Topic: Southampton Round Table

[Cocomin]

We played pretty much the exact same system under Rafa, almost identical in shape, Kuyt made a '4' when we had the ball, but dropped back in when we didn't, just like Henderson has at times this season from the left.
Rafa took 2-3 years of constant drilling to get that system honed, Brendan has had less than a season.
The only real difference is that Rafa's side moved the ball a lot quicker, and pressed more aggressively as a unit, whereas Brendan uses possession to give the team a breather, and to build in a slower, more methodical manner. It's not so much as DBF, but almost willing the opposition to make a mistake because they are either tired, or lose a moments concentration because they are getting fed up of constantly switching as the ball whips past them.

Fortunately, we saw past Rafa's 'experimental' phase, we were on a rollercoaster to Istanbul, Brendan won't be afforded the same 'free pass' of a European cup winning campaign by a lot of fans. And that's a shame.
There's already quite a few on here that are sliding beyond just questioning his tactics, and the list is growing.
There's a bigger picture, and some need to look at it.

When Rafa tried this he had Mascherano covering the back four he's one of the best defensive midfielders in the world.

[NigelManx]

I think you've got to separate this game from overall opinions because it was not our usual game.  We've done a lot right, I'd actually say that perhaps apart from Oldham it was by far our worst game for the season. Overall i'm happy with Rodgers and the progress that's being made but the shape in this game did not fit the player we had available. It may have been a similar shape to Rafa's team but when Rafa had Sissoko & Mascherano, Alonso and Lucas playing in the midfield the particulars are very different. Those guys are defensively a hell of a lot stronger than Allen and Gerrard.

But surely the point about your comment strengthens the argument that most people are making. Rafa signed those players as he needed those type of players to play the way he wanted. BR has set about his method of playing without as much awareness of the need to defend first...His ideas. It  remains to be seen if he can succeed.

[DanA]

But surely the point about your comment strengthens the argument that most people are making. Rafa signed those players as he needed those type of players to play the way he wanted. BR has set about his method of playing without as much awareness of the need to defend first...His ideas. It  remains to be seen if he can succeed.

I must admit I was disappointed that we signed Allen for that very reason, he's not a DM and we needed a DM with Lucas coming off an ACL reco.  But it obviously was more important to Rodgers that the players got the style he wanted to implement right first. Allen helped him do that and just because he addressed the attack first does not mean the end result will be any worse than Rafa's. Lets not forget we had Skrtel as our player of the season and Agger seemingly a perfect fit. I'd have put less emphasis on the defense too though I was a big advocate of signing a DM and LB or someone who could cover both.

[PhaseOfPlay]

But surely the point about your comment strengthens the argument that most people are making. Rafa signed those players as he needed those type of players to play the way he wanted. BR has set about his method of playing without as much awareness of the need to defend first...His ideas. It  remains to be seen if he can succeed.

Rafa built from back to front, and bought accoringly. We went through a succession of forwards to fit the final piece of the jigsaw until we got Torres.

Rodgers is building from front to back. He has bought accordingly. You don't need to "defend first" - it's a cliche. It doesn't matter where you build your team from, as long as you build. Rodgers knows more than most that it doesn't matter how good your coaching, you still need the raw materials to work with. He's fixed a glaring problem from last season. It looks like he'll fix this season's major problem in the transfer window. Let's see how that goes. If he can maintain or improve this season's attack, and get the right defence to compliment that, then yes, he will succeed.

[L666KOP]

When Rafa tried this he had Mascherano covering the back four he's one of the best defensive midfielders in the world.

Mascherano didn't cover the back four though, he was in place specifically to cover the fullbacks, he's very quick to both spot the danger, and act on it, a lot quicker over the ground than most as well.
Alonso was primarily the cb's shield, a lot less ground to cover. We could do with a 'Mascherano' more than any other whilst we build our team now, it's too easy for our opposition to pull our shield out of position and stroll through the gaping chasm that is our midfield, the fullbacks play a much higher line, but drag them deeper and we lose some of our attacking impetus, it's a balancing act, and not one I'd relish.

[goalrushatgoodison]

Yes, I'm in agreement that we definitely need a phasing out plan of Gerrard. We can't expect him to be playing till late 30s.

Not sure who you are agreeing with here mate? Maybe Andy A

Seriously though, imo, what you have seen the last two weekends is part of Brendan's plan for a post Gerrard Liverpool. to be honest, neither the 2013 version of Stevie, who still has a lot to offer btw, or Joe Allen are ideal players to operate in the set up Rodger's has gone for in the last two matches.

Brendan is experimenting with the front four here because long-term he believes you have to bully teams like Southampton home and away to compete at the very top. I don't mean bully physically here but rather his death by football mantra. The absence of the ideal midfield set up to play this way has not prevented him from experimenting with his favoured system for these types of matches.

On this occasion the front four got isolated, a little less so when Suarez and Couthinio were switched and things improved a little more when Lucas' introduction covered up the problem by providing protection for the back four. That's the way it goes when you are building a team, the only way you will find out about what works and what doesn't is by trying things out. fwiw I don't think that Brendan learned anything new about Steven and Joe on Saturday but he probably learned buckets full about his front four. More importantly, the front four probably learned buckets full about what is expected of them.

On the question of what additions are needed in the summer, how long is a piece of string comes to mind as in how much money do we have? On the basis that I believe he is building his team from the front back, and given the likely budget constraints,  I would suggest another player who can operate in the front four and a midfielder to compliment and cover for Lucas. Changes in defence will depend on whether we can get anybody out. Skirtel looks a likely candidate to move on so hopefully something can be done with the cash we will get there. One thing I will say though is that, regardless of how much money is available, the team should be built incrementally,  introduction of a large amount of new personnel simultaneously  is usually counterproductive.

[rocco]

and get the right defence to compliment that, then yes, he will succeed.

