Author Topic: Systems - Mindgames  (Read 29784 times)

Offline johnny74

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Re: Mentality, the deeper routed problem
« Reply #240 on: February 15, 2013, 01:03:00 pm »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/nov/23/brendan-rodgers-liverpool-mind-games

I dunno what time frame we should expect Dr Steve to work his magic in, but his 1 day a week at Melwood is having fuck all effect so far.

You've not noticed the resurgence of Jordan Henderson and the general improvement in Downing then?

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Mentality, the deeper routed problem
« Reply #241 on: February 15, 2013, 01:05:32 pm »
We need more experienced players in the squad. A Hyypia/Carragher at the back and a Hamman in midfield. We've got more than enough youth/young players to last us the next 5-10 years but no one with experience to help them along and take the pressure off them. Agger and Skrtl may not be youth players but they haven't emgot the experience of playing in Champions league finals/semi finals.

Basically, in the summer, improve our defence and midfield with players over 25 that have some sort of experience at the top level and some mental steel.

We've lost the ability to be able to spot them.

I find it extremely frustrating that for the first time in 5 years we have money on the hip, but don't seem to know what to do with it.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Mentality, the deeper routed problem
« Reply #242 on: February 15, 2013, 01:12:40 pm »
when you are taking your chances ,evrything else seems to work...
Part of why football is so enjoyable, is because it's so unpredictable. But just like you can bet on Man U scoring a winner in the 95th minute, if we haven't scored within an hour, you can bet on us, dropping our heads or/and concentration, and leaking a goal. On top of that, you can bet on us usually getting caught with a sucker punch as we try to get the goal back. It's became like a script. But the thing is, with it being the same old problems over and over, Brendan can easily work on fixing them.

But to expect him to do it in a season, after the last few years we've been through, is ridiculous and unfair. I'm not saying the lad is going to succeed. But I know one thing, we keep sacking manager's year in, year out, we're fucked. We haven't got the money to keep throwing managers, systems and players away after one season. In fact, that's why FSG won't sack Brendan at the end of the season. But if we remember long term success only comes with stability in the back room, we might just end this cycle. We carry on riding the management merry-go-round, we're fucked.
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Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Mentality, the deeper routed problem
« Reply #243 on: February 15, 2013, 01:19:08 pm »
Taken from 'A Season on the Brink'

Quote
Pako Ayestaran adds: "The players were not relaxed when they went out on to the pitch. Ok they did believe that they could win, but they certainly carried an excess of tension on their shoulders. We had identified it in the previous couple of days but it had not been alleviated. Also, this final had arrived too soon for us to have constructed a team which was able to play at the same level and with the same conviction, whether it happened to be winning or losing at any given time.
His assessment echoed Benitez's own thoughts during the first few minutes of the final. Rafa had tried to make Liverpool resemble his old Valencia or Jose Mourinho's Chelsea: he wanted a team so confident that regardless of whether they were winning or losing, the shape, rhythm and consistency of their play would remain unchanged. "Bloody hell! Let them score so we can go home and enjoy ourselves," Sevilla centre back Pablo Alfaro had said half-jokingly during a match against Rafa's Valencia. They were simply relentless. And they loved the football they played. Benitez had built a team with total self-belief that was able to react to any circumstance during a match. For them, the satisfaction of completing the week's work (producing good pressure, executing offensive tactics as planned, scoring a goal from a dead-ball situation that they'd practised in training) was almost as welcome as the actual result on the weekend. As Ayestaran puts it, "We made them believe the key was not only thinking of winning, but being ready to win. Valencia were capable of losing but of saying to themselves, 'Ok, no problem, we know how to turn this around.' We haven't achieved that with Liverpool, yet."

When mentality has been a problem for three seasons I think it is fair to say that a lot of it is directly down to the players. Our problem is a) we don't have a squad strong enough to continue with the same intensity and flow throughout a full game and b) we've performed at such an inconsistent, average level over the last three years that I think the squad does not have the confidence during games to go "we can turn this around." Instead it's more a feeling of "here we go again." One psychologist isn't going to change everything around. The way we do change our mentality is buying players of the quality and mentality to improve us. It takes time.

Rafa talked about when he came in not having enough Carragher-type players in the squad. Players who fought, who never gave up during a game and were leaders. We don't have enough of that now. Our squad now is so short on character and mentality that it's no wonder we have problems during games. The signing of Sturridge has brought in an added confidence and arrogance. But we still need much more. That's one of the problems with signing young players. Some young players will automatically have the fighting mentality anyway. But others need leadership to help them along. We are lacking severely in that department.
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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #244 on: February 15, 2013, 01:20:29 pm »
If there's an open topic on a subject, it'd be good if you could stick within that topic, unless you've written something really mind blowing and a great read in its own right. Cheers guys.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #245 on: February 15, 2013, 02:17:07 pm »
mind you Roy, Merging these has ruined the first one a bit.

