'fucking daft' because it won't work in government.

However, as politics (particularly opposition politics) it works rather well. It's redistributive, and the majority of the electorate like redistribution when it's from a section of the populace that can be described as 'rich' or 'not them'. (The points made above about the many people who use private education whilst not being remotely rich are valid, but the voter doesn't make this distinction easily). The provision of free school meals is what our American friends would characterise as 'no-one is ever against Mom and Apple pie' - i.e. no one can object to the objective. It puts the Tories on the back foot - they can't argue against the free lunch part without being further heartless, they can't endorse taxing private schools, so they have to think of a valid response - and since they are in government, they have to cost this response. It opens multiple lines of attack for the Opposition - the Tory stance on poverty, the recent benefit changes likely to put many more children into poverty versus Labour's record* in lifting 900,000 out of poverty. Education cuts can be highlighted, with all the research showing that under-nourished children are much less likely to learn well (yet Brexit means we should be investing in 'our own people' surely, prime minister?) The well-off being able to obtain much better education than is available to the majority (and harp on about inequality and tax breaks for the very rich). The unwarranted status of private schools as charities. And so forth.

So it's a proposal that is in effect, a lie, because in government it will be hard to implement as described. But it wins all round as effective politics. Yes, politics is a cynical profession. I would still rather have a government that could implement a policy like this, but compromised by reality, than an opposition party that is too pure to grub around in the matter at hand, to wit, winning power from the Tories.


* I know, I know. Blairite successes are anathema.

[classycarra]

Your viewpoint is interesting, because it can be argued that the policy for school lunches as announced is the first piece of real politics that Corbyn's team have come up with.

As an actual policy, it has significant flaws. It's not costed through, and the amount raised from private schools in the manner proposed is very unlikely to raise enough money for the headline proposal to work. In that, it could be described as 'fucking daft' because it won't work in government.

However, as politics (particularly opposition politics) it works rather well. It's redistributive, and the majority of the electorate like redistribution when it's from a section of the populace that can be described as 'rich' or 'not them'. (The points made above about the many people who use private education whilst not being remotely rich are valid, but the voter doesn't make this distinction easily). The provision of free school meals is what our American friends would characterise as 'no-one is ever against Mom and Apple pie' - i.e. no one can object to the objective. It puts the Tories on the back foot - they can't argue against the free lunch part without being further heartless, they can't endorse taxing private schools, so they have to think of a valid response - and since they are in government, they have to cost this response. It opens multiple lines of attack for the Opposition - the Tory stance on poverty, the recent benefit changes likely to put many more children into poverty versus Labour's record* in lifting 900,000 out of poverty. Education cuts can be highlighted, with all the research showing that under-nourished children are much less likely to learn well (yet Brexit means we should be investing in 'our own people' surely, prime minister?) The well-off being able to obtain much better education than is available to the majority (and harp on about inequality and tax breaks for the very rich). The unwarranted status of private schools as charities. And so forth.

So it's a proposal that is in effect, a lie, because in government it will be hard to implement as described. But it wins all round as effective politics. Yes, politics is a cynical profession. I would still rather have a government that could implement a policy like this, but compromised by reality, than an opposition party that is too pure to grub around in the matter at hand, to wit, winning power from the Tories.


* I know, I know. Blairite successes are anathema.

This is a really good point, and extremely well expressed. Thanks very much for sharing.

[TepidT2O]

Of course it's a matter of opinion but I don't see how you could justify raising all that money from private school fees and then using it to give free meals to kids who's parents could easily afford them anyway. Surely it would be much better to put the resources into schools in deprived areas where resources are tight? Reducing class sizes for example?

 What's wrong with the underlined statement? Jeremy Corbyn and his team are terrible at politics. Even if a policy is well thought out and justified, they never get it across in a way that the public really likes and end up suffering in the polls for it. As the opposition, they don't have to implement their policies, they just have to dislodge the government somehow. If this policy goes some way towards doing that (it won't) then it's fair game.

 Corbyn's statement on US military action in Syria is awful today as well. I mean genuinely awful.

Reducing class sizes doesn't work either...

[TepidT2O]

Politics is pragmatic...

[JohnnoWhite]

Politics is cynical, though, Johnno. It always has been, it always will be and whether we like it or not you have to be cynical to get anywhere. Cameron and Osborne were a pair of cynical bastards, Blair and Mandelson were as cynical as it could possibly be, the current shitshow of a government is the very definition of cynicism (confused cynicism but cynicism nonetheless). If being cynical gets the Tories out and you have to lie a bit along the way then that's absolutely fine by me.

