Author Topic: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs  (Read 26646 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #120 on: March 13, 2013, 04:25:34 pm »
This was at times a frustrating game, an exhilirating game, a tactically interesting game, and a game full of hope for the future that, as said above, really needs to be watched again to appreciate it calm in the knowledge of the result. When you look back at it know that Liverpool have won it and not having the emotion tied up with the action, you can see that we did some very, very good things, some bad things, and some things that make next season a season that can't come fast enough - the potential for where this team can go is quite exciting. It was a game that was a microcosm of so much of the season, positively and negatively, and a game that was possibly a microcosm for the future - in terms of technique, tactics and will-to-win. It is also a game that showed the intelligence of the conditioning programme that the players are now on - we looked quite fresh at the end, even Gerrard. His ability to still play 90 minutes with verve and freshness is surely one of the major triumphs of the Rodgers philosophy. But before all of that, there is the game itself.

Spurs System –

Spurs played their usual 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 formation with a few tweaks – Dembele and Sigurdsson played more central than as out-and-out wide men, and Bale was prone to switching positions with either of them on the fly. The main attacking impetus came from Bale, of course, with Sigurdsson moving in on the blindside of the Liverpool defence on his side, and Dembele moving into any space he could find in the inside right position. Parker and Livermore held the central space and kept the attacks switching from side to side, and in fact Parker had a major influence on the Spurs possession, keeping everything tight, tidy and mobile in the middle of the field. Walker had extra attacking responsibilities due to the nature of Dembele’s positioning and movement. In terms of the Spurs attacking midfield, they were clearly playing a mobile but close-positioned game in order to overload the Liverpool central midfield. To help this, they played their usual high offside line to compress the space and keep the pressure on. This, though, had its disadvantages that Liverpool were keen to exploit:




The problem for Spurs was that Liverpool also played a tight and compact game, but played it a lot deeper than usual, and forced the Spurs midfield to alter their plan, as they were not afforded any space behind the Liverpool defence into which they could play Bale or Defoe. In fact, Defoe had a very minimal impact on the game – in a match where Spurs pressed what advantage they had and Liverpool were willing to drop deep and concede the midfield space in order to protect the defensive zone, Defoe ended up touching the ball less than Lloris at the other end of the field. Because Spurs were pushing forward to compress space into the attacking third, they left large gaps behind them – gaps that should have been exploited more effectively by Liverpool in the first 20 minutes, and which would eventually lead to Liverpool’s equalizing goal. The depth of the Liverpool defence also caused problems for Bale, because he was unable to fully utilise his pace, which is one of his two biggest assets (the other being his long-distance shooting). Because Bale relies in pace and power more (as opposed to Suarez or Coutinho who are more intricate in the their dribbling), Bale was forced out of his comfort zone, and while he was able to carry the ball into the top end of the midfield third, he was outnumbered rapidly once he tried to enter the attacking third, forcing him to change his direction of attack and preventing him from having as much of an impact as he has had in games against more open defences. Lucas, for Liverpool, did a very good job in shepherding Bale away from his strong foot, forcing him to turn and redirect his run, which lost a lot of attacking momentum for Spurs (although they did manage to open up the game a few times due to slack marking in the 3rd defender positions by Liverpool). Having said that, the two times that Bale was able to give an unhindered delivery into the box he set up both Spurs goals. On the other hand, for all the possession they had, Spurs on paper should have done a lot more. Unfortunately for them, Liverpool had a say in proceedings too.

Liverpool’s System –


Liverpool lined up almost like an away team, but predictably so for anyone paying attention to the latter half of the second half of the Wigan game. Although Liverpool didn’t really go into a defensive shell until the opening goal, they hit Spurs hard and fast without sacrificing defensive solidity. This was a game that, one excellent moment aside from both Johnson and Enrique, the fullbacks didn’t commit forward as high and as often as they usually do. Liverpool were disciplined, reserved, tight in the channels (although not always tight between the lines) and had a plan to stop the main weapon of the Spurs attack in Bale. The problem that happened for Liverpool was that there essentially two segments in the team – the defensive unit (Jones, Johnson, Carragher, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Gerrard) and the attacking unit (Coutinho, Sturridge, Suarez, Downing). Coutinho and Downing certainly dropped back to help out with defence, but a clear gap developed between the central midfield and the central attackers (Sturridge/Suarez) which meant that Sturridge became somewhat isolated after the opening goal, and Suarez was positionally unreliable in order to offer some depth to the midfield and to put pressure on Parker, forcing Gerrard to come out and do that job. It would almost have been better to play Sturridge as the shadow forward for this one game and allow Suarez the roaming target position. As it was, though, although Suarez had a great game, Sturridge was virtually invisible for much of the time he was on the field:




