Author Topic: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs  (Read 26648 times)

Offline skooma

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2013, 03:54:23 am »
Great to have finally beaten a top 3 side!

Offline Flinstone

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2013, 07:21:43 am »
im surprised at some people being negative about 2 in midfield.

I think it's a great way to move forward especially in the premiership where very few teams set up with 3 in the centre.

I think that playing 2 in the centre vs a team playing 3 in the centre can be countered in 2 ways:

1)  having a player who can beat people for fun in the centre of the park. someone exactly like dembele.

2) the player behind the striker needs to really help the midfield as well as providing a attacking threat. reports say we're looking at eriksen who fits the bill perfectly. personally i wish we would go the first route as we'll miss the width downing or whoever will give us but i can understand the logic and suarez played right for ajax i think.


anyhow exciting days ahead and again dembele- what a fucking player and he plays with his collar popped

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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2013, 07:23:04 am »
Some really interesting and stimulating posts in this thread. TV Pundit analysts - who needs 'em when these guys are posting such quality comments?

One thing I did notice that's kind of missing though is while there are plenty of comments recognising the football club's inability to splash the cash any time soon - which always has to be linked of course with the attendant risks of getting ANY big cash splash radically wrong - there's very little mention of WHO and WHERE are the youngsters who ought to be up and coming to help resolve problem positions.

I know there's a youngsters separate thread - and perhaps all the likely possibles are in there.
But logic tells me if there's a live and vibrant thread and it identifies an issue like lack of funds for any replacement/improvement problems, isn't it the natural thing to move on to explore what options the Academy system and reserves are bringing through as a more uplifting topic than simply bemoaning the fact that LFC are skint? Just a comment like.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 07:26:03 am by Johnnowhite »
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline spider-neil

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2013, 08:09:49 am »
This was an excellent game and the neutral would have enjoyed it I'm sure.

Just a few observation (as I saw it);

A) Sturridge
Daniel, strikes me as the type of striker that needs attackers as close to him as possible. He was getting isolated because the midfield was so deep and you could tell he was getting frustrasted. It's noticeable that Sturridge was becoming more effective late in the game, maybe that was because the Spurs defense began to tire but I think that was due to Allen allowing the midfield to play a little further up the pitch, giving Sturridge more support.

Also I think Sturridge played a little within himself due to his recent thigh injury. Daniel miscontrolled our first attack of the game with a heavy first touch, we've seen Sturridge control far more difficult balls played into him. Also we've seen him skin defenders and they were keeping pace with him. Hopefully the weeks rest and training will see Sturridge at his best again.

B) Our Defensive line
I think we dropped too deep as a unit, Bale or no Bale. You don't curtail your strengths (attack) to negate the oppersition strengths. We needed to push at least 10 yards further up the pitch to give more support to the attackers. I also think pushing the defense (and in turn midfield) closer to the attackers would have allowed us to more effectively press as a unit. As it was, there were too many gaps across the pitch so the midfield had too much ground to cover to track runs and the attack was isolated allowing the likes of Dembele to have a field day. Dembele is a very good midfielder but we definately gave him room to room the show, he was no where near as effective when Allen entered the fray.

Being higher up the pitch would also have pushed Spurs out of our box because currently set pieces and crosses is a major concern. It would have been brave (to push up) but I think we would have performed better as a team and agained a little more control of the midfield.

C) Going two in the middle
To my mind was SUICIDE. You had Parker and Dembele, two midfielders that are strong, athletic and both possess the ability to ghost past players whilst running with the ball. We were completely and utterly dominated in midfield and we knew it would happen with only Gerrard and Lucas sheilding the defense. I doubt you would have seen 10 fan teamsheets going with two in the middle against Spurs.
When Spurs went 2-1 up I honestly didn't see a way for Liverpool to get back into the game, our midfield wasn't getting a sniff and it looked far more likely that Spurs would get a 3rd goal before we got a 2nd which almost happened with Bale's lung bursting run.

Until we are defending as high up the pitch as poosible, thereby allowing packs of 3 to hunt for the ball, or until we see the return of pre injury Lucas (where it seemed like he was everywhere at once) then we have to go 3 in the middle against top sides or you will see us get dominated in midfield again. We got very very lucky with Gylfi fluffing his lines and Walker having moment of madness.

D) 4 in attack
I've just had a bit of a moan with regards to 2 in the middle, but I will conceed that for 20 minutes at the start of the game we were a very effective attacking unit and with a better first touch from Daniel could have been 2 nil up within 15 minutes. Against lower teams intent on parking the bus (therefore not committing bodies up the pitch) 4 in attack may be a very effective way of breaking them down. 4 players (Sturridge, Downing, Coutinho, Suarez) all capable of running at the defense and stretching teams. A very exciting prospect, but against top team we need to drop one of them for a more traditional midfielder.

Special mentions for;
Suarez, for his magical finish.
Coutinho, who looks everything like the number 10 we have been missing for so long.
Downing, who was direct and purposeful and with intelligence to start his run in anticipation of Walker's fuck up.

Offline wah00ey

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2013, 09:05:10 am »
Great game and a few things stand out for me.

The understanding between Enrique, Coutinho and Sturridge down the left is a pleasure to behold, just as it was when Enrique scored a couple of weeks back.  We seem to play a completely different brand of football down the left as we do down the right.  Downing had a good game and gave Johnson some protection which he needed - looks like he needs a rest to me as Enrique did earlier in the season.

Kudos to Rodgers for the substitution this time.  I've criticised him in the past over this aspect of his management but he got it spot on this time.  It was also brave to start with the lineup we did, it worked though as we got the early goal and maybe could have got another one before half tme with that setup.

