Topic: If Liverpool fucked off the Premier league, how would you feel?

[PeterTheRed ...]

Miles wide of the mark, its the tourists who will fuck off and it'll be the locals and English supporters who go the game. There's fellas been going decades at all clubs, they go home and away regardless of what they win, its in their blood. Newcastle have had average attendences of over 51,000 for years before the Saudis bought them, we've had obver 20,000 on our ST waiting list for over 20 years, I went on the list in 2003 and am still 3,000 from the front.

You really have no clue about Liverpool supporters.

Liverpool supporters want for their club to compete for the top honors. With the Premier League and the Champions League out of reach permanently, the interest for the very expensive tickets will decrease. Of course, there always will be a core of supporters who will be going to every home and away game, but it won't be the same. One of these days, you will accept that the Premier League is fucked to it's core. When that day comes, you will think twice before giving your hard earned money so you can see Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia or Qatar winning yet another English league title ...

[rob1966]

Liverpool supporters want for their club to compete for the top honors. With the Premier League and the Champions League out of reach permanently, the interest for the very expensive tickets will decrease. Of course, there always will be a core of supporters who will be going to every home and away game, but it won't be the same. One of these days, you will accept that the Premier League is fucked to it's core. When that day comes, you will think twice before giving your hard earned money so you can see Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia or Qatar winning yet another English league title ...

You just do not get what it is to support this club due to birthplace, not because you saw them winning things on the telly

[DelTrotter]

An armchair speaking for all match going fans 

[Terry de Niro]

An armchair speaking for all match going fans 

He's even fucked off his armchair because of the sportswashers.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Look, my local club Vardar Skopje was in the Second Division this season, and I still watched all the home games and most of the aways. Than again, I have also watched LFC on more than 30 occasions during my lifetime, mostly in Central, Southern and South-East Europe, and I will continue to do so. Of course, I am not renewing my cable subscription for the Premier League for next season, since I am no longer giving a single cent to those corrupt bastards ...

[Dench57]

you do realise that the state-owned clubs would be in the ESL too

[PeterTheRed ...]

you do realise that the state-owned clubs would be in the ESL too

According to the second ESL project that is being discussed with over 80 European clubs, they won't be ...

[tubby]

According to the second ESL project that is being discussed with over 80 European clubs, they won't be ...

Is that including the original sports washers, Real?

[PeterTheRed ...]

Is that including the original sports washers, Real?

Unfortunately, they will be part of it ...

[ianburns252]

It continually baffles me who you think you're chatting with on here.

Liverpool are a European club, our fanbase cherish and value the concept of continental competition, and we have added to it immeasurably over the last 50 years or more. We aren't John Bull type little Englanders clinging on to the idea that English football is the be all and end all at the expense of anyone else, and we never have been.

Just because some of us think your utopian ESL idea is awful doesn't mean we want nothing but domestic football. We want Liverpool to be the cream of the crop both domestically and internationally, because both matter. Domestic football is where the traditions exist, where our old rivals and tribal opponents exist, and the continent is where our history has taken us. Both matter.

But to you one doesn't matter because you don't value the local over the continental, it's all about some grand project that suits your version of football. It's fine, your opinions are as valid and as stupid as mine or anyone elses, but you do seem to miss something quite often.

Your lack of understanding as to why some of us care about what Everton do was another clue in this. Liverpool are a club with local and traditional rivals, we aren't a project to stick your pan European ideas to and expect everyone to be as excited as you about it.

I don't disagree with your points on why domestic football is as important as you say - in fact I relish many of them - but we (being the fanbase as a wider entity) do bemoan many of those aspects also, or more accurately what they bring (see the hate chanting, general stupidity of other clubs fans, the banter bullshit spouted by Sky and on Twitter and how it riles things up).

We also tend to champion European refereeing, the fan cultures abroad, and the styles of play

It is a set of very fine margins between the positives and negatives of both - in my opinion - and I can see why people (both local and from afar) would want to escape the bullshit of the Prem and embrace what is seen as a better footballing environment in European circles (but also acknowledging that UEFA themselves are corrupt) and look for something that tries to square all of it.