Downing had one of his best performances in a Liverpool jersey, capping a solid and hard-working game with a good goal. When you look at the goal again, you can see him anticipating the back pass, moving as it is played, and contesting it with Lloris, before gaining composure and smacking it in. There was debate about how he ‘should’ have placed it, but you can’t coach success. It went in, it was hit firmly, and Sturridge was possibly offside so wasn’t a passing option. However, the key players for Liverpool were the two central midfielders. The job they had to do was important, it required top effort, and it required intelligence and discipline, and Gerrard and Lucas supplied all of these qualities in abundance. Lucas did a superb job in tracking and shadowing Bale, with Agger sweeping up behind him, while Gerrard moved in his own midfield zone with menace and intent. This wasn’t a game for Gerrard to express the depth of his passing range, but to show that he could dominate an area with guile and discipline (and the few ‘straighteners’ he put into some of the Spurs players were, if not quite a new dimension to his game, certainly a reminder of the power he still possesses as a physical specimen, even if the engine is not ticking over as it used to. The “Square Base”, as Houllier once put it, held firm and did a disciplined job – in fact there were aspects of the defensive performance of the team that were very Houllier-like. On the other hand, though, we failed to get Sturridge more involved in the game, and individual errors again cost us goals. But overall, the performance was solid, encouraging, and more importantly, it was based on a tactical plan. We conceded space, rather than the concession being forced on us. Because we were willing to concede certain areas to nullify Spurs main strengths, we actually managed to control the game more. It is not unconnected that with this control, both goals for Spurs came from identical services and were scored by a central defender. In reality though, with a bit more composure, it should probably have been 2 or 3-0 before Spurs got their first. The bright spots in the attack were, of course, Coutinho, Suarez and Downing, and Coutinho in particular is showing what kind of attacking player Rodgers will look at as long as he’s here – technical, agile, quick, intelligent and adventurous. The back flick for Enrique was pure Brazil, the combination was like something from 1970, and Suarez had a touch of Jairzinho about him with his stabbed finish. Sometimes you get glimpses of the ideal vision of a manager, and that was another one for Rodgers. There will be a point in time in the near future where 90% of Liverpool goals will look like that. At that point, teams will come to Anfield already beaten.

The Goals Conceded –


In a previous Round Table (Zenit), a kerfuffle was caused by me pointing out that almost all goals occur from multiple errors in succession. For some, that translated to placing blame on an individual other than the last player to touch the ball. This, of course, was not the case. The point being made by me was that we CAN’T blame individuals for the most part, because there are usually collections of players involved in goals against. But in realizing this, we can then talk more specifically about things like Leadership, and improvements to the team, etc. While that is not the direction this analysis will go in, what I think needs to be highlighted is a common thread in both goals that need to be worked on or changed – there was a certain flat-footedness in elements of both goals that made both goals predictable before the last touch was taken. For the first goal, Jones was very flat-footed and slow to get across as the cross was being taken. This meant, of course, that he was not in an optimal position as the header was being struck. He wasn’t the reason the goal was scored, but if you are watching a game in any depth, the footwork of the keeper is one of the things to look for, and his feet weren’t fast enough for the movement of the ball in the flow of play. Similarly, Johnson for the second goal was caught flat and unbalanced, and managed to fall over in a way you don’t expect professional level athletes to do. Again, he wasn’t at fault as an individual for the goal, but it was quite interesting to see a number of incidents of lack of mobility and footspeed in one game. The goals were preventable, and for sure there won’t be many other games where so much depends on players getting their feet out from under them, but it was interesting all the same that there was a clear thread for both goals based not on tactics or technique, but a physical impediment that shows the very narrow margins at the top level.

Key Factors –

 
There were four key factors in the game (among others) that were important to the flow of play. Firstly, Gerrard and Lucas did a superb job in controlling the space right in front of the central defenders, forcing Bale to go wider with his runs, where he is less effective. His runs down the middle were stymied, and the space around Defoe was so tight he barely had a touch of the ball. This of course left some space on the wings, but I think that is probably a concession that Liverpool and Rodgers were happy with. Secondly, Suarez didn’t drop deep enough, often enough, to offer Lucas and Gerrard depth in their midfield play and to put pressure on Parker and Livermore, which meant Gerrard occasionally had to step out of position to do so. The difference was seen clearly when Allen came on the field and immediately offered that depth, which allowed Liverpool to regain some attacking control on the game. Thirdly, Johnson lost track of Sigurdsson several times, as well as losing track of Vertonghen in the two goals. The back post area is vitally important for goals in football, and having your head on a swivel as a 3rd defender is vital. It’s not the first time that this focus on the ball and not splitting his vision between the ball and the 3rd attackers has been a factor in goals against (the Evra goal for United is another example). It’s a matter of concentration, though, and it makes it seem like Johnson is a fullback who thinks like a winger rather than a defender. It is very important, though, that this gets corrected, because England is a country that is big on crosses to the back post, and failures of awareness like this get punished all too frequently. Last, but not least, was the difference in spaces between the respective midfields. Spurs were compact, tight, helped by their high defensive line, and gave a solid connection between midfield and attack and allowed them to recycle attacks and switch play. Liverpool had a noticeable gap between central midfield and the forward line, a gap that they managed okay, but which could have been better with someone other than Suarez tasked with dropping into the space. This changed with the introduction of Allen, which gave that depth, but it could have been solved by swapping Sturridge and Suarez around. The factor wasn’t, as some have said, playing 2 central midfielders against 3 in the opposition. The key factor was the lack of depth, which can come from the forwards. Cantona was excellent at this for United; Litmanen was clearly bought for this by Houllier (although very underused). We lacked it against Spurs, and it showed until Allen came on. If we are to play this way again, Rodgers will have to think about who to play up front that can offer that depth. Perhaps next season, if we play this strategy, we might see Coutinho there and someone else out wide on the left?