We need a Dembele type player I feel. He's a Lucas defensively but offers more bombing forward.  I'd like to see Lucas make more forward runs, I do remember him doing this previously and chipping in wih a couple of goals.

I atually thought Sturridge looked sharp but there was too big a gap between Luis and him.  He was nearly picked out with some decent long balls though and against slower teams than Spurs the gap between him and Luis can be smaller.

Sturridge's swan dive was embarassing.  There was plenty of contact but he made it look like he was shot in midair with an Elephant gun.  Interesting that MOTD2 didn't pick up on this or the blatant simulation of the chimp but chose to do their very best to less than subtly damage the increasing claims of Suarez for player of the season.
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Offline ricflairandy

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #85 on: March 12, 2013, 09:10:23 am »
Im still amazed that no media picked up on the parker stamp. If that was suarez, they would be up in arms.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2013, 09:22:58 am »
"and gave Johnson some protection which he needed - looks like he needs a rest to me as Enrique did earlier in the season."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

See this astonishes me. Isn't this his job - isn't it in fact ALL of their jobs? What else do today's players - ALL today's Premiership players - do day in and day out except train for match day. They have excellent facilities where they can work out under every conceivable modern medical monitoring device to check they aren't over-doing it and that they are optimising their energies. They have first class dieticians ensuring they stay in shape on the beer-belly front. They have the very best of everything laid out on a plate for them. They are paid a bloody fortune - and in my opinion there's precious few of them these days that can actually hold their heads up to justify what they give for having such a life.

None of 'em have ever had to nor will they ever have to get up at 4.30am to get ready for a hard day's graft in the rapidly diminishing factories of Britain, or the shipyards or the docks or down the pits.

I am genuinely confused that whenever any player shows the occasional loss of concentration in their game or a lapse or whatever, someone suggests they need a rest. From what exactly ?

Genuinely, from what do they need a rest? Doing their job? FFS - what less can they possibly do ? it's their bloody job of work!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 09:26:33 am by Johnnowhite »
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline wah00ey

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2013, 09:53:18 am »

I am genuinely confused that whenever any player shows the occasional loss of concentration in their game or a lapse or whatever, someone suggests they need a rest. From what exactly ?

Genuinely, from what do they need a rest? Doing their job? FFS - what less can they possibly do ? it's their bloody job of work!
The term "rest" doesn't just apply physically, it applies mentally too.  I think he's in the middle of a poor run of form and what do you do to resolve this? - either play him through it or drop him.  I think it's got to the point where he needs to be dropped, just like Enrique was.  He's now managed to regain his form don't you think?

Johnson is out of form for some reason - he's carrying an injury perhaps?  Or he's unsettled for some reason?  It happens in all sports, tennis, golf, athletics for example.  We're talking about athletes performing at the very highest level here.  If Johnson operated at 95% of his potential rather than 100% he'll get found out every week.  If he was down the pits and had an off day at 95% - well, I don't think that's the same thing is it?
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2013, 10:04:50 am »
I understand the terminology you're using mate - but for me, all the stuff you're citing here like carrying an injury, mentally tired etc is 100% monitored. I was really struggling to accept your original words "he needs a rest", hence my reply.

If you'd said "He's out of form and needs to be dropped" that would have been different. 

And on a final note, surely the person best placed to make any fit for purpose call is Brendan Rodgers no?
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline wah00ey

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2013, 10:16:31 am »
I understand the terminology you're using mate - but for me, all the stuff you're citing here like carrying an injury, mentally tired etc is 100% monitored. I was really struggling to accept your original words "he needs a rest", hence my reply.

If you'd said "He's out of form and needs to be dropped" that would have been different. 

And on a final note, surely the person best placed to make any fit for purpose call is Brendan Rodgers no?
We'll never know - the decision at the moment is that a 95% (or whatever) Johnson is being chosen ahead of the other options and we're not party to the reasons for that.  I'm not questioning the team selection here - I have a lot of time for Johnson - just pointing out all does not seem right with him and there's an argument he could have done better with both Spuds goals.
Look up "Odious" in the dictionary and Martin Samuel is the given definition.  Call me Klopphooey please.

Offline MightyRedLFC

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2013, 10:28:54 am »
Maybe not a great game, but a great win for us. I must admit, I was worried when we went 2-1 down. We seem to have quite a few players hitting form at the same time, which is fantastic. On a side note, I wonder how many people(especially in the media) will be calling Bale a blatant cheat, for his clutching his face when barely touched on the shoulder theatrics?

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2013, 10:36:06 am »
In fairness, footballers run about a lot. They probably do the equivalent of a marathon over a week with training and a couple of matches. And Glen Johnson has played a lot for us this season, and England.

Players form drops over a season, it happens. RVP has scored, what, once in his last seven/eight games? I don't think Johnson is playing significantly worse than the rest of the season, he's recently made a couple of errors against quality players who will punish you and they have done. Plus his main competition for RB has been injured all season and he's frequently filled in at LB too. He's played a lot this season.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Mykez

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2013, 10:46:56 am »
Just want to say that that victory was one of the most satisfying victories in quite some time. There was just something about that game that made me feel that we needed it. The fans, the squad, everyone. We needed that victory. And although it would be tough to say that we were the better squad for 90 minutes, we deserved that victory. For all of those dumb mistakes we made this season (Man City x2, Arsenal), it was nice to finally get one that was in our favor. When Stevie stepped up to shoot that penalty, I was afraid he was going to miss. But how could I ever doubt our captain? I immediately thought, don't shoot bottom left, Lloris knows you're going that way. Sure enough, Lloris dove straight that way but Stevie went the other way. Man, that was the happiest I had felt this season.

