Topic: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC

[Rafasacolytereturns]

Quality post that Yorky, felt the same way myself, so excited for yesterday.

However once the chances started going amiss yet again and Gera buried that screamer into Pepe's goal...deja vu and you just knew what was going to come next

[Timbo's Goals]

I guess the reasons why we lost and the ramifications have all been said and articulated so eloquently in some superb posts above by so many that there seems scarcely any point in reiterating them. Yet the need to put something in print becomes overwhelming after a kick in the bollocks such as that.

I think a few things will have impacted pretty dramatically on Rodgers and his staff at the time and most certainly when they analyse the playback. And despite all the talk of 'early days' I hope they will act quickly to address them. Whilst this may not  be a quick fix situation in overall terms - with the run of games we have coming up we simply have to make sure we're giving ourselves a fighting chance in those games. The home advantage will clearly give us something extra but we need eleven men showing themselves and giving their utmost not eight or nine.

You cannot carry passengers let alone liabilities in ANY premier League game. West Brom's performance as a collective team effort was superb yesterday. Very impressive for 90 minutes. Every player gave his all. Ours - or I should say our first half when it we looked good at times - tended to be down to individuals. Luis, Joe allen, Lucas and Glen johnstone basically cornered our positive moments. Most glaringly as soon as the going gets tough the promise that Downing seems to offers against also rans drains like dishwater down a gully. The lad at this level has the heart of a bug. In essence he was anonymous. No place for that. None at all. We as regular supporters already knew it of course. Now Brendan and his lads will I'm sure be on the case.

Second, - and I'm sorry to say what amounts to yet another passenger on the day - in a hard fought game central midfield in Rodgers preferred 4-3-3 let alone a 4-4-2 is no place for the current Steven Gerrard. He can operate as the support striker in a 4-4-2 or as the front right or even left flank of a 4-3-3 but centre mid in either system? No... feckin... way. Get Shelvey in the middle with Allen and Lucas to share the burden and stiffen it up, ditch Downing and for his savvy and superb crossing from the flank put Stevie on the right if you're sticking to the 4-3-3.

Third, poor old Fabio Borini needs some time to adjust to the pace and cynicism of the Premier league's crew of assassins. The poor fellow becomes effectively the third passenger virtue of his need for adjustment time. Given time, I'm sure he's got enough ingredients to adapt but at the moment he's effectively another passenger, so bring him on from the bench as and when.

Final word on Dowd. My take is that he's like so many other English officials when it comes to Liverpool games. If anything they seem to be looking to lean against us in their judgements. No what you'd term out and out bias but just a marginal tendency to favour whoever it is we're playing against when there's any call for interpretation of an incident. Many of the decisions yesterday could have gone either way or should i say we've seen them going either way in hundreds of previous games. The Agger incident - had Olsen given such a tiny nudge on Suarez in that same situation who'd bet against Dowd awarding a free kick on the edge of the box and a yellow card? Sometimes they're given, sometimes they're not. However, in so many instances they do flop against us. Had the Olsen elbow smack in Luis's gob been Agger on Long then Agger might well have been taking an even earlier bath. hard to take but i don't see it changing. It seems to be part of the current officialdom DNA. For so many years for the most part it seemed to be the other way round against what we'd term the lesser teams. No longer the case though.       

[has gone odd]

where do you start with that game, it was poor by us, very poor. the 1st game quite often sets the tone so was thrilled to get wba as our opener but fuckin hell, die hards can see the positives but mortals like me cannot be delighted with anything. the travelling support were singing their lungs out right up until the 2nd goal went in then that was that. we reverted to plan 'headless chicken' and proceeded to be very sloppy. it was this aspect of the game that upset me the most. this is not the liverpool of any era from rafa and prior .. its simply a damn worry.

both manager and owners talk a great talk, actually had me fooled we would compete a little bit more, however on that evidence we are same old same old.

i get even more annoyed when folk proudly announce that its just one game and everything will gel in time. am damn sure it will but what point in time is anyones guess really. wba played well, considering they have a new manager and all and 'need time to gel and fit into a new system' - blah its all bollocks. swansea hammered a team that made us looked like dicks last season n all, new manager and system there to .. plus we nabbed a good player from them! sommit is very wrong at our club atm and its probably disruption behind closed doors causing it. players look affected by it to.

that game hurt a lot and makes brendan's job even tougher. the ref was an utter ass but sick of blaming them .. our football on the day was average to downright disgraceful.

imho ofc.

[woof]

More tweaking needed where the players are concerned. Downing should be off if he still doesn't show us anything. I'd rather play Assaidi. It's clear we need goals. Suarez had 15 last season and our next best was Bellamy who's no longer with us. Ditto Kuyt. Borini may eventually come good with 10+ goals per season but that's not enough. It's obvious we need someone like Dempsey or if BR permit, Carroll.

[Garcepticon]

First half you lot were very good, and looked like you might score every time you went forward.  The problem was, you didn't.

That is our biggest problem for the past 12 months, and I believe the reason we are in this position is Luis Suarez. Suarez is a liability, from my recollection, he has only scored more than once in two games for Liverpool - against Norwich and Stoke in the cup. He is considered our best striker, yet he barely hits the back of the net relative to how often he shoots. Therefore, the way Kenny persisted with playing him as our main threat was madness, if the conduit through which you are meant to score is ineffective then your team will end up with less goals and they will be broken by wondergoals from Gera. If we had scored those chances against Arsenal last year through a composed No.9, then RVP could have scored that header and we wouldn't have been so vunerable.

Ultimately, and this is knee jerk but I think it is what we as a fanbase/club need to be talking about, the success of Brendan Rodgers relies on what he can get out of Luis Suarez. Arsene Wenger got CL football almost exclusively with the efforts of RVP - can Rodgers do the same? If someone as meticulous as Benitez was here I am positive he would have figured this out, but Rodgers predecessor wasn't an analyst and so the problem falls to him. In a LW/RW or even as a No10 how would he perform?