Overall, a good game for the neutral, a solid game from Liverpool, and a marker set down to the other teams. The benefit of this result won’t only be felt this season – indeed, a game and result like this will only galvanise the faith the players have in the manager and his methods, and will convince those (if there are any) who were on the fence. Next season, though, teams will come to Anfield knowing they will be scored on, multiple times, if they are not on their game. What will happen is they will either park the bus, meaning we will have all the possession which suits our game – or they will try to go for it, which will leave space behind which, we now know with Sturridge and Coutinho, we will exploit ruthlessly. Next season could see the return of Fortress Anfield, a major step forward in creating a title challenging team.

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Offline No666

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #121 on: March 13, 2013, 04:34:59 pm »
Excellent stuff from PoP, Yorky and others on here - an education in four pages on the interweb, eh?

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #122 on: March 13, 2013, 04:45:32 pm »
Quote
The back post area is vitally important for goals in football, and having your head on a swivel as a 3rd defender is vital. It’s not the first time that this focus on the ball and not splitting his vision between the ball and the 3rd attackers has been a factor in goals against.

Thanks, PoP. Can I ask, what do you mean by 3rd defender/3rd attacker?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #123 on: March 13, 2013, 04:52:21 pm »
Thanks, PoP. Can I ask, what do you mean by 3rd defender/3rd attacker?

Defenders and Attackers furthest away from the ball. 3rd Defenders position for depth and balance. 3rd Attackers try to break this depth and balance with late runs, blindside runs on the fullback, and width to stretch the defensive line.


(Attackers shaded, defenders in white)

1st attackers/defenders - players at the ball/on the ball
2nd attackers/defenders - players near the ball/supporting players
3rd attackers/defenders - players furthest/deepest from the ball/balancing defenders
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:58:56 pm by PhaseofPlay »
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2013, 04:55:20 pm »
Defenders and Attackers furthest away from the ball. 3rd Defenders position for depth and balance. 3rd Attackers try to break this depth and balance with late runs, blindside runs on the fullback, and width to stretch the defensive line.

Are there 1st and 2nd defenders/attackers?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2013, 04:59:09 pm »
Are there 1st and 2nd defenders/attackers?

See above :)
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #126 on: March 13, 2013, 05:06:31 pm »

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2013, 10:24:41 pm »
Bravo everyone for the contributions so far.

For me, one of the significant aspects of the game was the shift in momentum towards the end of the first half.  Up to this point, we had dominated.

The opening period saw us playing very direct, trying to release runners in the huge space behind Spurs' high line.  Spurs were pretty poor at building play and we did a good job to prevent them getting a foot hold.

Spurs began to press much more effectively around 30 minutes.  Whether there was a tactical shift I couldn't tell, but it wouldn't surprise me.  This led to us becoming much more sloppy in possession.  I thought at the time we were trying too hard to play balls behind their defence from too deep, and we gave a lot of possession away.  For me, we needed to take the pace of the game down a touch at this point, as we were 1-0 up, and Spurs were beginning to have some sustained pressure.

Spurs dominated this period of the game and the start of the second half and scored 2 and had 2 great chances with Sigurdsson.  We needed to keep the ball better to wrestle control back.  Essentially we played to their strength, going from transition when we won the ball, to transition by giving it away too quickly, leaving oursleves very out of shape.

Allen was brought on around the hour mark to help us keep the ball.  We still didn't keep the ball as well as we can, which was down to a combination of good pressing from Spurs and some errors from us, but we did begin to see better options for the man in possession and stopped trying to play the ball in behind as often.

I think as we evolve further, we will need to get better at recognising when to play more patiently.  The most effective form of defence is to keep the ball.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:26:38 pm by Prof »

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2013, 11:29:17 pm »
Downing had one of his best performances in a Liverpool jersey, capping a solid and hard-working game with a good goal. When you look at the goal again, you can see him anticipating the back pass, moving as it is played, and contesting it with Lloris, before gaining composure and smacking it in.

The first goal was just a magical bit of play no doubt brought about from the emphasis of short sided games in training. But the 2nd goal I can't escape the feeling that was something Rodgers address in training especially for Tottenham. With the way Downing anticipated the back pass and the speed in which he attacked Lloris gave me the impression it was something he was looking for and had probably drilled on the training track. 

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2013, 11:35:42 pm »
The first goal was just a magical bit of play no doubt brought about from the emphasis of short sided games in training. But the 2nd goal I can't escape the feeling that was something Rodgers address in training especially for Tottenham. With the way Downing anticipated the back pass and the speed in which he attacked Lloris gave me the impression it was something he was looking for and had probably drilled on the training track.