Thats it in a nutshell but IMO we were crying out for Cover or competition for Lucas in the summer and it was ignored again in Jan
Playing Allen in A DM role just seems a huge mistake ?

Still feel we're making strides forward but shooting ourselves in the foot as things start to look good .



Was worried when the first 11 was leaked I'd never play a 2 man midfield of Allen and Gerrard even with Lucas picking up a niggle in the warm up
Either add Henderson and make it a 3 man mid or swap Henderson for Allen and see if its any better ?

Still feel we're making progression from a attacking point of view but defensive out look we are going backwards or no progression
To put Allen in as a DM is just criminal and in a 2 man mid even worse and if Rodgers can't see this I'm very worried about Rodgers getting us sorted from a defensive perspective .
Still feel since around Xmas we have pushed on but still every few games after taking 2 steps forward we then take a step back
Rodgers got it wrong imo v Southampton but the players on the pitch again deserve to shoulder half the blame and issue that keeps happening
On Rodgers signings all 4 still can be a success but Allen as DM mid will never work , I've left out Assaidi as he will be moved on .
Do worry if Rodgers can get the balance between attack and defense correct as going forward were looking very good but in defense and the defensive side of midfield we are very average .
And if Rodgers can't see we need a DM with a physical presence it's another big worry .

Looking at the Southampton game and the rain I was pissed off watching the amount of long balls we were playing and how inaccurate they were as though just a lazy lump it up there and to add the lack of players tracking the attacking Southampton players was also very poor .
Felt at times certain players were just not tuned into what was happening around them

[L666KOP]

Since the second half of the United game away we have pretty much played this formation every game; the key difference being, as you rightly point out, is that Henderson would occupy one of the wide positions. As a central midfielder playing as a wide forward it is more natural for him to tuck in and support the midfield when we're not in possession. I don't think Downing or Coutinho are offering the same level of support to the midfield and certainly do not have Henderson's work rate when it comes to closing players down.

The problem is not the formation which has served us pretty well since the United game, but the personnel within it.

Correct, and this is why it works so well, he doesn't need coaching to do it, it's natural for him.
Whilst he doesn't have the attacking instinct of either of our more natural wide forwards, he offers a level of security that we've lacked at times this season, and I can't understand why we didn't play him, Allen and Gerrard have played as a 2 a few times this season, and have failed miserably when we don't play a third 'midfielder'.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Correct, and this is why it works so well, he doesn't need coaching to do it, it's natural for him.
Whilst he doesn't have the attacking instinct of either of our more natural wide forwards, he offers a level of security that we've lacked at times this season, and I can't understand why we didn't play him, Allen and Gerrard have played as a 2 a few times this season, and have failed miserably when we don't play a third 'midfielder'.

I do agree but I think the part in bold is just as important.

Whilst Henderson does offer a lot more solidity to the central midfield he doesn't offer as much of an attacking threat as Coutinho and Downing, even though this side of his game has improved this season.

From Rodger's point of view he must think that if he can coach Downing and Coutinho to offer a similar level of support to the midfield that Henderson does, but maintain their attacking threat, then we are a much more dangerous team.

I think in the game at the weekend it was clearly not working so a change should have been should have been made, but we also found ourselves chasing the game and any change would have been slightly negative.

The question I would have is should we persevere but with the understanding that we will probably drop a few more points before the end of the season but hopefully by the start of next season we will be much stronger team.

[L666KOP]

I do agree but I think the part in bold is just as important.

Whilst Henderson does offer a lot more solidity to the central midfield he doesn't offer as much of an attacking threat as Coutinho and Downing, even though this side of his game has improved this season.

From Rodger's point of view he must think that if he can coach Downing and Coutinho to offer a similar level of support to the midfield that Henderson does, but maintain their attacking threat, then we are a much more dangerous team.

I think in the game at the weekend it was clearly not working so a change should have been should have been made, but we also found ourselves chasing the game and any change would have been slightly negative.

The question I would have is should we persevere but with the understanding that we will probably drop a few more points before the end of the season but hopefully by the start of next season we will be much stronger team.

Downing and Coutinho are indeed a better bet offensively, but, they are one of the main reasons we have a gaping chasm between our front four and our midfield two, especially if the fullbacks are pushed on like they tend to, Henderson provides a body in the gap if nothing else, we need one of either Gerrard or Allen to be a lot more mobile if that's the way to go. I'm sure Brendan will address this particular problem in the coming window, we don't neccesarily need an 'enforcer', we just need a more mobile 'unit' for when we play a 2.
Sissoko would be the type of player that could fit the bill. It must be difficult for him though, wanting to play a certain way but not having the personnel to implement his grand plan, but I think this is the best way to go about it, hopefully those that make it to August will be more in tune, and those that come in during the close season will have more than just a modicum of understanding what Brendan wants.

[exiledinyorkshire]

I think maybe i'm naive as well, because logically i dont really see anything wrong with the team that rodgers put out. Logically Southampton are a relegation candidate, and exactly the type of team that Rodgers has been brushing aside with good quality attacking football. It obviously didnt pan out like that, but as far as i can see Rodgers had nothing to loose playing a 424 down on the south coast. I think he took a calculated risk that backfired.Go Big or go home. No point going there and trying to nick it with Suarez tucked in on the left and Sturridge on his own up front.

He may well have overestimated the mental ability of his side. He may have miss read the signs of confidence in some, but he put out a side that all his data and all his nouse told him could go to St Marys and bring back 3 points. That it didnt was only predictable in the sense that we have some issues that havent yet gone away. Mentality. I think we had all started believing that these teams were not a problem anymore. And i personally as a bit of a fatalist would have set up like we were away at UTD Villa instantly sprang to my mind, i'm glad in many ways that rodgers didnt though. Rafa would have, and there in a nutshell is the difference between a cautious manager and and attacking one. I'm glad we have an attacking one.

