Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 884466 times)

Online TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5480 on: April 6, 2017, 12:52:29 am »
Twat out of Hell perhaps??  ;D ;D ;)
Shit .. missed that one...
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5481 on: April 6, 2017, 01:00:04 am »
.. Avoidable? Could and should have been. 



Absolutely Johnno, Livingstone is a loose cannon.

We saw it the other year when he started talking about a Labour Policy of leaving Nato.

I said it back then in January 2016...

"At the moment it undeniably appears there's an impression of a commotion of lesser chiefs who are out of control talking to the media, from Livingstone, McDonnell and Momentum on the left to the usual suspects on the right.

There's no clear voice, there's no consistent message, there's little evidence of intelligence or careful thought and I believe that's largely why the media are having a field day.

They all need muzzling and kept on a short leash or at least have the decency to self censor themselves until policy is established."


Nothing has changed, no progress has been made and it's thoroughly depressing.

It remains to be seen the damage this will all do to Labour prospects in Gorton. It does have a significant Jewish population.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5482 on: April 6, 2017, 01:08:10 am »
So, did Hitler actually support Zionism?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5483 on: April 6, 2017, 01:08:44 am »
Shit .. missed that one...

Easily done mate - had to think for about 3 seconds meself. . . . :P :P
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5484 on: April 6, 2017, 01:44:29 am »
So, did Hitler actually support Zionism?

I think that's a loaded question KH. Its answer depends on how you choose to define Zionism.

Did the Nazis want rid of their targetted scapegoats for all Germany's perceived ills in 1933? I think ideologically there's no question that they did.
Does that Nazi desire - however disgracefully pernicious and evilly intended - equate to a support of Zionism? In my judgement no it does not.

The Nazis wanted them gone from Germany - to where they didn't much care. I doubt very much Herr Shickelgruber wanted them to ever possess a homeland where they could be free to pursue self-determination as a nation. The Haavara Agreement was a convenient vehicle to get them gone from Germany.
I cannot ever accept that there was the slightest hint of good wishes for a self-determining future being at the heart of Hitler's Nazis.
So to answer as best I can KH, based on the prevailing evidence of history, the answer, I have concluded, is a definite NO.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5485 on: April 6, 2017, 02:19:47 am »
So, did Hitler actually support Zionism?

The difficulty lies in the fact that at a cursory and very simplistic level of examination, the Nazi's had a bewildering number of often apparently totally conflicting local policies that varied throughout their reign.

For example, in the Polish Gau, one section of the SS was busy killing Jews, while another section of the SS wanted Jews kept alive for SS owned factory labour. This led to tremendous antagonism between different parts of the SS.

And within the Waffen SS, Aryan racial purity was deemed all important, that is until manpower started to run short and people from races considered Untermensch were enthusiastically recruited and even Muslim battalions were formed.

So it's possible at a shallow and inconsidered level to be somewhat selective and quote just one such small detail in order to attempt to support and validate a contrary but holistic viewpoint about that regime, when really you have to consider the whole thrust of the Nazi evil.

Depending on the stage of their power and conquest, it's probably accurate to simply say that Hitler and his satraps would say and appear to agree to anything in order to appropriate Jewish property and wealth, but it's also undeniable, his ultimate stated objective right from the beginning was always the complete elimination of the Jewish people and those considered Untermensch who had no slave worker value throughout the world.

There is little doubt about this amongst the rational, of which unfortunately Livingstone appears to no longer be a member.

It is all pretty clearly stated in Mein Kampf, published well before he came to power. Only those with an agenda, usually malign and either wishing rehabilitation of the Nazi regime, or those who are antisemite for whatever reason, and sometimes both, seek to obfuscate this by spreading doubts and misinformation about Nazi aims.

In his utter blind hatred of Israel and its disputed Jewish/Zionist 'colonialism', though who honestly knows what goes on inside his head these days, I believe Livingstone is simply being selective in his evidence, (rather like an obtuse holocaust denier would claim the lack of above ground remains of any gas chambers indicates they never existed), and I suspect he is likely on exceptionally shaky ground with his claims and allegations.


I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5486 on: April 6, 2017, 07:13:13 am »
Thanks for the replies. So was it definitely an expellable offence or did Livingstone say anything else?

Online TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5487 on: April 6, 2017, 09:02:14 am »
Thanks for the replies. So was it definitely an expellable offence or did Livingstone say anything else?
It's an argument that is commonly used by antisemites and holocaust deniers and those wishing to attack Jewish people...

