Author Topic: Southampton Round Table  (Read 51003 times)

Offline Rusty

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2013, 07:20:23 pm »
I got the feeling that even if we had 3 in midfield we would have lost - too many players didn't put in enough effort or had a shocker. The sad fact is that the top teams can have a bad day like that yet still grind out a scrappy 1-0 whereas we can't do that - hopefully in time BR will engender that spirit in the team.

Surprised to see Henderson not starting - he's been playing really well (certainly better than allen) so it's strange that he hasn't been getting a game recently. We would have definitely benefitted from his work rate especially when it was clear we were being overrunning midfield.

Hopefully BR will learn from this as the formation was a mistake, and hopefully he will also let the players know that the effort needs to go back up.

Aside from that, our medium-term issues remain the same: in the summer we definitely need at least one (and probably two) commanding/organising centre back, and a good backup goalie to sort out our defence out. If there's still cash left over then cover for Lucas, and then maybe another fullback (ideally one who can play on either side) - if we managed all of those without losing anyone then I'd be fairly happy for next season.

In terms of attacking options I think our excellent January window has made signings for those positions a less pressing affair.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2013, 07:21:03 pm »
we need new faces in the summer because we badly missed Carragher as a defender and a leader and organiser on the pitch, that should not be a factor now but it is.
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Offline NigelManx

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2013, 07:25:01 pm »
Did they impose themselves because we were awful, or di they stop us from playing, thus making us look awful ?
Serious question.

Were we shit, or did they play that well they made us look shit ?
They saw our line up and put players where we didnt have them. We didnt adjust our system till it was too late. Going behind away from home by 2 to what is not a bad Southampton side was always going to be difficult. It needed brave decisions quickly. Henderson and lucas on before or at the latest at half time was needed. Henderson needs to start he's a good player. Lucas always should play.Full stop.

Offline so kop end lad

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2013, 07:30:01 pm »
2 new centre halves, a replacement for Stevie and a backup striker in the summer and a top 4 finish is possible.

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2013, 07:31:11 pm »
Did they impose themselves because we were awful, or di they stop us from playing, thus making us look awful ?
Serious question.

Were we shit, or did they play that well they made us look shit ?



They're not a great side but in fairness to them they were very, very good yesterday. Even shit teams who play well sometimes struggle to impose themselves in the final third but they played with a confidence that not many teams down the table do. They worked their bollocks off yes but they also used the ball very well. They beat City at home and by all accounts were very good at Old Trafford a few weeks ago. They clearly have some decent players but we didn't match their work rate by any stretch of the imagination.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2013, 07:44:52 pm »
we need new faces in the summer because we badly missed Carragher as a defender and a leader and organiser on the pitch, that should not be a factor now but it is.

For me it wasn't a leader at the back that we needed but a leader in midfield. Gerrard is a phenomenal player who has been excellent lately but when you play him as a cm then if he has a bad game the team has a bad game. The two in midfield totally relies on Stevie having a stormer week in week out, if he is slightly off form then it falls apart. Southampton did their home work stopped us getting Gerrard on the ball and capitalised on us knocking it long to two players who quite simply cannot hold the ball up.

We were ridiculously direct in possession and woeful without the ball. We couldn't get on the ball and were completely over run in midfield. They played with a very high line got players around the ball and completely dominated territory. At times it looked like we were trying to play uphill, we would knock it long and then time after time Southampton would come straight back at us.

Lucas needed to come on at half time because we were being over run in midfield but for me he had to come on for one of the front four, making a like for like substitution when we were short in midfield was bizarre. 
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Offline L666KOP

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2013, 07:59:00 pm »
We caused our downfall by being so imbalanced w/r/t defence and attack. Despite that, home advantage etc., most people would agree we have the better side and squad. So yes, Soton, played well, tactically they out-thought us and were pretty decent, of course we helped them, but better sides than us, with much better defensive balance, City, have come a cropper at St Mary's. So a bit of both.

And to all the other posters that replied...