Obviously there is a problem with replacing the No.9 position, we could break the bank for that man because he may be worth CL football to us, perhaps more if he stays a few seasons and gets us converting chances. Personally, I am baffled by Rodgers idiotic exclusion of Andy Carroll. At Newcastle he was astounding and he had the faith of the fans, manager and fellow players. Here he definitely has the faith of the fans, perhaps his fellow players but Rodgers has done fuck all for his confidence. I think Sean Rogers had a point on TAW, say to him you are my main man, you have ten games you don't have to worry about missing chances, being dropped or getting subbed. This is your chance - show me what you can do. With that support from the manager, what could he do? He certainly was clinical at Newcastle. Without Rodgers I'm positive he can't be here. Furthermore, does the entire front four need to be rotating, can we not have a fixed reference point in Carroll on the last man and getting in the box.

Additional point - Kelly is not a natural ball player, and that is what we need. The L/RB in this team are a major focus for our passing and to have Kelly there is madness, I'd prefer Flanno who is worse defensively but probably more natural on the ball.  Kelly needs to really put in a shift because he has stagnated massively in the past year.

Anyway good luck with the rest of the season etc etc.

Cheers, you too, Long and Mulumbu are incredible btw.

[Asam]

I guess the reasons why we lost and the ramifications have all been said and articulated so eloquently in some superb posts above by so many that there seems scarcely any point in reiterating them. Yet the need to put something in print becomes overwhelming after a kick in the bollocks such as that.

I think a few things will have impacted pretty dramatically on Rodgers and his staff at the time and most certainly when they analyse the playback. And despite all the talk of 'early days' I hope they will act quickly to address them. Whilst this may not  be a quick fix situation in overall terms - with the run of games we have coming up we simply have to make sure we're giving ourselves a fighting chance in those games. The home advantage will clearly give us something extra but we need eleven men showing themselves and giving their utmost not eight or nine.

You cannot carry passengers let alone liabilities in ANY premier League game. West Brom's performance as a collective team effort was superb yesterday. Very impressive for 90 minutes. Every player gave his all. Ours - or I should say our first half when it we looked good at times - tended to be down to individuals. Luis, Joe allen, Lucas and Glen johnstone basically cornered our positive moments. Most glaringly as soon as the going gets tough the promise that Downing seems to offers against also rans drains like dishwater down a gully. The lad at this level has the heart of a bug. In essence he was anonymous. No place for that. None at all. We as regular supporters already knew it of course. Now Brendan and his lads will I'm sure be on the case.

Second, - and I'm sorry to say what amounts to yet another passenger on the day - in a hard fought game central midfield in Rodgers preferred 4-3-3 let alone a 4-4-2 is no place for the current Steven Gerrard. He can operate as the support striker in a 4-4-2 or as the front right or even left flank of a 4-3-3 but centre mid in either system? No... feckin... way. Get Shelvey in the middle with Allen and Lucas to share the burden and stiffen it up, ditch Downing and for his savvy and superb crossing from the flank put Stevie on the right if you're sticking to the 4-3-3.

Third, poor old Fabio Borini needs some time to adjust to the pace and cynicism of the Premier league's crew of assassins. The poor fellow becomes effectively the third passenger virtue of his need for adjustment time. Given time, I'm sure he's got enough ingredients to adapt but at the moment he's effectively another passenger, so bring him on from the bench as and when.

Final word on Dowd. My take is that he's like so many other English officials when it comes to Liverpool games. If anything they seem to be looking to lean against us in their judgements. No what you'd term out and out bias but just a marginal tendency to favour whoever it is we're playing against when there's any call for interpretation of an incident. Many of the decisions yesterday could have gone either way or should i say we've seen them going either way in hundreds of previous games. The Agger incident - had Olsen given such a tiny nudge on Suarez in that same situation who'd bet against Dowd awarding a free kick on the edge of the box and a yellow card? Sometimes they're given, sometimes they're not. However, in so many instances they do flop against us. Had the Olsen elbow smack in Luis's gob been Agger on Long then Agger might well have been taking an even earlier bath. hard to take but i don't see it changing. It seems to be part of the current officialdom DNA. For so many years for the most part it seemed to be the other way round against what we'd term the lesser teams. No longer the case though.     

Agree with just about every word, it's easy in hindsight but we should have started with Borini on the bench, he needs time to adjust, and giving him 20-30 mins for the first 7-10 league games and letting him start in the Europa League / Cup games is the way to go.

We had no pace on the bench yesterday, it was a mistake IMO to not have Sterling as an option

 

[peelyon]

Yay round table!

Thought I would try and post what I've got in my head before I read through everyone elses posts so if I end up repeating a few of you then apologies!

There were a number of factors yesterday that summed things up for me.  Firstly we can still create good chances, and Luis struggles finishing them.  After giving Downing a fresh slate for a new season I found myself moaning and groaning more than ever.  Borini seemed a lot more lively on that right hand side towards the end of the game and I would really love to see Luis on the left, Carroll in the centre and him on that right hand side.

I thought Dowd managed to ruin any good work that might have been done over the summer though.  We say not to dwell on things outside our control but when things arent CONSISTENT then it really does start to grate.  Im not even talking about consistency between refs, Im talking about consistency in the same game!

Now a few of these may be biased, clutching at straws and as bitter as they come but I need to get them out of my head.

1. Luis complains to the linesman by throwing up his arms and shouting at him from 30 yards away - Yellow card.  Long (to the SAME linesman) argues when the ball goes out of play 2nd half and is given to Liverpool, shouts in his face and swears - not even a talking to.