[Macc77]

I don't disagree with your points on why domestic football is as important as you say - in fact I relish many of them - but we (being the fanbase as a wider entity) do bemoan many of those aspects also, or more accurately what they bring (see the hate chanting, general stupidity of other clubs fans, the banter bullshit spouted by Sky and on Twitter and how it riles things up).

We also tend to champion European refereeing, the fan cultures abroad, and the styles of play

It is a set of very fine margins between the positives and negatives of both - in my opinion - and I can see why people (both local and from afar) would want to escape the bullshit of the Prem and embrace what is seen as a better footballing environment in European circles (but also acknowledging that UEFA themselves are corrupt) and look for something that tries to square all of it.

All entirely fair enough. I'm no fan of the PL model and I barely recognise some aspects of the game compared to the one I grew up with. I also enjoy that when we play non English sides we actually appear to be respected for our history instead of being berated with poverty and tragedy chanting, which grinds me down as much as anyone else. So yes, if we could start all over I very much doubt we'd want to end up here.

My issue isn't with the idea of a European league that replaces European competitions,  it's a European League that becomes THE league. As much as sticking dots on maps and talking about fairness sounds romantic and exciting, familiarity will breed the same contempt IMO.

Playing Barcelona or Juventus should be the exception, the icing on the cake, not the norm. Give it 5 years and nothing will be special about it anymore, and playing Anderlecht or Legia Warsaw won't feel special to begin with,  let alone down the line. We'd be replacing the norm with the exception, and then making the exception the new norm, and once that happens that's all we'll have.

Others have made the very relevant point about match going fans. For some, going to away games is a way of life, something that binds them.to the club and to a set of mates every fortnight, it's not a day out or an 'experience', and taking that away from many by telling them that they have to do 15 Euro aways every season to continue their way of life would ruin the link completely.

It's an idea of those who have no perception of what any of that means. And whilst I'm all in favour of complete change domestically and internationally, I don't want us to lose one just for the sake of the other, especially when the idea being discussed is so bloody awful.

[Ghost Town]

I don't disagree with your points on why domestic football is as important as you say - in fact I relish many of them - but we (being the fanbase as a wider entity) do bemoan many of those aspects also, or more accurately what they bring (see the hate chanting, general stupidity of other clubs fans, the banter bullshit spouted by Sky and on Twitter and how it riles things up).

We also tend to champion European refereeing, the fan cultures abroad, and the styles of play

It is a set of very fine margins between the positives and negatives of both - in my opinion - and I can see why people (both local and from afar) would want to escape the bullshit of the Prem and embrace what is seen as a better footballing environment in European circles (but also acknowledging that UEFA themselves are corrupt) and look for something that tries to square all of it.

It's not fine margins at all, it's something completely new and will be hugely destructive. We're not just talking about an alternative CL here, we're talking about an alternative to the PL. The bread and butter.

If you want to leave the PL, fine, start up a new league in England, or the UK. Set the paramaeters (e.g no state owned clubs) and invite others to join you. If two or three of the biggest clubs are in favour the FA will eventully come round to it.

it's like people are blinded by their dislike for the current PL and PGMOL set and think "Anything else is better". Well that's not true.

Unless you want Liverpool the club to be moved lock, stock and barrel to LA or Qatar or China or something in a few years time, because that's what will happen if the link between the club and it's commuity is severed.

[ianburns252]

All entirely fair enough. I'm no fan of the PL model and I barely recognise some aspects of the game compared to the one I grew up with. I also enjoy that when we play non English sides we actually appear to be respected for our history instead of being berated with poverty and tragedy chanting, which grinds me down as much as anyone else. So yes, if we could start all over I very much doubt we'd want to end up here.

My issue isn't with the idea of a European league that replaces European competitions,  it's a European League that becomes THE league. As much as sticking dots on maps and talking about fairness sounds romantic and exciting, familiarity will breed the same contempt IMO.

Playing Barcelona or Juventus should be the exception, the icing on the cake, not the norm. Give it 5 years and nothing will be special about it anymore, and playing Anderlecht or Legia Warsaw won't feel special to begin with,  let alone down the line. We'd be replacing the norm with the exception, and then making the exception the new norm, and once that happens that's all we'll have.