Incidently none of us know really what actually lay behind his team selection. We got beat. Football teams do.

[ashleyrose-66]

The problem Rodgers faces is how does he fit the front 4 in to his system?

The warning signs were there against Spurs last weekend, and despite having a good first hour, Coutinho was taken off to balance up the midfield.   We all saw the problem, and I was one of the first to praise Rodgers for realising it wasn't working and doing something about it.
Rodgers made the same mistake against Southampton, and actually worsened it by taking Lucas out of the side so there was even less defensive cover.  This surprised me.   This is in no way meant as a slight against Allen.  They simply aren't the same type of player, and when you have an attacking front 4 in Coutinho, Sturridge, Suarez and Downing, then you must have a natural DM anchoring the middle of the park alongside Gerrard.  Rodgers didn't pick him on Saturday!

So now he needs to find a balance - The form of Couthino and Downing suggests both should probably start, and obviously Suarez is a no-brainer.  Sturridge is returning from injury and hasn't looked his sharpest, but there is little doubt that he can be explosive, so it's a tricky situation.
Does Rodgers remove one of the front 4 and play an athletic midfielder (Henderson for instance) alongside Gerrard and Lucas to give a better balance in the middle?
If so, who makes way?

There is no point in looking at the players we need to buy in the summer.  We have 8 games to play this season, and Rodgers needs to correct his own mistakes before we can even begin to think about who can come in and plug the gaps.   

[elliskco Papes]

i personally don't understand what rodgers is trying to do with the defence, if you play a 4-2-4 then you don't need your full backs pushing so far up the pitch, we didn't look compact at all. i'm all for progressive football but we looked a big mess against Southampton.

[Twelfth Man]

The game on Saturday is simple enough to break down, on all four levels of the game (except physical - I think we were able to maintain a good pace to the game throughout). Technically, though, the players' touch was WAY off. Tactically they made bad decisions on the ball and the movement was paltry (except for Coutinho, and possibly Enrique). Mentality is the biggest area in question - where was their thinking focused - the next game, the international week, or were they still playing last week's game against Spurs? And the same question could be asked of Rodgers. But what can't be extrapolated from this one game is that Rodgers is a crap manager. It seems to me that maybe some posters want that to be true.

And yet, we regularly succumb to similar failings whenever we are pressed aggressively. Saturday, the formation and attacking nature of the team didn't help but even prior to Coutinho and Sturridge's arrival we have seen similar capitulations, we seem to get bullied rather easily (mentality?). Of course often we can match the other teams tenacity, particularly at Anfield and also for some notable away games, City stands out.

"The truth is, playing with any two of Gerrard, Allen and Lucas behind four attacking players contributing little defensively is like trying to build a skyscraper without foundations: a tower of attacking vanity bound to topple when the slightest pressure is applied."

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/03/rodgers-needs-to-practice-what-he-preaches-2/

That quote eloquently sums up pretty much most people's analysis of the game. The balance was off, it happens, more often than not it has been right this season, what is gutting is that we always seem to lose against aggressively pressing sides and after a run of good games giving us hope. To play with four attacking player's, at least three need to sprint back when we didn't have it and help out the CM's and defence, that was pretty clear from a spectator point of view, even the commentators mentioned this 10/15 minutes in (Paul Walsh), yet the only change we made was switching Coutinho from the left to the right. A 6-1 scoreline would not have flattered Soton at half-time, the team and coaches appeared dumbstruck. But its not like it was a new phenomena, in fact the Spurs game, adding Allen and getting some control back in midfield you would think would be a lesson learned. It might have been a bad-day at the office but I don't think the formation(s) or attacking nature of the team selection helped.

[fatlip13]

we were poor through out the team, Allen and Skrtel will take the brunt but i don't know of one player who was even average on saturday. systems contribute but performances count most. the system may have worked but we were poor on the ball giving Southampton great positions to attack us, they played well going forward but i thought gave us chances at the back.
Sturridge has appeared to caught a dose of attitude after a bright start, i hope Rodgers gives him a dressing down. one match should not derail us from a good run of form. top 4 was lost before now and was a long shot but hopefully we finish now like we are in the hunt for something

[DanA]

i personally don't understand what rodgers is trying to do with the defence, if you play a 4-2-4 then you don't need your full backs pushing so far up the pitch, we didn't look compact at all. i'm all for progressive football but we looked a big mess against Southampton.

In regards to defense I don't think he's trying to do anything more than wait until summer. We know how he wants them to play, I don't think we have the right players to pull off what he wants so we'll have to wait and see in summer. Personally I think we'll see;
1 x CB
1 x DM (that can play CB or LB)
1 x GK (to backup Reina)

Then hopefully we'll see a more functional defense though it really hasn't been that bad to date. Of course this is just me having an educated guess.

The problem Rodgers faces is how does he fit the front  4 in to his system? 

Long term I don't think we do. It might happen a few more times this season, particularly late on in games when we need a goal but I think we'll see changes next season change things. I'd much prefer a three man midfield or at least a 2 1/2 man midfield with a Henderson type named in a wide position.

[b_joseph]

1) I think we all know how easy it is the tweak the team in order to better set ourselves up with and without the ball. But for some strange reason, Brendan has watched our team build something...watched our team quite visibly improve once doing that thing ( Spurs game when Allen came on ). Yet still persists with this semi ridiculous idea of playing 4-2-4.
Its one thing to do that when you have really great athletes in the middle but to do it with the slowest, unathletic middle 2 pairing..maybe in the league, is silly. Our giys who play in there are very good players, dont get me wrong but they all need to be in a 3 to make it work.
Its bordering on insanity at this point because you try it...it fails...but then try it again. I am a massive fan of his and will continue to do so because ultimately, he is the right guy in my book. But he has to show a little, humilty might be the wrong word but its the closest I can come up with to describe it. Seen as there is just no excuse to go on the road and set your team out like that. It shows a complete lack of respect to the opponent and opponent that have played all the good teams very tough at home this year.