From being 2-1 down and showing the resilience and the character, the mental strength to keep fighting when we were down…it was so nice to see. Something that we all had been questioning. But, alas, we overcame it. That last 5 minutes and stoppage time were some of the longest minutes. And in that last minute, when you could hear You'll Never Walk Alone being sung…it gave me chills. It gave me hope. Even though this season has been quite the roller coaster, hearing that made me feel like it's going to be okay. We will steadily keep improving and hopefully keep up the good results even going into next season. I felt proud to be a Red.


Anyway, did you feel Allen coming on shifted the balance?

Allen helped tremendously. We couldn't keep that ball at all for a good part of the game before Joe came on, and he allowed us to retain the possession much more. What I like about Joe Allen is that, even when he makes a bad pass or him being in bad form recently, he's never afraid of having the ball. He always makes himself available and is never afraid to get the ball, hold it, dribble it, and then distribute. His confidence is a good thing to see. The Allen-Lucas-Gerrard midfield is quite the trio. Too bad Allen is going to be out for 3 months, but I feel Jordan Henderson is more than capable of filling his shoes.

Did we just need that little bit of luck that's deserted us all season?

It was nice. Afterwards, you see the Spurs fans complaining about how they wouldn't have lost the match if it wasn't for stupid mistakes and all that jazz. But stupid mistakes have been happening to us ALL season. I'm glad it didn't happen this game.

Did Suarez merit his man of the match ahead of Vertonghen?

While Vertonghen played a fantastic game, I don't see how you can give a man of the match award to a player whose team lost. Suarez played really well and was responsible for 2 of our 3 goals. He is one of a kind.

Is Bale human?

Suarez >

Offline .Mike

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2013, 11:12:39 am »
Quote
It was a real roller coaster ride, wasn't it?
It really was and it gave way to perhaps my most enjoyable game at Anfield all season. We managed to get through the ride but we were very fortuitous in the gifts that was the penalty (Defoe and Assou-Ekotto basically gifted it to us) and the Downing goal which was horrific defending from Walker and Lloris producing his best Gomes impression since he joined Spurs.

I do feel the game was summed up by defensive suicide from both sides. The high line which Spurs played allowed a lot of space for the likes of Sturridge to exploit. This was evidenced in the opening moments where Coutinho played him through and he really should of scored. In contrast, our shaky defence had shown that the partnership of Carragher and Agger suffers from the lack of an aerially dominant centre back. Our defending from set pieces was nothing short of horrific and it highlights how much we have missed a Sami Hyppia like centre back in the last few season. Someone in the mould of Vertonghen or Ashley Williams is definitely needed in the summer with Carra, Coates and maybe even Skrtel in leaving the club.

Quote
I said before the game that the midfield was a worry, and for me that's how it panned out. It was a very attacking line up indeed. But for the first 20, we really tore into them - is that the evidence of pressing coming to the fore starting to manifest itself, I wonder? And we pegged them back pretty well, bar the Bale free kick effort really.
The pressing was fantastic in the first twenty minutes, Spurs hardly got a sniff but we simply dropped off. I was much more impressed with their pressing and possession play. We hardly dominated the midfield after the goal and Dembele bossed things in the middle with Lucas and Gerrard being too occupied with Bale. You seen the difference when Allen came on - Dembele's influence on the game dropped off straight away.

Quote
The Suarez goal was a treat, but we had a few moments where we might have capitalised - Downing almost nipped in front of Loris early on and you wondered if their high line would prove too kamikaze.
Same with the Sturridge chance which I mentioned earlier. Sturridge should of had at least one in the first half, I feel it would of been a much easier second half if we had capitalised in our dominance in the first 25 minutes.

Quote
From the point when we scored, we had a long tentative spell, and for me it stemmed from the midfield, and their physicality and drive being allowed the time and space it needed to emerge. A stupid goal to give away before half time, as was their second really, but give Bale that kind of time to deliver a ball...
The first goal was suicidal defending - I can understand letting Bale having that much space as he had just been of the field, but the fact he has a licence to roam under AVB's system makes him very very difficult to pick him up. I think Lucas and Gerrard did a great job on him.

Quote
Anyway, did you feel Allen coming on shifted the balance?
He definitely shifted the balance of play and gave us that combativeness in the midfield - especially since he is playing through that shoulder injury. I enjoy Rodgers substitutional usually as they usually bring a shift in tactics in the game rather than it being just a man for man substitution. When we brought Allen on it gave us a three man midfield and allowed us to press Dembele akin to what we were doing in the first twenty minutes.

Quote
Did we just need that little bit of luck that's deserted us all season?
Of course. We haven't got the luck in the big games this season. City at home with the horrific back passes and mistakes in the away fixture, United with the very questionable sending off and the Arsenal away game as well. We play brilliantly but haven't got the results we deserved - but that's not really a valid excuse as we are often our own downfall in games. It was nice to see us come back after conceding at home - the character transformation of players such as Downing from where we were about a year ago is amazing.

Quote
Did Suarez merit his man of the match ahead of Vertonghen?
No. Vertoghen was fantastic and we've seen Suarez play better this season. I would of had Downing or Gerrard ahead of him in our performances this game.

Quote
Is Bale human?
That burst of acceleration to outrun Gerrard was amazing - never seen anyone do that before. He is near bionic in terms of athleticism but overall I thought we kept him pretty quiet.

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2013, 11:22:30 am »
Someone in the mould of Vertonghen or Ashley Williams is definitely needed in the summer

Do you think they are the same 'mould'? I'd have thought they present two contrasting moulds.
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Offline .Mike

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2013, 12:01:58 pm »
Do you think they are the same 'mould'? I'd have thought they present two contrasting moulds.
Far from it but they both have two things in common that they are a presence in the box as well as from set plays. They are both good with the ball at their feet aswell.