2. Borini is bodychecked inside the box and goes down injured and is booed by opposing fans.  Nothing.  Agger brushes Long outside the box initially and is sent off and a penalty given.

3.  Agger first half runs across Long who has the ball and Long magically falls over because Agger has run into his stride - free kick to WBA.  Skrtel is playing out from the back and Long runs in front of him as he is mid swing to kick the ball - penalty to WBA.

4. Olson cleans out BOTH Luis first half and Carroll second half - Carroll gets booked for afters.

I'm not even really debating the penalties at this stage, but if you are going to give either penalty then Borinis first half should have been awarded as well.  Luis bless must think what the fuck he is going to be given against him this whole season with yellows like that, and did nothing but allow the WBA fans to give the whole "we know what you are" shite.  Up until then they didnt give a toss about Luis.  SO rather than protecting him from getting fouled and shafted by Olson etc AND help protect him from the opposing fans (arguably not in Dowds remit but could be some common sense) he inflames the situation.

A wonder goal from Gera, missed chances from us, 2 penalties and a red card meant players lost their heads.

I love Stevie but fuck me hes a child at times.  He literally goes missing.  The number of passes he let go and then just walked really bugged me more than anything.  Yes the game wasnt going our way but heads were down even at 1-0 and 10men.  I honestly still thought with the right substitution we could have still kicked on.

Could we not have subbed Downing for Carroll rather than Carra?  Put Kelly to CB and put Lucas to RB?  Sounds a bit more risky but then drop Stevie back into the midfield and actually mentally SHOW WBA that "fuck it 10men, were still in this!"  That substitution alone must have made every player go "fuck were trying not to lose this 10-0".

Anyway rant over.  The players need to learn how to get themselves out of a rut if things dont go our way.  We cant control the refs or linesman but fuck me we can show a bit of pride rather than folding after 45minutes.  We have to be more psotive if we go behind to a wonder goal or against the run of play, because it WILL happen again.  Not mope and feel sorry for ourselves with "well we were beating them on possesion and shots first half"

Like someone said in the post match thread, at least we didnt hit the woodwork!

[belfast-connection]

a few concerns arising from this game, or indeed resurfacing after this game

Referees - Phil Dowd has not been the worst for us down the years - I have credited him with a relatively independent mind to the extent he's sent Vidic off against us as least once in my memory when other refs would have cowered under the psychological thrawl that Whiskey Nose has over most of them.

But this display was shocking and indicates we are still reaping the whirlwind of our tete-a-tete with the FA last season over Negrito-gate. Every foul we committed practically resulted in a yellow whilst Olssen and to a lesser extent Ridgewell were free to elbow/shoulder us with impunity. Lucas got a yellow at one stage and I was just about to tweet what a fucking biased wanker Dowd was but before I could he had awarded a pen against Agger and sent him off. We need to sort this. Firstly the captain needs to be in their faces and defend the players properly - he's the only one in the team with the clout to do it and have some sway with the refs. Secondly we need some proper PR making this point - not the sour grapes type grumbling that Kenny engaged in last year, but some astute analysis properly positioned in the press from some of our friends (we have enough of them still) in the media. @JenChang needs to get working on this as we are suffering and will continue to suffer - Suarez most of all.

Our public image is at an all-time low to the extent that even commentators who accept that Agger's push was outside the box are still reluctant to call bullshit on decisions against us - see below.

The Decisions - the decisions themselves were pretty poor. Leaving aside the red cards the first penalty was a foul (a pretty soft one mind) but it was outside the box. England's Michael Owen and the Goals on Sunday team this morning all pretty much agreed on this but the verdict was still - 'was it a penalty? hmm? 50/50' I suppose. Bollocks. Jesus Christ. If it's outside the box it's not a penalty lads. Give us a motherfucking break. The second I can sort of understand but equally I can make the case that Long fouled Skrtel but kicking into his swinging foot. If Long had scored the first penalty a few minutes earlier do you really think that Dowd would've awarded the second? As for the Red Card if he gives a penalty then yes he sends him off but if he realises that it's a soft shove outside the box does he still do so? Probably but it's not so clear-cut.

The Team Mentality - so how long has this been going on for now? That sinking feeling I had yesterday seemed to be the same sinking feeling that I had as far back as the disastrous European group we were in with Lyon in Rafa's last year. Any sort of goal against us and it seemed to break the mentality and you could sort of predict what was coming. And where exactly is the problem? Is it Suarez the Uruguayan street-fighter who would nutmeg his granny for a win? Or Lucas, our King, our Constant, our Solidity in the middle of the park? Is it our Captain Fantastic, England's Captain and greatest player of his generation? Is it Agger and Skrtel our defensive rocks upon which we hope the solid foundations for our future will be built? Where is this mental instability coming from and how do we sort it out?

Personally I think it needs a light at the end of the tunnel for these players. It needs a sign from the owners that the days of Hicks and Gillette are over and this is not a club aspiring to mid-table mediocrity at which they will dwindle away their prime playing days or perhaps get picked up by a 'big club'. In short it needs a marquee signing. It needs a signing that lifts the club and inspires confidence - you know in the way that Andy Carroll's signing should have done.

Any whilst we're at it doesn't Carroll have a bit more about him in terms of fight these days than Downing when in the front line and shouldn't he have come on earlier yesterday, if only to spark a bit of fight into use.

The Manager's Mentality - He talks a good game does Rodgers. He came out with a great quote during the summer which was in answer to a rather unpolitic question about Kenny's reign and one suspected that he was treading lightly over the failures of last season but it remains a pretty good analogy of the situation that a manager finds himself in. It was something along the lines of the manager's job being akin to putting an aircraft into flight but at the same time having it in the hanger in a continual state of redevelopment at the same time.