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Mentality, the deeper routed problem
« Reply #246 on: February 15, 2013, 02:57:59 pm »
I think that's part of the problem. We aren't doing our bit but, I echo the sentiments of those who say we need to buy more leaders, more winners. Newcastle have done it for peanuts in signing players like Debuchy, Cabaye and Mbiwa who have all won the league in their country. If they can do it why can't we?

I do agree with those sentiments as well, and think that a couple more experienced heads might make the difference. However, we have Stevie, Pepe, Danny and for a few months yet, Jamie all with extraordinary levels of experience. I don't think we are too deprived in that area.

No, for me what is causing much of the fear in our team, and has done since 09 (which is why it stretches over several managerial reigns) is the frustration of the fans. Fans that booed when we went top of the league. Internet and phone-in warriors calling for a manager's head after a couple of losses - doing for Rafa and Kenny, both more experienced than most of the rest of the league's management put together.

We have to make mistakes this year to learn. We will be inconsistent. We don't have twenty years of uninterrupted success behind us like some teams. We can't play  FM type games with endless budgets. We are LFC, doing it our way, and we have to rebuild from the ground up, painful reverse after painful reverse till the glory that is earned through blood becomes our due. Liverpool Football Club was always rebuilt this way. The 70s and 80s are not our entire history. We've suffered too, more than most - those glory decades were earned through graft and humour.

And all through that the supporters were the edge, the heart, the twelfth man. You'll Never Walk Alone, not just a song. Part of the Holy Trinity. And that Trinity does not stand without our faith and dogged belief in the other two branches. We can't play out there, we can't choose the team, we can't choose the tactics or how much will be spent. We can only drive the team on, cheer harder when it's going wrong, force through sheer will the course of the game. Players respond to that, truly they do. They overcome their limitations. They make mistakes but return stronger. Maybe not that day, or the next but soon enough. How many people now berating Allen were doing so to Lucas a few years back?

There were times as a young lad that I genuinely believed the Kop could drive the ball into the net by passion alone. It happened, I saw it in my child's eye time and again. Why do we always aim to play towards the Kop for the second half? Because for any player, the spirit and power and sheer will of those fans can inspire him to acts of glory.

We've always been different in that. Because we always had that faith, even when we were in lower divisions. One wonders how many modern supporters would turn up if we got relegated. Are we only interested in our club if it wins things? Do we all abandon that inheritance of our fathers and grandfathers (some of whom could tell us a story or two about tough times, dire losses, relegation and worse) because we've had a few difficult years? Maybe that's what football is nowadays, in a world where coming 'fourth' is somehow considered more important than a trophy.

Of course we want more. Of course it's painful. Nothing good is accomplished without pain - that's why we rightly laugh at the Plastics. But I don't see players who are casually turning up for the pay packet. I see young lads trying to learn, making mistakes, and feeling the burden of disappointment crush them immediately rather than having their spirits raised for another go at the breach. Frankly, it isn't that shower down the road who are the Bitters anymore. Backalong, we never believed we could be beaten as some have noted in the thread. It's not a sports psychologist with a fancy book who instills that belief. To me, that was because the fans never gave up, and raised the heads and spirits of the players and manager for yet another go. We inspired them as they inspired us.

Because that surely, is what supporters do.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:00:50 pm by The Repeated Meme »
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Offline scimitarsam

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Re: Mentality, the deeper routed problem
« Reply #247 on: February 15, 2013, 05:19:30 pm »
Life is rarely simple - its never going to be down to just one thing

Confidence and focus for me are both lacking and whilst they should come from within the players its down to Rodgers to make it work...

I think there's a lot of truth in your post their Vulmea. Well thought through and you raise some interesting points.

Wanted to hit on a few thoughts here and sorry in advance because it may turn into a bit of a ramble...


My 2p's worth on Pyschology:

I said early that "psychology" is going to be Rodger's toughest test. Rafa called in "Mentality".....basically it's belief, confidence and if you want to take it to another level the ancient Shankly-lead, Paisley, Fagan, Evans etc etc "Liverpool Way".