Offline Kicked_Into_Touch

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2013, 12:10:44 pm »
Do you think they are the same 'mould'? I'd have thought they present two contrasting moulds.

maybe the same mould, but one is made of platinum, the other copper.

Offline John Zac

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2013, 12:12:06 pm »
Far from it but they both have two things in common that they are a presence in the box as well as from set plays. They are both good with the ball at their feet aswell.

Vertonghen was made to look a beast in the box by our defender's poor positioning and aerial ability.
I think Ashley William's aerial win ratio is less than 55%. I would say Williams is a defender in the Carra mould, with a better ball playing ability and interception rate.

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2013, 12:12:57 pm »
maybe the same mould, but one is made of platinum, the other copper.

I was going to say one is a cultured player and one is an uncultured but effective player.
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Offline Alf

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2013, 01:31:40 pm »
Defensively we were poor and I felt that Gylfi Þór Sigurðsson could easily have doubled their scoreline. However we demonstrated great character to get back into a game it looked like we'd thrown away. Allen coming on changed the balance while I couldn't understand why Sturridge was playing because he didn't look anywhere near fit. Coutinho has a fantastic touch  but looks lightweight reminiscent of Luis Garcia. Downing did a great job of exploiting the space they were leaving on the flank while Steven Gerrard looked back to his best. Great assist from Enrique and another quality finish from Suarez. Hopefully Pepe Reina will be back for Southampton on Saturday.

Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2013, 02:26:58 pm »
Maybe I loved us under Benitez too much, maybe I'm just a shithouse, but I think we are better when we try to control a game than when we just open up the game with a 2 man midfield.

Still not quite got the balance right, although a sharper Sturridge and we could have been out of sight by half time.

It is gratifying to see us keep going against a good side after going behind and demonstrate character. That will serve us well.

Also, we are so desparate for an aerially dominant central defender it's not funny. Far too many cheap gaols because of this. Even Spurs are bullying us with high balls onto the 6 yard line.


Loads of progress made over the last 3-4 months, though. Just a bit of fine tuning and confident we can have a good 2013-14.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2013, 02:37:25 pm »
Is Bale human?
Do you mean this in a "he is very good" kind of way or "he looks like a gibbon" kind of way?


Bale today


...and in his younger days, proving the accuracy of the Spurs fans' song, "born to play for Tottenham".

Either way, doubtful.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 02:42:50 pm by Red number seven »
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2013, 02:43:46 pm »
Maybe I loved us under Benitez too much, maybe I'm just a shithouse, but I think we are better when we try to control a game than when we just open up the game with a 2 man midfield.

I know exactly what you mean, but from a results point of view he's probably looking at us at the moment and thinking that we're scoring a lot of goals from different areas and winning games, so why change it?

Same with Carra > Skrtel. I'm sure Skrtel could come back in and maybe make us tighter, but why change it if it aint broke?

We're very potent atm.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2013, 02:43:56 pm »
Gylfi Þór Sigurðsson
Wow. I'm impressed.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2013, 03:31:39 pm »
Where is he?

Come on POP sort yourself out son.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2013, 06:25:45 pm »
First off, compliments to all for the quality of the thread so far. Now for the dregs.

 :wave

As so many have alluded to, the game was a huge one in terms of its significance for both teams. Less so I guess for Spurs as they’ve a cushion in their top four pursuit. But still, they were desperate to win. No mistake. Not simply, as goes without saying, that they still crave and need the points but perhaps just as much to prove their pedigree and what they now probably quite rightly regard as their superiority against the team they have, in essence, shoved out [by default of Moores, Hicks and Gillett] at the higher echelon of the Premier league.

And so it would not require an army of statisticians to detect that they gave more than their all to secure the win they felt was theirs – by right; by the very definition of the accomplished team they’ve become. In that context, the defeat will have hurt them far more badly than would seem from their manager’s post match demeanour to be the case.

Despite Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas’s overt nonchalance, nay, ambivalence in those post match interviews he and his team will be reeling after seeing the win prised from such firm grasp. The solid bedrock of the victory they simply knew they’d garnered crumbling to dust in that final quarter. Credit to the man for such a refreshing outward impression of pure Martin Jol calm but inside his guts will have been in turmoil. Minced to fuck.

For us - this team [compared to Spurs] very much in its formative stages of development under a manager the same age as my own son [still staggering enough for me let alone my dear son to try and take in] - it was a win of quite epic proportions. Both in its purest sense of bagging three precious points but more in the manner in which those points were procured against a team as good as any we’ve seen at Anfield in a long time.

But before I expound further on the significance of this latter point let me go back to the final whistle. To the show of outward frustration of Dembele and, to a lesser extent, Parker. And to the reality of my own marked analytical shortcomings despite over half a century of watching this blessed game.

Sure I was snarling and ranting at both of them from my front row Main Stand birds eye view of their respective fits of pique. The affrontery of those pair of arrogant cocknee bastards. Who the fuck do they think they are kicking up such a fuss in front of main stand patrons such as us?! Yet inside, for all my yelling and gesturing, I knew the real score. I could easily rationalise why they were throwing those toys out of the pram. Their superior team had lost. Somehow they had thrown away a game they had been lording. Their frustration was inevitable.

Especially Dembele. Dembele who had seen his nemesis on the day – our wonderful niggling Luis who’d got right up his cockerel nose - get the vital match winning penalty. Dembele who had been outstanding. Whose control and balance was as good as you’ll ever see. Throw in a steely determination to contest every ball and an athletic prowess to run forever and you’ve one hell of a midfield player who for chunks of the game had seemed to run the show. So, yeah, I could see why he was in a state.