When we address the reason why, we can finally start to impose ourselves on the league.
We clearly have a better side, better players in the majority of positions.
Yet like against Villa, we seemingly crumble, or do we ?
Again, like Villa, Oldham, we struggle to combat the most basic of tactics, a big willing lump up front that is prepared to give his all against us.

Did we underestimate them, did Brendan get his tactics wrong ?

What's clearly apparent is that we cannot persevere with Allen and Gerrard as a 'two' away from home. I knew after 20 minutes yesterday that we would lose, the body language of the players was damning.

424 ?

Why?

Let's go that way when we need to, or when the flat track bully approach is required, at Anfield, against the lesser lights, not away from home against a team that can play a bit, and need every point they can muster. I thought there was a valid reason to go back to three in midfield yesterday within 15 mins of kick off.

The performance yesterday unfortunately is one of those games that poses more questions, than it gives answers.
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Offline Koplord

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2013, 07:59:08 pm »
Our ball retention is so inconsistent which is something that's understandable.

The man city game was probably our best in terms of retention and passing everybody was on their game and looking sharp.

But unfortunately our players are not gonna be on top form every game so ball retention and passing rates will vary week by week.

I have said it before that sometimes I think Brendan picks a team with mindset that 'We will outplay you' without considering the other teams strengths and weaknesses which is ok if your Barca but there is no other team that can set up the same each week and not take the oppositions strengths into consideration. We have been caught out by Arsenal , Oldham , Stoke , and nearly spurs last week by just thinking we will pass these lot off the field.

Really disappointing especially with spurs losing today but its just another weekend of being a Liverpool fan
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Offline Kop10

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2013, 08:03:51 pm »
A 2 in midfield of Allen and Gerrard away from home against Southampton was really a mistake of calamitous proportions. I sincerely couldn't have imagined that any manager would do something like that.

Even the virtual world of Football Manager would make you pay for a midfield two of Gerrard and Allen away from home, neither of whom are ball-winning midfielders of any repute.

It's so obviously bad it can't have been arrogance. Oldham didn't fall for it so why would Southampton. It almost comes across as if knowing that Southampton's pressing game was our weakness, we decided to fight fire for fire.
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Offline sempi

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2013, 08:07:25 pm »
This season, the problem has been that we can be bullied off the ball, yesterday no Liverpool player had time on the ball.
Sturridge and Suarez looked isolated for long periods. Coutinho is not yet match fit. Did Downing even play? I agree with some posters Henderson deserves his place, if Allen needs an op; DO IT NOW!!!!!!!

Offline sempi

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2013, 08:08:38 pm »
And I hate to say it but we missed Carragher's  in defence.

Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2013, 08:08:59 pm »
Gerrard and Allen just doesn't work unless Lucas is thrown in their alongside them.

Our front 3 should be Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho with the three above behind them or replace Allen for Henderson.

Feel for Skrtel as it seems he's the scapegoat for yesterday when he wasn't the worst player out there yesterday imo.

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2013, 08:09:33 pm »
A 2 in midfield of Allen and Gerrard away from home against Southampton was really a mistake of calamitous proportions. I sincerely couldn't have imagined that any manager would do something like that.

Even the virtual world of Football Manager would make you pay for a midfield two of Gerrard and Allen away from home, neither of whom are ball-winning midfielders of any repute.
It's so obviously bad it can't have been arrogance. Oldham didn't fall for it so why would Southampton. It almost comes across as if knowing that Southampton's pressing game was our weakness, we decided to fight fire for fire.

I actually thin that Allen is rather adept at 'winning back posession', but cruicially, when he's further forward covering laterally, as opposed to chasing up and down the pitch, he's more of a 'Rush' than a Lucas. He's wasted in the holding role, and yet again was a passenger. He needs to be either just behind the '10', or in the quarterback position, certainly not given the role of 'destroyer', he's been invisible so many times in that role.
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Offline Kop10

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2013, 08:13:18 pm »
I actually thin that Allen is rather adept at 'winning back posession', but cruicially, when he's further forward covering laterally, as opposed to chasing up and down the pitch, he's more of a 'Rush' than a Lucas. He's wasted in the holding role, and yet again was a passenger. He needs to be either just behind the '10', or in the quarterback position, certainly not given the role of 'destroyer', he's been invisible so many times in that role.