 I just wish Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne had shown some of the cynicism they show in internal disputes to the Tories from day one. And yes, before you mention it, I know the "Blairites" have been equally cynical towards Corbyn. As I say, that's just politics.

 Corbyn's statement was predictable waffle. He may as well just release the same statement every time the issue of military action by the West is raised - he's that dogmatic he'll never change his stance. Bosnia? No! Kosovo? No! Iraq? No! Afghanistan? No! Syria? No! Then the one time he gets it right (accidentally) on Iraq, he's held up as some sort of prophet.

Honest to Christ you lot are infected with the extremely debilitating diarrhoea of pragmaticosis! I fucking KNOW that this traditional version of points-scoring politics in this land is exactly that - had to live through it for 53 adult years of my life! Why you lot don't look at the shit, shite and cacky that this pile of kindergarten crap has brought to our people for generations I seriously don't know! Here's a poser thought. Why not END THIS BOLLOCKS once and for all and tell the ferking truth? So no second or third guesses - the truth first time around.  You are playing the establishment game all the fucking time. Predictable waffle?? Kiss my wrinkled arse!

[TepidT2O]

'You lot'? 

Politics is pragmatic because the world isn't black and white.  Often politicians are trying to pick the least bad option.  Often politicians are trying to deal with people with equally heart felt but utterly conflicting interests..

It's the way the world is, it's the way the world will always be...

[TravisBickle]

Honest to Christ you lot are infected with the extremely debilitating diarrhoea of pragmaticosis! I fucking know that this traditional version of politics in this land is exactly that - why you lot don't look at the shit, shite and cacky that this pile of kindergarten crap has brought to our people for generations I don't know! Here's a poser thought. Why not END THIS BOLLOCKS and tell the ferking truth? So no second or third guesses - the truth first time around.  You are playing the establishment game all the fucking time. Predictable waffle?? Kiss my arse!

So we should just bang our heads against the wall repeatedly in the hope it'll eventually fall down, rather than climb it or go around it. Fair enough.

[classycarra]

Johnno - if you want politicians who tell the truth first time round, I'm afraid Corbyn isn't your man. He's been dishonest and duplicitous throughout his reign as leader of the Labour Party. He's lied about all manner of tihngs big and small, present and past.

You may like to cast your net wide with your 'you lot' jibes about the cynical, but it's fair to say Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott and their cronies are as cynical as anyone else in politics. Just because they are unsuccesful does not mean their brand of cynicism is virtuous

[TepidT2O]

It's the way it is because those that hold this tawdry view prolong the continuing con that "that is how it is".  Break the fucking mould and FFS, stop making me laugh - I've got chapped lips.

It's this way because people don't all agree.  People have differing views, differing opinions, any politician who wishes to ever do anything has to carry the majority of people along with them.

People won't always share your view Johnno... you may think you're right, but lots of people won't....  this is fundamentally why Corbyn is getting smashed in the polls.  He has no ability to carry people with him who don't totally share his opinions...  it is why he is both loved by his supporters and the least popular labour leader ever...

Can I recommend bonjela for your lips by the way.... it's an old remedy round these parts...

[Alan_X]

It's the way it is because those that hold this tawdry view prolong the continuing con that "that is how it is".  Break the fucking mould and FFS, stop making me laugh - I've got chapped lips.

OK Johnno, explain to me how it works. I support Corbyn and then what happens?

You say we shouldn't accept 'how it is' but you constantly bring up the right wing press' antagonism, the moderates in the PLP, the outdated nature of Parliament, the bias of the media and people like Kuennsberg, the lack of socialist conviction among 'us lot', the venality of the Tories... and so on.

Isn't that just complaining about 'how it is?' How exactly is Corbyn 'breaking the mould?' It seems that you and his supporters need everything to be going in his favour and then he'll get elected.

Everyone needs to support him, the right-wing press need to lay off him, the voters all need to dismiss everything they think they see in him and accept your view and Momentum's view of his statesmanlike qualities, the media needs to give him air time without asking awkward questions... and then... then he'll 'break the mould' and lead us all to the socialist paradise...

Sorry mate. I share you ideals in principle and I'm sorry if you think my view of the world is 'tawdry' but I'm not prepared to wait for the planets to align. If Corbyn was a 'mould-breaker' he'd have been doing it already.

[JohnnoWhite]

OK Johnno, explain to me how it works. I support Corbyn and then what happens?

You say we shouldn't accept 'how it is' but you constantly bring up the right wing press' antagonism, the moderates in the PLP, the outdated nature of Parliament, the bias of the media and people like Kuennsberg, the lack of socialist conviction among 'us lot', the venality of the Tories... and so on.