2) Again, nothing different than what we already know. 2 Centre Backs that can realistically challenge for the starting spots ( Time to be ruthless and create real competition in there ) and a CM who is athletic enough to effect the game with his physicality but with an ability to pass the ball as well. But if push came to shove in regards to the CM because that package isnt easy to find/buy. I would settle for a squad player in that CM role who was just there for the sole purpose of being an athlete.
Until you have 10 outfield players who are so superior technically that they dont need that kind of player, then that player will always come in handy in the Premier League. Even more so in a team that has such little team speed and power.

[NigelManx]

Rafa built from back to front, and bought accoringly. We went through a succession of forwards to fit the final piece of the jigsaw until we got Torres.

Rodgers is building from front to back. He has bought accordingly. You don't need to "defend first" - it's a cliche. It doesn't matter where you build your team from, as long as you build. Rodgers knows more than most that it doesn't matter how good your coaching, you still need the raw materials to work with. He's fixed a glaring problem from last season. It looks like he'll fix this season's major problem in the transfer window. Let's see how that goes. If he can maintain or improve this season's attack, and get the right defence to compliment that, then yes, he will succeed.

Defend first...its more an opinion than a cliche...I think you build from a firm base first and build on your defence..Scoring 3 but letting in 4 is good for neutrals etc but not for league position. BR thinks he need was to strengthen the attack and few..me included could disagree..however I feel this has happened to the big detriment of our defending..Agger,Skirtel etc were great last year and I feel there still good players just being exposed by BR's tactics. And I hope your right and he gets it right soon but I'm not sure he will.

[b_joseph]

So now he needs to find a balance - The form of Couthino and Downing suggests both should probably start, and obviously Suarez is a no-brainer.  Sturridge is returning from injury and hasn't looked his sharpest, but there is little doubt that he can be explosive, so it's a tricky situation.
Does Rodgers remove one of the front 4 and play an athletic midfielder (Henderson for instance) alongside Gerrard and Lucas to give a better balance in the middle?
If so, who makes way?

We are not Barcelona but they have/had a similar issue with Cesc. Trying to force him into the team and in effect playing 4 CM's that often crowded each other out.
What we seem to be doing now is forcing those 4 players onto the pitch together but instead of crowding, it is causing us to play with an unnecessary openness.

The only one who is nailed on is Suarez...the other 3 should be rotated to figure out who is the better 2 to play with Suarez for each game. Just because we now have options, it doesnt mean that we need to play them all at once.
There is no reason why some games, Sturridge cant start on the bench...or Dowing cant start there and play Sturridge off the right...or Coutinho and start Suarez off the left.

Last weekend for example, I would have sat Countiho and used him off the bench. Whether it was right or wrong, I dont know but as long as we have 3 CM's, we likely would have been more competitive irrespective of who the front 3 were.

[NigelManx]

The problem Rodgers faces is how does he fit the front 4 in to his system?

At home I think he can against some teams and of course if we are behind and need to win and throw everything at opponents then yes.
Apart from that no, he cant and shouldnt.

[Mutton Geoff]

ok why do we need WB's we have on his day one of the finest on the right and on the left a bull of a player, and as back up we have Kelly, Flanagan, Wisdom, Robinson, and Downing can fill in if the formation or tactics dictate that. Also Glen can play either flank. No essential not even close in my opinion.

 We need a physical presence in you may not have noticed but Stevie still creating well but not putting in the same percentage of physical challenges anymore, we need him in the team but we need a Yaya, Dembele, or the old Viera type of player alongside, at the moment Allen well injured but easily brushed off the ball, Lucas to a lesser extent the same, Henderson closes down people well but still very easy to knock off the ball, so teams with a physical presence often run through our midfield at will. If we could get him cheaply enough  i would even take a punt at Huddlestone at Spurs and coach and improvement with his distribution. Or why not promote Coady and see if he can step up.

 We have lots of we used to call Fancy Dan players, great on the ball tricky and turn on a sixpence but we lack a Souness type physical ball winner to allow them to do their stuff. Even with the reserves we still have lots of Ibe types and Suso type but not many who will get stuck in other than Coady.

By the way i only want one physical monster in midfield not suggesting we become Stoke City, before anyone gets hysterical about this idea.

Forwards i would leave as it is, Downing is doing a good job, Sterling unless he gets second season blues will come through and play more games instead of Downing rotating them dependent on the opposition might be the way to go. Ibe i think will get a few cup games and gradually a few more near the end of next season  ( this is also the reason i dont see Ince as a priority)

 We will have Borini coming back and this Yesil lad looked good before his injury, not sure about Assaidi, think he was a cheap punt and maybe sold in the summer.

Now the biggest problem is the CB's we missed Carra last saturday and at this stage in his career that should not be a factor with the talent we had but, Skrtel gone backwards, think there is a problem between him and Rodgers, Coates not sure Young player of the tournament in the copa america when we bought him has gone back so far is it form is it in his head, is it again he doesn't see eye to eye with Rodgers and not just talking about the difference in height here.
Agger has always been a classy defender but he has always worked well with a good solid ball winner CB next to him Carra gives him that none of the others do. So the Ashley Williams types in this world would compliment his game well. Not saying sign Ashley but we need a couple of up and at em CB's this summer.
That leaves the Keeper i reckon Rodgers wants Vorm or a keeper like him, sadly I see Pepe going this summer there is just something not right this season, even though Pepe has had more injuries than i can ever remember for him his keeping standards have been way down on previous seasons for us.

The thing is we dont know what goes on behind the scenes although some like to think they do, but the chemistry between Rodgers and Pepe has never been great in my opinion.