It’s funny at the match sometimes. You think you’re taking it all in. You come away thinking you’ve got it sorted in terms of how it panned out. Which team deserved it. Who was great. Who was shit. Who was so-so. The reality is there are certain big games when you’re so completely immersed in the drama and emotion that your objective analytical lens goes entirely to fuck.

We came out of the ground on Sunday convinced we’d got away with it. Thrilled to bits with the victory yet thankful that for once the gods had decreed fate to flop favourably upon us. Most around seemed of like mind. Not in that way you sometimes get when someone plays down the winner and plays up the loser merely for the sake of playing up the loser and playing down the winner to appear super cool – which really does get on your tits. But rather in honest frank appraisals of how each felt the game went. Spurs, the better side, unlucky on the day. Us, snatching the win. Yeah, sure...

...What a load of utter bollocks. How wrong can you actually be about a simple game of footie?

Okay, so slight exaggeration. Only a bit wrong. But wrong all the same. Watching the match through last night I was delighted to see that far from fluking it, we had actually very much deserved our win. 

The seeming blanket of domination with which Spurs had stealthily and steadily draped over us – which for a time had actually extended to our front row seats and threatened to smother the life out of us never mind the red men on the pitch - had actually lasted for no more than 25 minutes. Sure it was a spell of superiority not to be sniffed at. To be hugely admired actually. Nor were Spurs exactly missing in action for the remaining parts of the game as Sigurdsson’s spurned opportunity down the Kop end amongst various other episodes so clearly demonstrated.

Yet in terms of its overall significance in a game that actually lasted for 96 minutes, it had somehow managed to transform itself into an optical illusion. Fuelled perhaps by that spell after they scored their second, when we truly were floundering, it had created this perception of an undeserved Liverpool victory for many Reds at the game including yours truly. 

Yet playback was to unveil a somewhat different far more palatable representation, prompting the question of how had all us nouveau Tottenham aficionados come to discount so readily all those beautiful attacking surges with which the Reds had peppered the game and the Spurs defence during the time when Spurs weren’t quite so prominent?

Was it down to the frantic intensity of a game in which we’re so involved, so desperate for us to prevail that we instantly move on from each of our good plays, automatically invoking an intrinsic Pythonesque ‘but apart from all that wonderful attacking football what have the Redmen ever done for us during this 96 minutes’ stance which distorts our perceptions. Until, that is, we get to see it all again in the cold light of day armed with the comforting reassurance that victory is already ours.

Fucked if I know.

Whatever the case what I do know is that watching it back was something to be savoured. Sure in overall terms it was simply a terrific game of football but I’m talking more about our part in it.

First the opening 25 minute long thrill of our back to the ‘60’s 4-2-4 formation as we threatened to tear this unequivocally top class opposition a new arsehole, scoring a goal to rank with any and narrowly missing out on making or taking clear opportunities on four or five other occasions. Such penetration doesn’t just happen. It takes qualities that are now beginning to surge through the individual and collective mindsets of our players.

Then there was the resolute manner in which we survived Tottenham’s advances during their seemingly endless mid match purple patch. Sure for a 5-10 minute spell after their second goal we were seeing stars – not just footballing ones in white shirts - and sure they did almost breach us several times apart from the Sigurdsson post opportunity from that sensational Bale surge and unfeasible cross. But that is the name of the game when you’re a team like ours up against opposition of this class and with a second scoring set piece of the day they have just unhinged you and scrambled your collective team brain .

Standing out above all was the belief which seemed to return once Brendan Rodgers had brought on the reinvigorated Joe Allen - dicky shoulder and all it would now seem – to redress the midfield imbalance. Which Little Joe did. Splendidly. So much so that for that closing 25 minutes or so we managed not only to regain our composure but to look this quality team straight in the face and turn the course of the game back in our direction. True, in the final analysis, our goals owed lord and lady luck a doffing of our red and white bobble hats courtesy of Walker’s brainstorm and Defoe’s big toe. But what the hell. The point is we had re-purchased our tickets for the big draw. We were back in the raffle with slightly more tickets than them and our number came up.

Fuckin well in Red men. Well in Brendan. Very proud. Very optimistic.

 :)     
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 06:32:11 pm by Timbo's Goals »

Offline stockdam

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2013, 07:31:25 pm »
Well in Brendan. Very proud. Very optimistic.

Nice post.
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Offline John C

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2013, 07:43:27 pm »

maybe the same mould, but one is made of platinum, the other copper.
But what you're saying is anything is better than lead  ;D


Without speculating about transfers, more about BR's judgement, what will be interesting is when not if we buy a CB. Its a rhetorical question - but is work under-way to secure one within days of the season ending or will BR made a more measured judgement over the summer, albeit there are no big tournaments.

Offline Kicked_Into_Touch

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2013, 08:20:02 pm »
But what you're saying is anything is better than lead  ;D


Without speculating about transfers, more about BR's judgement, what will be interesting is when not if we buy a CB. Its a rhetorical question - but is work under-way to secure one within days of the season ending or will BR made a more measured judgement over the summer, albeit there are no big tournaments.

can't say i see any benefit to waiting....

Offline -Daws-

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2013, 08:21:07 pm »
Well, wish I’d have had a cheeky fiver on that as I predicted a 3-2 victory and a Suarez opener, but never had the chance to get down the betting shop due to having football myself and seeing the old girl before heading to the pub to catch the game.

Good though wasn’t it? To finally get the proverbial monkey off our backs and beat a team that is further up the table than us. It was a battling, gutsy performance without actually being our best at Anfield this season. IMO we were far superior against United and City than we were yesterday and only came out with a point between those two matches. Some of the passing was good, certain players had good games, others bad, but what is important is that we not only took three points from the game, but that we showed the mentality to come back against a top side and not roll over, and that ‘sign of champions’ by winning a game we probably didn’t have the right to.