Brendan might do well to remember that quote and remember that things can't be changed too quickly and be ready to show a bit of flexibilty at times, i.e. the plane might not be ready to cruise at his required speed and height just now and occasionally it might be appropriate to lower the sights and adapt your flight plan to the plane you currently have. His insistence on sticking to his guns yesterday, or trying to, when Plan A was clearly not working might be admirable, gutsy etc. or it might be short-sighted and show a lack of tactical flexibility and a failure to assess the reality of where he actually is with his team. If Plan A isn't working and you think that your team might actually be better served (and better suited) with a Plan B that they'd been playing for the past year why not give it a go. Certainly the decision to bring on Joe Cole, Joe Bloody Cole, to try and turn things around instead of Carroll smacked to me of sheer bloody-mindedness and I wondered if maybe we don't actually have a complete megalomaniac on our hands.

[Wirral1]

Seems as though Gerrard has lost the ability of grabbing the team by the scruff of the neck and dragging them through the game. If he has a stinker and goes hiding there is nobody else to drag us through.

'IF' he has a stinker ?..have you watched the last two years?....yesterday was his normal performance.

[RedHandGang]

We weren't very good on the day, and Rodgers should have realised the Midfield was being overrun and done something about it. West Brom were more physical and this should have been considered but was not. Tiki Taka aint going to work if you have a soft underbelly. Borini got a smack and went into his shell the same with the midfielders at one point Allen pulling out of a 50/50. Too much looking to Dowd and not enough standing up. I hope Rodgers sorts it out as this was embarrassing.

[jaykop]

Look i know we didnt play well yesterday and yes we have played better in pre season but i feel we will come good soon i have faith in the new manager and once he gets the players he needs to get this passing game working the way he wants it too we will be ok.... I just hope all us fans give our full backing to the manager as he is going to need us more than anything other wise we will end up with a new manager every 2 years and that is something we all dont want so please lets give our backing to the team that are on the pitch and the manager so we can get a fast passing game clcking in the next 10 to 15 games ......come on you mighty reds.

[Zeb]

Rewatched the game last night with a little to drink.

A couple of things stood out for me. We created one decent chance before they scored (Suarez' header) and a couple of scruffy arsed ones he made for himself. When we lose the ball/give the ball away, our pressing wasn't done in a way to stop the opposition player from having time to look up and play a pass and that leaves us vulnerable to a quick counter especially out wide. When we're chasing the game, this means we're likely going to be short of cover at the back and makes it even more imperative that the central defender wins his one-on-one with the opposition striker.

Thought Gera's goal was a wonderful piece of skill. Maybe should have had someone get to him a little quicker, but it was a fantastic strike. Shit happens. Agger's sending off came from giving the ball away and not pressing it immediately and then Skrtel losing his one on one with Long. We didn't go into damage limitation and continued to go looking for the equaliser and finished up 3-0 down, with them missing at least one superb chance on top of the missed penalty.

Lot of work for Rodgers ahead. I guess the fundamental thing at the bottom of this yet again is where to play Suarez (in many ways what Brentie's saying). If we only create one excellent chance per game, we need to have a striker on the end of it who will take that chance more times than not. Borini in the central position? Carroll? A.N.Other? The other issues are more around players playing within the system and getting used to its demands and those you'd expect to improve over time; hopefully at least, as I think yorky and kennedy81 make good points about the need for players to have patience when playing this way and not seek to play the high risk ball.

Hopefully Rodgers can make some adjustments very quickly because whilst the odd blip will be excused a repeated series will undermine any long term strategy completely.

[reniformis]

I don't see what Brendan could have done differently that would be guaranteed to have made things better. We can't know and can't legislate for a referee that can't wait to give the opposition all the major decisions.

Yesterday was an absolute horror show. But shit happens. I was hoping the team could hit the ground running, a la the Barnes/Beardsley/Aldridge side but that was totally unrealistic. A new manager trying to teach a new system who couldn't involve his best players until, what, two weeks ago? Even then they were nowhere near ready for a high tempo 90 minutes and still aren't by the look of it. Not a problem that Steve Clarke had, for one. I'm taking solace in looking at Arsenal 12 months ago. Just lost Fabregas and their first results were a draw at the unfancied Newcastle, a 2-0 home defeat to us and an 8-2 humiliation at Old Trafford. They got their shit together and finished third. Spurs got twatted 3-0 and 5-1 in their first two games, against the Manchester clubs. I'm sure their fans were as doom-laden as ours are at the moment. They've both started disappointingly again this season, like us.

We need to put the same team out against City, bar Enrique if fit and Coates (or Carragher if you must), and let them learn.

[shadowraith]

Will clearly take some time to adapt to Rogers style of play. Think Luis is better as a wide attacker than as the 9. We need a backup left back as Glen losses some of his bite playing at left back. Fist half was good but once we were down to 10 men didnt have a chance.

[steveeastend]

I agree about Stevie Yorky, but at the same time I completely understand him: it's soley up to him to create.

There's noone else he can turn to in the final third. Downing is not going to create neither is Borini. When the ball gets to Stevie after a few passes like you say, his natural instinct must be to think "Right, I need to get the ball to Luis because otherwise, noone else will".

And the question is, and this question will have to be answered in order to avoid this kind of policy for the future, why ffs we didn´t even try to bring in a top quality attacking midfielder in addition and instead added one average squad player after another.

We are lacking quality not because there wasn´t any money to spend, there also were a lot of options to go for in the market but for whatever reason we didn´t even try.

With the quality around it will be difficult for Rodgers, that´s for sure, as his tactical approach is far from being the detailed wizard as Rafa could offer f.e. Trying to protect Gerrard or whatever other reasons there might be...buying players like Adam, Dempsey, Downing and to some extend Allen just serves the people insisting this to be a long term project again.