[Vulmea]

I think maybe i'm naive as well, because logically i dont really see anything wrong with the team that rodgers put out. Logically Southampton are a relegation candidate, and exactly the type of team that Rodgers has been brushing aside with good quality attacking football. It obviously didnt pan out like that, but as far as i can see Rodgers had nothing to loose playing a 424 down on the south coast. I think he took a calculated risk that backfired.Go Big or go home. No point going there and trying to nick it with Suarez tucked in on the left and Sturridge on his own up front.

He may well have overestimated the mental ability of his side. He may have miss read the signs of confidence in some, but he put out a side that all his data and all his nouse told him could go to St Marys and bring back 3 points. That it didnt was only predictable in the sense that we have some issues that havent yet gone away. Mentality. I think we had all started believing that these teams were not a problem anymore. And i personally as a bit of a fatalist would have set up like we were away at UTD Villa instantly sprang to my mind, i'm glad in many ways that rodgers didnt though. Rafa would have, and there in a nutshell is the difference between a cautious manager and and attacking one. I'm glad we have an attacking one.

Incidently none of us know really what actually lay behind his team selection. We got beat. Football teams do.

Rafa built from back to front, and bought accoringly. We went through a succession of forwards to fit the final piece of the jigsaw until we got Torres.

Rodgers is building from front to back. He has bought accordingly. You don't need to "defend first" - it's a cliche. It doesn't matter where you build your team from, as long as you build. Rodgers knows more than most that it doesn't matter how good your coaching, you still need the raw materials to work with. He's fixed a glaring problem from last season. It looks like he'll fix this season's major problem in the transfer window. Let's see how that goes. If he can maintain or improve this season's attack, and get the right defence to compliment that, then yes, he will succeed.

Normally you two speak sense this time it just seems like you've got your head in the sand.

Any team can get beat - thats not the issue most people have - the problem was thinking we'd get beat before we kicked a ball and being sure of it after 5 minutes and not only that but being able to predict exactlly how it would happen. We were even gifted a goal near half time which should have switched the momentum and we failed to take that opportunity as well.

If BR's system is so heavily dependant on individuals why persist with it when you dont have them? Even when you get them what happens when those players your dependant on break down or get suspended. You need back up we haven't got them either. If you have a philosophy of 'death by football' why can't we keep the ball any better than we did at the start of the season - if it needs better players then dont don it until you have them.

BR has said he wants two players for each position - to play the way he wants to will need a major overhaul if thats the case - he has warned in the past that it'll take years - Chopper is half right we'd need a whole team (not squad - we have roughly half the players he needs) of players - thats two, three or four transfer windows and a lot of disapointment while playing a system thats not suited to the players at hand. It will mean inconsistant performances and a failure to address key problems until the right  players arrive...........sounds familiar

Its a daft way of going - getting 'used' to the system is a fine sentiment if you going to stick with those players or bring them up from the youth ranks but
if you are looking to overhaul your squad and its not working you are just getting used to failure and a broken system until the right players arrive. Bringing in Sturridge for example, the attacking system didn't suddenly shift into fluidity we just had a player that could play it. WE'd been wasting our time previously.

For a couple of months I thought the lad had gotten real and learned some pragmatism, his selection of Carra being a case in point, his clever use of Henderson and Allens poor form was recognised but this was a throw back. BR has talent he's done plenty of things right but.........

- did he merely underestimate Southampton - did he expect them to worry about us - to outscore them - what was his thinking? surely he didn't have the idea that we should turn up and beat them because they are bottom three- please god no - he gets praise when he gets things right - this he got wrong - no need to ignore it - he deserves criticism for it

the idea he deserves credit for being 'attacking' is also daft - he played the wrong formation - it worked well for 30 against spurs - they didn't expect it - we had confidence and the ball -   it was the wrong formation after 30 minutes against Spurs because we dropped off and it was the wrong formation very predictably from the off against Saints because we dropped off - we'd have been more attacking if we'd controlled midfield - having attacking players on the pitch doesn't make you more attacking - its how you play - it wasn't brave or bold it was naive. Brave would have been dropping one of the attacking in form players or selecting Wisdom at right back because of Johnsons form or a whole range of things - getting us to press them from the start taking the game to them - holding a high line - these are bold attacking ideas - not gifting them centre midfield and selecting two wide men and hoping to counter

Building from the back provides some confidence in getting a draw from the game - building some confidence - it means that if you do score you can hold on to it - is there anything inherently wrong in building from the front - didn't rafa suggest is it like putting the roof on before you've built your foundations?

[sattapaartridge]

I have to say, having watched our first half performance we were very disorganised and lacked energy in the middle of the park. We were far too open too.

You have to give Southampton credit though, they pressed and pressed, our skillful ball players didnt have time on the ball, they blocked options for the pass.

Where we lost this though is two-fold:

If we're going to play 4-2-4/4-4-2, the wingers, in this game neeeded to be more compact, needed to help gerrard and allen more to be an option for a pass. Also, Suarez was marked very well, and sturridge was in limbo, he could have been the one coming deep to join up play. he's capable. This is where we needed that extra man in midfield, our wingers and strikers didnt come deep enough and compress play ourselves. We were too slow and sloppy in possession.

Moving Coutinho into the middle helped somewhat, but we then let clyne in down the left. I think Pochettino did a good job on us and Lallana and Lambert had very good games.

Everytime I've watched Lallana, I though he's shown some glimpses of genius. I really like him, I wouldnt mind us buying someone like him, he has good close control, good movement and is relatively strong.

Defensively, you can see Skrtel playing weirdly, he was going for balls he shouldnt have gone for, it was like he was trying to impress and was lacking confidence. He is seen as a weak link, but I dont know, he played very well at the start of the season and then has faultered badly.

