Topic: Southampton Round Table

[Draex]

Doesn't anyone worry about Rodgers comments? He basically blames the team for not pressing from the front, yet it was his tactical niavity that caused that..

Allen and playing him as the defensive midfielder is his complete blindspot and I find it very worrying he cannot see it - there is zero talk of getting backup for Lucas in the summer, it's the key area if we are going to play Gerrard.. Allen and Gerrard cannot play together as a 2 - as we've seen multiple times, yet we continue to see it fail time and time again.

Whilst I'm not an advocate of laying into the back room staff or their credentials as I don't think thats' relevant, but I do wonder if Rodgers has got the right type of men (Marsh/Pascoe) around him who don't question his judgement/tactics or selection - I'm sure someone like Clarke would of quickly pointed out the huge holes in playing 4231 with Allen and Gerrard, and the massive issues we have when a team goes through the middle via a target man. No-one is perfect and we aren't seeing improvement on 2 glaring issues in our play, that to me says Rodgers is blind to it and no-one around him is telling him otherwise..

[Torpedo Tommy]

Very disappointing.  Not because of the loss and because of the way we lost but because of the decisions and the drivers behind the decisions which caused the loss.

Take Reina, Carra and Lucas out of the team and the whole defensive spine is gone.  Rodgers came out afterwards and confirmed that we are a team that aren't progressed enough to okay badly and win.  Very true - because we are a club that aren't in the position to make unnecessary changes and expect to win.  Our squad simply isn't strong enough.

Doubts have quite rightly surrounded Allen.  Since October his form has been average to say the least.  Maybe the injured shoulder explains this but it still goes no way to explaining why he started in front of Lucas if he needs surgery.  With Carra and Reina out the team that decision cannot be discussed as one in hindsight.  Pure and simple lunacy - did Joe Allen no favours and did Liverpool Football Club even less.

Can't pick anyone out that had a fantastic game so feel a bit shit on singling out people here but really what is wrong with Glen Johnson?  Seems so indecisive without the ball but just as much so with it too.  Skrtel seemed rusty and questions remain about Gerrard in a CM role when his partner lacks positional discipline.  Same old same old....

Let injuries or scoreline be the only reasons we change the team for the last 8 games.  Lets respect the likes of Reading away and QPR at home just as much as we will Everton and Chelsea at home.  The lads can rest when they jet off to Dubai or the Bahamas in June. 

Hope this acts as an 8 game kick up the arse for the team and Rodgers - not 3 or 4.  The honeymoon is now over and the problem of consistency needs tackling now - not this time next season.

[Thog]

Doesn't anyone worry about Rodgers comments? He basically blames the team for not pressing from the front, yet it was his tactical niavity that caused that..

Allen and playing him as the defensive midfielder is his complete blindspot and I find it very worrying he cannot see it - there is zero talk of getting backup for Lucas in the summer, it's the key area if we are going to play Gerrard.. Allen and Gerrard cannot play together as a 2 - as we've seen multiple times, yet we continue to see it fail time and time again.

Whilst I'm not an advocate of laying into the back room staff or their credentials as I don't think thats' relevant, but I do wonder if Rodgers has got the right type of men (Marsh/Pascoe) around him who don't question his judgement/tactics or selection - I'm sure someone like Clarke would of quickly pointed out the huge holes in playing 4231 with Allen and Gerrard, and the massive issues we have when a team goes through the middle via a target man. No-one is perfect and we aren't seeing improvement on 2 glaring issues in our play, that to me says Rodgers is blind to it and no-one around him is telling him otherwise..

I do think we need better staff working with Rodgers but we played 4-4-2 last season away from home with Gerrard and Adam in the middle and Bolton went through our middle with ease. Clarke didn't do or say anything or we would have went with 4-3-3 to begin with, the formation didn't even change during the match when it was clearly failing. That game was very similar to this one. Kenny blamed the players as did everyone on here after the game when it was really down to the line up. But it's Kenny, so it's cool right? Rodgers making the same mistakes though, well he can fuck off.

[Hinesy]

Funny this sort of line, due to the fact that if everyone's opinion was correct, we'd need an entire new team and squad.

Sometimes you just got to make the best of what you have and thats something of a bitter piil I think we will all have to swallow come the start of next season.

Amen brother

[Cid]

We haven't replaced masch or Alonso since they left.  Allen is dreadful, and also injured...Henderson is for some reason unfancied.  Gerrard plus Lucas is our strongest two but it's ridiculous to be playing a 424 anyway.  Spurs battered us and the manager clearly didn't learn from that. 

We need a proper defensive mid.  If Xabi is available in summer we should move mountains to bring him back.  Even someone like tiote would make a difference for us.

Tend to think we should be looking for a better right back too.  No point buying a commanding cb if glen carries on letting people go at the back post. 

[SwissV]

Doesn't anyone worry about Rodgers comments? He basically blames the team for not pressing from the front, yet it was his tactical niavity that caused that..

Allen and playing him as the defensive midfielder is his complete blindspot and I find it very worrying he cannot see it - there is zero talk of getting backup for Lucas in the summer, it's the key area if we are going to play Gerrard.. Allen and Gerrard cannot play together as a 2 - as we've seen multiple times, yet we continue to see it fail time and time again.

Whilst I'm not an advocate of laying into the back room staff or their credentials as I don't think thats' relevant, but I do wonder if Rodgers has got the right type of men (Marsh/Pascoe) around him who don't question his judgement/tactics or selection - I'm sure someone like Clarke would of quickly pointed out the huge holes in playing 4231 with Allen and Gerrard, and the massive issues we have when a team goes through the middle via a target man. No-one is perfect and we aren't seeing improvement on 2 glaring issues in our play, that to me says Rodgers is blind to it and no-one around him is telling him otherwise..

I actually agree with Rodgers comments. The team was set up in a very attacking formation. Had we pressed from the front we would have had Southampton on the backfoot. Basically because we were set up in such an attacking formation & werent attacking we were left with a lot of gaps & ripped to shreds. Had we pressed we wouldve forced them into playing long balls to clear it & us picking it up in defence & attacking again. Instead we were the ones playing like that.

[Cid]

I do think we need better staff working with Rodgers but we played 4-4-2 last season away from home with Gerrard and Adam in the middle and Bolton went through our middle with ease. Clarke didn't do or say anything or we would have went with 4-3-3 to begin with, the formation didn't even change during the match when it was clearly failing. That game was very similar to this one. Kenny blamed the players as did everyone on here after the game when it was really down to the line up. But it's Kenny, so it's cool right? Rodgers making the same mistakes though, well he can fuck off.

Kenny was forced to use Adam as a defensive mid because Lucas was injured for large parts of the season.  To have Lucas available and play a struggling lad with a shoulder injury instead was a massive cock up.  I'd like to see decisions made for the good of the club, and I can't help but feel this was Rodgers trying to prove a point.  Well the egg is on his face and as much as the players struggled, its he who cost us.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

First of all, congratulations to Southampton -

I don't understand the lack of common sense we have witnessed in recent times with our team.