I'll get murdered for this but look down the East Lancs Road at the juggernaut United have become. In '86 they were a mess, in no-mans-land as a club, as a team and any reputation as a "giant" had slowly faded along with the years since they were winning things regularly in the 50s and 60s.

Ferguson went in and it took him 6 seasons to win the league title. With regard to how he achieved this from a pschological perspective it was through pure fear; the well documented hair-dryer treatment that our media love so much. His players feared him and he put Stoke-like thugs on the pitch to intimidate opponents and mix with a blend of players of real quailty. He got lucky that the powers of Liverpool, Arsenal and others were fading at the time but his team became a very effective outfit in it's own right.

Not so impressive so far? This is where I give the man credit. He knew using fear as motivation wouldn't sustain success. By the mid 90s he recognised his own failings and addressed them by stocking his ranks with excellent coaching staff and advisors who he could bounce tactical ideas off. I'd hazard a guess that the hair dryer treatment hasn't been used for well over a decade. He didn't need to, the juggernaut was already rolling and only gaining speed.

He's on his what?...6th base-United team now and each one has evolved into a more efficient and effective version of it's predecessor generally speaking. He's had flops but the majority of his youth prospects and transfers have fitted seemlessly into his teams over the years, not just in terms of skills, playing qualities but mostly in terms of their belief in United the brand, the club and the team. Each one of their players eats, sleeps and breathes United and that's why they've regularly overcome teams like Arsenal, Chelsea and City that have perhaps been better on paper. I hate to use them as the example but this is where we once were and it's the leading example of what we should be aiming to get back to.

My point? The psychology we need - belief, confidence, focus, and an enduring love and pride in the shirt takes time, a long time to achieve. It's very difficult to get it started and it took Ferguson 6 years to simply kick it off. To develop it you need to win consistently, to win consistently you need this pyschology! It's not a viscious circle we're trying to break out of, it's one we need to break into, and this is Rodger's biggest challenge. If he can do it, he'll go down as one of the great managers of this football club.



Why is our defense a leaky bucket?

Because as Vulmea and other's have said - we're basically a team in transition and we're going to be for some time yet.

I believe Rodgers' aim is for us to become a pressing team ( see PoP's fantastic thread here: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=302468.0 ). We're not a pressing team right now, but we do have individual players pressuring the opponent high up the pitch on our good days, full backs coming high up the pitch and centre backs holding a high line. I cannot account for Skrtel and Agger's unexplained personal loss of form at defending certain 1v1s and set-pieces (especially corners). What I will say is that if we can become an effective team that press the opposition high up the pitch, those counter's don't get launched to begin with. In theory we'll be breaking up play, forcing them back and turning them over for quick attacks of our own while the ball is already deep within their half of the pitch.

In summary, we're a half and half team right now, we do some things very well and are getting better, other things we do poorly or haven't started to do them even though they are part of the long term vision. Good base teams can take advantage of our current situation and have done. The result; a pissed off fanbase and a team sat at the bottom of that pyschological barrel.


On Rodgers:

Thought's of throwing the baby out with the bath water are laughable. Anything good and worthwhile takes time. Rodger's and Liverpool are at the same level. Young manager, young team. Therefore they're a good fit. We should make the mistakes and put the corrections in together. I believe in his vision, although I'm not blind and see weaknesses. We have a bumpy road ahead of us. We're a mid-table team who wants to get back to the top and that's going to be a very painful, joyful and exciting attempted journey. There'd be no more of a guarantee of success under any other manager and a hell of a lot less probability for most others. What's the other option, defect to Everton, Fulham or Stoke, sit in 8-14th forwever and have no ambition at all?


On us; the fanbase:

I understand the negativity and the frustration, especially after the head of steam we'd been making at Anfield and away at Arsenal and City. I'm as gutted as anyone.

Seriously though, what's the point of paying these ridiculous ticket prices to jeer, boo and kick our lads' guts when they're down? We're doing it to individuals like Shelvey and the team as a whole. Why would anyone pay money to do that and just encourage more negative behaviour, damage already delicate player's mental states and worse still piss ourselves off even more. Ok, maybe some of the players need a rocket up the arse but that isn't our job, that's down to Rodger's and coaching staff. Our job is to be the 12th man by offering encouragement and lifting the roof.