Which is bullshite, it never is at a club like LiverpoolFC obviously having enough money to spent 20m on a player like Downing, paying massive wages for somebody like Cole while overseeing twice the talent in the international market.

[helmboy_nige]

Some great points from people about Tottenham and Arsenal and their awful starts last season.  Plenty of football to be played and the signs were very good in the first 50 mins or so.

What mustn't happen at this stage is for the club to panic.  It's their responsibility to stick with the system Rodgers is putting together.

A number of players didn't put in a shift yesterday, but we shouldn't jump no them for one game.  Let's see what Hearts and Man City bring for us.

[gamble]

WBA were good, they did everything they had do well and were much more physical than us, they pressed us, pressed high and didn't let our players get time on the ball, breaking fast on the counter. Maybe Steve Clarke learnt this formula from last year with us, maybe he used his knowledge of our players against us (e.g. how skertl likes to take more than a few touches when he gets the ball before releasing it), either way they were ready for us and we weren't ready for them. It felt like a hangover from last season because there really does seem to be a formula to play against us and frustrate us. We have to take our chances when we get them because we struggle after going a goal down.

One of the bad sides of having BR as the manager is that everyone knows his much publicised 'philosophy' and I'm not really sure BR is open to mix things up now and then. Will have to see on that one - The teamsheet was pretty easy to predict yesterday (Enrique/Kelly aside) and the formation.

We defended poorly as a team, hindered by the new midfield. As well as Allen played, he gave a reserved performance compared to last year. His relationship with Lucas, when and where to go needs to develop.
The midfield didn't do the defence any favours either, WBA were given a clear run at our CBs in the first and second half.  Our defenders just couldn't deal with pressure, even in the first half when we were creating chances, the game was going end to end.

 The game was getting stretched (or is that Rafa's blanket) as early as the 20th minute or so, when we lost the ball some of the forwards need to move back and pack the midfield, stopping WBA from making the pitch big.  This is a major warning sign in our game, we need players (or the manager) to recognise this in game and control the tempo. We had some pretty good passing stats but I think it hides how careless Gerrard was with trying to force the issue when we did have control of the ball. BR’s philosophy wasn’t on show yesterday.

There were large pockets of space for WBA to exploit, even in the first half when things were going relatively well for us. Positionally we did look different to last season but the dynamism between defence-mid-attack and players moving forward and going back isn’t there yet. Long way to go yet though, and I do think we will get something from man city next week when we will be more organised and more disciplined.

[steveeastend]

Some great points from people about Tottenham and Arsenal and their awful starts last season.  Plenty of football to be played and the signs were very good in the first 50 mins or so.

The difference is though that Tottenham for whatever reason didn´t play their best players at the beginning of the season if you might remember and Arsenal had injury problems, there was a understandable reason for their slow start.

With us, it´s just another tactical approach with the same sort of quality around, no back up for Suarez, no top talented attacking midfielder and our quality players either past their best, Gerrard, or coming back from injury.

We will need a lot of down to earth football mentality to surive our upcoming games until Rodgers finds the best solution in order to bring out the best of our current players, just dreaming about being Barca won´t be enough.  And I still hope for at least ONE top quality signing for attack or attacking midfield.

[Not A Scouser]

Moments at each end.  Dominated possession but didn't finish at one end.  Skrtel and Agger make a mistake on one counter-attack (Skrtel falls down, Agger pushes a striker in the penalty area taking away a clear goal-scoring chance, that's a penalty and a red card.  0-2 and 10 men, end of game.

If the moments had gone the other way we would have won easily.

At least Joe Cole got hurt again.

[irishmike639]

Again we are undone by a wonder strike.  How many times have we seen that happen?  That said, Clarke had obviously told his team to have a pop if they got a chance given that Ridgewell had a shot from distance in the 1st min to set the tone.  WBA were always going to be ready and firing on all cylinders for this one, the question was whether we would be.  I think the answer, to begin with, was yes.  88% pass completion rate in the 1st half, chasing the ball down when we didn't have it, pressing.  But our Achilles heel was exposed again, we just can't take our chances.

Suarez is a genius, an absolute genius, love him to bits, but he scores 1 in every 7 chances.  That's just not good enough as a main striker.  Whether that will improve or whether others will take on that mantle it's hard to say but until that changes then we are going to struggle to stamp our authority on teams and games where we are dominating the play.  Goals change games and we need to start showing our teeth or else teams are always going to think that they have a chance against us if they can just weather the storm.

As for defensively, playing a high, pressing game is always going to encourage teams to try and get in behind us and it only takes one long ball over the top to produce a race to get onto it.  Once Agger went we lost that pace in the middle.  Can you imagine how bad things could be without him?!

Overall one to forget.  It would be nice to have a home game to start with more than once every 5 seasons.

[cox3100]

people already worrying about our next 4 games

we havent seen man city play so far(there pre season wasnt that good)
arsenal couldnt beat sunderland at home yesterday so theyve had a shit start aswell
sunderland are quite shit
we havent seen man utd play this season yet


people need to calm down and relax,its 1 game into the season,plenty more points to play for before the end

[C@mry]

When Rafa started his first season in 2004, I remember we had some indifferent results as well. our first 5 games:

1. Tottenham away - drew
2. Man City home - won
3. Bolton away - lost
4. WBA home - won
5. Man Utd away - lost

So, if we can give Rafa a chance, then we should offer the same treatment to BR. No?

[royhendo]

Roy, you say you'd like to see Gerrard wide right, so I'm presuming you don't mind Suarez being the centre of the three. Personally I'd like to see him in one of the wider areas, do you not think that'd suit both him as an individual and the team as a whole better?

I think there's always value in three good intelligent players who can interchange up top. Gerrard will learn I think, no matter where he plays. He's older now.