I agree.

Allen is very good at winning the ball when he gets about you. He's not spacially aware enough defensively though to get close enough when played in a midfield two,  IMO. I still think he'd make a brilliant deepest midfielder/ anchor/playmaker in a midfield 3 in home games against weak opposition
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Offline Armand9

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2013, 08:19:34 pm »
Hmmm... (Ps I did worry about this result in the preview....)

I think most of us did and I know most us did when the team sheet was announced
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Offline redtel

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2013, 08:28:12 pm »
So the bench shouted "Get the Second ball" - thanks for that Harinder.

If we could have played with a second one and let Soton have the first one we might have outscored them.

That was surely BR preferred option ahead of this game. A 3-2 win over Spuds must have given him pleasant dreams of going for 3pts in an effort to catch the Laahdon duo.

I posted in the last round table that I was praying to see Allen or Hendo appear after half time v Spuds and when it did happen we suddenly got a grip on the midfield. It was surely about numbers and just how many fires Lucas could put out.

I can't subscribe to the sudden elevation of Soton to being a good team playing unstoppable football.
Look at their record before and after the change of manager. Won 6 games in total, 5 by Atkins against Villa (twice),QPR, Newcastle, Reading and the new man overseeing that win over City.

We saw how City perform away from home yesterday. I think Rodger's saw a team that was there for the taking and set up to attack from the start although the attitude of several in that horrible black kit didn't look convinced. It's the only explanation I have for such a weak showing.

As poor a first 45 mins that I can remember and I said at half time 4-1 wouldn't have flattered them. Most PL teams would have been delighted to face our set up at 3pm and team selection at Villa Park on Easter Sunday will be waited with bated breath by all Reds. We are the only game that day and they should want to avenge that home defeat.

Two weeks to recharge the batteries. Johnson looks shattered and surely deserves a break soon. Skrtel has lost confidence and that is not easy to regain in a tough league. Maybe they need to visit Enrique's barber as hinted in an earlier post as he at least looked on his game.

The two forward signings have been excellent but that shouldn't mean that when all our attackers are fit they all have to play. Something has to give for the good of the team surely.

How do we tweak it for next season?

CB who can play but can be dominant against these big strikers. Two needed if Carra, Skrtel and Coates leave us. I wonder if Wisdom or Kelly will be played there if 5th place is gone.

Cover for Lucas which has been needed for over 18 months.

A midfielder who can tackle as I cannot remember a player running through our middle from the centre circle and scoring without being at least fouled. We're softer than a baby's bum and we smelt like we needed a change yesterday.

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Offline toholmen

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2013, 08:34:38 pm »
I must admit i have serious doubts about the coaching staff at the club.
If our substitutions doesn't kill us. The starting 11 often will.
Mike Marsh and Colin Pascoe....not even sure a decent championship club would have bought into that.
There are some real quality in the playing staff that ensure some good results now and then during the season. But the overall organisation is at best all over the place, and conceding giant chanses every ten minute.
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2013, 08:40:58 pm »
Still smacked as a cheap lineup. I listened to Rodgers after match thoughts and he went on about how he saw it as a difficult game. Trouble is his team selection didnt reflect that in any way shape or form. It wasnt far off the way we set up against Oldham, leaving us totally exposed. In fact it was frankly ridiculous at times yesterday, they cut through us at will in that first half.

As for Soton i think they are poor, and we made it easy for them, i mean they almost gifted us a goal in the first few minutes with a backwards pass, but we were that terrible it didnt matter.

For me Rodgers thought we'd pick up points with one or two rested (unless Carra was injured) kind of the way Rafa used to, except Rafa had some sort of excuse with CL games in the mix.