We play such an important part of our player's and team's pyschology and this must be recognised. For a fanbase that literally saved it's own club a few years back for me it's been us more than our team that's been the biggest let down recently.
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Offline alvaro

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #248 on: February 16, 2013, 03:52:21 am »
I dont understand the arguments that blame the fans, is not like Chelsea have world class fans yet somehow they are third and we are ninth. The other thing is that I usually agree with Fatscouser but I believe he is wrong with regards to the high wages argument because other teams ahead of us in the table also have players with the same astronomic wages.
With regards to the topic in hand I dont think its as easy as saying the team lacks bollocks, that seems a bit cliche to me to be honest. Its not all about fighting spirit, its also about being fucking focused, to me the second goal we conceded against Zenit is simply a concentration problem, its not lack of fight. What we need to do is to ask ourselves why are certain players playing below the standards they can, is it because they are too nervous, is it because they are trying to hard, they dont give a fuck, they lose concentration too easily? Or is it just tactics? Once we make the diagnosis then we need to see if we can actually solve the issue with a psycologist, an experienced players or whatever.  Its hard to imagine the staff isnt already working on this but its hard to get rid of bad habits unless you have never worked on it before, maybe our players already reached their "concentration ceiling" and we just need to buy better players. Are we working on this issues on the academy?  Too many questions and too little answers unfortunaly.

Offline murdell

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #249 on: February 16, 2013, 05:11:24 am »
The things managers say mean f all. If they did then every manager would say the same thing. We are reaching here it is obvious. WE DONT HAVE PLAYERS OF YESTER YEAR its simple. The quicker you all realise it the quicker we can stop with rubbish threads about mind fucking games. Who is the best team in the league? United. Mind games wins titles you lot think. Mind games is just an extension of fergies personality its not management and never will be. He wins titles because he has the best players for his philosophy on the game. That's it.

We want old cart horse heros and possession play. You are all whoppers and you are clueless. Most of our fan base think were trying to play toki taka its ducking laughable. We've been playing counter with good old Stevie g for months. That's why Allen hasn't played. Were not looking to our future Brendan is placating all u whoppers so you won't sack him to the detriment of his style. Yup the style you all think he wants he hasn't played for months. Think on that. Whoppers.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #250 on: February 18, 2013, 03:54:19 pm »
The things managers say mean f all. If they did then every manager would say the same thing. We are reaching here it is obvious. WE DONT HAVE PLAYERS OF YESTER YEAR its simple. The quicker you all realise it the quicker we can stop with rubbish threads about mind fucking games. Who is the best team in the league? United. Mind games wins titles you lot think. Mind games is just an extension of fergies personality its not management and never will be. He wins titles because he has the best players for his philosophy on the game. That's it.

We want old cart horse heros and possession play. You are all whoppers and you are clueless. Most of our fan base think were trying to play toki taka its ducking laughable. We've been playing counter with good old Stevie g for months. That's why Allen hasn't played. Were not looking to our future Brendan is placating all u whoppers so you won't sack him to the detriment of his style. Yup the style you all think he wants he hasn't played for months. Think on that. Whoppers.

Read the thread you cock.

Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #251 on: February 22, 2013, 09:43:53 am »
http://www.thefa.com/News/st-georges-park/2013/jan/minimise-the-chimp

Dr Steve Peters answers questions by attendees from 2012 FA Licensed Coaches' Conference
Quote
Dr Steve Peters is the renowned sports psychiatrist who worked with Sir Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton during Great Britain Cycling’s impressive Olympic medal haul at London 2012.

Speaking at The FA Licensed Coaches’ Club conference in December 2012, Peters stressed that the very best athletes develop methods to manage their inner ‘chimp’, which is the emotional and irrational part of the brain triggered by anxiety and fear.

Peters also works in football, and has recently taken up a part-time consultancy role at Liverpool FC.

After December’s coaching event Dr Peters invited the 600 attendees to send through questions on the subject. Here’s a selection of the best questions and Dr Peters’ responses.

Was it a natural leap to move from ‘psychopath’ to cycle path?

Not really! It was by pure chance that I was asked to give an opinion on a cyclist and then this escalated.

After four years of part-time work I took the jump and went full-time with cycling. It was a very different world but my work is with people and how their minds function therefore the field in which I go is not the important aspect.

You eluded in your presentation that IQ is fixed and there's nothing we can do about it? Is this correct and do you think it's perhaps sending the wrong message for us as coaches?

IQ is the recognised psychological means to assess a person’s intellectual intelligence. There is evidence from research that this is fairly fixed and cannot be altered. By revising on how to do intelligence tests you can falsely improve your mark but this isn’t a real improvement in intellectual ability.

However, IQ is not the only form of intelligence. Learning from situations and becoming stress wise are two examples of different forms of intelligence and these can be improved. We can all build on our skills and knowledge, which will lead to better performance.