That's the problem.. 

And to be honest, it's one of those things where maybe sounding contrite might help... blaming it on Jewish MPs makes it sound as though he might share those views too.

As John McDonell said, these views will not be tolerated in today's Labour Party.

However he seems to have forgotten that he said that now, the useless pile of excretia...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5488 on: April 6, 2017, 09:32:12 am »
The continued resistance to re-frame and rephrase would mean you'd question the motives behind persisting with the claim.

There is a discussion on the hows and whys of how the Nazis arranged for Jewish emigration out of Germany (the driving force behind policy). But you'd have to be a moron or a dickhead to not also place that in the context of tens of thousands of people fleeing violence, the threats of violence, increasing attacks upon their civil liberties and the financial burdens the Nazis placed upon them. The Nazis supported Zionism in the same way Assad supports the UN. They create the conditions for people to flee and the other party has an interest in trying to give a safe harbour for those escaping.
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Online TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5489 on: April 6, 2017, 09:34:23 am »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39504339

Now this seems like a popular policy... charge VAT on private school fees.....about £1.5bn....

However, I can't help but think that using it to pay for free school meals for all primary age children is an enormous waste of money...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5490 on: April 6, 2017, 09:57:35 am »
The difficulty lies in the fact that at a cursory and very simplistic level of examination, the Nazi's had a bewildering number of often apparently totally conflicting local policies that varied throughout their reign.

For example, in the Polish Gau, one section of the SS was busy killing Jews, while another section of the SS wanted Jews kept alive for SS owned factory labour. This led to tremendous antagonism between different parts of the SS.

And within the Waffen SS, Aryan racial purity was deemed all important, that is until manpower started to run short and people from races considered Untermensch were enthusiastically recruited and even Muslim battalions were formed.

So it's possible at a shallow and inconsidered level to be somewhat selective and quote just one such small detail in order to attempt to support and validate a contrary but holistic viewpoint about that regime, when really you have to consider the whole thrust of the Nazi evil.

Depending on the stage of their power and conquest, it's probably accurate to simply say that Hitler and his satraps would say and appear to agree to anything in order to appropriate Jewish property and wealth, but it's also undeniable, his ultimate stated objective right from the beginning was always the complete elimination of the Jewish people and those considered Untermensch who had no slave worker value throughout the world.

There is little doubt about this amongst the rational, of which unfortunately Livingstone appears to no longer be a member.

It is all pretty clearly stated in Mein Kampf, published well before he came to power. Only those with an agenda, usually malign and either wishing rehabilitation of the Nazi regime, or those who are antisemite for whatever reason, and sometimes both, seek to obfuscate this by spreading doubts and misinformation about Nazi aims.

In his utter blind hatred of Israel and its disputed Jewish/Zionist 'colonialism', though who honestly knows what goes on inside his head these days, I believe Livingstone is simply being selective in his evidence, (rather like an obtuse holocaust denier would claim the lack of above ground remains of any gas chambers indicates they never existed), and I suspect he is likely on exceptionally shaky ground with his claims and allegations.

Nicely put as ever Nick. The obvious problem is not the nitpicking over whether Hitler and Zionists had some shared interest in the creation of Israel so that Jews could go there. It's the fundamental reasons for those views.

The Zionists wanted to create Israel as a homeland and a place of safety after centuries of prejudice, expulsion and death.

Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany. Transportation to Israel was an option but it had nothing to do with compassion or thoughts of a place of safety. It was about creating an absence of Jews and as history showed, the eventual solution was to murder millions.

Livingstone knows that Hitler wasn't a Zionist. He is just being deliberately provocative.
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Offline liversaint

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5491 on: April 6, 2017, 10:08:01 am »
I would do anything for Corbz, but I won't do that...


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There is another option. Mr Ferguson organises the fixtures in his office and sends it to us and everyone will know and cannot complain. That is simple.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5492 on: April 6, 2017, 10:24:12 am »
I think you could be right - and sadly, very much of this whole shebang has been contrived. I do think history is rather on Livingstone's side here. But the fall-out from his continuing to say that fact infuriates some of the immovable Jewish members.  Outcome? A fairly major disaster. Avoidable? Could and should have been. 