Should have kept the same team as last week. On another note I dont know why we dont play 3-5-2, i think thats the most comfortable formation for the players we have at the moment.
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2013, 08:47:18 pm »
On another note I dont know why we dont play 3-5-2, i think thats the most comfortable formation for the players we have at the moment.
With Coutinho in the CAM role? I think that is certainly worth trying.
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2013, 08:49:05 pm »
RAWK seems to be in 90% agreement in terms of tactics and where to play Allen, what formation to play etc.

What I don't get is that the coaching staff, who work with the players every day, and know them personally, apparently don't see the same things...who's in the right?
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2013, 08:55:18 pm »
I got the feeling that even if we had 3 in midfield we would have lost - too many players didn't put in enough effort or had a shocker. The sad fact is that the top teams can have a bad day like that yet still grind out a scrappy 1-0...

Can they really, always? I agree with your first sentence though, the effort of too many players was just not from the level needed to win a game in the PL.

The tactical set up was pretty adventurous, typical Rodgers as he is always up for risking more than other manager would in certain situations. For example the way he brought in the youngsters at the beginning of the season was an even higher risk to take IMO compared to what he tried in some games (and this one).

Probably it´s a weak spot of Rodgers, falling too easily for big ideas way too early, but it worked with the youngsters which I never thought it would, and people may not be fully aware that he was actually risking his career by doing so. At the end it worked and probably you cannot have it both ways with the way of a manager, to expect Rafa to risk what Rodgers did doesn´t work, just as the other way around f.e.

Considering this, it´s nothing unexpected with Rodgers, still I think the players have to take a fair share of the blame as well. We didn´t win any second balls, hell, we didn´t even try to do, just watched Southampton sprinting back and forth, actually they showed us how it should be done and for some reason some players didn´t show up for the entire length of the game.

I would be careful to blame it entirely on Lucas not playing, we really SHOULD be able to work as a team without him and this is especially true for our midfield. It´s three manager in now, Hodgson, Kenny and Rodgers, all pretty much depending on Lucas to have our midfield organised and it´s something we have to address with buying players in order to change this for the next season.

So the tweaking of the line up isn´t really a point to discuss IMO as it can go either way and depends heavily on the effort and will of (some) players.

Overall I think this game was a reflection of the quality of the squad and our progress, games like this are to be expected and we should remember that those kind of games became more the exception than the rule. It will be important to win the next couple of games though, I am curious how Rodgers and the squad will react and as much there is no guarantue to bounce back I am still convinced Rodgers knows exactly what he is doing.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 09:00:59 pm by steveeastend »
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2013, 08:58:50 pm »
With Coutinho in the CAM role? I think that is certainly worth trying.

Well i mean Johnson and Enrique are more wingbacks than fullbacks. Stick in Carra, Skrtel and Agger, Gerrard and Lucas in middle with Coutinho as CAM, with Suarez and Sturridge up front.

Then you got Henderson and Allen, Allen could play the CAM role as backup, Henderson in any of Gerrards or Lucas's roles, and Downing can play left or right wingback.
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2013, 09:02:26 pm »
Well i mean Johnson and Enrique are more wingbacks than fullbacks. Stick in Carra, Skrtel and Agger, Gerrard and Lucas in middle with Coutinho as CAM, with Suarez and Sturridge up front.

Then you got Henderson and Allen, Allen could play the CAM role as backup, Henderson in any of Gerrards or Lucas's roles, and Downing can play left or right wingback.
Yep only formation that will allow Carra, Sturridge, Coutinho and one from Wisdom/Skrtel all to play and not leave us unbalanced like yesterday.
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Offline Rohit

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2013, 09:23:52 pm »
Gerrard and Allen just doesn't work unless Lucas is thrown in their alongside them.

Our front 3 should be Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho with the three above behind them or replace Allen for Henderson.