How big is the task ahead of you at Liverpool FC and does the average footballer understand you?

I think the task is big but not impossible. The biggest plus is having someone like [manager] Brendan Rodgers and his staff to work with. They are insightful and we work together so it’s a partnership.

This makes a massive difference. As with all skills it will take time. How far we can go will depend on how we maximise our skills and clearly also on the footballer's ability to play football.

I can only comment on the footballers that I have worked with so far and they have all been very positive and engaging so no problem there.

Being understood is about my ability to explain things at an appropriate level. So if a footballer doesn’t understand then I guess I need to work harder!

How would you work with a person like Paolo Di Canio? How would you tame the beast?

Whenever I work with anyone I work with him or her as an individual. I always begin by establishing what it is that they want and why.

I then look at the experience that they currently have. We then together explore their mind and how it is working. We then make adjustments and practice these in order to effect changes. It always relies on the person wanting to change and making the commitment to do so.

How do we get rid of the ‘chimps’ on the touchlines at junior football matches?

If you stop and think about it, only the person who has the Chimp is capable of dealing with it. So if they choose not to or if they willingly use their Chimp then there is a limit to how much you can manage their Chimp.

You can influence their Chimp by setting rules or sometimes by discussing with them what they think they are achieving or what disruptive influence they are having. Some people would be more amenable than others.

I have had to deal with disruptive parents in sport before. Most did appreciate being involved and discussing the problem and changed their behaviour following the discussions. Some chose not to listen and rules then have to be made and enforced!

It seems a lot of people around me only have the ‘chimp’ in their head. So far I'm strong enough to prevent them from controlling me. Are there any simple ways to keep doing so?

It is tough. Once you can see that people are in Chimp mode it can become frustrating because you can see how it isn’t helpful.

However, if you can see they are in Chimp mode then it’s a case of accepting that and working with it. Sometimes by helping to manage their Chimp they will calm down and flick across into Human mode.

Accepting that this is the way that people are built can be a hard thing to do. Once you accept this then learning to manage people’s Chimps is the next step.

As an everyday human I can be a ‘chimp’ quite often, but as a coach I can be reflective. Is there hope if I put the time in for my everyday human?

My experience with this model is that if a person is determined and makes time, just a few minutes each day, they will definitely get improvement in their everyday life. It’s like gaining a level in sport; you have to work at it to maintain it and the more you work at it the better you get.

Do you believe that different nationalities have the ability to control the chimp better than others in sport?

Yes. We all have a cultural influence as well as a genetic influence. Even the influence of a family upbringing can have a large part in how you manage your emotions.

You mentioned that motivation is 'useless'. Does that mean that we should ignore it when working with our young players?

I pushed this point heavily because I hear so much about getting everyone motivated. Motivation is not a bad thing. It is an emotional aspect to help drive us with enthusiasm. Sadly, it is fickle and constantly needs topping up. So if a player is motivated this isn’t bad, it can only help.

However, you don’t need to rely on motivation to get a job done or to be successful. You need to rely on commitment.

The Human within us works with commitment. This doesn’t vary because it’s based not on emotion but on logic. Logic doesn’t change, so people with thought-through commitment don’t allow their emotions to side-track them.

Commitment has a high prediction of success whereas motivation is not as predictable in leading to success. For children, being complimented and encouraged is pretty critical.

This will not only motivate them but also help them to commit to plans. It is an important lesson when [you are] young to learn to do what you have to do rather than do what you have to do only when you feel like it. Youngsters can therefore learn commitment with compliments and encouragement.


Which book did Ronnie O’Sullivan read before asking 20 pages of questions?

He read my book ‘the Chimp Paradox’. The point I was making here is just how serious he was in really getting to understand what was happening within his own mind and then working to put it right.

The bit about motivation seems to fall strongly inline with the approach in this thread of how motivation should be used. Nice to know we've gotten our heads round what he's trying to do!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 09:47:51 am by BreakfastPercy »

Offline Phil M

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #252 on: February 22, 2013, 09:48:15 am »
http://www.thefa.com/News/st-georges-park/2013/jan/minimise-the-chimp


The bit about motivation seems to fall strongly inline with the approach in this thread of how motivation should be used. Nice to know we've gotten our heads round what he's trying to do!

Good post, although it was only halfway down I realised they weren't talking about how to stop Gareth Bale. :P
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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #253 on: February 22, 2013, 09:55:37 am »
Good post, although it was only halfway down I realised they weren't talking about how to stop Gareth Bale. :P
;D If an infinite number of Chimps had an infinite number of typewriters...


Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #254 on: February 22, 2013, 12:51:05 pm »
Quote
Commitment has a high prediction of success whereas motivation is not as predictable in leading to success. For children, being complimented and encouraged is pretty critical.

This will not only motivate them but also help them to commit to plans. It is an important lesson when [you are] young to learn to do what you have to do rather than do what you have to do only when you feel like it. Youngsters can therefore learn commitment with compliments and encouragement.

This bit is important in the context of Rodgers, because he gets some stick from some quarters for praising the team even after a loss. However, it's important for people to realise that players at that level truly do respond to positive reinforcement, and if you look at the things he's praised, it has consistently been for the style of play, and most importantly, the effort and workrate. This is important as Carol Dweck showed in Mindset - if you praise the outcome or supply the ego with compliments ("Great win!", "What a great player you are") then the player's level will stay where they can receive the most compliments, whereas if you praise the effort ("Keep working hard, it'll work out soon", "Fantastic effort!") then players will want to keep working harder and will accept more and bigger challenges and will constantly seek improvement. That doesn't mean that they won't get any criticism, but it will usually be one on one with the manager, and rarely will it be a blanket public statement.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #255 on: February 22, 2013, 04:41:27 pm »
This bit is important in the context of Rodgers, because he gets some stick from some quarters for praising the team even after a loss. However, it's important for people to realise that players at that level truly do respond to positive reinforcement, and if you look at the things he's praised, it has consistently been for the style of play, and most importantly, the effort and workrate. This is important as Carol Dweck showed in Mindset - if you praise the outcome or supply the ego with compliments ("Great win!", "What a great player you are") then the player's level will stay where they can receive the most compliments, whereas if you praise the effort ("Keep working hard, it'll work out soon", "Fantastic effort!") then players will want to keep working harder and will accept more and bigger challenges and will constantly seek improvement. That doesn't mean that they won't get any criticism, but it will usually be one on one with the manager, and rarely will it be a blanket public statement.

where does it go though - once you've run out of superlatives what do you use next - and doesn't that only work if the player believes thats what they actually did - - if you compliment them for playing great when they played poorly - how does that impact the psyche?

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Phil M

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #256 on: February 22, 2013, 04:44:46 pm »
;D If an infinite number of Chimps had an infinite number of typewriters...



;D
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #257 on: February 22, 2013, 05:49:11 pm »
where does it go though - once you've run out of superlatives what do you use next - and doesn't that only work if the player believes thats what they actually did - - if you compliment them for playing great when they played poorly - how does that impact the psyche?

That's the point I was making - you don't praise the outcome, you praise the effort.

Praise the outcome, the player will only do what is necessary to maintain that praise

Praise the effort, and a player will be intrinsically motivated to to work harder the next time.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TTXrV0_3UjY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/TTXrV0_3UjY</a>
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #258 on: February 26, 2013, 11:03:54 am »
That's the point I was making - you don't praise the outcome, you praise the effort.

Praise the outcome, the player will only do what is necessary to maintain that praise

Praise the effort, and a player will be intrinsically motivated to to work harder the next time.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TTXrV0_3UjY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/TTXrV0_3UjY</a>

aye - but the point I was trying to make was - what if the effort wasn't there? what if the player thinks it wasn't there but is being praised?

footballers are just people

some footballers are slackers they'll do the minimum they have to

some footballers are driven and are never satisfied with what they've done

 in both instances I can see 'praise' backfiring
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline The Woolster

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #259 on: March 6, 2013, 05:03:58 pm »
Craig Bellamy had an interview in the London Evening Standard yesterday, and had this to say

Quote
Bellamy admits some of the incidents that have marred his career were due to his upbringing. Leaving his Cardiff home at 15 to join Norwich made him intensely homesick and he grew up “angry and bitter”.

“Sometimes I would jump into situations without thinking,” says the 33-year-old. “I’d say things which lead you into the wrong situation and trouble. Now, I do not react like that at all.”

But the change in his attitude is not merely a case of an older, more wiser Bellamy. It is, he says, thanks to  Steve Peters, who came into his life 16 months ago.

This is the psychiatrist Bellamy went to after the death of his former team-mate Gary Speed and then Wales manager who he has described as an “idol”. And while he refuses to discuss Speed’s death — “it’s something personal to me” — he is happy to talk about Peters, who has helped other sports stars such as multiple Olympic cycling champions Sir Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton.