I'm not Jewish, but yes xenophobic baiting of Jewish people (Labour or not) does infuriate me. Livingstone is a nasty piece of work, a typical bully, who then uses his vast amounts of money and expensive legal team to scare people away from challenging him. I don't think you need to be Jewish to understand the desire to challenge xenophobic bullies.

The way it was avoidable was for Livingstone to be less of a c*nt - but his history of baiting the Jewish community goes back decades[https://twitter.com/AaronPSimons/status/849176300610883584]. Unfortunately many on the far left share this disgusting trait.


Online TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5493 on: April 6, 2017, 10:27:28 am »
This Facebook post from David Baddiel explains the problem with the Ken issue in wonderful detail...

https://m.facebook.com/david.baddiel.1/posts/10155426143839505?pnref=story

I don't seem to be able to copy it, so if someone else could I would be very grateful.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5494 on: April 6, 2017, 10:34:24 am »
This Facebook post from David Baddiel explains the problem with the Ken issue in wonderful detail...

https://m.facebook.com/david.baddiel.1/posts/10155426143839505?pnref=story

I don't seem to be able to copy it, so if someone else could I would be very grateful.

That's a good post from Baddiel. Thank you for sharing (also couldn't copy, sorry)

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5495 on: April 6, 2017, 10:34:28 am »
This Facebook post from David Baddiel explains the problem with the Ken issue in wonderful detail...

https://m.facebook.com/david.baddiel.1/posts/10155426143839505?pnref=story

I don't seem to be able to copy it, so if someone else could I would be very grateful.

David Baddiel's post:


I normally, as you know, post stuff on Twitter. But Twitter doesn’t give enough space for this. So. Ken. Here is the problem with what Livingstone said. Because a lot of people – the good people, of course, of the British Left – have been tweeting me to tell me that Ken just “stated a fact.”

Ken Livingstone did not state a fact. The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, which is that, in the 30s, the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back once in Palestine. So that is not Adolf Hitler supporting the idea of a Jewish state (even writing that sounds ridiculous). It is the Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees, so as to get more of them to leave more quickly. It is just the thin edge of the wedge of Nazi horror. And the real problem, in a way, is the tone, of Livingstone, when giving this interpretation. There’s no sympathy. No compassion – no sense of the tragedy behind this. It’s just complacently presented as a deal, that Hitler made with German Zionists, and therefore – and this of course is the point, the banal, shit point – a way of consolidating that Zionism is bad. Through an association with the top bad thing, Hitler.

What’s weird here is I am not, as some of you may know, a Zionist. I’m an atheist and I don’t hold with religion being the basis for statehood. And obviously, as all Jews have to say now, when talking about this fucking subject, I do not support the appalling actions of the present Israeli government.

Mainly, in truth, though, I don’t care that much about Israel. I think, in fact, that it is anti-Semitic to assume that I have to care, or think about, or have a position on Israel, a country that, in the words of Morrissey, says nothing to me about my life. I don’t even think it’s a very Jewish place. In The Infidel, my film, a character whilst describing various types of Jews, says “And then Israelis – Jews without angst, without guilt – so not really Jews at all.”

But: I do care about anti-Semitism. And the problem is that an awful lot of anti-Semites – often unconsciously – do conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Indeed, they often just conflate Israelis with Jews. Yesterday on Twitter, a chap called Kenard wrote to me that:

Ken is an irrelevance with little influence, unlike a large number of Israeli's who dominate the media and have done for decades.


It’s clear, isn’t it, that Kenard really wants to say: Jews. But because he has a vague awareness that that isn’t allowed any more, he just substitutes the word Israelis. Or Israeli’s, because he doesn’t understand grammar as well as racism.

So that’s the problem with Ken Livingstone’s statement. The interchangeability of the words Zionist with the word Jew means that in saying Zionism Is Bad, which is what Livingstone wants to do, he emboldens Kenard, and all those like him. And, of course, he also, as I’ve said many times, reveals that sense that runs deep in the Left, that the Jews don’t quite fit into the category of The Oppressed, and so therefore don’t deserve the same protections and sympathy as other minorities in the face of racism against them. Livingstone himself has said this in the creepingly insinuating comment that anti-Semitism and racism are “not exactly the same thing”.