Same goes with Johnson, he's on the wane now at this stage of the season, just like Enrique did last season (after a brilliant start to the season). You cant help but think, are they doing something wrong in training? Is the lack of midweek games costing some of our players playing time?

Ultimately, i do think Brendan got this one wrong. If allen was going to play, I think henderson should have supplemented him maybe instead of Sturridge or Downing who had quite annoymous games, even thogh Sturridge was wrongly ruled off side, he looked a little off key, his touch wasnt good and he didnt look his sharpest.

We deserved to lose the match, we weren't sharp enough, we werent tactically good enough for this game, they wanted it more and we lacked some leadership in defense or goal.

I dont agree with others who are gunning for Rodgers head and think "he doesnt learn!" or "he cant see whats wrong" or "he loves allen". There is evidence throughout the season where he has tried different players and systems.

A bad day for the team and the manager, but we support our club and hope to put this right in the next game at villa park.

[Mutton Geoff]

Just to enter this team building debate if Rodgers is building from the front that would be the old West Ham idea perhaps of well we can win 4-3, every good team needs to be built from the back forward, Better to keep clean sheets you at worst get a point. Shanks built his team around a colossus at the back and a feisty withdrawn Center Forward. All teams need a strong spine that's not just folklore thats a fact.

As for Barca  yes they built the team around some good quality passers and movers on the ball but they also made sure they had the likes of Puyol and Marquez and now Pique and Mascherano to shore up the back as well. All great teams have had relatively strong defences in place. So if Rogers decided he would build from the front well frankly he went against all forms of football common sense in my opinion, so did he show FSG a dodgy dossier.

The first priority should always be stop them scoring the second is score yourself, might not be esoteric and pretty but you know it gets you points all season. Lets face it we won many a title with these sort of teams did we complain did we hell.

[Vulmea]

I dont agree with others who are gunning for Rodgers head and think "he doesnt learn!" or "he cant see whats wrong" or "he loves allen". There is evidence throughout the season where he has tried different players and systems.

Its not 'gunning for Rodgers head' to disagree with the way the blokes doing things and wanting him to learn - the last thing I want is another change of manager -

the problem comes when its either one thing or the other - he either can't make a mistake or everything he does is wrong - the intenet sure tries to polarise opinion.

[El Lobo]

In fairness to the whole 'building from the back' thing, he inherited a side that had just finished 8th, with the 3rd best defensive record in the league and the 10th best attack. I don't think its ridiculous for him to have thought that the attack was what needed sorting.

Now, clearly, its the other way around. So lets give him the summer to see what he does.

[JackWard33]

I think maybe i'm naive as well, because logically i dont really see anything wrong with the team that rodgers put out. Logically Southampton are a relegation candidate, and exactly the type of team that Rodgers has been brushing aside with good quality attacking football. It obviously didnt pan out like that, but as far as i can see Rodgers had nothing to loose playing a 424 down on the south coast. I think he took a calculated risk that backfired.Go Big or go home. No point going there and trying to nick it with Suarez tucked in on the left and Sturridge on his own up front.

He may well have overestimated the mental ability of his side. He may have miss read the signs of confidence in some, but he put out a side that all his data and all his nouse told him could go to St Marys and bring back 3 points. That it didnt was only predictable in the sense that we have some issues that havent yet gone away. Mentality. I think we had all started believing that these teams were not a problem anymore. And i personally as a bit of a fatalist would have set up like we were away at UTD Villa instantly sprang to my mind, i'm glad in many ways that rodgers didnt though. Rafa would have, and there in a nutshell is the difference between a cautious manager and and attacking one. I'm glad we have an attacking one.

Incidently none of us know really what actually lay behind his team selection. We got beat. Football teams do.

So I guess this is the central point for me in that I can't see the logic to his team selection and I couldn't at the time

You talk about 'all his data and all his nouse' - well what data? What success have we had playing 4-2-4 (or whatever it was) in his time here? What logical factors are there in the make up of our squad or the individuals involved that we could play this way and have success?
I'm not sure we've won a single game with 4 attackers on the pitch from the start (Spurs doesn't count as we only got a foothold in the game when Allen came on so we had an extra player in the middle)

It seems totally bizarre that Rodgers is picking this formation after we've had obviously growing success playing a midfield 3 as the season has gone on
And if someone could let me know exactly what Henderson has done wrong or what he needs to do to get a game I'd love to know. At the start of the season BR said words to the effect of 'I'm not interested in reputation but what I see in front of me' - well unless he's watched different games to me every time Henderson has walked on the pitch this season he's done everything you could ask of him. Often he's been our best CM (yes including SG) and yet he's behind an injured Joe Allen in the pecking order - it's mystifying.

Football has changed over the years but one thing has remained constant - football matches are won and lost in the midfield. At the moment ours is a car crash despite just a few games ago looking competent. With 2 in the middle (any 2 from the current squad) we don't control games or possession I hope we never see it again

[Fat Scouser]

I don't think we can say Brendan's been building from the front. Bear in mind, he's had two windows. In that time, we seemed okay at the back. Enrique was playing great. Skrtel was player of the season. We had young kids coming through as cover. So, we seemed okay in that department.

Then there was the debacle of his first window, leaving us without a recognised out and out striker. Thankfully, Luis has been unbelievably good. But Brendan had to address that problem. He did. And I'm sure he'll try to solve our most urgent problems in the summer. But there's been no real pattern yet. So, he brought in Allen. All new managers will want to bring at least one player that has done well for him in the past. Just be glad, more Poulsens and Konchelskis never got dragged in. And have a bit of patience until Brendan's had the time to address the problems.

It was a bad day at the office. Actually, it wasn't. I had a great time. But as for what went on on the pitch, well, Brendan nutshelled it... we aren't the type of team that can grind out results when we aren't playing well. And it won't really be fair to make judgement until he's had time to address that. If he can't, fair enough, we'll move on. But we can't say where his squad building has wrong, when he hasn't really had the time to put his own mark on it.

