Topic: Fabinho

[Yorkykopite]

For what it's worth, I don't think Hendo's footballing legacy is at all damaged by the Saudi move.

A Liverpool captain with two years on his contracts decides he’d rather play in the Saudi League!!

That’s pretty damaging. Unless of course we now think Liverpool FC is just a piece of shit.

[Son of Spion]

A Liverpool captain with two years on his contracts decides he’d rather play in the Saudi League!!

That’s pretty damaging. Unless of course we now think Liverpool FC is just a piece of shit.

Nothing will take away Henderson's past achievements on the field of play for me. He captained us to every trophy there was available to win.

Basically retiring to a footballing wasteland whilst abandoning previously stated principles blows a massive hole in his credibility though, both professionally and as a man. In professional football terms, Henderson, Fabinho etc have retired and are just being paid as sportswashing figureheads whilst having a kickabout in the sun. If it was Saudi money on offer from them, they'd have given up playing for a global giant like Liverpool in order to play for Marine in Crosby. That might not damage previous legacy, but it certainly damages current and ongoing credibility. The step down in terms of professional football really is that big.

[Yorkykopite]

Turns out Don Revie was the trailblazer.

[dutchkop]

For what it's worth, I don't think Hendo's footballing legacy is at all damaged by the Saudi move. But his legacy as an advocate for women's rights and LGBTQ+ inclusivity/equality, however, is torn to shreds.

nah for me, he may as well have signed for MUnited in my book.

the same for all the rest.
Fowler, Gerrard, Firmino, Fabinho, Mane, = I have no respect for their choices. Why go to the Saudi's now. While they are one of the worst countries in the world for human rights. Sportwashing of the highest order.. sold their souls and reputations for the petrodollars.

the same way I did not want us to be sold to  Qatar, Abudhabi or Saudis and the same way I feel about City, Newcastle , PSG..

[hide5seek]

No, that's not my answer mate. I never made any inferences along those lines. You've obviously completely misread my posts and the sentiment contained within them. Alas, I've just remembered why I don't ordinarily engage in discussions on the main board, so on that note, I'll bid you adieu and leave you all to it.

Given you've clearly decided that Fabinho is now an accomplice, and have begun framing your questions to entrench that idea, I don't see much scope for further discussion here Al. For that reason, I'm going to leave you to your opinions and vacate the thread. Toodles.

That seriously is a cowardly crock of shit. Again, what would you do,?

[Billy The Kid]

That seriously is a cowardly crock of shit. Again, what would you do,?

Cowardly crock of shit you say? With all due respect mate, I tried having a similar conversation in the Henderson 2 weeks ago, which resulted in me being baited into a passive aggressive shit fest by another poster, who thought it was A-ok to sling all kinds of derision at me, just because I dared to hold a slightly different view on Hendo's departure. I subsequently copped a ban, which as you can probably see by my profile, has landed me on the watched list for the foreseeable. Call me a cynic, but Judging by the tone of your post, I fear this conversation is likely to head in a similar direction. So if it's ok with you, I'd rather bow out as I don't really have the energy or inclination to keep going around on this.

I'll leave you on this note though: It is my personal view that if the sport of football is ever to be cleansed of the sportswashing that has clearly ruined it, then it will require us the fans (and indeed the fans of all clubs) to cease our idle squabbling, acknowledge that all clubs (including our own) are now complicit in enabling the problem, and form a well organised protest to hit them where it hurts. I.E boycott all games and grounds until the relevant authorities and associations take the corrective actions needed to restore parity and fairness within the game. Because from what I can see, cribbing about Jordan Henderson and Stan Fabinho fucking off to Saudi is essentially just pissing in the wind. Fan protests is a whole other debate though, and an ideal that I don't ever see materialising, so fuck it. Tally ho

[Titi Camara]

I don't want to discuss this any further but here's my reply

[alonsoisared]

Billy is spot on. He's argued in detail and without being insulting, unless he's been insulted first which he was in that Henderson thread last week.