Others have made the very relevant point about match going fans. For some, going to away games is a way of life, something that binds them.to the club and to a set of mates every fortnight, it's not a day out or an 'experience', and taking that away from many by telling them that they have to do 15 Euro aways every season to continue their way of life would ruin the link completely.

It's an idea of those who have no perception of what any of that means. And whilst I'm all in favour of complete change domestically and internationally, I don't want us to lose one just for the sake of the other, especially when the idea being discussed is so bloody awful.

I can't disagree with any of that mate - I like Peter's version that he supports as a concept in the same way I enjoy going on FM12 and tweaking the settings to get prime Messi, Higuain, Modric and that in my Liverpool squad. It is, as you say, romantic and fun and exciting to see what could be with those conditions but it isn't "real" and the faults such as the struggle with travel for aways comes to the fore.

Looking at the away travel, it is double the maximum travel we would do in the CL going from Group to Final which is obviously a hell of an extra expense - although travel round the UK is far from cheap (costs the better part of £120 when I come back home for the game from London) but you might see the cost of travel to those away matches drop a bit at least with them being league fixtures rather than cup ones and so losing some of the allure.

[ianburns252]

It's not fine margins at all, it's something completely new and will be hugely destructive. We're not just talking about an alternative CL here, we're talking about an alternative to the PL. The bread and butter.

If you want to leave the PL, fine, start up a new league in England, or the UK. Set the paramaeters (e.g no state owned clubs) and invite others to join you. If two or three of the biggest clubs are in favour the FA will eventully come round to it.

it's like people are blinded by their dislike for the current PL and PGMOL set and think "Anything else is better". Well that's not true.

Unless you want Liverpool the club to be moved lock, stock and barrel to LA or Qatar or China or something in a few years time, because that's what will happen if the link between the club and it's commuity is severed.

When I said fine margins I mean the line between the things the drive people up the wall about the PL going from what make it to what break it (so the tribalism being a key part of it and it not being the same without it but that it takes very little for that to boil over into the hate chanting that ruins football) - apologies if I wasn't clear with it

[rob1966]

It's not fine margins at all, it's something completely new and will be hugely destructive. We're not just talking about an alternative CL here, we're talking about an alternative to the PL. The bread and butter.

If you want to leave the PL, fine, start up a new league in England, or the UK. Set the paramaeters (e.g no state owned clubs) and invite others to join you. If two or three of the biggest clubs are in favour the FA will eventully come round to it.

it's like people are blinded by their dislike for the current PL and PGMOL set and think "Anything else is better". Well that's not true.

Unless you want Liverpool the club to be moved lock, stock and barrel to LA or Qatar or China or something in a few years time, because that's what will happen if the link between the club and it's commuity is severed.

I asked a mate who still watches NFL where the Raiders are these days, last I heard I thought they'd gone back to Oakland, turns out they're in Vegas now. Thats is the kids of shit we do not want to risk

As for a new league, rename the Championship Divison 1 and join that, leave the washers to the PL

[Ghost Town]

Looking at the away travel, it is double the maximum travel we would do in the CL going from Group to Final which is obviously a hell of an extra expense - although travel round the UK is far from cheap (costs the better part of £120 when I come back home for the game from London) but you might see the cost of travel to those away matches drop a bit at least with them being league fixtures rather than cup ones and so losing some of the allure.

It won't just be the cost, it'll be the time as well. Most regulars can manage to find the time for 3 or 4 European aways a season. If we go far in the knockouts or get to a final they might be able to cobble some more time off work to attend, usually based on pleading and promises and guarantees of working the accrued time off in suboptimal ways (been there!).

But, for the sake of argument, 19 league aways across the length and breadth of Peter's map, plus presumably, European aways as well, because no one wants to ditch the European Cup do they? And domestic cups as well...

The ESL is an idea embraced by the very wealthy, armchair fans  and dillitantes who have no intention of ever going to any matches, just watching on TV. It's an extension of the mindset that wants all the best and most famous players and the highest transfer fees, the biggest scoops, the most publicity and highest social media engagement . More more, more, bigger, bigger, bigger and fuck the actual matchgoing fans

When I said fine margins I mean the line between the things the drive people up the wall about the PL going from what make it to what break it (so the tribalism being a key part of it and it not being the same without it but that it takes very little for that to boil over into the hate chanting that ruins football) - apologies if I wasn't clear with it

No, my apologies, I did misunderstand, yes.