Feel for Skrtel as it seems he's the scapegoat for yesterday when he wasn't the worst player out there yesterday imo.

I agree with you on this mate, the defense has been no better with Carra at the back than it has with skrtel. For all the talk of a leader, we've still  conceded goals once Jamie has come back into the team. So that tells me its a fundamentally a structural problem rather than a personnel. I said it Martin's thread, you don't become a bad player over night and nor did all of our defenders forget how to defend in open play or set pieces.

If your midfield and forward is structured as such that it allows even average players run at them at will, you will concede.

It seems Rodgers thought all of his front 4 from yesterday were in good form and justified selection but it killed the balance of the team. Rodgers has preached about control and the first mode to do that is to flood the central zone with midfielders and allow some ball possession and compactness( he saw the problem against spurs).

The frustrating thing is these problems aren't new. He solved them for a while then threw a spanner in the work by going with that line, I hope we don't make the same mistakes again.

Offline DanA

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2013, 09:31:05 pm »
A few things I noticed:

1. We can't afford to play Jones. He did an admirable job with saving shots but 35% pass accuracy! You can't have that with Rodgers game plan.
2. Allen/Gerrard....never again. The coordination when they work together is terrible.
3. Why did we concede the midfield to Southampton? We allowed their three to dictate over our two.
4. The team sheet was a disaster which I dare say worried 90% of Liverpool fans when they saw it

For me the team should have been:
 
                  Jones
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
             Gerrard Lucas
 Downing Henderson Coutinho
                   Suarez

You can't blame player effort every time we lose. IMO that performance was largely Rodgers terrible choices, it's one thing to role the dice against Tottenham, they play such an aggressive high line that bypassing the midfield (their strength) was a bit of genius. But why take that gamble against  Southampton. It gave us all of the weakness' but without the aggressive high line it had none of the strengths. This game IMO was a managerial disaster.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 09:33:56 pm by DanA »
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Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2013, 09:43:23 pm »
Well i mean Johnson and Enrique are more wingbacks than fullbacks. Stick in Carra, Skrtel and Agger, Gerrard and Lucas in middle with Coutinho as CAM, with Suarez and Sturridge up front.

Then you got Henderson and Allen, Allen could play the CAM role as backup, Henderson in any of Gerrards or Lucas's roles, and Downing can play left or right wingback.

You are not going to see Hendo playing either of the defensive midfield positions again imo. Brendan does not trust him either in the ball retention part of the plan or to be disciplined enough shapewise to play either of these positions. Henderson will either be seen as the tucked in or "false" winger or, most likely, as the most forward of the midfield three.

Yesterday Brendan wanted to see how both Suarez and Coutinho, alternatively, would fare as the more forward of the midfield three. to be honest I think he is experimenting on a grand scale at the moment personnel wise but he seems to have a strong preference for a defensive six i.e. four defenders and two midfielders in front of them. He tried the wing backs against Everton, I think it was, and aborted it after half an hour.
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2013, 09:49:25 pm »
Since this wasn't open last night when I was going to vent I took to twitter with Cpt Reina being the unfortunate victim of my outrage.

To sum up the gist of it. This was yet another one of those days where you could see it coming from a mile away. The type where you can't help but feel with a feeling of disgust in your gut that you know the bloody Mancs wouldn't have lost. It's been a worrying trend in my entire lifespan, ever since we last won the league. There have now been so many of those in the past few years that I've almost stopped caring when they happen and I hate that feeling.