“He introduced me to a new world about enjoying who I am and looking at the positive parts of life, instead of beating yourself up and putting yourself into situations that you end up regretting. So you have to look back and say, yeah, I’ve had a great career, I’ve worked so hard to get where I have, why obsess about injuries, about certain situations that you have no control over? Why let that destroy your life?”

The Peters effect means Bellamy, who returned to Cardiff last summer, rates this period as the best of his life.

And with Cardiff leading the ­Championship and closing in on a return to the top flight for the first time in 41 years it could get even better.

“By a long way, I’ve enjoyed this ­season more than I’ve ever enjoyed football. It gives me even better satisfaction and I’m able to enjoy it more because of the person I am now. I am happier all round and in my personal life. For a long time I wasn’t and I let that eat away at me more and more.”

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/interviews/craig-bellamy-i-want-to-be-one-of-the-greatest-bosses-that-has-ever-lived-8520267.html

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #260 on: March 7, 2013, 10:49:46 pm »
Do we need better footballers or stronger leaders in the team?

We need to remember that we have a good but very young squad, and we are losing one of our most vocal leaders this season, so who is going to take up the mantle, not Agger, not Suarez, Stevie has always led by example, so who ?
I think if Rodgers is looking for experienced players in the summer he needs to make sure they have strong voices and strong characters as well.
Another Gary Mac if possible, maybe he sees this in Ashley Williams ? He does know him well.  We have brilliant young players but they need a couple of experienced and vocal heads around them. In my opinion.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #261 on: March 8, 2013, 08:47:02 pm »
The Zlatan article in the Blizzard this quarter shows how not everyone is wired the same way.

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #262 on: April 2, 2013, 03:27:08 pm »
Read this over the weekend and found it interesting, then thought of this thread

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/26/sport/football/football-brain-mourinho-messi

Mind over matter: Soccer's bid to train the brain
By CNN

Today's soccer professionals have a battery of physios, fitness trainers and doctors all striving to fine-tune their players' physique for optimum performance.

But are football clubs missing a trick in overlooking dedicated training for the most important organ of all -- the brain?

Scientists at London's Brunel University believe the game's top talents, such as Barcelona's Lionel Messi and Real Madrid's Cristiano Ronaldo, have mental faculties that are better programmed to anticipate their opponents' moves.

Research published in the Journal of Sport and Exercise Psychology found that of 39 players tested, the more experienced footballers were able to suppress the urge to act instinctively, making them less susceptible to feints or tricks from their opponents.

Brunel's study reinforces the view held by one of the greatest players of all time -- Johan Cruyff, who said that football is a game you play with your brain -- and offers tantalizing prospects for clubs.

Should they be able to unpick the best way to condition the brain's ability to anticipate an opponent's trickery, it could lead to better players and a potential stampede as clubs rush to add a neuroscientist to their back-room teams.

"I can see top teams employing neuroscientists in the future," Dr. Dan Bishop from Brunel's Center for Sports Medicine and Human Performance told CNN.

"That's because we have the skills and resources to witness very subtle changes in perceptual abilities that may not initially manifest in performance data, because people can change their mind midway through a task and therefore give an erroneous response, when in fact their initial 'preattentive' brain response was the correct one.

"I imagine that this will be most useful at academy level, to assess the development of young players."

Bishop believes the findings could help nurture a new generation of young sports stars in Britain, which is seeking to capitalize on a potential increase in participation following the London 2012 Olympics.

"We believe this greater level of neural activity is something that can be developed through high-quality training, so the next step will be to look at how the brain can be trained over time to anticipate the moves of opponents," he said.

"Particularly following on from the Olympics, with more people being encouraged to take up sport, we hope that our findings can be used to refine and speed up training techniques to nurture the potential in budding young sports stars."

During the trial, players ranging from novices to semiprofessionals were placed in an MRI scanner and shown video clips of a player dribbling towards them. They then had to decide in which direction to move in order to tackle them.

The study found the better players were more sensitive to moves and tricks by an opponent than those at the less talented end of the scale, which came as no surprise to Bishop. "I am confident the findings would be even stronger with professional players," he said.

"Much of the activation we saw was comparable to the activations we had witnessed in our previous studies of badminton players -- which included a large number of international athletes."

There is growing group of coaches who need no convincing of the power of the brain in developing top players.

One of them is Kevin McGreskin, technical director at Soccer Eye Q -- a company that specializes in elite performance coaching.

"I think that coaches either forget, or don't even realize, that football is a hugely cognitive sport," he said in an interview with football magazine The Blizzard.

"We've got to develop the players' brains as well as their bodies but it's much easier to see and measure the differences we make to a player's physiology than we can with their cognitive attributes."