Fine - we want to swop our £35 mil striker for someone more mobile - why not actually sign the replacement first before we let our record signing leave for another club?

We want to rest our important players for the next game why not start them and substitute them after the game is won rather than bringing them on to chase a result we end up missing anyway?

We want to play an attacking system with 2 in central midfield - fine - why not start with 3 and change when the game is won?

Added to which - Gerrard is not a good captain. It's all well and good to lead by example but as a captain you have to try and ensure the rest of the team will die for the cause when you have an off day. Too many times we have witnessed a lack of effort not to mention game intelligence under the present captaincy. Viera, Keane or Terry would have torn that team a new ******* if they put in an effort like that against Southampton. Sad fact is we have seen that kind of capitulation too many times for it to be a surprise any more.

There's no point analysing tactics or even the lineup when those players have put in such a shambolic effort. Someone pointed out above that the fans only ever ask for total commitment to the cause. For me that's the real reason why Suarez is the first name on the teamsheet. Doesn't matter what level of skill you have, effort and commitment should be the first consideration when picking the team.

[DanA]

I don't believe the team put in any less effort this game. The effort was just poorly channelled.

[jckliew]

Its getting pretty obvious that Brendan is blind to the fact about the abilities of Joe Allen.
How may time does the guy have to play DM before Brendan sees the shortfall?

We could have been 5 goals down by half time.....there was total isolation of the forwards
from our TWO midfielders.

Yet, he did not ring in the changes before half time.....

Naivety shews much..........

[Free Kuyt]

I know there's been a lot of focus on the Allen / Lucas / Henderson midfield balance (or lack of), but I thought a lot of our problems started with Brad Jones.

At the start of the season BR was asked how his Swansea side had coped with being pressed really high up the pitch. And he said the keeper had to be ready to play a pass out beyond the pressing players to cut them out of the game and then turn and attack. Over time the threat of overloading them forces the opposition to drop deeper, which then gives you space to play.

It might be a sound theory. We often had Skrtel, Agger and Enrique being penned in by four or five Southampton players. The ball goes back to Jones. At that point at least one of Downing, Coutinho, Gerrard, Allen, Suarez or Sturridge - and possibly two - have to be in space. They have to be.

How many times did Jones find a Liverpool shirt with a decent pass? Twice I think, one sliced out to the touchline which Johnson had to scramble to keep in, and one pretty tidy ball out to Lucas in the second half when under pressure. But that was it. The rest of the time it was a hopeful kick upfield and, generally, we lost possession.

The high pressing game was allowed to work against us because we didn't have the quality to pick our way through it and expose the weaknesses it involves. The keeper is supposed to have a pivotal role in providing that quality - again BR said when in possession he's another outfield player - and we didn't have it on the day.

We looked okay in the final third - it was the only area of the pitch where we could establish decent possession. But getting it there was a disaster and, for me, that problem started between the sticks.

I'm not saying we were impressive elsewhere. Allen and Skrtel both seemed well off the pace - and Johnson, often a model of excellence, had an absolute mare - but given we were being pressed high and given what BR's stated idea is to counter that, I thought Jones ceded possession far to easily and far too often. If Pepe had played like that he'd be hung out to dry.

[redbyrdz]

We have a young manager and a young team, inconsistency is to be expected.

We haven't really done anything different than all season. Everyone knows that the defensive half of our game plan is a good as non existent, and that you can run through our midfield at will. If we go a goal up early, we'll keep the ball up the pitch, where we're very good, and we'll probably win by a couple. When we go a goal done we lack the strength in midfield to win possession back.

How often have we come back from being down all season? 2-3 times maybe? People say we did it against Zenit, but thats a game where we spend the best of two weeks getting the mentality right - hailing the famous European nights at Anfield, manger and captain asking the fans to help them, true back-to-the-wall spirit. We could do with a bit of that in every game.

As for the team selection, no idea why Allen started and not Lucas. Even if Lucas wasn't 100%, and Allen is injured, surely the better way would've been to start Lucas and bring Allen on. And maybe, just because they're both not fully fit, play Henderson as well to give them a bit more protection. That being said, Henderson instead of Allen would've probably helped as well.

Jones looks a bit slow to me, especially in starting attacks. He's great on the line, but we could do with someone with a more similar style to Reina, imo.


Positives? Coutinho looked great when he drifted into the middle for the last minutes. Not that he's bad on the left, but he might really just be what we need.


As for new signings? I don't really know, because we seem unlikely to drop or even rest some of the players that could do with rotating. And we rotate some that should really play more frequently. I can't even say 'cover for Lucas', because Lucas doesn't seem to be first choice anymore.

[J-Mc-]

*snip*

I don't think the blame can be laid squarely at Jones' feet, I do get what you're saying but it's difficult to turn a goalkeeper into another outfield player when that goalkeeper isn't allowed the gametime to develop that side of his play, it was the same with Pepe earlier in the season.

The problem for me was there seemed to be a lack of effort from all bar Coutinho and Allen when we lost possession, at one point during (i think) the first half, i watched Suarez playing left back with Enrique holding position pretty much by the half way line after getting up the wing to get a cross in!

I watched Gerrard jog around their 18 yard box because the pass had gone slightly passed him, I saw Johnson, Downing and Sturridge all shrug their shoulders because we'd lost possession when only a week before, these very same players all burst a gut trying to get that ball back into their feet.

There was a severe lack of drive in that team on Saturday, Allen was crowded out so it was no suprise he couldn't anything when he got on the ball, early in the first half he had two around him with Downing standing watching from behind, about 10 yards away when he should have been in there giving the easy option with Johnson ready to pounce on any loose ball.

we underestimated them incredibly, we turned up thinking it'd be a walk in the park and they sensed it from the off, we were outplayed and fair play to Southampton, they didn't let up for a second.

Hope BR gave them a bollocking to be honest but i'm not holding my breath on that, we need to look to the next game to rectify things, and there's a lot that needs rectifying.

[PhaseOfPlay]

The problem wasn't the two in the middle. You can play 4-4-2/4-2-4 and make adjustments to cope with a 5 in midfield. The problem wasn't Rodgers not changing things in the middle of the first half, because you can only do that once or twice before players will lose faith in you. The problem wasn't starting Lucas and bringing him off, because if he felt a twinge in the warm-up, without the medical staff monitoring it, it could have been much worse. Rodgers made a mistake of emphasis in this game, and he is certainly not blameless. Some people are talking like it's been every game, though, rather than a small handful. The team and players that made City look like chumps in their own home ground should be able to attack a Southampton side facing relegation until recently. There was a serious loss of intelligence and effort in key areas of the team. There was a clear delineation between who considered themselves attackers and who considered themselves defenders. And Gerrard showed in the 3rd goal the worst side of his game, not seen since Arsenal at home - failure to track back when the ball goes by him.