More to the point... did he expect too much from the squad he's got? Did he over rate them and what they are capable of by expecting them to play to his system?

I think they're valid questions. But saying he got it wrong isn't, not when all the circumstances aren't taken into consideration.

[Sangria]

Just to enter this team building debate if Rodgers is building from the front that would be the old West Ham idea perhaps of well we can win 4-3, every good team needs to be built from the back forward, Better to keep clean sheets you at worst get a point. Shanks built his team around a colossus at the back and a feisty withdrawn Center Forward. All teams need a strong spine that's not just folklore thats a fact.

As for Barca  yes they built the team around some good quality passers and movers on the ball but they also made sure they had the likes of Puyol and Marquez and now Pique and Mascherano to shore up the back as well. All great teams have had relatively strong defences in place. So if Rogers decided he would build from the front well frankly he went against all forms of football common sense in my opinion, so did he show FSG a dodgy dossier.

The first priority should always be stop them scoring the second is score yourself, might not be esoteric and pretty but you know it gets you points all season. Lets face it we won many a title with these sort of teams did we complain did we hell.

1-0 to the Arsenal was one of the formative experiences in my football education. As much as I hated them, I grew to admire their back 4 and appreciate their way of thinking. If they can get a lead, there's no way back. Throughout the Spice Boy era I wished we could say the same about us. Attack all you like, but you won't score in a million years.

Also, call me perverse, but the image of Dutch football that I enjoy most is the offside trap against a deep cross set piece. I first saw it in Euro 88 (against the USSR?)  and thought it was a beauty. Every player acting as one to render the opposition pointless. Here's a modern edition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCPAZxSY9eU

[Vulmea]

Just to enter this team building debate if Rodgers is building from the front that would be the old West Ham idea perhaps of well we can win 4-3, every good team needs to be built from the back forward, Better to keep clean sheets you at worst get a point. Shanks built his team around a colossus at the back and a feisty withdrawn Center Forward. All teams need a strong spine that's not just folklore thats a fact.

As for Barca  yes they built the team around some good quality passers and movers on the ball but they also made sure they had the likes of Puyol and Marquez and now Pique and Mascherano to shore up the back as well. All great teams have had relatively strong defences in place. So if Rogers decided he would build from the front well frankly he went against all forms of football common sense in my opinion, so did he show FSG a dodgy dossier.

The first priority should always be stop them scoring the second is score yourself, might not be esoteric and pretty but you know it gets you points all season. Lets face it we won many a title with these sort of teams did we complain did we hell.

 it could depend on availability of course - if the right defenders aren't available and the right attackers are then there's no choice to make - last summer we looked to have a good defensive set up - Skrtel and Agger with Coates and Carra as back up. Who knew there was problem? So I'm not convinced its a deliberate policy.

Part of the issue has been the system and the emphasis it places on certain skills and then the make up of our team - we are a quiet team especially with Agger and Skrtel and Jones in the line up - BR is trying to play a more intelligent game - for me that needs better awaremness,  communications and organisation, there is greater trust and responsibility placed on everybody and its exposed a few cracks.

[sattapaartridge]

the intenet sure tries to polarise opinion.

Dont we know it, last week we're talking about the possibility of champions league, now we're shite with an average manager

Got to be patient, overall we're moving in the right direction.

[Draex]

Its not 'gunning for Rodgers head' to disagree with the way the blokes doing things and wanting him to learn - the last thing I want is another change of manager -

the problem comes when its either one thing or the other - he either can't make a mistake or everything he does is wrong - the intenet sure tries to polarise opinion.

I think that's the correct point, people questioning things like tactics/selection aren't automatically calling for his head nor think he is doing a bad job - they just have rightly so some concerns.. Isn't the point of a forum to discuss and debate differings of opinion? I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on this forum who wants a new manager.

[Mutton Geoff]

In fairness to the whole 'building from the back' thing, he inherited a side that had just finished 8th, with the 3rd best defensive record in the league and the 10th best attack. I don't think its ridiculous for him to have thought that the attack was what needed sorting.

Now, clearly, its the other way around. So lets give him the summer to see what he does.

you could say that and also say why did he change the way the defence played at the back,

 How many of our goals early on came about from dodgy passing around the box, trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse instantly. Defenders get confidence from clean sheets how many did we have before xmas? When the goals fly in defenders stop doing what comes naturally to them and get nervous and microanalyse every part of their game and sometimes look to fix what isn't broken. Also Defenders this season have not been helped by a tissue strength midfield in front of them.

Now my question would be Clarke had them organised at the back well, we let him go, (massive mistake there) but who is actually the defensive guru now do we even have one?

[DanA]

Just to enter this team building debate if Rodgers is building from the front that would be the old West Ham idea perhaps of well we can win 4-3, every good team needs to be built from the back forward, Better to keep clean sheets you at worst get a point. Shanks built his team around a colossus at the back and a feisty withdrawn Center Forward. All teams need a strong spine that's not just folklore thats a fact.

As for Barca  yes they built the team around some good quality passers and movers on the ball but they also made sure they had the likes of Puyol and Marquez and now Pique and Mascherano to shore up the back as well. All great teams have had relatively strong defences in place. So if Rogers decided he would build from the front well frankly he went against all forms of football common sense in my opinion, so did he show FSG a dodgy dossier.

The first priority should always be stop them scoring the second is score yourself, might not be esoteric and pretty but you know it gets you points all season. Lets face it we won many a title with these sort of teams did we complain did we hell.