My defence (as I mentioned in another thread) is that I'm suffering from fever and high temperature at the moment. Not even sure if I'm making sense or just gabbling.

[Ghost Town]

I asked a mate who still watches NFL where the Raiders are these days, last I heard I thought they'd gone back to Oakland, turns out they're in Vegas now. Thats is the kids of shit we do not want to risk

Indeed. You can just imagine some future owners saying why put up with LFC being stuck in this busy, landlocked, terraced backwater in some no-mark city (their view not mine!) in the NW of England when Dubai or KL or Shaghai would do with a shiny, big, famous club sited there. Lots of fans there as well!

As for a new league, rename the Championship Divison 1 and join that, leave the washers to the PL

Yes, a good point. How many who are saying 'ditch the PL' would be prepared to go downwards not upwards? Not join the Big Names of Europe for our league football but the lesser names of the Championship? If you're prepared to do so then that shows that your problem really is the PL and you would be willing to take a step down for a while (it'll soon become the top division in the country if we and Man U and Arsenal were there) in order to escape it.

If you're not prepared to then that suggetst that bigger, bigger, bling is what you're after.

[ianburns252]

It won't just be the cost, it'll be the time as well. Most regulars can manage to find the time for 3 or 4 European aways a season. If we go far in the knockouts or get to a final they might be able to cobble some more time off work to attend, usually based on pleading and promises and guarantees of working the accrued time off in suboptimal ways (been there!).

But, for the sake of argument, 19 league aways across the length and breadth of Peter's map, plus presumably, European aways as well, because no one wants to ditch the European Cup do they? And domestic cups as well...

The ESL is an idea embraced by the very wealthy, armchair fans  and dillitantes who have no intention of ever going to any matches, just watching on TV. It's an extension of the mindset that wants all the best and most famous players and the highest transfer fees, the biggest scoops, the most publicity and highest social media engagement . More more, more, bigger, bigger, bigger and fuck the actual matchgoing fans
No, my apologies, I did misunderstand, yes.

My defence (as I mentioned in another thread) is that I'm suffering from fever and high temperature at the moment. Not even sure if I'm making sense or just gabbling.

Absolutely no harm no foul mate - not as if you came in blazing calling me a prick or owt over it, just a misreading so no drama at all.

Every point you and Macc raise are in line with where my view ultimately sits. I do think though that there will be another push for it so I'm trying to think of the ways to make it work if we have to but very much struggling to justify what would be involved.

[PeterTheRed ...]

I asked a mate who still watches NFL where the Raiders are these days, last I heard I thought they'd gone back to Oakland, turns out they're in Vegas now. Thats is the kids of shit we do not want to risk

As for a new league, rename the Championship Divison 1 and join that, leave the washers to the PL

How many clubs have actually changed cities in the NFL in recent years? It is actually the opposite, the cities, the counties and even the states are investing money in new state-of-the-art stadiums, in order to keep the NFL clubs where they are. NFL is an undisputed success, and if the ESL is anything alike, no club will even think about being owned by a state, in order to be successful.

The bottom line is, you can't stop progress. The Premier League has taken the wrong turn when they allowed the oil money in, and in the past 20 years very few Premier League titles have been won on merit. The PL is seriously damaged, I'd say beyond repair.

With or without the English clubs, the ESL will happen. No one had a problem playing the first 3 World Cups without England, and it will be the same with the ESL. The top English clubs like LFC, Man Utd, and Arsenal will have one last chance to join the ESL, and if they don't do it, they will be left behind.

No matter how well LFC, Man Utd and Arsenal are run, they will never be able to match the spending power of the state owned clubs in the PL, so they will be also rans. At the same time, the top European clubs in the ESL, with their massive ESL revenues, will come along and cherry pick all of their best players ...