You could be very correct, there, actually, my friend. Didn't think of that aspect at all. With that framework, it actually puts a different spin on it, because the run itself was a bit "out of character" to a degree, wasn't it? It was a bit different from what we'd expect from Downing, perhaps?
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2013, 11:50:43 pm »
The first goal was just a magical bit of play no doubt brought about from the emphasis of short sided games in training. But the 2nd goal I can't escape the feeling that was something Rodgers address in training especially for Tottenham. With the way Downing anticipated the back pass and the speed in which he attacked Lloris gave me the impression it was something he was looking for and had probably drilled on the training track. 



Five minutes prior to the goal Walker had executed a similar lofted back pass with his right foot. That alone will probably have alerted, if not Downing, then at least the bench. Probably Downing was hoping to do no more than pressure Lloris into a wild kick. But Walker's ineptitude made things a bit more interesting.

Mind you, there'll be some who say it wasn't principally Walker's or Lloris's fault and that the entire Totty defence was to blame  ;)
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2013, 11:57:26 pm »
The back flick for Enrique was pure Brazil, the combination was like something from 1970, and Suarez had a touch of Jairzinho about him with his stabbed finish. Sometimes you get glimpses of the ideal vision of a manager, and that was another one for Rodgers. There will be a point in time in the near future where 90% of Liverpool goals will look like that. At that point, teams will come to Anfield already beaten.

I hope you're right! As always a great, informative analysis of the game.  :)
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2013, 12:01:51 am »
Five minutes prior to the goal Walker had executed a similar lofted back pass with his right foot. That alone will probably have alerted, if not Downing, then at least the bench. Probably Downing was hoping to do no more than pressure Lloris into a wild kick. But Walker's ineptitude made things a bit more interesting.

Mind you, there'll be some who say it wasn't principally Walker's or Lloris's fault and that the entire Totty defence was to blame  ;)

You're right. There were at least 7 players out of position for that goal - the biggest offender was Ledly King, of course, although Jonathan Woodgate would have some questions to answer too. A catalogue of errors, for sure. I can only assume that Ramos will fix it for next season :D
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2013, 12:06:15 am »
Thanks for the fantastic and enlightening analysis, PoP. It showed Rodgers' tactical acumen once again.

Certainly, Johnson's lack of focus as a defender is a concern, wouldn't it? Is he getting weary as the season comes to an end? Although Wisdom is a cover, his preferred position is CB. Where do we find a RB who will fit in BR's team?

Ditto for Lucas. We badly need a cover for his position. Allen and Hendo do not have the same awareness and tactical discipline to carry out this role.

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2013, 12:19:09 am »
Five minutes prior to the goal Walker had executed a similar lofted back pass with his right foot. That alone will probably have alerted, if not Downing, then at least the bench. Probably Downing was hoping to do no more than pressure Lloris into a wild kick. But Walker's ineptitude made things a bit more interesting.

Mind you, there'll be some who say it wasn't principally Walker's or Lloris's fault and that the entire Totty defence was to blame  ;)

Well there is an argument that if someone had better presented up the field Walkers would have had another suitable option but I don't think anyone would absolve Walker and Lloris of fault. I think managers would say it's a team game, mistakes and success' should be felt as a team and every player should be asking what can they could do to stop that from happening in the future.

You might be right regarding Downing, it might just have been he twigged from a previous pass. It was just a thought.

You could be very correct, there, actually, my friend. Didn't think of that aspect at all. With that framework, it actually puts a different spin on it, because the run itself was a bit "out of character" to a degree, wasn't it? It was a bit different from what we'd expect from Downing, perhaps?

To me it felt like it could be a premeditated deviation from the norm. I'm sure there's a coaching theory out there in regards to this but to me players are so well drilled these days that they can get into a pattern. I suspect knowing when to break the rules and anticipate patterns is where top players/managers stand out above merely the good.

Not dissing Downing in any way and it could very well have been Downing thinking on his feet and even if it was premediated to get the execution so right was brilliant in itself. But he did come from a long way back and it didn't seem expected to me, as soon as he saw Walker cornered he was off.

To me it was reminicient of something we did against Chelsea last season.  Adam seeminly out of the blue and it was the first time it had happened that game, he pressed up on Mikel collecting the ball from the keeper. He won the ball and we then went into a passing sequence ending in Maxi putting the ball in the back of the net. That very passing sequence was drilled several times in the warm up before the game and was an exploitation in a weakness in Mikel's game.

I just thought there was a practiced feel to the execution and I suspect that pass is something Walker will consistently make. I could be way off though.
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2013, 12:43:57 am »
Great stuff in here guys as always.

I think we maybe saw in this game that Rodgers will in future start games against the better possession teams with the 3 in midfield. It was a big call to bring Allen on at 2-1 down and go to what would at first glance be a less attacking shape but it was Rafa like in some ways to try to regain control of the middle of the park before thinking about winning the game.

I think it's a tough call to pin either goal on Johnson. For the first goal He got paired against Vertonghen on the far post withour centre half (Jamie) not quite getting there. He put in a decent challenge but Vertonghen from that range will beat most full backs and perhaps the keeper could have done better.

Second goal for me was a foul on Carra by Dawson which allowed the ball to pop up nicely for Vertonghen again. Agger could have closed it down better but in fairness Vertonghen put it away in just abput the only place he could squeeze it past him.