[Titi Camara]

"If you're not willing to protest the club and sport and league taking any money from KSA, you can't have an opinion on a player leaving for the KSA money"

Is quite the take, and not one I would consider to be spot on.

[Dim Glas]

It's easy to call me a bellend though, isn't it? Much easier to do that than have to admit there's a seriously big blood money soaked elephant in the room here, and neither ourselves or the club can get out of it without us all having to (a) selectively compromise our moral standards, and (b) admit that we've all been engaging in a little bit of selective hypocritical shite talk. Just calling someone a bellend is much easier, isn't it?

It’s shit that they are doing business and therefore helping these clubs. But the issues wouldn’t have arisen had these players not had their heads turned by pure greed.

Sure, not great that the club deal with Saudi clubs, but they aren’t given a lot of choice because the players hold the power here, either they let them go, or they have disgruntled players on their hands. Just not sure what you expect or believe fans should do - not say anything because they won’t spend their time posting about the clubs side in it too? As that isn’t right. Better to bring attention to how shit this all is from one side, than no side at all.

[alonsoisared]

This problem in football is for the institutions to deal with, IMO. Or rather, it was for the institutions to prevent in the first place. That's the government potentially, or the footballing governing bodies. The clubs themselves have power as institutions to protect the game. None have them have any will to act and indeed if anything they have been very happy to deal with the likes of the Saudi's because it equals money.

However, plenty on here seem to expect a lot from individuals. It's a more optimistic outlook that I respect but then it also puts a bit of pressure on them as individuals to do something as well, doesn't it? It's easy to sit online and call our most successful captain in a lot of our lifetimes a "c*nt" for accepting a gigantic pay day at the end of his career. It's less easy to see that the entire game is fucked and that, realistically, if we want it to change we are either relying on proper governing body intervention or active revolt from supporters.
We managed it with our internet terrorists back in the H+G era to be fair.

Anything that makes people question their own stance, their own club or their own favourite individual is dismissed as whataboutery. While at the same time they are extremely black and white when it suits. We're accepting 40 million from the Saudis? Well it's a murky game, what can you do? It's not like we approached them. I'd rather we didn't but that's how it is. A player has accepted Saudi money? He's a c*nt, and if you think he isn't, you're probably a c*nt too.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Ultimately, most top-level footballers are trained from an early age to think of themselves as commodities and they judge their worth by how much money someone is willing to pay them/how many trophies they have. It's what makes the rare example of someone running counter to that so valuable, and why so many looked up to Hendo when he was captain.

As for Fabinho, he was an important part of the Klopp era and I'll probably have fond memories of both him and Henderson on the pitch, but the moves will always cast a pall over them as people and make them unrelatable. Same with Fowler, Gerrard and Firmino, sadly. But hey, Fabinho seems to have genuinely loved the club and the fans. I hope he develops a conscience and that we spend the money well. 

[Black Bull Nova]

Nothing will take away Henderson's past achievements on the field of play for me. He captained us to every trophy there was available to win.

Basically retiring to a footballing wasteland whilst abandoning previously stated principles blows a massive hole in his credibility though, both professionally and as a man. In professional football terms, Henderson, Fabinho etc have retired and are just being paid as sportswashing figureheads whilst having a kickabout in the sun. If it was Saudi money on offer from them, they'd have given up playing for a global giant like Liverpool in order to play for Marine in Crosby. That might not damage previous legacy, but it certainly damages current and ongoing credibility. The step down in terms of professional football really is that big.