Isn't that just complaining about 'how it is?' How exactly is Corbyn 'breaking the mould?' It seems that you and his supporters need everything to be going in his favour and then he'll get elected.

Everyone needs to support him, the right-wing press need to lay off him, the voters all need to dismiss everything they think they see in him and accept your view and Momentum's view of his statesmanlike qualities, the media needs to give him air time without asking awkward questions... and then... then he'll 'break the mould' and lead us all to the socialist paradise...

Sorry mate. I share you ideals in principle and I'm sorry if you think my view of the world is 'tawdry' but I'm not prepared to wait for the planets to align. If Corbyn was a 'mould-breaker' he'd have been doing it already.

Oh Alan - I'm really saying we - all of us - the voters, the people who are sickened to our stomach by the total
shite that's churned out of Westminster year after balls-aching year, should signal to ALL faker "politicians" we've had one fucking big bellyful of "your game" because WE the ordinary Joes seem ALWAYS to get the butt of the outcome, deliberately side-lined and talked down to by an obtuse and malevolent media who seek to mollify the dirty business that has been perpetrated on us all.

We need to tell the professional politicians who want to fuck with people's lives and destroy communities etc et fucking cetera "why don't you all go and play sixth form politicking and debating games where the outcomes DO NO HARM to REAL PEOPLE?
The more some "students of the game" - too many of us in all truth - re-state - that politics is a pragmatic long-view game and in so doing, prop up the far too long accepted bollocks which has become our accepted version of democracy - then such people who deliver these amateur observations are in fact giving succour to and SUPPORTING the prolongation of the abusive and offensive political concept that passes for our way of government!!

Tell them to shove it until the people are given straight-talking people who will say it as it is - and NOT how these slimy con-merchants believe it has to be said. 

I really gut-believe that amateur "afficionados" and serious, well-meaning interpreters of the dirty business of politicking do more bleeding harm than good. Smoke and mirrors is what we have been and are still being served and I've fucking had a bellyful of it over the best part of 54 dirty stinking adult years of my life, my children's lives and my grandchildren's lives too! Enough with the parlour games.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Oh Alan - I'm really saying we - all of us - the voters, the people who are sickened to our stomach by the total
shite that's churned out of Westminster year after balls-aching year, should signal to ALL faker "politicians" we've had one fucking big bellyful of "your game" because WE the ordinary Joes seem ALWAYS to get the butt of the outcome.

We need to tell the professional politicians who want to fuck with people's lives and destroy communities etc et fucking cetera "why don't you all go and play sixth form politicking and debating games where the outcomes DO NO HARM to REAL PEOPLE?
The more some "students of the game" - too many of us in all truth - re-state - that politics is a pragmatic long-view game and in so doing, prop up the far too long accepted bollocks which has become our accepted version of democracy - then such people ARE SUPPORTING the prolongation of the abusive and offensive political concept!!

Tell them to shove it until the people are given straight-talking people who will say it as it is - and NOT how these slimy con-merchants believe it has to be said. 

I really gut-believe that amateur "afficionados" and serious, well-meaning interpreters of the dirty business of politicking do more bleeding harm than good. Smoke and mirrors is what we are served and I've fucking had a bellyful of it over the best part of 54 dirty stinking years.

Those are all strong words but what is your alternative?

The end of parliamentary democracy? If so what do you propose replacing it with?

[J_Kopite]

Also, and with all due respect Johnno - who are 'the people' or 'real people' and who aren't? Are you saying the voting public don't count? As much as it's distasteful, the British people elected Tories to form a government in 2010 and 2015.

[JohnnoWhite]

Also, and with all due respect Johnno - who are 'the people' or 'real people' and who aren't? Are you saying the voting public don't count? As much as it's distasteful, the British people elected Tories to form a government in 2010 and 2015.

I KNOW they did - and they did it as a consequence of the smoke and mirrors brigade's best efforts. That's exactly my point. The vast majority of professional politicians are at it - not for the people's well-being but for theirs. We - and I mean THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE - get complex explanations of it having to be this way because bollux blah-blah and unintelligible blah-blah bollux - that's how it is. Most of us are lost in the intricacies of what they say are the difficult details of probable legislation etc etc.- and we of course frustrated as fuck, ALLOW them to stick it up us saying it's all too complicated for me etc etc. So we leave it to the professionals - and look where it's got us?