The inherent point about both goals was the failure to win the first ball knocked into the box and is the main weakness in the side.

Agreed re BR's tactics, he definitely dropped off and kept the defence and midfield 2 compact nulifying Defoe entirely and Bale to a lesser extent. I thought Gerrard and Lucas were very disciplined and got about the hole players without giving a lot of fouls away in Bale range.

Good performance against an excellent Spurs side who know what they are doing.

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2013, 01:27:49 am »
I couldn't add to the excellent analysis already featured by men more learned in football tactics than myself but i can say that this season has been a learning curve and wherever we go over the next few seasons we will undoubtedly be great to watch. There is a beauty and fluidness in our play that reminds me of days gone by. We have had some good sides since those days some were attacking and exciting others were pragmatic and ruthless. Perhaps a reflection of the men who formed them.

This team seems to be developing a style of play that will keep the football lovers happy as much as those who only care about the results. Watching us play when we are in good touch is a joy a real pleasure that even a neutral could appreciate and the good news is we are only going to get better.
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2013, 03:54:30 pm »
Usual quality analysis.

Bale was their main danger man at kick off, and you are right, we handled him as well as anyone has all year. The secret is, as you say, not to allow him any space centrally by pushing him wider and wider (preferably righter and righter!)

Lucas and Gerrard were awesome in this respect and a big part of the reason for our first half dominance. Had we been clinical (or had Sturridge been properly fit?) the game could've been over by half time, which is enormously gratifying against such a good side.

It was, then, enormously frustrating that all of the hard graft and concentration was (temporarily) undone by a failure to defend a cross, yet again. Whilst you are correct in the "Swiss cheese" analysis to a point, some of this is player dependent more than tactical - we are desparately short of an aerially dominant central defender and it has shown all season. Whilst both goals were multifactorial, it is worth saying that if they first ball was well met and cleared, the other factors don't come into play.  In English football in particular, it is critical to be able to defend the cheap (and not so cheap) high ball as this prevents sides from putting you under pressure without really earning the right to.

Thankfully it all worked out in this game, largely due to Tottenham's own generosity in front of goal. However, one presumes Brendan's list of players includes a central defender who makes attacking Liverpool with a high ball a pretty fruitless enterprise.
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2013, 03:58:40 pm »
This team seems to be developing a style of play that will keep the football lovers happy as much as those who only care about the results.
I consider myself both.
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Offline Kali Yuga

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2013, 05:35:25 pm »
Very good analysis, chaps. Have to ask, to someone like PoP... do you dissect the game in a tactical analysis way AS you're watching it for the first time, or do you need to re-watch it afterwards? I'm afraid I can't seem to evaluate the game in depth whilst I'm watching it. I'm just willing the gentlemen in red to have the ball, keep the ball and score.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2013, 05:48:29 pm »
The factor wasn't, as some have said, playing 2 central midfielders against 3 in the opposition. The key factor was the lack of depth, which can come from the forwards. Cantona was excellent at this for United; Litmanen was clearly bought for this by Houllier (although very underused). We lacked it against Spurs, and it showed until Allen came on. If we are to play this way again, Rodgers will have to think about who to play up front that can offer that depth. Perhaps next season, if we play this strategy, we might see Coutinho there and someone else out wide on the left?


Think this breaks down a little when you think about the type of player Suarez is - would BR really have asked Suarez to provide depth  - the lad plays all over the shop - - ask him to drop hand grenades or fireworks but depth? more likely that he would just been told to annoy Parker and use the space in front of their back two and let them worry more about us ?  both Downing and Coutinho could have been asked to 'help out' - a scientific term meaning 'do what you can'  up there with 'throw it in the mixer',  ' use the space' and 'let the ball do the work' in terms of helpfulness but effectively step inside and help the centre depending where the ball was - but I dont think we did this either - it seemed much more likely we just wanted them to concentrate on stopping us, keeping their fullbacks pinned with our wide men rather than the other way around and it came unstuck when we scored and sat back/were pushed back -  because once again when under pressure we lost purpose to our play and our set up then was simply too attacking - Allen came on and shored us up in the centre and we actually became much more of an attacking threat again because we had the ball and could use it especially as they tired - if anything Allens introduction was a little slow in arriving



think there was an element of him wanting all his best attacking players on the pitch not least to match their very pacy team
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2013, 05:51:34 pm »
Very good analysis, chaps. Have to ask, to someone like PoP... do you dissect the game in a tactical analysis way AS you're watching it for the first time, or do you need to re-watch it afterwards? I'm afraid I can't seem to evaluate the game in depth whilst I'm watching it. I'm just willing the gentlemen in red to have the ball, keep the ball and score.

Both. When I did my first coaching badge nearly 20 years ago, we were told we would never watch a game of football the same way again - we would lose some of the joy of just supporting because we would be looking for too many technical things, and the instructor was right. I watch all games with a little notebook and a match-analysis shorthand because, basically, I need to know what's going on in the game beyond attack and defence. That's why I like managers like Rodgers and Villas-Boas and Rafa and Mourinho and Guardiola - you can enjoy it on both levels because the things that happen underneath the surface are actually interesting enough to give you enjoyment. Watching a Pardew team, or a Steve Bruce team - there's no enjoyment there, just technical mediocrity puncutated by occasional moments of individual creativity. :)
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Offline Wingman

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2013, 06:05:52 pm »
Watching a Pardew team, or a Steve Bruce team - there's no enjoyment there, just technical mediocrity puncutated by occasional moments of individual creativity. :)

Ouch!