[L666KOP]

I think there's always value in three good intelligent players who can interchange up top. Gerrard will learn I think, no matter where he plays. He's older now.

Gerrard is ripe for moving upfront Roy, the system we play places more emphasis on intelligence and movement rather than outright pace.
I wrote in another thread mate, I think he's too old now to be chasing shadows as part of a high energy pressing midfield.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Although, quite rightly, we're focusing on the impotence of the attack, what worried me was the way our defence was out-paced, then bullied by their forwards. 

Neither Agger nor Skirtel looked comfortable playing a high line and started to drop deeper and deeper, even before the sending off. And, of course, we all know Carra's limitations, so the team appeared confused when he came on - there's been no time to develop a 'Plan B' - should they continue to play the pressing game and leave us exposed to a pacey counter attack? Or should we revert to type, drop deeper and start playing Hollywood balls out of defence?   

We know what happened but it just illustrates that this is an extremely complex process, with a myriad of variables, it will take time for the team to understand how to react in any given circumstance e.g. you can bet your bottom dollar that giving away two penalties and having a player sent off wasn't planned for - there again, looking at previous starts to the season, I don't know why not!?

(NB: I think it also tends to suggest that Coates is under threat, ... due to a perceived lack of pace, maybe?).     

[Sevo]

When Rafa started his first season in 2004, I remember we had some indifferent results as well. our first 5 games:

1. Tottenham away - drew
2. Man City home - won
3. Bolton away - lost
4. WBA home - won
5. Man Utd away - lost

So, if we can give Rafa a chance, then we should offer the same treatment to BR. No?

I went to all those games except United. I don't recall an absolute shambles amongst them. We had some poor games under Rafa, but I don't remember the towel being thrown in. Watching us being dismantled by WBA ,also under a new manager, was appalling, no matter how you want to dress it up.

[Mad Max]

Phil Dowd may as well of worn an Albion shirt. His performance was shocking yesterday.

[L666KOP]

With all due respect mate, there's a very real possibility we could be six games in and on zero points, I doubt it like, but it's a possibility given we're without Agger next game, and considering our fixtures.

[Bob Loblaw]

With all due respect mate, there's a very real possibility we could be six games in and on zero points, I doubt it like, but it's a possibility given we're without Agger next game, and considering our fixtures.

Or we could be six games in and on 15 points, i doubt it like, but it's a possibility.

[L666KOP]

Or we could be six games in and on 15 points, i doubt it like, but it's a possibility.

I'll have a sneaky wager that we're nearer 0 than 15 mate.

I hope I'm really way off the mark, but what do you reckon is most likely?

The one good thing that should have come from yesterday is that it gives Brendan chance to iron out the issues that relate to us 'giving up'

Yesterdays performance at the hands of City, Utd etc could well have resulted in an embarrassing scoreline.

[redhot-robbie]

This is the sort of sentence that would be impressive if you'd posted it on the eve of the match. I might have been intrigued enough to read on in that instance. As it is I didn't read on. Maybe you come up with some blinding and frightening insight about Rodgers's fundamental ineptitude, in which case I apologise, but I suspect it's just a slightly more refined form of wailing after an unexpected defeat. You're sad and it's all Rodgers's fault.

I'm sad too. I'd mentally scratched in 3 points for this one, in readiness for the more uncertain ties to come. Mistake! I was also, for once, really looking forward to the match. I mean really.  Of course I always do, but anticipation is normally mixed with a degree of trepidation. What will happen when Kuyt gets the ball? How slow will Carragher be this week? Will Carroll show his claws or will he stay curled up on the sofa? And above all, will we start hoofing when things don't go our way? But yesterday I settled in to watch a command performance. I expected we'd have the ball and that eventually gaps would open in the opposition's lines. I expected to be delighted by Liverpool and to be able to breathe normally watching them - as I used to do in the 80s.

It looked great for 44 minutes. The Throstles (one for the oldies there) had a storming, chaotic first 3 minutes but for the next 41 we looked slick, fit, patient and skillful. We also looked in command. West Brom, the home team, started to surrender two-thirds of the pitch. The ball moved really quickly when we had it. No one hoofed.

Not that we were firing on all cylinders. Lucas did some good things but he was reminded that being fit to face a piece of shit like Gomel is not the same as being genuinely Premier League fit. Shane Long nicked it off him at one point and almost scored, reminding our lad that the best attackers in England don't believe in such a thing as a 'lost cause' and will chase anything and use muscle to get it. That was a good reminder. He needs to use muscle to defend it.

Kelly also looked out of sorts at right back. There was one dreadful Carragher-esque miscue when under no pressure, although that was untypical of the lad. What is slightly more concerning for him is that he lacks the foot-skills (as opposed to raw pace) to beat an opponent - which is precisely what the Rodgers system demands of an advanced full back like himself. On reflection it would have been better to have had Johnson on the right and the very promising Jack Robbo on the left.

I see Suarez has come in for some stick for not burying that header at the end of the first half. He did on the commentary too where it went down as 'a regulation chance' or some such bollocks.  My reaction to that type of comment is that either 1. You have never played football and have no sense of what is possible in the air 2. You have played football but are clearly deluded about your own aerial skills.  Suarez could never have scored that a goal from that cross. The ball was simply too high. In fact he did remarkably well to get his forehead on it at all. A less technical player would have seen the ball skim off his crown. But it was always going to be too much to ask for him to head the ball down. Even Carroll, with his extra height, would have struggled. 

I won't go into the second half except to say that it was hot, we were playing with one less player than them (two less if you count old man Carragher), and the ref had a very poor game.

Of the new boys Joe Allen was excellent. Borini looked thrown out of joint by the physicality of the Premier League, but he'll come good I'm sure.