Starting from the back, Brad has a tendency to make me almost chew my heart. Despite Pepe’s lack of form over the last, well three years or so, I always feel more confident when the big Spaniard is between the sticks than Jones. There were several efforts which he parried out into dangerous areas when he probably should have caught them and was fortunate to be bailed out by an alert defender prepared for the drop to save his skin. He also made one or two decent saves, but it’s clear that Agger and Carra look more comfortable knowing they have a footballing goalkeeper behind them in Pep rather than Brad when we have the ball in our own half; having said that he didn’t have any calamities, although I feel he only ever looks like one well struck shot away from one.

Johnson was decent, but not his swashbuckling best going forward. His defending from Bales cross though was extremely lacklustre; be brave and never, ever, turn your back on a cross. After it dropped behind Carraghers head, Glen should have done more to pressure Vertonghen who had pretty much a free header only a few yards from the goal. Could Jones have saved it? I think maybe a top ‘keeper on top form may have done, but it was a big ask.

Same can be said for Enrique on the opposite flank, who although at times looks clueless, is a force to be reckoned with given his strength and determination. Without being spectacular, he was fairly effective down our left flank.

I thought both Agger and Jamie were pretty good. Agger won more than his fair share of headers and Carragher swept up danger well and continues to show that he is still at a good level, even if he struggles to do it on as regular basis as he did yester year.

Lucas had as poorer game as I’ve seen him have in a red shirt, and I’ve probably been the lad’s biggest fan since he arrived at the club. Gave away about 5 sloppy passes and mistimed more than his fair share of tackles. He was absolutely superb against Zenit the other week, but today he looked a little leggy and off the boil. For a fairly long period we were overrun in the midfield and I felt that Henderson should have started ahead of Downing. In hindsight I may have got that wrong, as Downing played very well, but I think Lucas did struggle not having that energy ahead of him to make his job easier.

Gerrard was excellent I thought. Made his presence known all over the midfield and put the boot in whenever he could to make life difficult for Livermore and Parker. His passing was spot on for the majority and he ran the game well when we were in possession. He’s adopted the Xabi role very well, and despite his age and some people’s concerns (including my own re his central midfield role) we look a far better side with Stevie than without, especially when he is playing as well as he has during the last few months. This man is a leader, a world class player, and kept his nerve superbly for the penalty to win the game late in the second half.

Coutinho is magic isn’t he? That little bit of skill to keep the ball and move it down the line just before the goal was sublime, and the through ball to Jose when he received the ball back showed excellent vision and technique as well. The lad has an enchanted ability to turn on the ball whilst running and bring it into his stride effortlessly; allowing him to lift his head and see what surrounds him. Reminds me of Thierry Henry the way he pulls that off.  Obviously he faded second half, and it was clear we were only gunna’ get an hour out of him by half time, but he has shown plenty to be excited about in his short spell here so far.

Downing was excellent. Provided excellent levels of energy and tenacity down our right hand side and always looked like he wanted to beat his man and make something happen. Flashed an excellent cross past the 6 yard box which I think Philippe was probably fouled to prevent the young Brazillian from making contact and a simple tap in. Stewart was probably a little lucky the shot for the goal found its way between Vertonghens (was it him?)legs, but he had the guts to take it on rather than square it or shit himself like he may have done six months ago. Didn’t put him in my starting lineup as I say because I felt we would need Jordan’s influence tucked into the midfield, but I was proved well and truly wrong, and I love that. Keep up the good work Stewie, you’re beginning to show what you are really made of.

As for the front two, Suarez was his menacing self and took his goal brilliantly. I think Lloris was expecting a touch or maybe that Luis would swivel onto his right foot in order to get an effort on goal, instead Luis lifted his head, saw that the ‘keeper was in the process of setting himself and caught him out with a swift to poke into the near post. Lloris didn’t really stand much of a chance. Loved that goal as a whole after Coutinho’s part and a clever little slipped pass by Jose, very good stuff to witness.  As for Sturridge, as with Lucas I thought he was well off the pace. Had one golden opportunity where Coutinho played a delicious ball with the outside of his boot and into Daniels path with Lloris rushing out late to reach him. However, Sturridges touch was far too heavy and he forced himself wide. The sort of chance Luis would adore that with the opportunity to round the goalkeeper off, that.

The game itself was interesting.  Against other top sides this year we have played some excellent football at Anfield and dominated for long, long periods to little avail due to individual errors (I include referees in that )that have denied us the points we probably deserved. Today was different.

I was a little dismayed at the set up, as I alluded to earlier. With the absence of Lennon I thought it was fairly obvious that Dembele and Sigurdsson would play infield from wide areas, and that Lucas was going to have to spare a fair amount of his attention to Gareth Bale and forsake some other duties within the pressing game and whatnot. This left Gerrard almost alone in midfield at times with Lucas sticking to the roaming Bale and Parker and Livermore controlling the tempo with only Gerrard there to press and hassle them. Added to that Sigurdsson and Demble were drifting to their more natural central positions with the two full backs providing an outlet, giving our midfield duo even more issues to concern them. Lucas did a decent job of denying Bale any real space in behind him, but he was as poor in possession as I’ve ever seen him, possibly due to the fact we were outnumbered in midfield with their wide players cutting off routes to Coutinho and Downing, and Livermore and Parker patrolling the middle and allowing Gerrard or Suarez little space to receive the ball. Lucas was sloppy in possession as I say, but I think another midfield body in there would have given him the out-ball he needed and made life simpler for him.