There is still a lot to sort out. But one game doesn't define the season, or Rodgers as a manager, or the team's progress as a whole. Those who seem to think it does, should be very upfront about their experiences in football management, because it's easy to say what you would have done from the comfort of your computer without the experience to back it up. It's clear on these threads the past day or so who has experience in the game and who hasn't. There's more to football than pressing "X" or "Triangle button", and a few posters would do well to understand that before slating the manager after every loss.

[over the line an far away]

Had a massive in depth analysis of what's wrong, whats not and how to change it but just deleted it by accident and cant be arsed to write it all again so basically it was along these lines....
Glen Johnson is a top top player and we're lucky to have him so stop fucking moaning.
Martin Skrtel is false advertising if ever ive seen it.... shaved head, tattoos... scared of his own fucking shadow. Embarrassing.
Joe Allen is...... well, there must be a dna test somewhere that connects him with Brendan Rodgers cos there is no other explanation as to how he's not only nicked a move to Liverpool but is actually favoured ahead of Henderson. Even Jay Spearing must be sat at the reebok thinkin "Is he serious".
We DESPERATELY need a "Momo" type monster in this squad precisely for games like this. When did u last see 1 of our players commit a cynical foul to stop a counter attack?! It doesnt happen, we just let people run away from us and usually end up conceding. Both Lucas and Skrtel should of stopped Rodriguez about 20 yards further out on saturday and taken a booking for it.
Sturridge although talented is fucking lazy and needs to press from the front, we either press as a unit or not at all because otherwise we'll get picked off. I feel sorry 4 luis.
If we can sort out the way we get bullied by teams though, with Luis, Sturridge, Coutinho, Gerrard there is enough quality there to see us continue to progress overall. Just hope Brendan can address these issues in the summer and is given the backing to do so.

[n00bert]

My take on the game was that Southampton just applied themselves better. Everything they sent up the field stuck but whether this should be a criticism of our defenders or praise for their forwards is debatable.

From the Liverpool perspective, it was a distinct lack of the abovementioned application and a proper shortage of effort. Mentally it seemed they were not up for the game. I don't think I have personally seen Johnson have such a shocker for us in a long time and that was just a microcosm of our problems through the day. Everyone looked like they couldn't be arsed, except maybe Enrique and (shock, horror) Downing.

Was starting Joe Allen a mistake? I think in hindsight it could be argued that he shouldn't have messed with the Lucas-Gerrard system that was working. That said, Allen has proven that he can play so it's equally surprising that the quality of his performance was so poor. I am not going to criticize Rodgers for starting him, because when the lineups were announced I was confident that Allen could do the job and he could have provided a bit more guile if and when we were camped in the Southampton half.

IMO there is only so much a manager can do. He can lay out the tactics and work on every detail in training but if the players can't get motivated to perform on matchday it can often be for nought. As an example, I haven't seen Suarez so lackluster as he was against Southampton. That's not in itself a criticism against him, he's allowed an off day every so often but it is an example of how mentally most of the team didn't really seem up for it.

I think on a whole there was a lack of intensity from the team. We just stood off, invited them to play measured passes out of the back into the channels and down the middle to the forwards. That's what hurt us throughout the game.

[BreakfastPercy]

The problem wasn't the two in the middle. You can play 4-4-2/4-2-4 and make adjustments to cope with a 5 in midfield. The problem wasn't Rodgers not changing things in the middle of the first half, because you can only do that once or twice before players will lose faith in you. The problem wasn't starting Lucas and bringing him off, because if he felt a twinge in the warm-up, without the medical staff monitoring it, it could have been much worse. Rodgers made a mistake of emphasis in this game, and he is certainly not blameless. Some people are talking like it's been every game, though, rather than a small handful. The team and players that made City look like chumps in their own home ground should be able to attack a Southampton side facing relegation until recently. There was a serious loss of intelligence and effort in key areas of the team. There was a clear delineation between who considered themselves attackers and who considered themselves defenders. And Gerrard showed in the 3rd goal the worst side of his game, not seen since Arsenal at home - failure to track back when the ball goes by him.

There is still a lot to sort out. But one game doesn't define the season, or Rodgers as a manager, or the team's progress as a whole. Those who seem to think it does, should be very upfront about their experiences in football management, because it's easy to say what you would have done from the comfort of your computer without the experience to back it up. It's clear on these threads the past day or so who has experience in the game and who hasn't. There's more to football than pressing "X" or "Triangle button", and a few posters would do well to understand that before slating the manager after every loss.

To be fair the argument that no experience in the game equals no understanding of it is similar to the one levelled at managers like Rodgers who have never played the game, and it doesn't necessarily hold true. I don't think you need to by definition wield the coaching manual against those forming their own judgements.

I think you are less loosely wedded to the notion of formations than your tyical poster PhaseofPlay, but surely you know what people mean when they categorize differences between Henderson tucked in and Coutinho out wide? It's one thing saying you can make adjustements to a 4-2-4 to deal with a five man midfield, but does that mean you should? Do you not think having Coutinho, Downing, Suarez and Sturridge all on the pitch, will Allen and Gerrard behind them, looked- and indeed was- extremely risky away from home? Would you have played that set-up away at a team higher up the league? And in turn does that reflect a lack of respect towards Southampton (or perhaps a misjudgement of their threat)?

I think nearly everybody in the thread is behind Rodgers and believes he largely knows what he's doing, but he cocked it up at the weekend. And whilst it also doesn't define our season, it echoed in a lot of ways issues we've faced all season, and in fact I think we looked on Saturday as far away from a solution to those same problems as we have done all year. Our set-up did not seem like a manager and a team who were adpating and addressing it's weaknesses. I should clarify I do think we are addressing weaknesses and improving, but Saturday's naivety meant it may as well have been the opening game of the season. The performance wasn't massively out of character, but the errors from Rodgers were, and maybe that's what irked people.

[Mingle]

Im really not surprised we lost the game... it’s what we've done all season! Progress followed by a reality check! First 11 maybe 12 are very good but beyond that we aren’t good enough! Same goes for tactics... we seem to go pot when we mix it !!

A new commanding centre half should be priority, but in addition to that, we need a new defensive coach... I can give no names to either, but we look as fragile as we’ve ever been at the back

[Twelfth Man]

snip/

I was going to post something along similar lines. Skimming through this thread there seems to a be a broad consensus that we played a far too cavalier line up, that changes could have been made, perhaps not in personnel but instructions from the side in formation in the 1st half when it was obvious to all, having witnessed similar performances where the team crumbles against aggressive pressing. As you say, it is the recurring nature of the defeats that is troubling. A touch derisive PoP, to suggest you have to be a coach to understand, sure you or the posters who do have that experience will know a great deal more than 99 per cent of us fans but yesterday as in many other defeats this season it was quite clear what was happening and indeed your post w/r/t having two separate LFC teams out there yesterday, the defensive unit and the attacking players essentially playing as two different sides is in broad agreement with pretty much everyone's analysis.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

First, I am a yank from across the bank, my message totals are not many, but I have loved the reds for almost four decades.