This game was no exception. This was to me obvious when seeing the line-up and when it unfolded Rodgers didn't react well enough so it was inevitable from the moment they scored. The fact that we went to half-time with the score 2-1 is an injustice to Southampton rather than anything having to do with our gameplan. Many have argued that these types of games are down to the fact that Rodgers is too dogmatic and lacks a 'plan B'. Personally I really don't give two shits about Rodgers' lack of a plan B. I am however getting quite concerned about his inability to adjust plan A.
It just feels that every team that has a go at our goal through the middle will score against us. Without fail. And the fact that Rodgers doesn't set up the team against these types of players is getting very worrying. Villa, Tottenham, Southampton, Brighton, Swansea just to name a few all of them spot our obvious weakness. And yet Rodgers is so incredibly dogmatic in his system that he doesn't adjust when he should. In a sense it's why I wish we'd have Kenny & Clarke's pragmatism. Like against Stoke for example. We need to find a middle ground. We're losing games we should've won and we're winning games we used to lose. As others have said it's two steps forward and one step back. So in a sense it's still a step forward, but we still seem, as a club, from top to bottom hellbent on repeating the same mistakes. We underestimate the opposition too often and we set up arrogantly thinking "we're Liverpool, they'll roll over" instead of showing it and letting other teams do it to themselves.

Southampton are a team fighting for their lives. They play very good football, considering the trash we usually get from newly promoted sides. Especially so now under their new manager, they play a high-intensity pressing game and have sorted out their defence. Setting up without Reina, Carra or Lucas was begging for them to push through on us. Jones refuses to leave the 6 yard box when he isn't literally forced to. I like Brad Jones a lot. I think he's a very good shot stopper and he seems like a genuinely nice guy. But he's not a voice that commands respect. When I watch the games I can hear Reina or Carragher commanding the back 4 all the way to Iceland. Jones is a bit mellow, in the back. He's not someone who lets people know when they're fucking up. In the 3rd goal you could see his frustration that they got the shot on goal but in hindsight you also get the feeling there wasn't much he did to order the team around to prevent it either. Skrtel, whom I love, is a drone. He's the perfect mindless instrument of destruction. In a high-flying team like we were at times. He's a great player when he has a Clarke or Rafa who will literally coach him through it for 90 minutes. But under Rodgers he hasn't done much the same. I feel a bit disappointed with his involvement because it felt a bit like throwing him in for the hell of it rather than what was best for the team. I got the feeling that this was his last chance. We'll see the safe option in Carragher and Skrtel will go in the summer. Which is a shame, mostly because of how good he was last season. I love him to death but he's as sharp as a brick wall and since you need to coach him step by step and Rodgers prefers his players on the same wavelength I don't see him making an exception for Skrtel. Especially when he will need to replace Carragher, Skrtel is easy to raise capital. Setting up without Reina, Lucas or Carra did nothing to help Skrtel's cause, because his biggest problem is how he tends to switch off.