Suarez as well, although a threat no matter where he plays, doesn’t quite give us the balance at the tip of our midfield we need, not unless we are going to pair Lucas with a more defensively able partner than Stevie to give us a solid base. With an aging Gerrard and a not yet fully fit Lucas, playing Suarez as our #10 makes us lightweight and vulnerable in midfield. Yes it worked against United second half with Gerrard and Allen at the base, but we were chasing a game United were trying to close out, which they did, and again that was after an over adventurous starting 11 which left us a mountain to climb. Against less able sides than Spurs at Anfield; teams that will just sit off and get behind the ball, then I can see the logic in dropping Suarez that bit deeper and being more ambitious with our attacking instincts to try and pick the lock, but really, against the Spurs, United’s and Chelsea’s of this world, Lucas and Gerrard need support in a midfield runner able tooffere an easy outlet and workhorse pressing ahead of them from the start if we plan on governing the game in order to get the points.

The first Spurs goal was down to three things, firstly the referee allowing Bale to enter the field during a period in play where the extra man from nowhere could and really did, benefit the visiting side. I’m not 100% sure on the rules regarding when you can allow a player to re-join the field of play and when you can’t etc, but it seems a little off to me that players can have the play stopped, and then return to the field at a vital time for their side. The second thing was Johnson, as I mentioned earlier. The third, which I didn’t notice until re watching the highlights on YouTube, was the fact that there were 5 white shirts in our penalty area and only 4 of ours. Yes Johno was at fault, but where was his support? It could have easily fallen to another Spurs man and they’d have scored, as they had two men unmarked in our 18 yard box, which is as extraordinary as it is concerning.

Their second, again from a wide area, was all a bit of a display of disarray. The ball came from a deeper position and Carragher only half won the initial header, which bounced off Agger, fell kindly to Vertonghen who rearranged his feet in a manner that Robin Van Persie would be proud of and finished superbly, assisted by Johnson tripping over a worm and ending up on his arse. Again our defending from set pieces (or wide areas in general) looked lacking, and there seems to be an absence of responsibility adopted by some key players and again it seemed to have cost us. At this point I was wondering whether we’d lose our spirit and any slight grip we had on the game, thankfully I was mistaken.

Here I am complaining when we just got our best result against a top four side this season, it’s a terrific feat to finally achieve that and from a losing position shows how far we have come. The turning point of course was the introduction of Joe Allen.

Coutinho as I say had a good game, but the balance the side lacked due to the set up was suddenly rectified by the appearance of the young Welshman. Joe came and played ahead of Lucas and Stevie, a slanted three man midfield with Lucas the deepest, Gerrard just ahead of him to the right and Allen ahead of him slightly to the left gave us the stability to control the tempo that we had been crying out for in the middle of the park. Suarez then played from the wide left position and pinned Kyle Walker back, not only stopping him from playing and providing the outlet for Spurs, but indeed leading to the mistake which played Stewart Downing in. Once that went in we turned the tide and took charge; only one side looked capable winning thereafter.

The penalty for me was pretty clear cut. A clumsy challenge on a deft player and the referee is rightly pointing to the spot. It’s not the first we could have had but it was possibly the clearest. Stevie, cummoth the hour etc etc, well done.

Overall I am delighted not just with the three points, nor the performance, but the manner in which we won. To come behind against a very good side with one of the best players in the league leading the charge is more than commendable when you consider how mentally fragile we have appeared at times when the wind blows against us. The Barca style control, tempo, and ability didn’t look there Sunday, but the United winning mentality, the fire in players eyes and bellies alike, that desire and never say die attitude, the confidence that we are still the side in the ascendency despite the score line and the pure and simple will and expectancy to win, these are massive qualities. There’s been little doubt that with the talent we have we should still be a side more than capable of challenging for the top four, and yes results have gone against us, but all too often we have beaten ourselves, missed chances and made individual errors both on the pitch and touchline, but now we have shown we are capable,we do believe in ourselves, and we are Liverpool Football Club. We will not walk alone.
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Offline jason67

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2013, 08:52:10 pm »
Some absolute belting posts in this thread, really enjoy reading these Round Tables.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2013, 09:54:02 pm »
Some absolute belting posts in this thread, really enjoy reading these Round Tables.

Agreed.  One of the best round tables ever I think.  Superb effort folks.
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Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2013, 10:09:43 pm »
As above, some quality posts in this thread.

Been summarised by these posts above so pointless regurgitating the same points in too much detail.  The disappointment of losing the shape and intensity at 1-0 up was more than matched by the satisfaction of the way we grafted to get back into it and then claim the three points.  Not often we have ground a win out this season so nice to do so.

There has to be a time when we learn to play with the advantage and I'm getting more and more confident that we will.  Our confidence and belief will grow.

Let's forget about all this top four talk and concentrate on getting 3 points against Southampton.  Onwards and very much, upwards.  Well done lads!

Oh, and Dembele is a bell - but also a quite handy player too.

Offline RayPhilAlan

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2013, 10:38:33 pm »
Just a couple of things I noticed that don't seem to have been mentioned elsewhere:

For all the talk about Johnson's dip in form, our first goal started at his feet. He was blocked in deep in our half, with all the obvious passes cut out by Spurs players. He could have just whacked it down the line and hoped, but instead he sees the space infield and sets off running. Fullbacks don't do that in their defensive areas, you don't run across the goal. But he was quite right, this was the occasion where you can break the rule, and he set off with Sigurdsson or Bale or someone snapping at his heels but never getting close to the ball, and then he put it into space where Coutinho was going to get it. Our whole right side was congested and defended well by Spurs, and Johnson got the ball to where we had space. Goal.