Thanks for the analysis POP.

Offline Kali Yuga

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2013, 06:09:39 pm »
Interesting. I do like the notion that there's a lot of sophisticated tactical game play going on, even if I only get to know about it afterwards when I read a post like yours. What would you suggest to somebody who is looking to view games with a more analytical eye like yours, short of actually going on a coaching course, of course?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2013, 06:14:11 pm »
Interesting. I do like the notion that there's a lot of sophisticated tactical game play going on, even if I only get to know about it afterwards when I read a post like yours. What would you suggest to somebody who is looking to view games with a more analytical eye like yours, short of actually going on a coaching course, of course?

There is an FA Online course in match analysis, although it is very basic

There is are some match analysis handbooks out there too - There's a Dutch one and an Italian one that are good.

If you want to understand where Rodgers is coming from, anything about or by the KNVB will be a good read.
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Offline totalimmortal

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2013, 06:17:05 pm »
Thanks for the fantastic and enlightening analysis, PoP. It showed Rodgers' tactical acumen once again.

Certainly, Johnson's lack of focus as a defender is a concern, wouldn't it? Is he getting weary as the season comes to an end? Although Wisdom is a cover, his preferred position is CB. Where do we find a RB who will fit in BR's team?

Ditto for Lucas. We badly need a cover for his position. Allen and Hendo do not have the same awareness and tactical discipline to carry out this role.

I think you're forgetting Martin Kelly who was doing well before his injury.
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Offline Kali Yuga

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2013, 06:31:35 pm »
There is an FA Online course in match analysis, although it is very basic

There is are some match analysis handbooks out there too - There's a Dutch one and an Italian one that are good.

If you want to understand where Rodgers is coming from, anything about or by the KNVB will be a good read.

Thanks for the heads up. Much appreciated.
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Offline Carlos: Very Kickable

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #147 on: March 15, 2013, 01:17:17 am »
/snip/ technical mediocrity puncutated by occasional moments of individual creativity. :)

 :lmao

Would love to see that on a banner at the sportsdirect.com arena
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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2013, 06:49:47 am »
Personally speacking I thought we had no control of the game whatsoever in the middle section of the match and Spurs could (and probably should) have killed the game. We went two in the middle against Spurs' 3 in the middle and had Gylfi got his head up and picked out the unmarked Defoe we would have been 3-1 and game over.

Now, I admire Rodgers' desire to be on the front foot as much as possible and to be fair we did dominate the first 20 minutes but the second Spurs gained control of the game and make no mistake we were being dominated at that point, we should have made changes. I personally think we got away with it big style against Spurs and going against a top side (and Spurs are a top side) we need to be going 3 in the middle to ensure they don't control the midfield and then in turn control the game.

I can understand Rodgers dilemma, he wants to play Sturridge because of his movement and pace in behind, he wants to play Coutinho because of his pace and trickery, Downing is in good form and Suarez is, well, Suarez.
But that means we had to play two of Gerrard ad Lucas, Lucas who hasn't (imho) yet reached the heights of his pre injury form and Gerrard who isn't as mobile as he used to be. I think against sides that come to park the bus we can have two in the middle but away and against top sides (home or away) we need that extra body in there meaning we need to drop on of the 4 attackers for a CM.

Was a great win though, all things considered.

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2013, 07:12:59 am »
Personally speacking I thought we had no control of the game whatsoever in the middle section of the match and Spurs could (and probably should) have killed the game. We went two in the middle against Spurs' 3 in the middle and had Gylfi got his head up and picked out the unmarked Defoe we would have been 3-1 and game over.

Now, I admire Rodgers' desire to be on the front foot as much as possible and to be fair we did dominate the first 20 minutes but the second Spurs gained control of the game and make no mistake we were being dominated at that point, we should have made changes. I personally think we got away with it big style against Spurs and going against a top side (and Spurs are a top side) we need to be going 3 in the middle to ensure they don't control the midfield and then in turn control the game.

I can understand Rodgers dilemma, he wants to play Sturridge because of his movement and pace in behind, he wants to play Coutinho because of his pace and trickery, Downing is in good form and Suarez is, well, Suarez.
But that means we had to play two of Gerrard ad Lucas, Lucas who hasn't (imho) yet reached the heights of his pre injury form and Gerrard who isn't as mobile as he used to be. I think against sides that come to park the bus we can have two in the middle but away and against top sides (home or away) we need that extra body in there meaning we need to drop on of the 4 attackers for a CM.

Was a great win though, all things considered.
They did control the middle of the park for large chunks but we looked more dangerous for a lot of that time but were countering and exchanging possession quickly. The benefit of Sturridge and Suarez up front could have given us a 2-0 lead in 10 minutes so there is a trade off there. However, I think you are right, I think we learnt in this game that against the better possession sides who will play 3 in there and be patient then we will often go to the 5.