[Lone Star Red]

How many clubs have actually changed cities in the NFL in recent years? It is actually the opposite, the cities, the counties and even the states are investing money in new state-of-the-art stadiums, in order to keep the NFL clubs where they are. NFL is an undisputed success, and if the ESL is anything alike, no club will even think about being owned by a state, in order to be successful.

The bottom line is, you can't stop progress. The Premier League has taken the wrong turn when they allowed the oil money in, and in the past 20 years very few Premier League titles have been won on merit. The PL is seriously damaged, I'd say beyond repair.

With or without the English clubs, the ESL will happen. No one had a problem playing the first 3 World Cups without England, and it will be the same with the ESL. The top English clubs like LFC, Man Utd, and Arsenal will have one last chance to join the ESL, and if they don't do it, they will be left behind.

No matter how well LFC, Man Utd and Arsenal are run, they will never be able to match the spending power of the state owned clubs in the PL, so they will be also rans. At the same time, the top European clubs in the ESL, with their massive ESL revenues, will come along and cherry pick all of their best players ...

From a financial standpoint, sure.

There's also an element of massive over commercialization and hollowness that is impossible to ignore and hard to digest for many, myself included.

[Lone Star Red]

All entirely fair enough. I'm no fan of the PL model and I barely recognise some aspects of the game compared to the one I grew up with. I also enjoy that when we play non English sides we actually appear to be respected for our history instead of being berated with poverty and tragedy chanting, which grinds me down as much as anyone else. So yes, if we could start all over I very much doubt we'd want to end up here.

My issue isn't with the idea of a European league that replaces European competitions,  it's a European League that becomes THE league. As much as sticking dots on maps and talking about fairness sounds romantic and exciting, familiarity will breed the same contempt IMO.

Playing Barcelona or Juventus should be the exception, the icing on the cake, not the norm. Give it 5 years and nothing will be special about it anymore, and playing Anderlecht or Legia Warsaw won't feel special to begin with,  let alone down the line. We'd be replacing the norm with the exception, and then making the exception the new norm, and once that happens that's all we'll have.

Others have made the very relevant point about match going fans. For some, going to away games is a way of life, something that binds them.to the club and to a set of mates every fortnight, it's not a day out or an 'experience', and taking that away from many by telling them that they have to do 15 Euro aways every season to continue their way of life would ruin the link completely.

It's an idea of those who have no perception of what any of that means. And whilst I'm all in favour of complete change domestically and internationally, I don't want us to lose one just for the sake of the other, especially when the idea being discussed is so bloody awful.

Couldn't agree more.

The grass isn't always greener.

[Jookie]

The solution isn’t a breakaway league though I can see some benefits in that.

The solution is fairer distribution of funds and proper financial controls across domestic and European football.

This will decrease the advantage state owned clubs have over the likes of ourselves. Equally it should also close the financial gap between the likes of Liverpool and United and the likes of Villa and Everton.

The way football has gone over the last 20 years has felt like an arms race. A mission to accumulate as many funds as possible to acquire the best players and paid them huge amounts to stay at your club. That feeds into fan behaviour too and the huge emphasis fans put on recruitment over coaching.

We’ve been part of that arms race but it’s one where we are in danger of being left behind due to the effect and magnification of the issue through state owned clubs. We shouldn’t forget than any financial reforms would be best if they closed the financial advantage between 1st and 20th and not just 1st and 5th.

Issues with refereeing and opposition fans is always likely to be there. As much as some won’t believe it fans f most clubs think a combination of refs, media and other fans are against them.

[PeterTheRed ...]

From a financial standpoint, sure.

There's also an element of massive over commercialization and hollowness that is impossible to ignore and hard to digest for many, myself included.

It is much harder to digest Man City and Newcastle finishing 1st/2nd in the PL every season, and only ocassionally being beaten to a CL final spot by PSG ...

[Lone Star Red]

A lot of this comes down to Financial Fair Play and more specifically, the failure to actually adhere to it and implement it well from the footballing authorities. Like much of the footballing world, failure and lack of accountability seems ingrained in these people and the sport. Amazing how far behind the times the sport is in many ways.