Well let's try a different route to understanding. Speak plainly to the electorate, with a media that reports those details plainly to the electorate and let's douse the fires that create the smoke and smash the mirrors that reflect unreality and let us first challenge and then CHANGE THE WHOLE FACE OF THE SHAM THAT IS OUR PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY!

[Alan_X]

I KNOW they did - and they did it as a consequence of the smoke and mirrors brigade's best efforts. That's exactly my point. The vast majority of professional politicians are at it - not for the people's well-being but for theirs. We - and I mean THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE - get complex explanations of it having to be this way because bollux blah-blah and unintelligible blah-blah bollux - that's how it is. Most of us are lost in the intricacies of what they say are the difficult details of probable legislation etc etc.- and we of course frustrated as fuck, ALLOW them to stick it up us saying it's all too complicated for me etc etc. So we leave it to the professionals - and look where it's got us?

Well let's try a different route to understanding. Speak plainly to the electorate, with a media that reports those details plainly to the electorate and let's douse the fires that create the smoke and smash the mirrors that reflect unreality and let us first challenge and then CHANGE THE WHOLE FACE OF THE SHAM THAT IS OUR PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY!

Sorry mate, I don't want to labour the point, but what's the strategy for getting there? You're telling us all how it should all be different, but what's Corbyn doing to persuade people to stop reading the Mail
& Express (and the Rag), give up on their lifestyle choices and personal politics (small 'p') and convince politicians of all persuasions to undertake a complete overhaul of the political system?

It's like the old joke about the driver asking for directions from a country bumpkin who replies 'well, I wouldn't start from here...'

We are where we are. There's no appetite for the kind of massive political overhaul you're talking about regardless of how much you might want it.

I'd love a perfect world and I'll continue to look for ways to help make it happen. In the meantime I'll do what I can to make our imperfect country better for those who have been left behind.

[JohnnoWhite]

Sorry mate, I don't want to labour the point, but what's the strategy for getting there? You're telling us all how it should all be different, but what's Corbyn doing to persuade people to stop reading the Mail
& Express (and the Rag), give up on their lifestyle choices and personal politics (small 'p') and convince politicians of all persuasions to undertake a complete overhaul of the political system?

It's like the old joke about the driver asking for directions from a country bumpkin who replies 'well, I wouldn't start from here...'

We are where we are. There's no appetite for the kind of massive political overhaul you're talking about regardless of how much you might want it.

I'd love a perfect world and I'll continue to look for ways to help make it happen. In the meantime I'll do what I can to make our imperfect country better for those who have been left behind.

Alan, I'm not preaching a strategy, a philosophy or pushing any formulated agenda. I'm speaking from the gut and from the frustration of tens if not scores of years of being the recipient of pure shite for news instead of access to  intelligible information which was absorbable and translatable. I guess it comes down to my total pissed-offness with being forever talked down to as though the future well-being of me and mine (and indeed the class from which I am proud to say I come) was none of my business. What we have currently may well be what it is but what it is is no longer - if ever it was - fit for purpose.

When faced with that realisation, the nascent urge is to demand that it simply has to change. Simpler language or parodies or parables that give understanding to people who have declared themselves to be politically illiterate might well equip ordinary Joes to get some grasp of the issues at stake when we are invited to exercise our ballot.

If the majority were to declare ourselves truthfully as having, to a greater or lesser extent, some degree of difficulty understanding the complexity of the issues - and the majority of us, if subjected to the famous lie-detector test - would I suggest be found wanting in grasping the minutiae of the policies proposed, then for me, the entire ethos of the democracy game falls. THAT is what I believe is my point of frustration and is at the core of my deep resentment of that great televised game played out daily in the Palace of Westminster.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Alan, I'm not preaching a strategy, a philosophy or pushing any formulated agenda. I'm speaking from the gut and from the frustration of tens if not scores of years of being the recipient of pure shite for news instead of access to  intelligible information which was absorbable and translatable. I guess it comes down to my total pissed-offness with being forever talked down to as though the future well-being of me and mine was none of my business. What we have is no longer - if ever it was - fit for purpose.

When faced with that realisation, the nascent urge is to demand that it simply has to change. Simpler language or parodies or parables that give understanding to people who have declared themselves to be politically illiterate might well equip ordinary Joes to get some grasp of the issues at stake when we are invited to exercise our ballot.

If the majority were to declare ourselves truthfully as having, to a greater or lesser extent, some degree of difficulty understanding the complexity of the issues - and the majority of us, if subjected to the famous lie-detector test - would I suggest be found wanting in grasping the minutiae of the policies proposed, then for me, the entire ethos of the democracy game falls. THAT is what I believe is my point of frustration and is at the core of my deep resentment of that great televised game played out daily in the Palace of Westminster.