Second, this post is not really designed to address tactics, technique, game-day decisions or other complexities leading to argument. I want to discuss the issue of mentality.

Third, it's St. Paddy's in Michigan (20 degrees), and I am watching an ESPN 30 for 30 which deals with one of the greatest master-narratives in sports.  For those of you who are unfamiliar with the story (it is not a football story, but a human story born in Raleigh, North Carolina).  It is about the coaching miracle of Jim Valvano and North Carolina State's Men's Basketball Team in 1983.  It is about dealing with adversity.  It is about a mentality (one LFC is already very familiar with, but may lose sight of from time to time).   It is this mentality point Rogers has brought up on occasion that I want to focus my efforts on.  The unabridged version goes like this:

As a dying man in 1993, Valvano reminds us miracles happen when these four ingredients are present (in life and sports):

1. Hope (an infection of belief)
2. Importance of Dreaming (imagining a better future)
3. Persistence (Do not give up, do not ever give up) 
4. Love (trust, commitment and joy of the journey)

Liverpool's is no stranger to these ideas (Istanbul for instance is perfect example) and this is not intended as an American lecture.  Far fro from it as so many of the qualities that bring me to support Liverpool are already represented.  However, in reading this year's message board after losses West Brom (twice), Aston Villa, Southampton, Zenit etc., some of us lose sight of the winning mentality.  There is bickering, disbelief, indifference, reactivity and an overall addiction to analysis.  Coach Valvano reminds us about the importance of laughing, thinking, and experiencing a significant emotion, "that is a full day".   He might say to us this evening:

It is not that we lose, but that we do not lose hope.
It is not that we are not tired of losing, but that we do not ever give up.
It is not that our dreams are buried, but that old dreams become new ones.
It is not that we pick apart each loss like a carcass, but that we trust/find joy in the process of being reds. 

We can show our hope, aspiration, resilience and love for LFC by remembering it could be a lot worse. 

This is what LFC means to this yank ---->  YNWA

 -  Trend

[PhaseOfPlay]

To be fair the argument that no experience in the game equals no understanding of it is similar to the one levelled at managers like Rodgers who have never played the game, and it doesn't necessarily hold true. I don't think you need to by definition wield the coaching manual against those forming their own judgements.

No, you're right and I know where you are coming from, but at the same time, to say Rodgers never played the game is also incorrect. He didn't play to a high adult level due to injury, but he played. I get the impression from the way some posters react to losses that they've never kicked a ball in anger in their lives, because some of the things they post are just so far outside of what actually happens it's not funny. And it doesn't matter if you played on a serious pub team or have a Champions League medal - being part of a competitive team at any level (and indeed any team sport) will give you an insight into what does and doesn't work in football and competition, and when you know these things, you temper your criticisms a bit more, and put things into more context. There are a lot of posters who do this, and whether I agree with them or not, their posts are interesting to read and give a lot of pause for thought - similarly, though, there are others who are happy to tell us how it SHOULD have been done, without ever having done it themselves at any level at all. It's these people that I rail against. They are usually confined to the post match thread, but some of that sentiment seems to have seeped into this Round Table, which I always felt should be a thread for more considered responses that are objective and constructively critical, rather than a place to postulate outright fabrications of the "we've been crap all season and this game just proved that all those wins were a fluke" variety.

I think you are less loosely wedded to the notion of formations than your tyical poster PhaseofPlay, but surely you know what people mean when they categorize differences between Henderson tucked in and Coutinho out wide? It's one thing saying you can make adjustements to a 4-2-4 to deal with a five man midfield, but does that mean you should? Do you not think having Coutinho, Downing, Suarez and Sturridge all on the pitch, will Allen and Gerrard behind them, looked- and indeed was- extremely risky away from home? Would you have played that set-up away at a team higher up the league? And in turn does that reflect a lack of respect towards Southampton (or perhaps a misjudgement of their threat)?

I think I've stood on my 3-5-2 soapbox often enough to know where I stand Also, I think, as Walshy pointed out, it makes more sense for the players we now have (which was going to be the crux of the "Suarez/Sturridge Problem" part of what I was going to contribute to the RT). Yes, 4-2-4 is vulnerable to a 5 in midfield, but a 4-2-3-1 is essentially a 4-2-4 itself, especially when the "3" go hunting for the ball in a tight pack like Southampton did. It's a case of getting the match-ups right, without compromising your attacking identity. Rodgers failed to do that, but similarly, the players failed to track what needed to be tracked. Both players and manager were culpable, and I think you're right about a lack of, if not respect, then certainly awareness of what they could be capable of.

I think nearly everybody in the thread is behind Rodgers and believes he largely knows what he's doing, but he cocked it up at the weekend. And whilst it also doesn't define our season, it echoed in a lot of ways issues we've faced all season, and in fact I think we looked on Saturday as far away from a solution to those same problems as we have done all year. Our set-up did not seem like a manager and a team who were adpating and addressing it's weaknesses. I should clarify I do think we are addressing weaknesses and improving, but Saturday's naivety meant it may as well have been the opening game of the season. The performance wasn't massively out of character, but the errors from Rodgers were, and maybe that's what irked people.

I can agree with that, certainly. But I do also think there is a near-naked antipathy towards Rodgers from some quarters, and for me that's not right. We've made good strides forward in certain key areas, and we've regressed slightly in others. We are, essentially, a top three attack with a mid-table defence, which is the reverse of last season. Striking the balance is the key, but also allowing the manager in his first season the luxury of learning from his mistakes (this game was certainly a mistake - but he's also got a lot more right) is something that supporters should be doing - seeking to understand why certain things occurred, rather than damn the manager because they occurred. There are a lot of good posters who do that - cautiously question things, and seek the answers. But I get a sense this weekend that there are others who are less willing to question things constructively, and more willing to rail against the manager.

[keyo]

This is a great post by Lanky Guy in the post match thread.

Part of the problem is our seeming inability to recognise when to slow the game down.  Our main defensive approach is to retain possession, but we get into a habit of trying to attack when we get the ball back through direct balls.  This is a useful strategy to have available, as their defence will be unbalanced, but we do it too much and from the wrong positions, it means we give the ball away.