Anyway. Facebook provides too much space, really, for all this. I’ll leave with the words, shall I, of Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, before he went mad, of course, according to Ken. So exactly in that period when he was, as we know, supporting Zionism. This is what Adolf said in there. I may have as much of a tin ear for meaning as Ken has for anti-Semitism, but I can’t, for the life of me, make this out to be as pro the idea of the creation of a Jewish state as Livingstone insists it is:

“While the Zionists try to make the rest of the World believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindler, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks."

Thanks for reading. D
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5496 on: April 6, 2017, 11:07:33 am »
Cheers


I thought it was a terrific article.. Nails Ken's utter nastiness on the issue..
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5497 on: April 6, 2017, 12:36:43 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39504339

Now this seems like a popular policy... charge VAT on private school fees.....about £1.5bn....

However, I can't help but think that using it to pay for free school meals for all primary age children is an enormous waste of money...

It's lazy politics though isn't it? Just assumes that everyone who sends their kid(s) to a private school is wealthy when the reality is a lot more complex. Also assumes that all recipients of this will be in poverty or on low incomes which isn't the case either.

Also ignores the fact that the parents who send their kids to independent school are effectively paying twice, once through taxation and again through school fees.

You'll end up with a situation where a family on a middle income who are making sacrifices to send their kid(s) to an independent school for whatever reason, perhaps getting a bursary or scholarship to help with it, will pay extra so that the child of a millionaire who attends a state primary school can have a free dinner.

What happens if this causes a fair number of the 600,000 or so kids who go to independent schools or would have gone to them go to the state sector instead? The government has to find around £4k per place and they'll also require their free dinner but there won't be the money to pay for it.

Giving every child a free school meal is a great idea but they've picked on the wrong target to pay for it.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5498 on: April 6, 2017, 12:56:04 pm »
The idea is good and it plays out well but I think parents would prefer the money spent elsewhere in schooling.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5499 on: April 6, 2017, 01:12:16 pm »
It's lazy politics though isn't it? Just assumes that everyone who sends their kid(s) to a private school is wealthy when the reality is a lot more complex. Also assumes that all recipients of this will be in poverty or on low incomes which isn't the case either.

Also ignores the fact that the parents who send their kids to independent school are effectively paying twice, once through taxation and again through school fees.

You'll end up with a situation where a family on a middle income who are making sacrifices to send their kid(s) to an independent school for whatever reason, perhaps getting a bursary or scholarship to help with it, will pay extra so that the child of a millionaire who attends a state primary school can have a free dinner.

What happens if this causes a fair number of the 600,000 or so kids who go to independent schools or would have gone to them go to the state sector instead? The government has to find around £4k per place and they'll also require their free dinner but there won't be the money to pay for it.

Giving every child a free school meal is a great idea but they've picked on the wrong target to pay for it.
I don't agree... it's not a bad target.. however...

There will be a consequence... Many kids will be forced out of private education putting more of a strain on the system...

 It fundamentally it's just a bad use of the money.  Pay for breakfast lunch and tea for poorer odd.. THATS a good use of the money.  Free lunches for all kids?  Essentially you will be subsidizing the middle classes who don't need it.

It's ill thought out and will of course never happen
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5500 on: April 6, 2017, 01:21:04 pm »
I don't agree... it's not a bad target.. however...

There will be a consequence... Many kids will be forced out of private education putting more of a strain on the system...

 It fundamentally it's just a bad use of the money.  Pay for breakfast lunch and tea for poorer odd.. THATS a good use of the money.  Free lunches for all kids?  Essentially you will be subsidizing the middle classes who don't need it.

It's ill thought out and will of course never happen
Yeah, means-testing for free meals would be a better use, though it depends how much the means-testing itself would actually cost too.  Ensuring schools could provide two meals (breakfast and lunch) would be a better use too, though tea could be a strain on canteen workers in schools so more money would be needed for their budgets too.

As someone who grew up on a council estate and grew up on free school lunches and milk they were a godsend for those like my mum feeding three kids, I imagine had breakfast been included we'd have been packed off to school sooner to take advantage of it, her knowing at least we were well fed for the day rather than half a piece of toast some mornings.
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Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5501 on: April 6, 2017, 01:29:55 pm »
I think part of the thinking behind it is to end the means-testing. I'm sure I've read somewhere that those who qualify for free meals don't always apply for them because of the perceived stigma attached to being on free school meals.