His views are shared by Michel Bruyninckx, formerly academy director for Belgian club Standard Liege and now at Qatar's Aspire Academy, who is something of a pioneer when it comes to brain training in soccer players.

He places huge value on "brain-centered learning" and devised a specific program designed to foster improvement in a young player's cognitive skills. Bruyninckx places the same level of importance of neuroscience as he does football tactics.

Both Bruyninckx and McGreskin have embraced "overload" drills to help tune players' brains, where some might be asked to speak in different languages during fitness training while others are asked to toss a tennis ball around and call out colors during sessions involving the football.

"We need to develop an engram -- a neurological track -- in the brain," Bruyninckx told The Blizzard. "We always thought that sporting activities were mechanical activities, but we know that there are interventions from the brain."

Bruyninckx's work has been acknowledged by one of the world's top soccer coaches, Jose Mourinho, the current manager at Real Madrid who has won titles in four different countries and lifted the European Champions League twice.

"Mourinho immediately understood what I'm trying to do and he asked a lot of intelligent questions," said Bruyninckx.

"He also noticed that the organization of the drills requires a greater team involvement, more concentration, attention, a continuous inciting of perception and that intelligent playing could grow a lot."

Offline -Daws-

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #263 on: April 14, 2013, 03:06:23 pm »
Would just like to say, I don’t know how I’ve managed to miss this thread but I’ve just stumbled across it and the opening post is a belter BreakfastPercy, some excellent quotes and insight mixed with light humour, love it.

aye - but the point I was trying to make was - what if the effort wasn't there? what if the player thinks it wasn't there but is being praised?

footballers are just people

some footballers are slackers they'll do the minimum they have to

some footballers are driven and are never satisfied with what they've done

 in both instances I can see 'praise' backfiring

I think there is a slight separation between managing a young players technical abilities and their work rate. Quite often, the players who seem withdrawn from a high workload are simply unfit. There’s only a certain level to which their fitness levels can be worked upon at training, because a balanced diet and active lifestyle are crucial and that is dependent on their parents and family life at home. Sometimes you can see a differece in a player’s commitment/effort dependant on the situation and the attacking/defensive motivation – this can be worked upon in two incentive based ways. Either by simply pointing out a better player within the squad who shows the enthusiasm that is required to make an important player, or explaining the individual and team benefits of putting in a bit extra. For example you may have a forward with good technical ability, who is a little unfit in comparison to his peers and not showing the effort desired defensively. In this situation  you can point out that high intensity pressing will allow the team (maybe himself) to win possession higher up the pitch, making it more likely he will get a chance to score; reward based incentives.

When it comes to the direct in game coaching, to get to your point Vulmea, I don’t think praise is necessary then it comes to effort and workrate. I think simply questioning it can be an instructive style development, in regards to the player I alluded too; ‘J I know you can give a little more, make sure you can provide protection to x like b is and rest when we have the ball if you need to, keep going lad’. Nothing too negative about that, but you get the required information across that he needs to do more of what he doesn’t like and less of what he does, encouraging him to do as you’ve asked, whilst still being led by their attacking instincts and therefore giving you a little extra.  I’d say it’s only a theory but I’ve tested it on my under 10s side with a couple of players and they’ve improved immensely. As I made the point earlier though, they can still only do what their bodies allow them to and that depends a lot on the lifestyle implemented by their parents, at least at my level, at a club as big as Liverpool I’d imagine the lifestyle demands of the club have a huge influence on how the parents chose to nutrition their child.

When it comes to adult club level, I don’t think negative input has as much of an emotional effect on a player’s performance; you have to be far more careful with what you say to a younger player because their brain and personality is still in development. On an older player a hard hitting incentive can be far more effective, as we saw when Rafa proposed to sell Xabi Alonso, and Rodgers with Downing; both threating to release these players unless elements of physical ability improve. Henderson can be added to that list of players we have seen vast improvements after similar treatment. Whether it’s workrate, ability or mentality, they've all gone on to improve their weaknesses. Believing they are good enough to be an important part of a system but can never be above it is key. It relates to the club as well as the system of course, and there should be little more motivation than a walk round the trophy room at Anfield or a video of Istanbul in order to realise what is required. In that respect we have an advantage over a Man City or Chelsea.

Praise shouldn’t backfire, and if it does it can be quickly rectified with a hard negative, like a shock to the heart. Consistent performance is required to survive, but when it drops off it needs a jolt - There’s more than likely some kind of link between brain and heart in this respect, but that definitely is theory. ;D


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