Sometimes, we need to build up a spell of possession, just to take the sting out.

the important part for me in that is that we seem to lack a plan or idea of what we are trying to do in pressing the ball....we are too deep to press the ball effectively, and yet we then try and press it when it is already moving.....gerrard should not be moving to press when he does, suarez should be holding his ground to stop the pass inside, not press the potential pass to the centre back......if we were pressing as a team, we would be doing those things in a more effective a timely way.....but we waste energy and because we are not pressing together, we are no longer compact

this seemed to be the way of the first half, too deep to press effectively, but then pressing when the ball arrived and was ready to be offloaded left us chasing the ball constantly in the first half, and with holes all around

we played poorly as a group, and this no doubt contributed to the lack of cohesion, but the tactics and set up appeared to contribute moreso, and also probably to the individual performance....doubt does not help any player and when you are unsure about what you or your team-mates should be doing, it will impact your performance

saints played well, pressed high up the pitch and kept the tempo up as much as possible, and deserve credit for their performance....but they were, to an extent, only exploiting our weakness on the day

we lacked balance on the day, and i would probably not go much further in looking for reasons or lessons from the game, some players played poorly, some players did not put enough effort or commitment in (and that is unforgiveable, but those players - limited number - will suffer the consequences over time for not contributing effort), but the game was lost through poor set up and poor application of a game plan from the start...something we HAVE to learn from

with regard to the manager's choices.....a repeated mistake and he should take that as a knock and ensure he learns from it....was it arrogance, over-confidence, over-optimism or just a bad day at the office?  i tend to think some complacency and some optimism/naivete over how saints would respond to our attacking options...saints are a footballing side, who tend to press forward alot and are at their best when attacking and playing at tempo in the opposition half.....regardless of the opposition we should always consider their strengths and how to counter them

[PhaseOfPlay]

I was going to post something along similar lines. Skimming through this thread there seems to a be a broad consensus that we played a far too cavalier line up, that changes could have been made, perhaps not in personnel but instructions from the side in formation in the 1st half when it was obvious to all, having witnessed similar performances where the team crumbles against aggressive pressing. As you say, it is the recurring nature of the defeats that is troubling. A touch derisive PoP, to suggest you have to be a coach to understand, sure you or the posters who do have that experience will know a great deal more than 99 per cent of us fans but yesterday as in many other defeats this season it was quite clear what was happening and indeed your post w/r/t having two separate LFC teams out there yesterday, the defensive unit and the attacking players essentially playing as two different sides is in broad agreement with pretty much everyone's analysis.

It's not about coaches. I need to make that clear. It's about people talking about the game who clearly haven't played. At any level. Talk of changing things 15 minutes in by hauling a player off smacks of someone who was never hauled of the field before. I can't understand why anyone would think that was an option so soon into the game. Change the formation, yes. But to sub a player off with less than a quarter of the game gone by is a sure way to lose that player's confidence. As I said, you might get away with it once, but if it becomes a regular thing, players then play with fear, and become risk-averse, which is not what an attacking manager wants. This thread started off well, like all the RT's do. Quality contributions from all, and then we get down to the end of the first page and it begins to be a case of blaming Rodgers for literally every little thing gone wrong, even though players have to also do the job on the field. Accusations of tactical naivete, then NigelManx telling us of how gracious he is for not posting because he wanted to give Rodgers a chance but now everything he predicted is coming through and we'll be in the Blue Square league before we know it (okay that bit is my exaggeration ), questioning of the coaching staff, and more, just continued the zeitgeist of the post-match thread. The manager made some mistakes, and the players didn't turn up. That doesn't make the manager crap and the players lazy. It just means they had an off-day. A very bad off-day; but an off-day nonetheless. Spurs are on a three-match losing run. Is Villas-Boas a bad manager all of a sudden? Of course not. My question is, then - why should some of our supporters think the same of Rodgers? The game on Saturday is simple enough to break down, on all four levels of the game (except physical - I think we were able to maintain a good pace to the game throughout). Technically, though, the players' touch was WAY off. Tactically they made bad decisions on the ball and the movement was paltry (except for Coutinho, and possibly Enrique). Mentality is the biggest area in question - where was their thinking focused - the next game, the international week, or were they still playing last week's game against Spurs? And the same question could be asked of Rodgers. But what can't be extrapolated from this one game is that Rodgers is a crap manager. It seems to me that maybe some posters want that to be true.

[BreakfastPercy]

No, you're right and I know where you are coming from, but at the same time, to say Rodgers never played the game is also incorrect. He didn't play to a high adult level due to injury, but he played. I get the impression from the way some posters react to losses that they've never kicked a ball in anger in their lives, because some of the things they post are just so far outside of what actually happens it's not funny. And it doesn't matter if you played on a serious pub team or have a Champions League medal - being part of a competitive team at any level (and indeed any team sport) will give you an insight into what does and doesn't work in football and competition, and when you know these things, you temper your criticisms a bit more, and put things into more context. There are a lot of posters who do this, and whether I agree with them or not, their posts are interesting to read and give a lot of pause for thought - similarly, though, there are others who are happy to tell us how it SHOULD have been done, without ever having done it themselves at any level at all. It's these people that I rail against. They are usually confined to the post match thread, but some of that sentiment seems to have seeped into this Round Table, which I always felt should be a thread for more considered responses that are objective and constructively critical, rather than a place to postulate outright fabrications of the "we've been crap all season and this game just proved that all those wins were a fluke" variety.

Yeah sure I was just being wary categorising opinion by type of fan exclusively. Maybe the difficulty with the Southampton game was not just that we'd seen it before a few times, but that it basically killed off our very faint hopes of fourth. Just a few more games with something tangible to play for would have been nice, but obviously that doesn't mean there isn't still lots of football to enjoy. We've been licking our wounds for a couple of years now and this season we have been suckerpunched almost exclusively after the games that have given us hope (Villa too springs to mind). We wanted to spend the next few weeks raging against the dying of the light, not snuffing it before we'd even had our last rites. Maybe that's skewed the reaction, but maybe not actual committment?

I think I've stood on my 3-5-2 soapbox often enough to know where I stand Also, I think, as Walshy pointed out, it makes more sense for the players we now have (which was going to be the crux of the "Suarez/Sturridge Problem" part of what I was going to contribute to the RT). Yes, 4-2-4 is vulnerable to a 5 in midfield, but a 4-2-3-1 is essentially a 4-2-4 itself, especially when the "3" go hunting for the ball in a tight pack like Southampton did. It's a case of getting the match-ups right, without compromising your attacking identity. Rodgers failed to do that, but similarly, the players failed to track what needed to be tracked. Both players and manager were culpable, and I think you're right about a lack of, if not respect, then certainly awareness of what they could be capable of.

That's what I meant about you not being wedded to formations! For convenience your mere mortal (me minus my ego) doesn't think of 4-2-4s that play like 4-2-3-1s or vice versa, they draw black and white distinctions because most of us are below your knowledge of pressing, zones, instances and phases! I guess I'm saying use your knowledge to explain what you mean, but don't necessarily use it to explain what other people mean. The criticism of the 4-2-4 is a criticism of a 4-2-4 that didn't play like a 4-2-3-1. If it had played like a traditional 4-2-3-1 us commoners would be calling it a 4-2-3-1! I personally think that whatever numbers we put on it, had it played like a 4-2-3-1 we would have had a better chance of winning.