Online spider-neil

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #150 on: March 16, 2013, 07:47:07 am »
They did control the middle of the park for large chunks but we looked more dangerous for a lot of that time but were countering and exchanging possession quickly. The benefit of Sturridge and Suarez up front could have given us a 2-0 lead in 10 minutes so there is a trade off there. However, I think you are right, I think we learnt in this game that against the better possession sides who will play 3 in there and be patient then we will often go to the 5.

If and when Lucas gains his pre injury form and we get the players needed to have a high defensive line we will be able to get away with two central midfielders because the space in midfield will be so comressed that the attack and midfield will be able to press in packs without using up too much energy.

It's interesting that at this stage we can't drop Downing to put the extra body in midfield, who thought we'd be saying 'that' at the start of the season?

Offline The Mule

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #151 on: March 16, 2013, 08:30:29 am »
Personally speacking I thought we had no control of the game whatsoever in the middle section of the match and Spurs could (and probably should) have killed the game. We went two in the middle against Spurs' 3 in the middle and had Gylfi got his head up and picked out the unmarked Defoe we would have been 3-1 and game over.

Now, I admire Rodgers' desire to be on the front foot as much as possible and to be fair we did dominate the first 20 minutes but the second Spurs gained control of the game and make no mistake we were being dominated at that point, we should have made changes. I personally think we got away with it big style against Spurs and going against a top side (and Spurs are a top side) we need to be going 3 in the middle to ensure they don't control the midfield and then in turn control the game.

I can understand Rodgers dilemma, he wants to play Sturridge because of his movement and pace in behind, he wants to play Coutinho because of his pace and trickery, Downing is in good form and Suarez is, well, Suarez.
But that means we had to play two of Gerrard ad Lucas, Lucas who hasn't (imho) yet reached the heights of his pre injury form and Gerrard who isn't as mobile as he used to be. I think against sides that come to park the bus we can have two in the middle but away and against top sides (home or away) we need that extra body in there meaning we need to drop on of the 4 attackers for a CM.

Was a great win though, all things considered.

This is another of the many reasons we need to get adequate cover for Lucas in the summer.

If we had another tactically disciplined destroyer type in midfield (preferably someone mobile who is also efficient with his passing), then we could go 4-2-3-1 for these kind of games (obviously with Lucas and said new player in the 2).

This is no criticism of our captain who saved us in the end, but if we did have another player with similar qualities to Lucas, then Gerrard can begin to sit some of these games out (or at least start from the bench). Which would mean we could keep all our attackers on the field and still maintain that solidity.

Without wanting to go all transfer forumy, there are some reports we have all but signed the soon-to-be free agent Manuel Iturra from Malaga.

Not sure of the validity of these claims (would have preferred more of a physical specimen a la pre-eye op Momo with a bit more positional discipline myself), but I would put this kind of player near the top of our shopping list for the summer
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Offline vicar

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #152 on: March 16, 2013, 08:34:59 am »
PhaseOfPlay - fantastic post, really interesting. Look forward to reading these after every game.

You should create a book at the end of the season with a section on each game?

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #153 on: March 16, 2013, 09:05:13 am »
PhaseOfPlay - fantastic post, really interesting. Look forward to reading these after every game.

You should create a book at the end of the season with a section on each game?

PoP anaylsis always makes for great reading but I disagree with him regards to Gerrard and Lucas controlling the midfield. I thought they were completely dominated in midfield bar the first 20 mins and maybe after we took the lead. So, a massive middle section of the match where Spurs was in complete control of the match to the point where I simply couldn't see us getting back into the game and it was looking far more likely they would score a 3rd rather than us getting a second. It is here Spurs could have killed the game. So I completely disagree that Gerrard and Lucas controlled the match, I think they marshalled Bale well but even restricted he (Bale) got two assists.

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #154 on: March 16, 2013, 10:42:46 am »
I think they marshalled Bale well but even restricted he (Bale) got two assists.

Just to put the counterpoint to that though mate - one assist was from a deadball and the other was from him being allowed to re-enter the field of play and so find himself unmarked. Neither really reflect on Lucas and Gerrard. Absent those, there was really just that one cross after he surged past everyone wasn't there?

And, definitely agree with what others have said about the quality of writing in these threads. Credit to those who take the time to write something worth reading, and it makes for a great read to have things broken down and presented in ways you'd maybe not have thought about before.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #155 on: March 16, 2013, 12:06:17 pm »
They did control the middle of the park for large chunks but we looked more dangerous for a lot of that time but were countering and exchanging possession quickly. The benefit of Sturridge and Suarez up front could have given us a 2-0 lead in 10 minutes so there is a trade off there. However, I think you are right, I think we learnt in this game that against the better possession sides who will play 3 in there and be patient then we will often go to the 5.
Important point about trade offs BB.  The game and a match plan will be full of them.  Like spider-neil said, I don't think we had control of the midfield and especially in the 2nd half when Dembele and Parker were first to everything and all over us.  I have to be honest, I don't think we've had control of the midfield all season, especially when put under pressure or we meet high quality midfielders.  They generally cut us apart or are first to 2nd balls etc.  But as others have said, I see where Rodgers is coming from.  He's building from the front.  I really admire him for this.  Mistakes will be made and it means you will have to stomach a lot.  But it means he is doing what he believes, even in the face of adversity.  Not only that but I believe this league is structured in such a way that it rewards the attacking sides.  I can't put my finger on it and it often leaves me baffled but control of the midfield does not seem to have as a high value as say it does in the CL.