The most worrying aspect, Kelly apart, was Gerrard. He looked sadly lacking in athleticism again and you wonder if old father time is catching up to him quicker than he thinks. He was also noticeably out of sync with the rest of the team in the first half. Six or seven probing passes and the ball comes to Gerrard high up the pitch. What's needed is a boring little pass backwards to Lucas or Allen so that they can quickly get the machine moving in another direction while retaining the ball. Not for Stevie. It's as if his patience breaks. "Six or seven passes is enough", he seems to say. "If we haven't created a chance by then I'm gonna try something else". And a cross is whipped into a packed penalty box.

It's cleared of course. And the opposition get their breath back. And their shape.

We might need a proper number 10.

Nail on head.  Quality post and sums it up for me. 

Looked in control until sending off and then after that you can't really say much because you are talking about 10 v 11 and everything is then magnified.

I'll look at the table in more detail after 6-8 games when the early season shock results die down. 

Those who think a new style of play will happen over night really do need to have a think, some players have habbitual ways of playing and need to learn what to do almost all over again. 

[gamble]

Gerrard is ripe for moving upfront Roy, the system we play places more emphasis on intelligence and movement rather than outright pace.
I wrote in another thread mate, I think he's too old now to be chasing shadows as part of a high energy pressing midfield.

I'm seeing signs from the last 12 months or so that we can't physically compete against other teams. We are outpaced, outmuscled, slow on the turn. I can't be the only one who is seeing this?

[Fat Scouser]

For what it's worth, my two cents...
I thought we were doing fine. We were knocking the ball about, and moving into space. The old pass and move seemed to be back, and we were pressing the ball when we didn't have it. I could only see one outcome, then we get hit with a wonder goal. I suppose, someone should have got closer to Gera and made it difficult, but these things happen. There's no real way of stopping something like that, and, up to that point, a miracle was the only way they were getting ahead.

Then bingo bango we are two down due to some attrocious decisions. It's alright going on about the team lacking character. I wouldn't argue that that has been a problem. I don't think it was yesterday, though.

Think about it... Agger gets red carded for no more than leaning on the fella. We lose our rudder, but survive the pen. Hope comes back, and is torn away with a slap in the face with a wet kipper of a decision. Of course heads were going to drop, but that wasn't the problem, not in my eyes anyway.

Far as I'm concerned the rick we made was, trying to carry on regardless when Agger was sent off. That's fine in a knock game or cup final with ten minutes to go, but in our circumstances we needed to slow things down, keep the ball, knock it about a bit and let things settle. We didn't. We went chasing the game. And even when we went two down, we done exactly the same. I suppose that was a bit more excusable as we had to chase the game then, but it was a sign of real naivety at 1 nil and we may well have not went 2 down if we'd just gave ourselves a bit of a breathing space.

Obvioulsy, at 2 down we had to chase it, and it was simple for them to sit back and wallop us on the break. The good news about that is, it's easily ironed out. And I have faith in Rogers being able to iron out most technical gaffs. The worrying goal was the third. The team just turned off when the ball was in our box, allowing the little dink to an unmarked opponent on the back stick. That's very worrying, but again, I think Rogers can fix that.

The real problem is getting the owners to realise Brendan needs some more quality in the squad and the fan base to accept that it's going to take him a bit of time. The owners, well, I think they've made it pretty plain... off load some players, bring some dough in, cut the wage bill, we might just part with a few quid. The fans... well, I think the majority understand that it's going to take some time and money. So, they'll back the lad. But, sadly, it's the empty vessel minority that make the most noise.

Anybody want to start taking odds on the first call for his head?

[RooiBefok]

Average Player Positions : West Brom (Away)

[Mr_Shane]

At least I have a hunch the manager knows whats wrong. He himself just said "we have to score more goals". He also said that we played according to the way we wanted to play in the first half and wanted us to play the same in the second half. He didnt say anything about the actual second half display though, but I wouldn't expect him to in public.

[L666KOP]

I'm seeing signs from the last 12 months or so that we can't physically compete against other teams. We are outpaced, outmuscled, slow on the turn. I can't be the only one who is seeing this?

Nope, classic example was Carra bouncing of Lukaku yesterday, when it happened it looked so ridiculous I honestly giggled.


But the only way to avoid the one on one situations where we can be 2nd best 'physically' is to move the ball quicker.
Barcalona are full of little uns, it doesn't seem to hamper them.

[walshys_mullet]

a few concerns arising from this game, or indeed resurfacing after this game

Referees - Phil Dowd has not been the worst for us down the years - I have credited him with a relatively independent mind to the extent he's sent Vidic off against us as least once in my memory when other refs would have cowered under the psychological thrawl that Whiskey Nose has over most of them.

But this display was shocking and indicates we are still reaping the whirlwind of our tete-a-tete with the FA last season over Negrito-gate. Every foul we committed practically resulted in a yellow whilst Olssen and to a lesser extent Ridgewell were free to elbow/shoulder us with impunity. Lucas got a yellow at one stage and I was just about to tweet what a fucking biased wanker Dowd was but before I could he had awarded a pen against Agger and sent him off. We need to sort this. Firstly the captain needs to be in their faces and defend the players properly - he's the only one in the team with the clout to do it and have some sway with the refs. Secondly we need some proper PR making this point - not the sour grapes type grumbling that Kenny engaged in last year, but some astute analysis properly positioned in the press from some of our friends (we have enough of them still) in the media. @JenChang needs to get working on this as we are suffering and will continue to suffer - Suarez most of all.

Our public image is at an all-time low to the extent that even commentators who accept that Agger's push was outside the box are still reluctant to call bullshit on decisions against us - see below.