As for the rereferring stuff, every single forum I've perused for other PL clubs have their Andy's, who do nothing but blame the refs and accuse them of being bent or corrupt or hating their club. Everyone feels aggrieved, we're not special in any sort of way. A lot of the refereeing in this country in the PL is shite, but it would go a long way if the football authorities actually showed some transparency and owned where and when they fall short. It's not groundbreaking stuff and should be pretty easy to implement but again, behind the times and all that.

[ianburns252]

It is much harder to digest Man City and Newcastle finishing 1st/2nd in the PL every season, and only ocassionally being beaten to a CL final spot by PSG ...

There is a concern over where the billions will come from to make a new league work and make it financially enticing for the clubs to join rather than stay where they are - anyone no expecting UAE, Saudi, Russia, China based money to be funding/sponsoring it (who else has it?)

It may (and emphasis on may) just end up being sportswashing in a different manner

[PeterTheRed ...]

There is a concern over where the billions will come from to make a new league work and make it financially enticing for the clubs to join rather than stay where they are - anyone no expecting UAE, Saudi, Russia, China based money to be funding/sponsoring it (who else has it?)

It may (and emphasis on may) just end up being sportswashing in a different manner

Lets not pretend that we don't know who's capital is behind the ESL project. We all know that it is an American project ...

[rafathegaffa83]

A lot of this comes down to Financial Fair Play and more specifically, the failure to actually adhere to it and implement it well from the footballing authorities.

This. If Financial Fair Play was properly enforced as it similar financial instruments are employed in other sports - salary caps, luxury taxes - a lot of these issues would be remedied. But it isn't, because the supposed gatekeepers of the game naively have allowed to let in parties that will simply flex their bottomless resources in the face of any challenge to their spending. This isn't the case everywhere. This season Serie A has punished Juventus for financial improprieties and ironically UEFA will more likely go after Juventus than Man City or PSG.

The PL has marketed itself on its competitiveness, but if that begins to erode, it will impact the viability of the league. Once Ronaldo and Messi exited La Liga, the Spanish league lost a lot of its commercial lustre. In the PL, the clubs are mainly the attraction to a global audience, but if the league becomes a two-horse league dominated by Newcastle and Man City, the league will eventually lose its appeal. No amount of marketing chic will compensate for that. I recently noticed on a trip to New York that PSG have a shop on 5th Avenue. When I looked through the window, I noticed it was empty. Why? Probably because nobody gives a shit about PSG outside of France despite having Lionel Messi on their books.

Basically, football has few chances left to be a competitive sport. A lot of changes since the 90s - Bosman ruling, advent of satellite television, the elimination on restrictions on foreign player quotas - have strengthened the PL in particular. But it doesn't mean the sport itself is immune if casual fans and dedicated supporters begin to lose interest if the concentration of those likely to win is diluted even further to a few clubs backed directly or indirectly by states. The NBA 'superteam' route is not something that would benefit football (arguably it hurt the NBA too).

[ianburns252]

Lets not pretend that we don't know who's capital is behind the ESL project. We all know that it is an American project ...

Is it not just driven by US owners rather than the funding coming from the US?

[PeterTheRed ...]

Is it not just driven by US owners rather than the funding coming from the US?

Yeah, because the US owners, who have made their fortune in the US finance sector, would obviously look for funding from Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia and Qatar ...

[decosabute]

Out of interest on this integrity piece.  If man utd had had the brains to employ Guardiola years ago and actually spent money well would everyone he alright with that ?

After all they earn their money though success in the pitch .....

I'm guessing the moaning would be the same

I do agree football is broken though, and the only way I see it being fixed is with European wide salary cap that would stop the big teams having massive squads of internationals, can't see it happening anytime soon though.

Bolded bit isn't true, sorry.

I don't know if you remember, but United had TWO DECADES in the not too distant past where they were winning everything in sight. And while we obviously didn't like that period, no one was kicking off in the same way as now.

We hated them as rivals, begrudged them their success, and hated Ferguson cos he could be a prick, but they EARNED their money and the glory that came with it and operated within the rules. Ultimately, what they did was fair. City have earned nothing themselves and blatantly cheat the now-established rules. It's a complete non-starter of a comparison.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Bolded bit isn't true, sorry.