As for the game it was a cumulation of our faults. Jones is so scared of the action that he wants to keep him close at all times - and for someone who is that tall and the only player allowed to use his hands inside the box, Jones seems terrible insecure challenging for aerial balls. Gerrard and Allen are very good midfielders but they stay in the same places and offer no balance. I'm not angry about the results, I'm angry about the fucking inevitability of the loss which Rodgers has had too many of. Rodgers has a really wonderful philosophy. His problem is that he's so idealistic that it's almost to the point of naivety. That's not to say I don't believe in the system or the "grand plan". Because when it works, my god does it ever work. My problem now is the same as it was in October. He sets out against these sides expecting them to let us play our game how we want, when we want. At times it feels that it's like he can't come to terms with the idea that teams will lie and cheat, throw themselves on the line and "play ugly" to get the points.
It feels personifited in Joe Allen. He is the type of player you'd want British players to be. But he's not the type of player who bests the ones that aren't. I like him a lot but his lacklusture attributes without the ball is all too obvious in games like these that's exactly the same feeling I get. It's *beneath * him to have to stoop to their level. Ferguson loves these games  I mean it's just incredible ignorance imho. Our resurgant form and clean sheets have been the improvement of Reina, Carra, Agger, Lucas. Rodgers now went with 1/4 and he does so away from home. He then set it up with Coutinho and Sturridge both new and both some way off full match fitness. Henderson would at have least driven Southampton back with his relentless energy. Yet we played Joe Allen, who has been in a slump and carrying a shoulder injury for 4-5 months we've recently learned. Johnson had arguably his worst game in a red shirt apart from 22 seconds after the 90th minute and two goals down.
The game, like too many this season felt more like self sabotage than losing to the opposition. Not just because they were the games we should and have to win. But because it was clear from 5 minutes in that we had a weakspot and weren't adjusting. Rodgers did so brilliantly against Everton by swapping at half-time but now it's like he has retreated to his ideal vision to a delusional type of dogmatic idealism. Again don't get me wrong the wins have been outstanding and it's actually been very fun to watch us play in the new year. But it's the fact that every single time we look to be resembling any sort of momentum we fall off the cliff when we should be taking off. And that's so incredibly frustrating to watch month after month, season after season. I think he's got a genuinely concerning blindspot to Allen. He put so much effort and money into making sure that he got Allen he practically called him the personification of his footballing philosophy. So when Kenny's outdated methods, personified in Henderson started working a lot better the thought of "what if I'm wrong" entered his head. And he reacted by dumping Hendo because Allen is really good. But Hendo is the type of player that tends to work in the PL. Where sometimes just wanting it more than the other guy means the difference between a draw and a win/loss. Kuyt showed that better than anyone me neither. I meant simply in the terms of games like Stoke, Oldham et al where sometimesit's not about what you do with the ball sometimes what wins you the game is the 30 yard dash to the ball. Where you will see Hendo or even Downing chasing a lost ball even if all it does is pull back 2 midfielders to cover in case they get it. Allen just sits and waits for the ball to come back Lucas' involvement today was also terrible. Bad management imo. Just sit him down, ask him to take one for the team and then when we have the upper hand he comes off. How does it help his fitness coming on and having to chase the goal for 45 minutes, dragged all over the pitch. If you can only use your best players for a limited time you should always do so on your own terms!

What I keep going back to is that 1-3 loss to Avram Grant's West Ham in 2011. When Parker scored against us. I thought that was the last time we'd see a lesser side get the better of us by literally sitting back, catching us out and bumrushing up the middle, since then it's been WBA 2-3x doing it, Sunderland, Bolton (ffs!), QPR, frankly too many to count. Which is just depressing we need a presence Carra and Kyrgiakos are both terribly limited but they put the fear of god in you if you're attacking the ball our players are too willing to look at their teammates looking for explanations about what went wrong than accepting they were.

I hope we can adjust in the summer. But I don't have too high hopes that we will this season. I firmly believe we'll not draw again this season. We'll win big and lose when we shouldn't. Funnily enough we'll probably get more points that way. But the frustration sometimes gets overwhelming and yesterday was one of those days.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2013, 10:03:09 pm »
For me it wasn't a leader at the back that we needed but a leader in midfield.   

I agree here, actually I did change my mind on this as it´s just too obvious that some players need somebody to wake them up or lead my example.

Players like Downing, Johnson, Sturridge (and probably Coutinho,just because he is new to this league) do kind of need some sort of shouting and/or confrontation in order to get into a game early on and not like Downing admited, "starting too late".

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/we-lost-because-we-started-too-late

Actually his statements after the game were pretty remarkable. This is PL football, not some sunny sunday afternoon five-a-side game.  :o If players need a wake up call for a game with being on average 40.000,---/week then you know something is wrong with the quality of this squad.

I do think that Lucas leads by example, his constant work and pressure does something to others as they don´t wanna look ordinary besides him. But we need more of that quality, especially as it only works if this player shows quality in addition in order to be well respected as a leader.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:17:44 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline DanA

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2013, 10:12:19 pm »
You can't blame Gerrard for what he is. We just do a terrible job of complimenting him in the midfield. You don't see Juventus put a Joe Allen beside Pirlo. It's Machisio and Vidal! Two guys that work their bollox off covering Pirlo and it's what we should be doing with Gerrard. He's good enough that we should be compensating by having a strong midfield partner and probably a hard worker as AM too.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2013, 10:16:33 pm »
For next season,

Two new Centre backs
Defensive midfielder like mascherano



I think full backs are even more important, and of course a top player for holding midfield as I think the majority of our goals conceded root from those areas.