Yeah totally, they have effectively given up competitive football, I'll bet Southgate sees no more of Jordan as he won't be fully match fit anymore, walking football in the sun in front of (at very best) 22,500 people (average last year 6,000+), being coached by Gerrard's Huyton mates and living in 40 degree plus heat most days. Enjoy your blood money mate.
As for Fab, he'll see bigger crowds but who cares, really

[classycarra]

"If you're not willing to protest the club and sport and league taking any money from KSA, you can't have an opinion on a player leaving for the KSA money"

Is quite the take, and not one I would consider to be spot on.

what's extra funny about his take, and his efforts to proselytize, is that after sharing his many and long opinions multiple times today he says he doesn't see any protests happening "so fuck it" - making him appear to be a hypocrite.

if anything, it reads like trying to justify the cognitive dissonance of both (a) not wanting to be critical of club and players we've built an affinity and (b) not wanting to do anything despite believing that the sport is already ruined - its quite have your cake and eat it (but then preach to others about how their views are too black and white)

[FLRed67]

I strongly suspect that Firmino and Fabinho, as known Christians, will be given special treatment. My guess is that they will be advised to be discreet about their beliefs, not to evangelise and not to be demonstrative while on the pitch. Obviously there aren’t any churches they can attend but the regime will not be punishing them for praying in their own homes or treating them as if they were ordinary Saudi subjects. Equality before the law obviously doesn’t exist any way under that feudal regime.

I doubt either of them will be that bothered about such restrictions. They seemed to get a thrill from kneeling down together on the pitch, pointing to the sky and praying while 50,000 people watched on. That won’t be allowed to happen, which is a bit of a pity for them. But Firmino’s Christianity, from what we could gather from that puff-piece documentary, was not social but highly tailored to thanking God for making him skilful with a football and very wealthy. It wasn’t the Christianity of social and political revolt or concern with the poor and marginalised. It was the Christianity of ‘Look at me, I’m blessed’. That ought to be fine in the Saudi despotism. It doesn’t present a threat to anyone.

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the players all kneeling, season after season, in deference to a money-laundering operation?

Or does the contempt only extend to "look at me" Brazilian Christians?

[GreatEx]

https://www.asiabookofrecords.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/13122012029.jpg

[hide5seek]

Billy is spot on. He's argued in detail and without being insulting, unless he's been insulted first which he was in that Henderson thread last week.

Spot on my arse. He's slagging supporters off for attacking players who've shown little moral fibre and sold their arses to make themselves even richer in a backwards country where you can die for being born gay. It's coming across as leave the players alone they've done nothing wrong. Well they fecking have.

[hide5seek]

This problem in football is for the institutions to deal with, IMO. Or rather, it was for the institutions to prevent in the first place. That's the government potentially, or the footballing governing bodies. The clubs themselves have power as institutions to protect the game. None have them have any will to act and indeed if anything they have been very happy to deal with the likes of the Saudi's because it equals money.

However, plenty on here seem to expect a lot from individuals. It's a more optimistic outlook that I respect but then it also puts a bit of pressure on them as individuals to do something as well, doesn't it? It's easy to sit online and call our most successful captain in a lot of our lifetimes a "c*nt" for accepting a gigantic pay day at the end of his career. It's less easy to see that the entire game is fucked and that, realistically, if we want it to change we are either relying on proper governing body intervention or active revolt from supporters.
We managed it with our internet terrorists back in the H+G era to be fair.

Anything that makes people question their own stance, their own club or their own favourite individual is dismissed as whataboutery. While at the same time they are extremely black and white when it suits. We're accepting 40 million from the Saudis? Well it's a murky game, what can you do? It's not like we approached them. I'd rather we didn't but that's how it is. A player has accepted Saudi money? He's a c*nt, and if you think he isn't, you're probably a c*nt too.

.
What do you think our reaction to the players who've taken Saudi money should be?