Giving everyone a free meal ends that but it also means that free meals are provided to those parents who can easily afford it, paid for by those who are assumed to be able to afford it just because they send their children to an independent school.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5502 on: April 6, 2017, 01:38:11 pm »
I think part of the thinking behind it is to end the means-testing. I'm sure I've read somewhere that those who qualify for free meals don't always apply for them because of the perceived stigma attached to being on free school meals.

Giving everyone a free meal ends that but it also means that free meals are provided to those parents who can easily afford it, paid for by those who are assumed to be able to afford it just because they send their children to an independent school.
£700m on that though... what a waste..

Those who don't apply for free school meals are usually the least deprived...

Target money at those who need it most...
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5503 on: April 6, 2017, 01:41:36 pm »
£700m on that though... what a waste..

Those who don't apply for free school meals are usually the least deprived...

Target money at those who need it most...

Not according to what I read (or what I think I read  ;D ), it depends on the school and the peer pressure etc, even some of those who qualify and who need it most don't apply because they don't want to be singled out.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5504 on: April 6, 2017, 01:59:06 pm »
Not according to what I read (or what I think I read  ;D ), it depends on the school and the peer pressure etc, even some of those who qualify and who need it most don't apply because they don't want to be singled out.
In general those who don't apply are those only just qualify..(although obviously that's difficult to qualify ).

Here is no stigma about it, its very sad people still think that ..

With cashless catering and fingerprint recognition devices, no one should ever need to feel a stigma about it..

No one would vet know.. what a waste of money...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5505 on: April 6, 2017, 02:02:06 pm »
So, did Hitler actually support Zionism?
He HATED Jews, of course he didn't support Zionism. Ken Livingstone must be living on a different planet if he thinks Hitler supported Zionism.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5506 on: April 6, 2017, 02:07:40 pm »
In general those who don't apply are those only just qualify..(although obviously that's difficult to qualify ).

Here is no stigma about it, its very sad people still think that ..

With cashless catering and fingerprint recognition devices, no one should ever need to feel a stigma about it..

No one would vet know.. what a waste of money...

The policy is also aimed at the children of families who don't qualify for FSM but are still struggling.

I haven't read any details on the proposal but I wonder how this would affect the pupil premium that schools receive for having children on their roll who qualify for FSM? If everyone is on FSM then why would parents disclose their income details to the school to enable the school to claim the funding?

Not sure if this is already an issue with the FSM for reception to year 2.
« Last Edit: April 6, 2017, 02:23:35 pm by Danny Boys Dad »
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5507 on: April 6, 2017, 02:43:19 pm »
Will the wheels for another leadership challenge be set in motion if the upcoming local, and Manchester Gorton by-elections go badly? How many real (not just polls) electoral knockbacks have to be suffered before the "we tried that last year" excuse doesn't wash anymore?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5508 on: April 6, 2017, 03:06:45 pm »
Will the wheels for another leadership challenge be set in motion if the upcoming local, and Manchester Gorton by-elections go badly? How many real (not just polls) electoral knockbacks have to be suffered before the "we tried that last year" excuse doesn't wash anymore?
No, I suspect not.  I think people have realized that it's just fueling the fire.

On the free school meals issue, there are lots of ways we could expand those on free school meals without spending £700m on those who don't need it.

It's an ill thought out policy..
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5509 on: April 6, 2017, 03:11:09 pm »
No, I suspect not.  I think people have realized that it's just fueling the fire.

On the free school meals issue, there are lots of ways we could expand those on free school meals without spending £700m on those who don't need it.

It's an ill thought out policy..

Most definitely. And as per usual from this cabinet, it's one whose (unintended consequences) will probably widen rather than narrow inequalities.

You can tell they're dead chuffed with it though. Just got an email 'from' Angela Raynor talking it up - first email they've sent me in months and months

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5510 on: April 6, 2017, 03:19:01 pm »
Most definitely. And as per usual from this cabinet, it's one whose (unintended consequences) will probably widen rather than narrow inequalities.

You can tell they're dead chuffed with it though. Just got an email 'from' Angela Raynor talking it up - first email they've sent me in months and months

I got that one too
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5511 on: April 6, 2017, 03:20:44 pm »
I think they've blocked me... they offered me a chance to meet John McDonnell and I told them what I thought of the idea..
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5512 on: April 6, 2017, 03:27:56 pm »
Will the wheels for another leadership challenge be set in motion if the upcoming local, and Manchester Gorton by-elections go badly? How many real (not just polls) electoral knockbacks have to be suffered before the "we tried that last year" excuse doesn't wash anymore?