I can agree with that, certainly. But I do also think there is a near-naked antipathy towards Rodgers from some quarters, and for me that's not right. We've made good strides forward in certain key areas, and we've regressed slightly in others. We are, essentially, a top three attack with a mid-table defence, which is the reverse of last season. Striking the balance is the key, but also allowing the manager in his first season the luxury of learning from his mistakes (this game was certainly a mistake - but he's also got a lot more right) is something that supporters should be doing - seeking to understand why certain things occurred, rather than damn the manager because they occurred. There are a lot of good posters who do that - cautiously question things, and seek the answers. But I get a sense this weekend that there are others who are less willing to question things constructively, and more willing to rail against the manager.

That's true, but the number of those is erroding slowly. On the internet we spend our entire time either being battered by the storm or in the eerily quiet eye of it. It's important you don't let that anitpathy wear down your ability to enjoy the game and see progress, but it's also important it doesn't stop us being critical too, I agree with that. It's not for me to tell you what or how to post, and I love how passionately you defend and explain your football principles. People who appreciate their football will always try to influence things positively. That said I personally hope your sense of responsibility doesn't mean you post what you think we need rather than just what you think. I think we are at the point now where these threads are robust enough for you to dismantle our tactics without worrying too much about the influence that has or how that positions you. It might not be the case and it's it's your call, I'm just saying serve it rare and bloody, and we'll wolf down the knowledge that you generously serve up in all the good threads. You've still got a hugely receptive audience, as has Rodgers. You don't need to absolve him of blame on Saturday to preserve that! If you wish to do so anyway, I look forward to what will no doubt be great analysis

[Giono]

You can't blame Gerrard for what he is. We just do a terrible job of complimenting him in the midfield. You don't see Juventus put a Joe Allen beside Pirlo. It's Machisio and Vidal! Two guys that work their bollox off covering Pirlo and it's what we should be doing with Gerrard. He's good enough that we should be compensating by having a strong midfield partner and probably a hard worker as AM too.

I agree 100%. He needs runners so that he can dictate play when we have the ball. Our season started to take shape when we played Henderson in front of Stevie and Lucas behind pressing and destroying, allowing Stevie to be the maestro in the middle.

[woof]

The manager's team selection and tactics were wrong that day and that cause a lot of problems with the team. Our midfield was overrun, some of the players lost confidence because of that and we just didn't turn up mentally. I think there's been too much reliance on Suarez and Coutinho or even Sturridge. Goals will win games but it needs to be a team effort. When we got one back at HT, I thought Soton were going to lose it. But none of the grit we showed vs Spurs materialised. Instead we were lackadaisical in most things we did. No character at all.

IMO, Johnson desperately needs some bench time. He looked jaded.

Yes, I'm in agreement that we definitely need a phasing out plan of Gerrard. We can't expect him to be playing till late 30s.

[kevin87]

I think Rodgers got it really wrong here. Away from home against a relegation fighter, with Lucas under an injury cloud.... The game was screaming out for a 3 man midfield. I dont disagree with Allen being selected at all though, I Wanted to see Henderson in there. The energy from henderson and allen working in midfield for the first 10 - 20 mins of that game and i think we could have had a much different result. They both would have given us the ball and we would have controlled the game... sure if we are 2-0 up at half time bring one off and put Phillipe/downing/sturridge on but let this be a lesson to us against anyone in a relegation fight.....the first 20 minutes are vital to control the ball!!!

What i also couldnt comprehend was the amount of time we wanted to have on the ball. I didnt see any quick one touch passing in that first half, which was very concerning for me. We seem want to play long ball football, completely bypassing any forward sitting midfielders. I think Rodgers really needs to address this, and quickly.

Skrtel also had an absolute shocker, which was very concerning to see. His positioning seems to be all over the shop, his confidence is clearly gone at this point in time.

Gerrard and Johnson both looked absolutley buggered and could do with a rest. It could be time to throw 1 or 2 young lads in for the few remaining games to get that spark and energy back. Wouldnt mind seeing 1 or 2 of Coady/ Suso/ Wisdom/ Stirling thrown in over the coming weeks for 1: they have all put in great performances in the 21's, 2; They all bring energy and enthusiasm into the team, and 3 give some of the older lads a kick up the arse as that performance was not good enough. Coady especially as i think he could genuinely do a job breaking up play in front of the back 4, the boy can really tackle.

But morale of the story for me is that we are no where near good enough to play a 4-2-4. Rodgers cant have all his big money signings playing at once, he needs to get that balance. Personally I would have given Sturridge a rest for Henderson. We really need to respect these teams fighting for relegation, especially away from home.

[Redshadow]

I would have put Lucas right on the go. Having him will create a balance midfield that will allow some breathing space against opponents who like to pressure right from the beginning. Another important point is to have him help cover Skrtel; who understandble was shaky after a long off. I know the third goal did not help this idea (lucas chasing in faint while Skrtel did not tackle at all), but putting Lucas at the beginning would have helped him build good rapport with Skrtel on the field. If BR wanted Lucas out of the line up, he should have sticked with Carra. Should not have taken both from the line up at the same time. That's it. That's the major mistake in my opinion...

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think Rodgers got it really wrong here. Away from home against a relegation fighter, with Lucas under an injury cloud.... The game was screaming out for a 3 man midfield. I dont disagree with Allen being selected at all though, I Wanted to see Henderson in there. The energy from henderson and allen working in midfield for the first 10 - 20 mins of that game and i think we could have had a much different result. They both would have given us the ball and we would have controlled the game... sure if we are 2-0 up at half time bring one off and put Phillipe/downing/sturridge on but let this be a lesson to us against anyone in a relegation fight.....the first 20 minutes are vital to control the ball!!!

It really wasn't though. It was screaming out for the two outside mids (or Downing at least) to drop back in to the middle and close the space on defence. It also needed Gerrard to have a good defensive workrate, which he didn't. Allen beside him isn't going to provide the legs, Lucas can but he only had a half to do anything. The issue wasn't playing a 3-man versus a 4-man midfield. The issue was the jobs that the two wide men did defensively in that 4-man midfield. We could have actually coped with their midfield if Henderson had been on for Downing and played like he did last season and on the left this season - going wide on attack and dropping into the central space on defence.

What i also couldnt comprehend was the amount of time we wanted to have on the ball. I didnt see any quick one touch passing in that first half, which was very concerning for me. We seem want to play long ball football, completely bypassing any forward sitting midfielders. I think Rodgers really needs to address this, and quickly.