Back to the point about trade offs, you need to manage these.  I like that Rodgers has a plan but football by it's very nature requires you to be reactive.  And he was last Sunday.  Very happy with the result and it is a significant one in terms of endorsement for the project.  We needed this.  We almost had it at City and Arsenal but now we need to build on the confidence this result will bring.

Offline DanA

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #156 on: March 16, 2013, 12:36:03 pm »
I think Rodgers was not reactive but very much proactive about the way he set us up and the way the game was played. Tottenham were a team on fire but coming off a busy fixture schedule with some injury concerns. I think Rodgers very deliberately made the game a high tempo game but didn't want Bale with time and space on the ball, I'm sure he was disappointed with the ease of which the goals were scored but I think they were the type of balls Rodgers was willing to concede. I also suspect he was very happy to go in at half time with the scores level. A lot of people question why we went out with the team we did but IMO Rodgers plan was always keep the game at a high tempo and wait for Tottenham to tire, and then bring on Allen to take back control of possession.

Perhaps it's a bit like watching clouds and subconscious dictating what you see but for my mind I believe Rodgers was very deliberate in his plan which was complex and intricate in detail and it played out exactly as planned.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:46:59 pm by DanA »
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #157 on: March 16, 2013, 12:45:26 pm »
PoP anaylsis always makes for great reading but I disagree with him regards to Gerrard and Lucas controlling the midfield. I thought they were completely dominated in midfield bar the first 20 mins and maybe after we took the lead. So, a massive middle section of the match where Spurs was in complete control of the match to the point where I simply couldn't see us getting back into the game and it was looking far more likely they would score a 3rd rather than us getting a second. It is here Spurs could have killed the game. So I completely disagree that Gerrard and Lucas controlled the match, I think they marshalled Bale well but even restricted he (Bale) got two assists.

I'm not entirely sure that I said Gerrard and Lucas controlled the midfield. I said they did a good job controlling Bale, and that Liverpool dropping deep forced Spurs to change their midfield plan. Secondly, you can't pin either service from Bale on Gerrard and Lucas, because A) they were both from wide positions and that area is the responsibility of the wide players - so effectively Gerrard and Lucas did their jobs, and B) one of the services was from a free kick - hardly anything Gerrard or Lucas could do to stop that seeing as they had to stand at least 10 yards away in the first place :D
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Offline DanA

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #158 on: March 16, 2013, 12:52:03 pm »
This is another of the many reasons we need to get adequate cover for Lucas in the summer.

If we had another tactically disciplined destroyer type in midfield (preferably someone mobile who is also efficient with his passing), then we could go 4-2-3-1 for these kind of games (obviously with Lucas and said new player in the 2).

This is no criticism of our captain who saved us in the end, but if we did have another player with similar qualities to Lucas, then Gerrard can begin to sit some of these games out (or at least start from the bench). Which would mean we could keep all our attackers on the field and still maintain that solidity.

Without wanting to go all transfer forumy, there are some reports we have all but signed the soon-to-be free agent Manuel Iturra from Malaga.

Not sure of the validity of these claims (would have preferred more of a physical specimen a la pre-eye op Momo with a bit more positional discipline myself), but I would put this kind of player near the top of our shopping list for the summer

You only have to look at the results with and without Lucas over the last 2 season to see he's ridiculously important. Without looking to deeply into it the difference in results is huge. As to why there has been such a big difference is hard to pin down. Perhaps some of it is a coincidence but i'm inclined to think a lack of defensive solidarity and tactical inflexibility is a large part responsible.

On the surface of it, I hope we get someone more physically imposing than Iturra. Though granted I don't know a whole lot about him. Certainly not enough to have a proper opinion
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:54:22 pm by DanA »
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Offline The Mule

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Re: Round Table - Liverpool v Spurs
« Reply #159 on: March 16, 2013, 02:21:30 pm »
You only have to look at the results with and without Lucas over the last 2 season to see he's ridiculously important. Without looking to deeply into it the difference in results is huge. As to why there has been such a big difference is hard to pin down. Perhaps some of it is a coincidence but i'm inclined to think a lack of defensive solidarity and tactical inflexibility is a large part responsible.

On the surface of it, I hope we get someone more physically imposing than Iturra. Though granted I don't know a whole lot about him. Certainly not enough to have a proper opinion


Still find it a bit baffling that under two different regimes and over 3-4 transfer windows we still have not addressed this.

Strange.

And like I was saying, not only would we have cover for a crucial yet recently injury-prone member of our 1st team, it would give us options in situations like against Spurs, where we wanted to accomodate all our main attacking personnel, but without giving anything away in front of the defence.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 02:23:25 pm by The Mule »
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