Secondly, I loved the ending of the game, after Stevie's winner. Spurs were tiring, sure, although I don't think that's just attributable to them having played a team pretending to be Inter Milan - it was also attributable to them having had to work every second of the game to match us. But they're a team that's scored a lot of late goals recently, and they kicked off intent on finding another. Then Henderson came on. What I loved seeing was the swarm that was our 4 central midfielders advancing in a wave at every Spurs attempt to build something. You might be able to get past Lucas and Gerrard if you are a really really good team, but can you get past Allen and Henderson as well? Spurs couldn't.

Offline Golyo

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2013, 12:45:17 am »
I downloaded  the match to check out our second goal. Sturridge is definitely offside when Downing strikes the ball. So anyone saying he should have squared it is wrong. Actually it is quite impressive how Lloris manages to hassle Downing into taking the shot so quickly. Lloris is definitely among the best keepers in the PL, he recovered so quick after the initial mistake, and it certainly was not his fault alone that they gave the ball away.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2013, 01:12:33 am »
Timbo's goals, fantastic thought provoking post.
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Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2013, 01:18:27 am »
Overall I am delighted not just with the three points, nor the performance, but the manner in which we won. To come behind against a very good side with one of the best players in the league leading the charge is more than commendable when you consider how mentally fragile we have appeared at times when the wind blows against us. The Barca style control, tempo, and ability didn’t look there Sunday, but the United winning mentality, the fire in players eyes and bellies alike, that desire and never say die attitude, the confidence that we are still the side in the ascendency despite the score line and the pure and simple will and expectancy to win, these are massive qualities. There’s been little doubt that with the talent we have we should still be a side more than capable of challenging for the top four, and yes results have gone against us, but all too often we have beaten ourselves, missed chances and made individual errors both on the pitch and touchline, but now we have shown we are capable,we do believe in ourselves, and we are Liverpool Football Club. We will not walk alone.

Fantastic post, you said everything I thought about the game far better than I could.  This has been a great thread overall, some really interesting and insightful viewpoints on the game that opened my eyes to things I'd missed in my first viewing on Sunday.

Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2013, 01:58:26 am »
Timbo's goals, fantastic thought provoking post.
Seconded: top, top writing Alan. And from the rest of yers too, cracking round table.

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that this game has thrown up some of the best debate, because in many ways it's the first of its kind. We've become almost languidly accustomed to the best team losing, that being the worst team and winning, like an unexpected index finger on a one night stand, was disconcerting if not a deal-breaker. I fully admit I'm an aesthete when it comes to football (Hodgson's tenure was affirmed that much for me) but I loved that scappy win as much as any this season.

Spurs remind me a little of a Benitez Liverpool side with their European style, the percentage decisions of Vertonghen at leftback for much of the season and Dembele boxed uncomfortably out the way against us when he should probably be off the bridle and galloping wildly towards goal. There's that solidity too, that comes from a balanced squad and you can't help but think a decent striker would make them a serious European proposition. Defoe has always been too one-dimensional for my liking, and I don't favor players who can't contribute an all round game. It's why I think Hernandez is overrated, and why I was so keen on the Sturridge signing. Sturridge is a goalscorer, but he offers more. That said, and even though he had a quiet game, it's so nice to have someone you can leave on the pitch simply in the knowledge they have a goal in them no matter how off-color or off-key.

Coutinho's a proper footballer too. There was a moment in that first half I started laughing maniacally to myself at the thought we had relieved Inter of his skills for £8million. I imagine it was something like what Mike Ashley felt after he flogged us Andy Carroll, and spent the night clogging his jacuzi with stray pubes and pie crumbs. Finally we put the squeeze on somebody in the transfer window, and here's to more.

I've never subscribed to the need for a 'Plan B' striker, but during the second half I was acutely aware of Gerrard's physical presence in our midfield. Well throughout the match in fact. If we can upgrade a couple of players whilst adding some bite, then I think we'd benefit in certain games. Barcelona may pass it better than us, but they also fight for the right to play football better too. I believe Dilks is keen on Wanyama, and he can play at centreback as well?

The formation, for me, was very much the manager taking a punt. The only real way our season (and to a degree the seasons of those above us) had any real meaning was if we beat Spurs and made the last few games a scrap. In light of that we set up to win the game, to go for broke and let them worrry about us, and I think once we actually started winning we were a little unsure of what to do next. We didn't have the luxury that Spurs had of grinding out a performance, and playing a comfortable balanced team, because we're not there yet and we don't have as many points to play for. One point wasn't much good, but three somehow feels like it says a few different things this season. Anyways enjoy it lads, but if and when we fall short this year remember that we had some fight and some style to us, and remember this one fondly!

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2013, 02:59:09 am »
Not complaining if we fall short this year. To recover from where we were after 5 games to where we are now, after 29 games is already quite some achievement. We have literally chased down and caught up with almost the entire league, bar 6 teams. What we seem to have become now is another version of Manchester United, with goals capable of coming from almost anywhere. I am reasonably confident that from now until the end of the season, no team or at the very most only 1 will be able to stop us from scoring, and even then they are going to have a lot of defending to do.

... and the first goal, I am not sure whether anyone pointed out. But spurs were literally right up the noses of both Enrique and Coutinhio, for them to be under such pressure and pull off such passes is quality.


Offline scottishRED

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2013, 03:16:12 pm »

Great post.

Maybe we're all getting a little bit too used to more comprehensive control of the game against inferior opposition at home...maybe it's because Spurs' short(ish) period of superiority overturned our hard earned 1 goal lead, and then the element of fortune in our final 2 goals, that we're all expressing these concerns.

But you're dead right - for a lot of the match, we played very well, controlled (most) of the possession and caused them a lot of problems.

The fact that we did so at a much earlier stage in our development than they are in theirs is a positive sign.
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