The bit in bold - that is what Corbyn is completely failing to achieve. Whether his politics are right or wrong is a moot point if he lacks the capacity to explain them, let alone sell them, to the wider electorate rather than just to the already converted.

[JohnnoWhite]

The bit in bold - that is what Corbyn is completely failing to achieve. Whether his politics are right or wrong is a moot point if he lacks the capacity to explain them, let alone sell them, to the wider electorate rather than just to the already converted.

It isn't only Corbyn who is failing Sammy. The entire population of that house of cards speaks to the people in Elvish. THAT'S my base-line point and I'm sick of it and want to see it changed before I shuffle off this mortal coil.
I would add that the organs of the Establishment, the media and the entire methodology of communication reinforces the mystery of the Elvishisation of the understanding of politics and the political options in and for Britain.

On that happy note I'm pissing off to my bed!! Good night mate!

[SP]

I KNOW they did - and they did it as a consequence of the smoke and mirrors brigade's best efforts. That's exactly my point. The vast majority of professional politicians are at it - not for the people's well-being but for theirs. We - and I mean THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE - get complex explanations of it having to be this way because bollux blah-blah and unintelligible blah-blah bollux - that's how it is. Most of us are lost in the intricacies of what they say are the difficult details of probable legislation etc etc.- and we of course frustrated as fuck, ALLOW them to stick it up us saying it's all too complicated for me etc etc. So we leave it to the professionals - and look where it's got us?

Well let's try a different route to understanding. Speak plainly to the electorate, with a media that reports those details plainly to the electorate and let's douse the fires that create the smoke and smash the mirrors that reflect unreality and let us first challenge and then CHANGE THE WHOLE FACE OF THE SHAM THAT IS OUR PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY!

Drain the swamp?

[youll never walk alone it]

Dont worry johno lad, liverpool as a city still has a good socialist core, hardly any arguing with you on this embarresing  thread are from liverpool, people are just brainwashed by the biased bullshit media, think the word is sheep im looing for.

[Alan_X]

Dont worry johno lad, liverpool as a city still has a good socialist core, hardly any arguing with you on this embarresing  thread are from liverpool, people are just brainwashed by the biased bullshit media, think the word is sheep im looing for.

The no true Liverpool fan fallacy.

I'll have to cancel my subscription to the Mail and Express. Baaaa!!!

[oldfordie]

Dont worry johno lad, liverpool as a city still has a good socialist core, hardly any arguing with you on this embarresing  thread are from liverpool, people are just brainwashed by the biased bullshit media, think the word is sheep im looing for.

The majority of Liverpool are socialists but the majority dont care whose leader as long as Labour win power. there are plenty of people from Liverpool on here who think Corbyn has to go, the old "your not a socialist " bullshit defense will have zero effect on people who see Corbyn for what he is. useless.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The majority of Liverpool are socialists but the majority dont care whose leader as long as Labour win power. there are plenty of people from Liverpool on here who think Corbyn has to go, the old "your not a socialist " bullshit defense will have zero effect on people who see Corbyn for what he is. useless.

yup, besides those who aren't from the city/don't live in the city anymore will at least have gained a perspective on what the rest of the country thinks of the current leader, which is pretty poor

[oldfordie]

yup, besides those who aren't from the city/don't live in the city anymore will at least have gained a perspective on what the rest of the country thinks of the current leader, which is pretty poor

I was speaking to a relative a few days ago. he's in his 30s. we were talking about the Unite vote, asked him if all his m8s at his factory like Corbyn, I expected him to say,yeah a lot do, he seemed more offended and said, no theres only 3 of them. most of us cant stand him.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I was speaking to a relative a few days ago. he's in his 30s. we were talking about the Unite vote, asked him if all his m8s at his factory like Corbyn, I expected him to say,yeah a lot do, he seemed more offended and said, no theres only 3 of them. most of us cant stand him.

most people I know are pretty left leaning and pretty much all thing he's shite, the odd one or two that wanted him first time round wanted him gone after the referendum. The mates of mine who are Tories quite frankly think he's hilarious and the best thing to ever happen for the Tory party, which is hard to argue really.

[oldfordie]

most people I know are pretty left leaning and pretty much all thing he's shite, the odd one or two that wanted him first time round wanted him gone after the referendum. The mates of mine who are Tories quite frankly think he's hilarious and the best thing to ever happen for the Tory party, which is hard to argue really.

Yeah, same here, thing is they talk about Labour and the Torys and the majority vote Labour but they never talk about socialism.