We've been one of the highest dribblers in the league. Our game is based on possession of the ball, and possession starts with the man on the ball being composed. We've also played on average 61 long passes per game, and against Southampton we played 68 long passes, so not much of a difference. What made the long balls noticeable was that they were played very badly. Overhit or underhit or straight to one of the opposition players. Our biggest long passer is Gerrard, and his passing was off on Saturday. We also played more short passes than Southampton, although a lot less than we usually do.

Skrtel also had an absolute shocker, which was very concerning to see. His positioning seems to be all over the shop, his confidence is clearly gone at this point in time.

His positioning was pretty much as it has been this season - about 10 yards off Agger, and close to the fullback. If you look at Southampton's pressing, they pressed the space around Skrtel, because between him dropping and Gerrard not tracking, there was a lot of it to press.

Gerrard and Johnson both looked absolutley buggered and could do with a rest. It could be time to throw 1 or 2 young lads in for the few remaining games to get that spark and energy back. Wouldnt mind seeing 1 or 2 of Coady/ Suso/ Wisdom/ Stirling thrown in over the coming weeks for 1: they have all put in great performances in the 21's, 2; They all bring energy and enthusiasm into the team, and 3 give some of the older lads a kick up the arse as that performance was not good enough. Coady especially as i think he could genuinely do a job breaking up play in front of the back 4, the boy can really tackle.

You want to throw an unproven Coady into central midfield in the run-in for the season? And Sterling over who? Coutinho has already been more effective in 4 or 5 games than Sterling was in 20-odd.

But morale of the story for me is that we are no where near good enough to play a 4-2-4. Rodgers cant have all his big money signings playing at once, he needs to get that balance. Personally I would have given Sturridge a rest for Henderson. We really need to respect these teams fighting for relegation, especially away from home.

He can have all of his signings on the field if he changes formation. Alternatively, he can force Suarez into a more disciplined position out wide, but that will blunt his effectiveness. He could probably afford to drop Sturridge for now, but the same problem will exist next season - better to use this season to try and figure it out than to postpone it until it becomes too much of a problem.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I would have put Lucas right on the go. Having him will create a balance midfield that will allow some breathing space against opponents who like to pressure right from the beginning. Another important point is to have him help cover Skrtel; who understandble was shaky after a long off. I know the third goal did not help this idea (lucas chasing in faint while Skrtel did not tackle at all), but putting Lucas at the beginning would have helped him build good rapport with Skrtel on the field. If BR wanted Lucas out of the line up, he should have sticked with Carra. Should not have taken both from the line up at the same time. That's it. That's the major mistake in my opinion...

Injury scare in the warm-up. Better to monitor him and have him for the 2nd 45 minutes than to risk him for the first 45 and lose him for the season again.

[Redshadow]

Injury scare in the warm-up. Better to monitor him and have him for the 2nd 45 minutes than to risk him for the first 45 and lose him for the season again.

A good man-management by BR, I believe. He could have put Carra in the central to partner Agger, but then again, it would have damaged Skrtel's confidence even further ...

Allen (or Henderson); both need to improve their performance, especially to help cover the our defense knowing that BR likes to play with five offensive-minded players (make it six if to include Johnson).  Or maybe BR needs to take off some gas from the attacking style and let strengthen defense first. At least it helps with better ball retention before attacking ...

[PhaseOfPlay]

A good man-management by BR, I believe. He could have put Carra in the central to partner Agger, but then again, it would have damaged Skrtel's confidence even further ...

Also an injury worry, IIRC

Allen (or Henderson); both need to improve their performance, especially to help cover the our defense knowing that BR likes to play with five offensive-minded players (make it six if to include Johnson).  Or maybe BR needs to take off some gas from the attacking style and let strengthen defense first. At least it helps with better ball retention before attacking ...

It doesn't. What strengthens ball retention is working on ball retention.

[lukeb1981]

I still cant believe Rodgers put that team out ,every one and their dog knew what way they were going to play against us.They nearly bet utd at home and they bet city ,they are no mugs and they were well drilled.
He should of packed the midfield and made sure we won the second ball if you do that you control the game and when it is put to bed go with a 2 man midfield and catch them on the break.
Luis is fine up front on his own , in fact he trives on it away from home ,if we had of had henderson in there closing down and harring we could of won that game.
What worries me is that we have seen this before this season, WBA,Villa and even though we bet Wigan the signs were on the wall what might happen then we were poxed against spurs to win that game so why is Brendan not learning ,i think it was almost disrspectfull to Southampton to play that team as they would be a walk over,but we got what we deserved in the end and the score could have been much worse ,Allen should not have played , if he needs his shoulder done then send him off to get it done because he is no benifit like this and sturridge would want to start closing down the way Luis does that man just doesnt know when he is bet and is great example to the team, we need a few more like that with fire in their belly.
You have to give credit to Southamptom , they gave us a good going over and played some nice stuff , they have a few nice players that we could do with.

[DanA]

Injury scare in the warm-up. Better to monitor him and have him for the 2nd 45 minutes than to risk him for the first 45 and lose him for the season again.

Just out of interest do you think an Allen/Gerrard midfield could work with the four players we had in front of them? I think you're right in that with the right mentality displayed and coordinated pressing (by those in front) it's possible for it to be successful but to me it seems we're asking a lot of those players to play away from their strengths. I agree playing Henderson out wide would have been a big step in the right direction but then that's not playing a two man midfield which you suggest was fine. You know better than anyone that if you put a player like Henderson out wide he's still going to act a lot like a midfielder, it's in his nature.  I think Allen/Gerrard is always going to be a weak partnership. It needs help as both are stronger on the ball than they are with the defensive stuff.

I really think another point that is being skipped over in this thread in general is the conditions. We like to play a nice fast and neat passing style but on a water logged pitch that's not so easy. I don't think you can grumble about first touch in these sort of situations, it's bloody hard when you struggling to stay up right, the balls bobbling and the opposition is on top of you so quickly.

[L666KOP]

We played pretty much the exact same system under Rafa, almost identical in shape, Kuyt made a '4' when we had the ball, but dropped back in when we didn't, just like Henderson has at times this season from the left.
Rafa took 2-3 years of constant drilling to get that system honed, Brendan has had less than a season.
The only real difference is that Rafa's side moved the ball a lot quicker, and pressed more aggressively as a unit, whereas Brendan uses possession to give the team a breather, and to build in a slower, more methodical manner. It's not so much as DBF, but almost willing the opposition to make a mistake because they are either tired, or lose a moments concentration because they are getting fed up of constantly switching as the ball whips past them.