[GreatEx]

I have no problem with Billy et al raising the spectre of LFC's complicity. It doesn't sit comfortably with me that we're taking substantial transfer fees (assuming they actually pay up) from sportswashing theocratic tyrants. I raised the moral dilemma (trilemma?) during the Henderson saga about whether it would be preferable to let him go for free as a moral stand, demand an extortionate fee as discouragement, or demand fair market rate as a neutral stance. Most who responded felt fair market value was the right approach. After all, the club also has an ethical standard to maintain, namely that they do not impede players who want to leave, nor are they the moral guardians of staff who maybe care less about the issues, and (swallows bile) they have a fiduciary duty to shareholders to get maximum return on investments. So I am inclined towards Titi's remark about the sliding scale of shittiness. It surely does not need explaining why Henderson is the most reviled of those who have transacted with KSA this summer, just read the latest from Thomas Hitzlsperger or Kop Outs if you need a refresher. Yes, by all means hold LFC's toes to the fire, they are not pure as the driven snow, but don't do so as a deflection from the worst culprits, because people will understandably suspect you have a "Greta Thunberg took a plane ride" agenda going on.

[Yorkykopite]

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the players all kneeling, season after season, in deference to a money-laundering operation?

Or does the contempt only extend to "look at me" Brazilian Christians?

Most churches in America are probably money laundering operations, but that’s almost certainly not true in the UK where they are much more marginalised anyway. But they are kneeling to a god I think and not a church as such.

[Billy The Kid]

I don't want to discuss this any further but here's my reply

Well considering I was accused of being a coward, with my posts being dismissed as crocks of shit (which judging by your choice of emoji's, you seem to be a-ok with) I just figured I'd respectfully defend myself by letting the poster know that the tone of the discussion doesn't appear to be allowing much room for a respectful exchange of views.

And given I was baited into a similar discussion 2 weeks ago, which resulted in my posts being blown out of context, my character attacked, and my posting privileges temporarily removed (partly my own fault admittedly), I just figured I'd go for a more peaceful approach, outline my views one last time, so as to assure some of the more tetchy members of the forum that I'm not actually the cowardly unscrupulous bastard they seem to think I am   

I recognise you're a moderator mate, and that ultimately, we're all just a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. But I'd like to think that I've been on the forum long enough to ask that I not be made a c*nt of. I hope that's fair enough. Now that we've all made our feelings and view points known, I'm happy to leave it there if you are?   

[GreatEx]

Most churches in America are probably money laundering operations, but that’s almost certainly not true in the UK where they are much more marginalised anyway. But they are kneeling to a god I think and not a church as such.

I thought he was referring to BLM, hence my image that I couldn't embed because google is a fuck.

[Billy The Kid]

Spot on my arse. He's slagging supporters off for attacking players who've shown little moral fibre and sold their arses to make themselves even richer in a backwards country where you can die for being born gay. It's coming across as leave the players alone they've done nothing wrong. Well they fecking have.

Christ.... I know I shouldn't.... but here goes

I slagged no one mate. I simply pointed out (what I feel to be) gross hypocrisy on the oart of our fan base. The reason I chose to point it out is because it appears to me, that a lot of people deem it fair game to question the moral fibre of any player taking Saudi blood money, yet don't seem to want to address the fact that our club (and indeed many others) are also complicit in enabling sportswashing by taking the same money onto their balance sheets. Now if you wish to disagree with that mate then disagree away.  Just don't call me a coward or accuse me of slagging people off for offering up what I consider to be some cold hard truths. Is that ok? Does that work for you? Is that a fair enough explanation?

Edit: if you want to question the moral fibre of ex-players then work away. Knock yourself out. All I'm saying is at least be consistent in your outrage and direct it evenly

[Yorkykopite]

I thought he was referring to BLM, hence my image that I couldn't embed because google is a fuck.

He was. He just didn’t have the courage to say it.

[Yorkykopite]

Christ.... I know I shouldn't.... but here goes

I slagged no one mate. I simply pointed out (what I feel to be) gross hypocrisy on the oart of our fan base. The reason I chose to point it out is because it appears to me, that a lot of people deem it fair game to question the moral fibre of any player taking Saudi blood money, yet don't seem to want to address the fact that our club (and indeed many others) are also complicit in enabling sportswashing by taking the same money onto their balance sheets. Now if you wish to disagree with that mate then disagree away.  Just don't call me a coward or accuse me of slagging people off for offering up what I consider to be some cold hard truths. Is that ok? Does that work for you? Is that a fair enough explanation?