The Decisions - the decisions themselves were pretty poor. Leaving aside the red cards the first penalty was a foul (a pretty soft one mind) but it was outside the box. England's Michael Owen and the Goals on Sunday team this morning all pretty much agreed on this but the verdict was still - 'was it a penalty? hmm? 50/50' I suppose. Bollocks. Jesus Christ. If it's outside the box it's not a penalty lads. Give us a motherfucking break. The second I can sort of understand but equally I can make the case that Long fouled Skrtel but kicking into his swinging foot. If Long had scored the first penalty a few minutes earlier do you really think that Dowd would've awarded the second? As for the Red Card if he gives a penalty then yes he sends him off but if he realises that it's a soft shove outside the box does he still do so? Probably but it's not so clear-cut.

The Team Mentality - so how long has this been going on for now? That sinking feeling I had yesterday seemed to be the same sinking feeling that I had as far back as the disastrous European group we were in with Lyon in Rafa's last year. Any sort of goal against us and it seemed to break the mentality and you could sort of predict what was coming. And where exactly is the problem? Is it Suarez the Uruguayan street-fighter who would nutmeg his granny for a win? Or Lucas, our King, our Constant, our Solidity in the middle of the park? Is it our Captain Fantastic, England's Captain and greatest player of his generation? Is it Agger and Skrtel our defensive rocks upon which we hope the solid foundations for our future will be built? Where is this mental instability coming from and how do we sort it out?

Personally I think it needs a light at the end of the tunnel for these players. It needs a sign from the owners that the days of Hicks and Gillette are over and this is not a club aspiring to mid-table mediocrity at which they will dwindle away their prime playing days or perhaps get picked up by a 'big club'. In short it needs a marquee signing. It needs a signing that lifts the club and inspires confidence - you know in the way that Andy Carroll's signing should have done.

Any whilst we're at it doesn't Carroll have a bit more about him in terms of fight these days than Downing when in the front line and shouldn't he have come on earlier yesterday, if only to spark a bit of fight into use.

The Manager's Mentality - He talks a good game does Rodgers. He came out with a great quote during the summer which was in answer to a rather unpolitic question about Kenny's reign and one suspected that he was treading lightly over the failures of last season but it remains a pretty good analogy of the situation that a manager finds himself in. It was something along the lines of the manager's job being akin to putting an aircraft into flight but at the same time having it in the hanger in a continual state of redevelopment at the same time.

Brendan might do well to remember that quote and remember that things can't be changed too quickly and be ready to show a bit of flexibilty at times, i.e. the plane might not be ready to cruise at his required speed and height just now and occasionally it might be appropriate to lower the sights and adapt your flight plan to the plane you currently have. His insistence on sticking to his guns yesterday, or trying to, when Plan A was clearly not working might be admirable, gutsy etc. or it might be short-sighted and show a lack of tactical flexibility and a failure to assess the reality of where he actually is with his team. If Plan A isn't working and you think that your team might actually be better served (and better suited) with a Plan B that they'd been playing for the past year why not give it a go. Certainly the decision to bring on Joe Cole, Joe Bloody Cole, to try and turn things around instead of Carroll smacked to me of sheer bloody-mindedness and I wondered if maybe we don't actually have a complete megalomaniac on our hands.

That's a top top post.

And you know what it all comes back whether you like it or not to the owners. They can set the wheels in motion, they can change the clubs impetus. I just don't think they want too.

[Zeb]

But the only way to avoid the one on one situations where we can be 2nd best 'physically' is to move the ball quicker.
Barcalona are full of little uns, it doesn't seem to hamper them.

It's also the point about pressing too when the ball is lost, isn't it?

Know it's fairly obvious, but Laudrup's interview in the guardian covered the fundamental point:

"But every manager playing against Barcelona knows what they have to do: very compact, no space in between the lines, when you get the ball you need to keep it for three or four passes and somebody has to make a run. And on the left, when [Dani] Alves is away, you can go behind [Gerard] Piqué, who is not so fast."

Laudrup pauses before breaking into laughter. "Everybody knows that but no one succeeds with it. How come? Because you never reach the third or fourth pass before a [Barcelona] player is coming. And then they already have the ball again. What does that mean? It means you have to work a lot without the ball."

[Fat Scouser]

Nope, classic example was Carra bouncing of Lukaku yesterday, when it happened it looked so ridiculous I honestly giggled.

Bit unfair mate. The big lad was off and running. Carra tried to throw himself across him. He was bound to come off second best. Granted, Carra is getting on a bit now and that is bound to happen as the clock catches up. But if there's been very few better than Carra for stopping people dead in there tracks over the last few years. Sadly, Steven will start suffering the same way soon. I played until I was 40. I stopped because fellas I would have tonked years ago, just brushed me aside. Law of the jungle. The young bucks take over. But I don't think our younger lads are weaker than other teams.

[Black Bull Nova]

As the notorious Plan A/Plan B stuff has been mentioned I'd just like to raise this perspective.

If, as has been said, the solution to Plan A not working is improve plan A then how does that apply in game time. I am assuming you start with your best team therefore any changes you make will be, by definition, replacing players with inferior versions (a la Ngog on for Torres as we were so familiar with). Looking back at the Cup Final is there is single player (Carroll excepted) that would have come on and fundamentally changed the success of the way we were playing, I don't think so. I can see why you would wish to improve the way you undertake the approach towards the style of play between games but if you are going to change the course of the game during play I think it needs something more, dare I say it a shot in the arm. Whether this is someone like Sterling or just a boost of testosterone a la the former Steven Gerrard or the occasionally beefy Andy Carroll I don't know.

I do think however I am a bit tired of seeing a team playing in a rut who are confirmed in that rut by the substitutions that are made, Craig Johnson was an impact player, they do exist, Bellamy could do the job. We need an in game Plan B which is enacted with sufficient time for impact and it needs to get fire in the team and it needs to be different.