Fortunately, we saw past Rafa's 'experimental' phase, we were on a rollercoaster to Istanbul, Brendan won't be afforded the same 'free pass' of a European cup winning campaign by a lot of fans. And that's a shame.
There's already quite a few on here that are sliding beyond just questioning his tactics, and the list is growing.
There's a bigger picture, and some need to look at it.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Just out of interest do you think an Allen/Gerrard midfield could work with the four players we had in front of them? I think you're right in that with the right mentality displayed and coordinated pressing (by those in front) it's possible for it to be successful but to me it seems we're asking a lot of those players to play away from their strengths. I agree playing Henderson out wide would have been a big step in the right direction but then that's not playing a two man midfield which you suggest was fine. You know better than anyone that if you put a player like Henderson out wide he's still going to act a lot like a midfielder, it's in his nature.  I think Allen/Gerrard is always going to be a weak partnership. It needs help as both are stronger on the ball than they are with the defensive stuff.

I don't think that Allen/Gerrard works at all, no matter who plays in front of them, imo. Not as a "2" anyway. Both of them plus Lucas, yes. Both of them plus Henderson, possibly. But not on their own together. Gerrard needs a conservative and unselfish player with him who will do the work that Gerrard sometimes won't in defence. Henderson would have been a better bet, and Rodgers made a mistake on that one for sure - hopefully he knows it and will consider where to play Allen the next time. I actually think Allen could be good on the outside, if he's finding it difficult to recapture form in the middle. The outside takes some of the pressure off, and gives you a chance to retain your attacking skills while narrowly defining your defensive work. As for the Henderson thing, I agree, he certainly would play more central, but with Coutinho initally wide, it would have worked better for us - but it wouldn't have been a 4-2-4/4-4-2, even though you could probably write it down as such.

I really think another point that is being skipped over in this thread in general is the conditions. We like to play a nice fast and neat passing style but on a water logged pitch that's not so easy. I don't think you can grumble about first touch in these sort of situations, it's bloody hard when you struggling to stay up right, the balls bobbling and the opposition is on top of you so quickly.

I agree with that too. Someone above mentioned "playing one-touch football", but it was difficult with the wetness of the ball and the ground conditions. Even playing the long ball, it was skidding away on contact - the ball over the top to Suarez, for example, gained a bit of pace as soon as it hit the deck, wending its way to Boruc and leaving Suarez stranded (although he could have taken a better touch on it in the first place, perhaps). As a game, it was a lot like the Stoke 3-1 from earlier - a team playing to a certain strategy to pressure our back line; dropping their two central defenders back to cut out the long passes to Suarez (and Sturridge, this time); and with the addition of horrible conditions (although it could be said that the Brittania itself is a horrible condition ) to make matter worse, and an underperforming team and manager. It could be, though, that this was the last of those types of games for us this season - but we won't know until we get to the end.

[DanA]

We played pretty much the exact same system under Rafa, almost identical in shape, Kuyt made a '4' when we had the ball, but dropped back in when we didn't, just like Henderson has at times this season from the left.
Rafa took 2-3 years of constant drilling to get that system honed, Brendan has had less than a season.
The only real difference is that Rafa's side moved the ball a lot quicker, and pressed more aggressively as a unit, whereas Brendan uses possession to give the team a breather, and to build in a slower, more methodical manner. It's not so much as DBF, but almost willing the opposition to make a mistake because they are either tired, or lose a moments concentration because they are getting fed up of constantly switching as the ball whips past them.

Fortunately, we saw past Rafa's 'experimental' phase, we were on a rollercoaster to Istanbul, Brendan won't be afforded the same 'free pass' of a European cup winning campaign by a lot of fans. And that's a shame.
There's already quite a few on here that are sliding beyond just questioning his tactics, and the list is growing.
There's a bigger picture, and some need to look at it.

I think you've got to separate this game from overall opinions because it was not our usual game.  We've done a lot right, I'd actually say that perhaps apart from Oldham it was by far our worst game for the season. Overall i'm happy with Rodgers and the progress that's being made but the shape in this game did not fit the player we had available. It may have been a similar shape to Rafa's team but when Rafa had Sissoko & Mascherano, Alonso and Lucas playing in the midfield the particulars are very different. Those guys are defensively a hell of a lot stronger than Allen and Gerrard.

[Gnurglan]

Alright folks lets start the discussion with an overview before we get into the minutiae of the performance.  It seems to me that since Sturridge and Coutinho arrived Rodgers has been struggling to quite find that balance between the attacking brio that they have helped to add and getting the necessary midfield control that can provide the possession they need to thrive.


How would you tweak the current line up to improve that situation?

Who would you buy in the summer to address that?

First, play Lucas. If he's not available, we should play Henderson as our most defensive CM. I reckon he's got the discipline and he plays it simple. Allen, Gerrard and Shelvey all need someone more defensive beside them. Henderson is getting a lot of praise for his running and I read a lot of opinions that he should play as our advanced CM, but I see no real logic in that. That's not our problem. Defence is. For the more defensive CM role, I think he's our best option after Lucas.

Who to buy? Anyone who can be a proper backup for Lucas. Think someone like Hamann, but it could also be a Sissoko or Mascherano, or Alonso. I'd prefer if it was an aggressive player as I think we lack a bit of bite in CM. A physically bigger player is also OK, for the same reason. Someone who could face the battles with the Fellainis or Bentekes of the PL. And not just be brushed aside.

When we don't play Lucas, we're back to the same old stuff. You play physical or aggressive against us and we need to rely on Allen and Gerrard to protect our CBs. Gerrard could do it, but it's not what we want him to do. It's a waste of talent. Put another way, it shows a weakness in our team when the biggest goal threat in CM also is the player for the most defensive job (when Lucas is out). What about the rest? Luxuary? 

Allen? I think he's the one player that sums up our game. Give him the room to play and he's quality. Get close to him, be aggressive or play a physical game and he needs help. Same with our team. It's help we don't have when Lucas is out. It's such an obvious need for the squad. It has to be addressed in the summer. We won't, come August, all of a sudden pass the ball like Barca and look to have protective force fields around our CMs. Get that player and I believe Allen would shine beside him.

Hope to see Lucas next game, but if he doesn't play, I wish we could play Henderson in his place. Just to see how it goes. It's a chance to get answers before we spend in the summer.

[Funky_Gibbons]

We played pretty much the exact same system under Rafa, almost identical in shape, Kuyt made a '4' when we had the ball, but dropped back in when we didn't, just like Henderson has at times this season from the left.

Since the second half of the United game away we have pretty much played this formation every game; the key difference being, as you rightly point out, is that Henderson would occupy one of the wide positions. As a central midfielder playing as a wide forward it is more natural for him to tuck in and support the midfield when we're not in possession. I don't think Downing or Coutinho are offering the same level of support to the midfield and certainly do not have Henderson's work rate when it comes to closing players down.

The problem is not the formation which has served us pretty well since the United game, but the personnel within it.

[Redshadow]

Just out of interest do you think an Allen/Gerrard midfield could work with the four players we had in front of them?

I don't think so. To have an effetive Gerrard requires a more defensive-minded partner; Lucas is, and Henderson, with his work rate might be able to do it, too...but not Allen