I think it’s a poor argument Billy. Don’t let the perfect become the enemy of the good, as they say. The perfect situation is that nobody here would have anything to do with the Saudis. But in the complex world we live in that is extremely unlikely. The good alternative - much easier to achieve - is that well-paid professional footballers do not seek late careers in the land of executions and thereby put us all - supporters as well as clubs - in the firing line.

There are levels of responsibility here. I reject your argument that I am on the same level as Henderson simply because I continue to support Liverpool. I also reject your idea that Liverpool are on the same level of Henderson because they demanded some financial compensation for losing their captain. In fact your argument about me (and others) being “gross hypocrites” is similar to the old criticism that was directed at socialists who continued to work for a wage under capitalism. It was said, very much as you’re saying here, that any contact with the capitalist system, however passive, secondary or coerced, deprived that person of the rights of criticism. Indeed made him or her as morally culpable as the factory owner or the Governor of the Bank of England.

Nah.

[So… Howard Philips]

I thought he was referring to BLM, hence my image that I couldn't embed because google is a fuck.

That was my take as well.

Surprised George Soros didn’t get a mention as well.

[rob1966]

He was. He just didn’t have the courage to say it.

I'm pretty sure he's a Trump supporter

[rob1966]

I think it’s a poor argument Billy. Don’t let the perfect become the enemy of the good, as they say. The perfect situation is that nobody here would have anything to do with the Saudis. But in the complex world we live in that is extremely unlikely. The good alternative - much easier to achieve - is that well-paid professional footballers do not seek late careers in the land of executions and thereby put us all - supporters as well as clubs - in the firing line.

There are levels of responsibility here. I reject your argument that I am on the same level as Henderson simply because I continue to support Liverpool. I also reject your idea that Liverpool are on the same level of Henderson because they demanded some financial compensation for losing their captain. In fact your argument about me (and others) being “gross hypocrites” is similar to the old criticism that was directed at socialists who continued to work for a wage under capitalism. It was said, very much as you’re saying here, that any contact with the capitalist system, however passive, secondary or coerced, deprived that person of the rights of criticism. Indeed made him or her as morally culpable as the factory owner or the Governor of the Bank of England.

Nah.

I had a very quick look at the PIF site. Just looking at 3 of in their portfolio, they invest in Lucid Inc, a Californian company making luxury electric cars, Uber and AccorInvest Group, so if you stay in a Mercure, Ibis or Novotel hotel, hail an Uber or fancy a luxury car, you're giving money to the Saudis. They're spreading their fund all across the globe.

[Billy The Kid]

I reject your argument that I am on the same level as Henderson simply because I continue to support Liverpool. I also reject your idea that Liverpool are on the same level of Henderson because they demanded some financial compensation for losing their captain.

Yorky I love you, but fucking fuckity fuck pal, I never inferred people were on the "same level" as Henderson for continuing to support Liverpool. You're just jigsawing my posts mate

I'll try one last time. I think Sportswashing in all its forms is bad. Some of these forms may differ in nature (i.e. players accepting contracts and clubs accepting transfer funds into their coffers) but I think its fair to say that it's all bad. Both contribute to the perpetuation of sportswashing as its the same money soaked in the same blood. Obviously we can split hairs here with regards to culpability, and argue back and forth over which is the lesser of the 2 evils, but my overriding point is they're BOTH STILL evil. Something which many seem to be casually ignoring. And until us the fans acknowledge that, and start holding our clubs to account, we're essentially just pissing in the wind moaning about player x and y. I'm not saying you can't be angry mate, I'm saying be consistent in your anger

[So… Howard Philips]

I had a very quick look at the PIF site. Just looking at 3 of in their portfolio, they invest in Lucid Inc, a Californian company making luxury electric cars, Uber and AccorInvest Group, so if you stay in a Mercure, Ibis or Novotel hotel, hail an Uber or fancy a luxury car, you're giving money to the Saudis. They're spreading their fund all across the globe.