You say he should have built from the back but in August last summer what exactly was wrong with the back? 
We had 4 CB's with a good record:
1. Skrtel: Our player of the season
2. Agger: Arguably the best CB
3. Carragher: Proven defender and vice Captain
4. Coates: Young player of Copa America

With Skrtel and Agger returning from the Euro's how much time did he get to look at them? Would you have thought we needed a CB at the time? I certainly didn't

At Fullback we had:
1. Johnson: England 1st choice RB and very capable LB
2. Kelly: England international and backup RB
3. Enrique: Very highly regarded LB

I wanted a LB that could play LW or DM but I was in the minority. A lot had faith in Robinson, others felt Johnson could handle it with Kelly at RB if Enrique was out. I honestly think it would have been a ridiculous decision to build from the back. IMO we had what I consider a world class defense, I think Rodgers made a misjudgement about the DM position but the defence IMO was not the area to focus on when he arrived.

[Mutton Geoff]

Dont we know it, last week we're talking about the possibility of champions league, now we're shite with an average manager

Got to be patient, overall we're moving in the right direction.

first line would be the same people no grey areas for them its all shit or bust.

second line is what the majority in here think ! Quite right too.

[JackWard33]

Now my question would be Clarke had them organised at the back well, we let him go, (massive mistake there) but who is actually the defensive guru now do we even have one?

This is the biggest problem at the club right now.
Rodgers is a good young coach, clearly driven and intelligent and his footballing ideas are a good fit for the club. However around him he has the former Swansea backroom staff.....and that's it
He may like them - he may trust them but its hard to believe they're the people to take us back to the upper echelons of the league.
As has often been discussed there's very little 'footballing' expertise at the club outside BR and his coaches which is another problem
Probably the biggest most important signing we could make this summer would be an experienced assistant manager

[El Lobo]

you could say that and also say why did he change the way the defence played at the back,

 How many of our goals early on came about from dodgy passing around the box, trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse instantly. Defenders get confidence from clean sheets how many did we have before xmas? When the goals fly in defenders stop doing what comes naturally to them and get nervous and microanalyse every part of their game and sometimes look to fix what isn't broken. Also Defenders this season have not been helped by a tissue strength midfield in front of them.

Now my question would be Clarke had them organised at the back well, we let him go, (massive mistake there) but who is actually the defensive guru now do we even have one?

Well he wanted to get us playing a different way and saw our defensive record and attacking record and thought thats what needed most immediate attention.

Remember Rafas first season? Signed Alonso, Garcia, Morientes, Nunez. Spent very, very little of his budget on defensive players, and those were stop-gaps. Season after, he prioritised a lot of his budget to defensive players (Reina, Agger, Sissoko).

Now personally I'd say that Rafa, certainly at the time, was a better coach than Rodgers and probably a better judge of players. But its not uncommon for managers to start with the attack.

[10 Yards Offside]

Our priorty this summer has to be backup to Lucas - someone who can play instead of him and bring what Lucas brings, but also alongside him..

I worry Rodgers cannot see this, as he continues with Allen who clearly cannot play that role and he is killing the lads confidence contiuning down that path.

It was tactical niavity again, why isn't he learning about that very very basic lesson?

Sorry to only comment about this in such a rich thread, but am I really alone in feeling that in terms of a player whom you can trust to play alongside Lucas and still create AND fill in for him when he's out, Allen is pretty much as close to it as it gets?

Honestly the Lucas role, the single pivot role is INCREDIBLY difficult to play and most defensive midfielders in the world can't because they lack the positional acumen. Allen has decent positional sense and a good tackle on him. I don't really see a player who is capable of playing the single pivot role to a decent standard AND adding another dimension while playing alongside Lucas.

Allen is good enough to be a defensive midfielder in a double pivot, I think for example Allen-Henderson would work pretty fine when Lucas is out. Do you see a top-class player content with sitting on the bench when Lucas is fit?

[Mutton Geoff]

You say he should have built from the back but in August last summer what exactly was wrong with the back? 
We had 4 CB's with a good record:
1. Skrtel: Our player of the season
2. Agger: Arguably the best CB
3. Carragher: Proven defender and vice Captain
4. Coates: Young player of Copa America

With Skrtel and Agger returning from the Euro's how much time did he get to look at them? Would you have thought we needed a CB at the time? I certainly didn't

At Fullback we had:
1. Johnson: England 1st choice RB and very capable LB
2. Kelly: England international and backup RB
3. Enrique: Very highly regarded LB

I wanted a LB that could play LW or DM but I was in the minority. A lot had faith in Robinson, others felt Johnson could handle it with Kelly at RB if Enrique was out. I honestly think it would have been a ridiculous decision to build from the back. IMO we had what I consider a world class defense, I think Rodgers made a misjudgement about the DM position but the defence IMO was not the area to focus on when he arrived.

Build from the back is not just the selection its the way you ask them to play, he tried to turn them into a short passing defence around their own box waiting for the other team to leave gaps for an outlet pass, but we didnt and still do not have defenders who can do that with great competence.

You are right when he arrived the defence didn't look like it needed fixing, but he changed the way he wanted them to play and now it needs fixing.
Maybe he should have been a little bit more pragmatic and not  tried to change things from day one. Funny enough the defender who adapted best to his short passing style was the one i least expected to be able to, shame he is retiring.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

/snip/

Now my question would be Clarke had them organised at the back well, we let him go, (massive mistake there) but who is actually the defensive guru now do we even have one?

There's no point having a defensive coach who relies on the team playing a different system (essentially a two lines of four low block counterattacking side).

/snip/

Now personally I'd say that Rafa, certainly at the time, was a better coach than Rodgers and probably a better judge of players. But its not uncommon for managers to start with the attack.

Yep exactly - we addressed the needs of the team in the correct order - we were left with the hangover of a malfunctioning midfield and attack bolted onto Rafa's defensive unit from Lucas backwards (excreting Enrique) - a unit that had been in the top three or four defensively for the past few seasons.

If Brendan had spent a substantial part of his first two transfer budgets on replacing players at the back there would have been bedlam on here - and rightly so.