So it would be..

two full backs
one top holding midfielder
one attacking midfielder
one striker

..for me.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline CHOPPER

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2013, 10:16:43 pm »
Hmmm, a whole host of new players in virtually every position, a new manager for certain scenarios and a new formation. Has anyone checked the legs on this table? They sound like they've gone a bit beef jerky.


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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2013, 10:17:56 pm »
Hmmm, a whole host of new players in virtually every position, a new manager for certain scenarios and a new formation. Has anyone checked the legs on this table? They sound like they've gone a bit beef jerky.


Chill blood clats!

It was the question of the OP... just because you wondered..;)
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline mtred1984

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2013, 10:20:43 pm »
Respect goes along way in this league and we showed none to a possible relegation team yesterday by going with two in the centre of the park. I'm all for letting the opposition worry about us, they obviously did, hence the work ethic they put in. However, first and foremost, away from home you want to be gaining control of the game from the off, silence their crowd. Something we couldnt possibly do with the personel we had out yesterday afternoon

Said this in the post match thread, and had an arguement along the way with a poster, that if Lucas was ok enough to come off the bench when we where 2-1 down, to try and get hold of the game, he should of started, not in place of Allen, but instead of sturridge

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2013, 10:21:08 pm »
Way too much consensus in this round table. Someone throw a spanner in the thread please!
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2013, 10:22:35 pm »
It was the question of the OP... just because you wondered..;)
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Offline blert596

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #75 on: March 17, 2013, 10:24:57 pm »
Also what is with the reluctance to haul off a different player one in a while. The same players get subbed all the time.

I honestly believe that, short of injury, and for reasons unbeknown to me, Gerrard will be played every minute of every game this season.
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #76 on: March 17, 2013, 10:30:44 pm »
You can't blame Gerrard for what he is. We just do a terrible job of complimenting him in the midfield. You don't see Juventus put a Joe Allen beside Pirlo. It's Machisio and Vidal! Two guys that work their bollox off covering Pirlo and it's what we should be doing with Gerrard. He's good enough that we should be compensating by having a strong midfield partner and probably a hard worker as AM too.

tbf prilo doesnt get caught on his heels he does cover angles helping to cut off options.
he does have a defensive radar even if he is a bit light weight at times.

thats one thing you cant say gerarrd has.
when someone presses he isnt covering angles as much as he should
he isnt aware of danger enough either.

your right though
if your gonna play gerrard deep you do not put a lightwieght next to him

in fact in our system ( those pesky marouding fullbacks) we should be having lucas and a pair of legs in midfield to cover the space behind them when needed.

the whole ******* system smells of ossie ardilles
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Offline Beninger

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #77 on: March 17, 2013, 10:30:57 pm »
They were everywhere and we looked to be anywhere but where they were.  Pretty much nowhere.  They outnumbered us in our half.  They outnumbered us in their half.  They were getting to every loose ball.  We were outplayed and outfought.  Lucas, briefly, managed to improve our midfield.  It's up and down for us at the moment, but the improvement is there.  We need to finish as strong as possible, carrying on game after game, and having it carry on into next season.  We need a few players to come in.  Players that can challenge for starting positions right away.  Forcing our current starters to the bench, or forcing them to step up.
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Offline RedHandGang

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2013, 10:53:22 pm »
Poor tactics, poor organisation, and poor performances all the more damning as it is not the first time. This feels like watching the Evans teams of the 90s good going forward with some great football but terrible defensively and if most people are honest there is a concern that this sort of performance is lurking under the surface. Not good especially after the euphoria of the Spurs result.

Out thought and outfought by relegation fodder with a manager who can't yet communicate in English.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2013, 10:54:03 pm »
It was the question of the OP... just because you wondered..;)

I was rather expecting one or two changes not a complete overhaul. But thanks for at least addressing the question.
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