I don't know if you remember, but United had TWO DECADES in the not too distant past where they were winning everything in sight. And while we obviously didn't like that period, no one was kicking off in the same way as now.

We hated them as rivals, begrudged them their success, and hated Ferguson cos he could be a prick, but they EARNED their money and the glory that came with it and operated within the rules. Ultimately, what they did was fair. City have earned nothing themselves and blatantly cheat the now-established rules. It's a complete non-starter of a comparison.

Exactly. I think most people will only understand it if Qatar fail to buy Man Utd, and buy Everton instead. Only in that case most of our fans would understand why the Premier League is broken beyond repair ...

[Billy The Kid]

Advocating for a breakaway ESL because the PL is fucked would be like Holly Willoughby abandoning Phil Schofield for Fred West   

[PeterTheRed ...]

Yes, I am advocating for the league version of the old European Cup, instead of the English league dominated by Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia and Qatar ...

[Macc77]

NFL is an undisputed success, and if the ESL is anything alike, no club will even think about being owned by a state

By what metric is the NFL an undisputed success? Attendances? TV deals? Popularity? If so, by your rules the PL is a bigger success. NBC's renewed deal to show the PL in the US has cost them $2.7bn, but nobody is paying anywhere near that money outside of the US for the NFL rights.

Attendances are good, but so they should be when teams only play 8 or 9 home games a year. But ticket prices are eye watering compared to England, and as proven with the £77 fiasco, American owners with a majority stake in the game here would hike prices in a heartbeat.

And popularity. Well, biggest sport in the US for sure, but where else is it the biggest sport? How many countries outside Mexico, UK and Germany are clamouring for the international games? Compare that to the demand for English clubs to play everywhere and anywhere each summer in meaningless games.

The NFL schedule is also an indicator of popularity. It is geared to the domestic audience (nothing wrong with that btw) with kick off times for the biggest games completely incompatible for anyone in Europe or Asia to watch live. This is a clear sign that they don't believe anywhere near enough people are watching overseas to make kick off times a little easier for them.

You also asked how many NFL teams had moved cities in recent years? Well, define recent I suppose. Last decade or so is recent for me, so 3 teams, and one has moved an hour outside of its home city as well. Two of those teams struggle to have even half of their stadium cheering for them in home games most weeks because the support for them is negligible given they played elsewhere for decades beforehand. Not something I'd wish to see replicated even once here.

So yes, the NFL is a success, in its own country and as a niche alternative in a few others. But it's miles behind European football in all the key global metrics that anyone would use to denote success or popularity.

[Walshy nMe®]

Dunno I'm sitting on the toilet so this is a mad idea but do something with transfer budgets.

The lower in the league you finish the more you're able to spend.  Set amounts nothing to do with % of earnings.

Finish 20th can spend up to £200m.
Finish 1st can spend up to £50m or something.

[Ghost Town]

Bolded bit isn't true, sorry.

I don't know if you remember, but United had TWO DECADES in the not too distant past where they were winning everything in sight. And while we obviously didn't like that period, no one was kicking off in the same way as now.

We hated them as rivals, begrudged them their success, and hated Ferguson cos he could be a prick, but they EARNED their money and the glory that came with it and operated within the rules. Ultimately, what they did was fair. City have earned nothing themselves and blatantly cheat the now-established rules. It's a complete non-starter of a comparison.

That was then, pre-social media, even pre RAWK and similar for most people. If it were today the moaning would definitely be the same or even worse. We've learned things, strings of invective we never had before. We'd find something and latch onto it, don't have any doubts about that.

And enough with all this revisionist "we might hate them but we respect them" bollocks. Or equally revisionist "they did things the right way". They were castigated even then for the Megastore mentality, out-earning everyone and wielding a financial clout that put them in a different league to other clubs and distorted the game. The first death cuts in the killing of the game as a sport.

If they were winning eveyrthing now they'd be getting both barrels and more besides. And deservedly so.

Their actions were just as distorting and destructuve as City's at the time, given the financial landscape

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It won't just be the cost, it'll be the time as well. Most regulars can manage to find the time for 3 or 4 European aways a season. If we go far in the knockouts or get to a final they might be able to cobble some more time off work to attend, usually based on pleading and promises and guarantees of working the accrued time off in suboptimal ways (been there!).