I highly doubt it. The first leadership challenge only strengthened his position within the party. We just have to hope that he is decent enough to step down but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5513 on: April 6, 2017, 06:21:25 pm »
Momentum demonstration outside the New Statesman  :lmao

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/850023319361531904

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5514 on: April 6, 2017, 07:01:37 pm »
The idea is good and it plays out well but I think parents would prefer the money spent elsewhere in schooling.

Spend it on the actual function of the schools itself, educating, IMO.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5515 on: April 6, 2017, 07:20:21 pm »
Momentum demonstration outside the New Statesman  :lmao

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/850023319361531904
what did they do?

It's lazy politics though isn't it? Just assumes that everyone who sends their kid(s) to a private school is wealthy when the reality is a lot more complex. Also assumes that all recipients of this will be in poverty or on low incomes which isn't the case either.

Also ignores the fact that the parents who send their kids to independent school are effectively paying twice, once through taxation and again through school fees.

You'll end up with a situation where a family on a middle income who are making sacrifices to send their kid(s) to an independent school for whatever reason, perhaps getting a bursary or scholarship to help with it, will pay extra so that the child of a millionaire who attends a state primary school can have a free dinner.

What happens if this causes a fair number of the 600,000 or so kids who go to independent schools or would have gone to them go to the state sector instead? The government has to find around £4k per place and they'll also require their free dinner but there won't be the money to pay for it.

Giving every child a free school meal is a great idea but they've picked on the wrong target to pay for it.
indeed, spent around 15 years in private education and my parents were pretty much middle class so they weren't millionaires by any means but relatively comfortable with one earning and two kids, however we only did around 4 family trips abroad in that time.

Would say only around 25% or so of the people I went to school with were 'wealthy', the majority were solid middle class (Kids of doctors, solicitors, accountants), kids of small to medium sized business owners and there were quite a few from 'working class' backgrounds who's parents took on an extra job to pay for the school fees, so that policy would likely shift a lot of the kids getting a better standard of education privately back to the state, a decent chunk of the middle classes back to state schools and making private schools even more about rich kids.

Probably the smart idea would be to do this for boarding schools instead? Then again they don't really seem to be smart...

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5516 on: April 6, 2017, 07:25:30 pm »
Momentum demonstration outside the New Statesman  :lmao

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/850023319361531904

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We want equal coverage...
When do we want it?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5517 on: April 6, 2017, 07:28:26 pm »
what did they do?
indeed, spent around 15 years in private education and my parents were pretty much middle class so they weren't millionaires by any means but relatively comfortable with one earning and two kids, however we only did around 4 family trips abroad in that time.

Would say only around 25% or so of the people I went to school with were 'wealthy', the majority were solid middle class (Kids of doctors, solicitors, accountants), kids of small to medium sized business owners and there were quite a few from 'working class' backgrounds who's parents took on an extra job to pay for the school fees, so that policy would likely shift a lot of the kids getting a better standard of education privately back to the state, a decent chunk of the middle classes back to state schools and making private schools even more about rich kids.

Probably the smart idea would be to do this for boarding schools instead? Then again they don't really seem to be smart...
And that's full of pitfalls too...

There are state boarding schools for a start...

And many kids who go to boarding schools are forced kids or diplomats kids who can't easily follow there parents around the world..

Anyway.. in principle I don't thing the VAT is the worst idea.. but I would like to see projections of the numbers of kids who would drop back into the state sector as a result to, ensure it was actually not going to fincacially backfire..

And I would spend the money on something completely different..
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5518 on: April 6, 2017, 07:40:10 pm »
Momentum now intimidating journalists for not covering Jeremy Corbyn favourably enough. Genuinely.
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5519 on: April 6, 2017, 07:47:20 pm »
Momentum now intimidating journalists for not covering Jeremy Corbyn favourably enough. Genuinely.
wouldnt say that protest is intimidating the new statesman, he probably finds it hilarious that they think they should get 30 pages to say what they want. Should just tell them to fuck off and just read the morning star.

Anyway.. in principle I don't thing the VAT is the worst idea.. but I would like to see projections of the numbers of kids who would drop back into the state sector as a result to, ensure it was actually not going to fincacially backfire..
i doubt they know how to make projections, like the brexit lot on the far right they're somewhat effective at having a go but fucking useless when it comes to real world things like details