Had a drink in the bar at the Accor owned Municipal in Dale Street the other week.

Sack cloth and ashes for me.

https://all.accor.com/hotel/B9E8/index.en.shtml?utm_term=mar&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsc_dkNa9gAMVwvrtCh0L3QIVEAAYASAAEgIEUfD_BwE&utm_campaign=ppc-mga-mar-goo-uk-en-dom_rest-mix-s&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=uk-en-all-all&utm_source=google

[Dim Glas]

I'm pretty sure he's a Trump supporter

he’s defo the most un-Liverpool Liverpool ‘fan’ on here    Just doesn’t fit at all with what this club and city is about! He’s got a Chelsea vibe.

[classycarra]

he’s defo the most un-Liverpool Liverpool ‘fan’ on here    Just doesn’t fit at all with what this club and city is about! He’s got a Chelsea vibe.

I always thought they were from Florida (seeing the very right wing politics), but I reckon they're actually from Florianopolis in Brazil

Think that, like Rebecca Tavares they don't just share a (understandable and healthy) distrust in Lula's party, but actively seem quite into Bolsonaro - if I interpret their defensiveness of Fabinho's views correctly

[Trotterwatch]

This Saudi bollocks is ruining my love for the game. Sure it'll return once the season starts.  Another one to add to the pile.

[GreatEx]

I always thought they were from Florida (seeing the very right wing politics), but I reckon they're actually from Florianopolis in Brazil

I did a bit of sleuthing, profile says North America, so I'm going with Florida. Given that the political climate in that state is akin to Germany 1933, I'm not gonna judge anyone from there for being a little fashy

[Titi Camara]

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the players all kneeling, season after season, in deference to a money-laundering operation?

Can you clarify what "operation" you are referring to here?

[rob1966]

Can you clarify what "operation" you are referring to here?

The only thing the players have knelt for is BLM and it has been reported in the states about a purchase of a $6m house in California using donations to BLM, so I'm pretty sure that's what he is going on about

[Titi Camara]

The only thing the players have knelt for is BLM and it has been reported in the states about a purchase of a $6m house in California using donations to BLM, so I'm pretty sure that's what he is going on about

I appreciate you trying to answer for him, Rob. I'd just like him to clarify his point.

[Historical Fool]

Billy for what it’s worth I appreciate the restraint and clarity you have striven to implant in recent posts.

I’m saying this because I don’t want you to feel you’re being attacked by everyone et Al …

[Yorkykopite]

Yorky I love you, but fucking fuckity fuck pal, I never inferred people were on the "same level" as Henderson for continuing to support Liverpool. You're just jigsawing my posts mate

I'll try one last time. I think Sportswashing in all its forms is bad. Some of these forms may differ in nature (i.e. players accepting contracts and clubs accepting transfer funds into their coffers) but I think its fair to say that it's all bad. Both contribute to the perpetuation of sportswashing as its the same money soaked in the same blood. Obviously we can split hairs here with regards to culpability, and argue back and forth over which is the lesser of the 2 evils, but my overriding point is they're BOTH STILL evil. Something which many seem to be casually ignoring. And until us the fans acknowledge that, and start holding our clubs to account, we're essentially just pissing in the wind moaning about player x and y. I'm not saying you can't be angry mate, I'm saying be consistent in your anger

Yes, understood.

[Jake]

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the players all kneeling, season after season, in deference to a money-laundering operation?

Or does the contempt only extend to "look at me" Brazilian Christians?

Had a few days off RAWK (after my few months off aka bliss)

Being opposed to racism is a money laundering operation?

You're a fucking joker you mate. Did you storm the capitol too? Not a fucking clue about what this club and city stand for. Get fucked off to Chelsea or Millwall