But, for the sake of argument, 19 league aways across the length and breadth of Peter's map, plus presumably, European aways as well, because no one wants to ditch the European Cup do they? And domestic cups as well...

The ESL is an idea embraced by the very wealthy, armchair fans  and dillitantes who have no intention of ever going to any matches, just watching on TV. It's an extension of the mindset that wants all the best and most famous players and the highest transfer fees, the biggest scoops, the most publicity and highest social media engagement . More more, more, bigger, bigger, bigger and fuck the actual matchgoing fans
No, my apologies, I did misunderstand, yes.

My defence (as I mentioned in another thread) is that I'm suffering from fever and high temperature at the moment. Not even sure if I'm making sense or just gabbling.

I've got a season ticket that I've had for over 30 years.

[decosabute]

Dunno I'm sitting on the toilet so this is a mad idea but do something with transfer budgets.

The lower in the league you finish the more you're able to spend.  Set amounts nothing to do with % of earnings.

Finish 20th can spend up to £200m.
Finish 1st can spend up to £50m or something.

Interesting idea, but then City just do the same sort of book-cooking that they've done with Haaland. He "only" cost them £45m according to the bullshit headlines, but we all know they ended up paying probably over £100m for him in fees after the family and agent got weighed in.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

By what metric is the NFL an undisputed success? Attendances? TV deals? Popularity? If so, by your rules the PL is a bigger success. NBC's renewed deal to show the PL in the US has cost them $2.7bn, but nobody is paying anywhere near that money outside of the US for the NFL rights.

Attendances are good, but so they should be when teams only play 8 or 9 home games a year. But ticket prices are eye watering compared to England, and as proven with the £77 fiasco, American owners with a majority stake in the game here would hike prices in a heartbeat.

And popularity. Well, biggest sport in the US for sure, but where else is it the biggest sport? How many countries outside Mexico, UK and Germany are clamouring for the international games? Compare that to the demand for English clubs to play everywhere and anywhere each summer in meaningless games.

The NFL schedule is also an indicator of popularity. It is geared to the domestic audience (nothing wrong with that btw) with kick off times for the biggest games completely incompatible for anyone in Europe or Asia to watch live. This is a clear sign that they don't believe anywhere near enough people are watching overseas to make kick off times a little easier for them.

You also asked how many NFL teams had moved cities in recent years? Well, define recent I suppose. Last decade or so is recent for me, so 3 teams, and one has moved an hour outside of its home city as well. Two of those teams struggle to have even half of their stadium cheering for them in home games most weeks because the support for them is negligible given they played elsewhere for decades beforehand. Not something I'd wish to see replicated even once here.

So yes, the NFL is a success, in its own country and as a niche alternative in a few others. But it's miles behind European football in all the key global metrics that anyone would use to denote success or popularity.

"American owners with a majority stake in the game here would hike prices in a heartbeat."

Well no. They wouldn't. The mindset of the average American and the Average English person are wildly different.

If the lowest ticket price at anfield was £20,000 a season then you'd probably have a few thousand that went - the ground would be pretty much empty and that would be the same across every team.

Americans are just 'the audience' they need 'entertainment' to be 'entertained' - this is a completely different mindset of English people regarding sport.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

That was then, pre-social media, even pre RAWK and similar for most people. If it were today the moaning would definitely be the same or even worse. We've learned things, strings of invective we never had before. We'd find something and latch onto it, don't have any doubts about that.

And enough with all this revisionist "we might hate them but we respect them" bollocks. Or equally revisionist "they did things the right way". They were castigated even then for the Megastore mentality, out-earning everyone and wielding a financial clout that put them in a different league to other clubs and distorted the game. The first death cuts in the killing of the game as a sport.

If they were winning eveyrthing now they'd be getting both barrels and more besides. And deservedly so.

Their actions were just as distorting and destructuve as City's at the time, given the financial landscape

Rubbish. I'm not a fan of them, but this is different. Although they sold their soul and although they turned into a business rather than a football club, they did what they did within the rules of the competition.

To say they didn't is all the shite. City have broken every rule there is domestically and internationally.