Poll

Tory Christmas Party

Nothing like a good old knees up!
They should apologise and come clean
Johnson should resign
The front bench should resign
The entire party should resign
The entire party should be put in an Elon Musk rocket and fired off to jupiter with 2 packets of hula hoops and a pot noodle
I LOVE cheese!

Author Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!  (Read 1165066 times)

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5400 on: January 20, 2020, 10:18:11 pm »
Find she lacks any substance, still not sure what politics she stands for except ‘this isn’t working’ & ‘we need to get through’; is more of a personality than anything. Although it worked for Boris.
Yes...

I’m not sure her grasp of policy detail is very good, I do agree...  I don’t think she’s got a chance of getting it because she was so critical of Corbyn ...

But I do find her no bullshit approach refreshing. 
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5401 on: January 20, 2020, 11:35:10 pm »
I think many of us expected this reaction. they should be apologizing for what's happened over the last 4 yrs . this period has been disastrous for the man on the street, I doubt the country will recover to where it was in 2015 and they still want to carry on singing "Oh Jeremy Corbyn"
actually i think many people should be apologising lets start with the PLP who at the start of the corbyn leadership many were offered shadow cabinet posts in the broad church ideology but decided to plot against him out of pure spite, that left a second rate shadow cabinet without the experience people like Benn et al could have brought to it, then maybe some of the so called labour supporters who for four years became a new version of the bitters
then we have Corbyn’s poor judgement about who he took advice from i dont just mean the close advisors even though they were crap
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5402 on: January 21, 2020, 01:15:06 am »
actually i think many people should be apologising lets start with the PLP who at the start of the corbyn leadership many were offered shadow cabinet posts in the broad church ideology but decided to plot against him out of pure spite, that left a second rate shadow cabinet without the experience people like Benn et al could have brought to it, then maybe some of the so called labour supporters who for four years became a new version of the bitters
then we have Corbyn’s poor judgement about who he took advice from i dont just mean the close advisors even though they were crap
I actually praised Corbyn +McDonnell when he took over the leadership for making the arguments opposing austerity (McDonnell especially as he made the better arguments in his speeches) but he was that bad I naively thought he must know he isn't leadership material. it was so obvious I thought surely he will step down and let someone else take over when he's changed the partys direction on fighting austerity, I can give a few examples of why he was never leadership material leading up to and after the vote of no confidence ,  it had nothing to do with left or right wing politics, he never gave much thought to obvious questions and how to answer those questions, someone who actually had foresight to warn and educate the country, how to actually come out of those interviews looking like we were in safe hands. that's leaving out his baggage and his scrutiny of the Tories in Parliament,  I think the PLP saw all the same flaws in Corbyn as I saw. Corbyn lost the confidence of the PLP long before the result of the referendum but his attitude and arguments after the result showed just how unfit he was to be leader. it wasn't just the PLP who hit the roof, many of us did, he was so far out of his depth he didn't have a clue on just how much harm he had done.
I don't think Corbyn trusts many Labour MPs, with good reason I suppose, they have no confidence in him. he knows all the f..ups will be leaked, same with his advisors, full of baggage but old trusted m8s who will never blow him up.
The PLP took action for a very good reason, Corbyn was leading the party and the country to disaster.
Corbyn refused to do what other leaders have always done and stand down, he argued he won't betray the people who support him. who should apologise, the people who tried to stop this right wing take over disaster or the people who kept a leader in power who had shown he was completely out of his depth to stop it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 03:00:41 am by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5403 on: January 21, 2020, 09:13:25 am »
I actually praised Corbyn +McDonnell when he took over the leadership for making the arguments opposing austerity (McDonnell especially as he made the better arguments in his speeches) but he was that bad I naively thought he must know he isn't leadership material. it was so obvious I thought surely he will step down and let someone else take over when he's changed the partys direction on fighting austerity, I can give a few examples of why he was never leadership material leading up to and after the vote of no confidence ,  it had nothing to do with left or right wing politics, he never gave much thought to obvious questions and how to answer those questions, someone who actually had foresight to warn and educate the country, how to actually come out of those interviews looking like we were in safe hands. that's leaving out his baggage and his scrutiny of the Tories in Parliament,  I think the PLP saw all the same flaws in Corbyn as I saw. Corbyn lost the confidence of the PLP long before the result of the referendum but his attitude and arguments after the result showed just how unfit he was to be leader. it wasn't just the PLP who hit the roof, many of us did, he was so far out of his depth he didn't have a clue on just how much harm he had done.
I don't think Corbyn trusts many Labour MPs, with good reason I suppose, they have no confidence in him. he knows all the f..ups will be leaked, same with his advisors, full of baggage but old trusted m8s who will never blow him up.
The PLP took action for a very good reason, Corbyn was leading the party and the country to disaster.
Corbyn refused to do what other leaders have always done and stand down, he argued he won't betray the people who support him. who should apologise, the people who tried to stop this right wing take over disaster or the people who kept a leader in power who had shown he was completely out of his depth to stop it.
well we can agree to disagree i feel rather than plot against his leadership they would have been better staying put and persuading or indeed arguing their case from the inside, that would have got rid of the most damaging them and us split which only made the support for Corbyn stronger.

as for brexit so often used as a critique, why have i hardly ever read any condemnation of Alan Johnson who was  a fairly inconsequential figure during the debates when he bothered to turn up and he was in charge of the remain group.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5404 on: January 21, 2020, 09:23:26 am »
Can people please try not to get these threads locked.

Don't raise to posters bait, try not to get personal and stay on point.

There are one or two posters that like to post things from Twatter and make inflammatory comments (usually about certain parts of the Labour party), who generally adds little quality to the discussion on here.  Try to ignore them.  We are looking to the future now, there will be a new leader soon.

If you come across a post that you think is turd, just skip over it instead, or make a joke out of it.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 09:27:06 am by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5405 on: January 21, 2020, 10:35:17 am »
Gordon Brown’s widely reported piece (on his website, Observer, Guardian - can’t locate URL, but it’s easy to find) was a well considered appraisal of the dangers of English nationalism, and the solution being an increase of devolution and regional control and cooperation.

(Exactly how you persuade a Tory Party who’s front bench is so entrenched in English nationalism, and has a huge majority, is quite another matter.)

Brown evokes Orwell’s distinction between patriotism and nationalism, which is apposite given the whole tenor of the Brexit debate. SNP supporters on here will be familiar with his views, but I think he’s right to point out the economic pitfalls of Scottish independence. Anyway, it’s a worthwhile read, particularly because he explores the wider European picture regarding consensus politics and isolationism.
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5406 on: January 21, 2020, 10:57:06 am »
As a new low for the BBC, there have been loads of messages in HYS that are driving a new narrative:

Remainers are the Racists.


I have reported a couple of these posts and the BBC's response:

"we have decided that it does not contravene the House Rules and are going to leave it on site."



So the BBC are now the driving force behind this new media idea - Leavers aren't the xenophobic, bigoted racists - Remainers are..

Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5407 on: January 21, 2020, 11:06:45 am »
As a new low for the BBC, there have been loads of messages in HYS that are driving a new narrative:

Remainers are the Racists.


I have reported a couple of these posts and the BBC's response:

"we have decided that it does not contravene the House Rules and are going to leave it on site."



So the BBC are now the driving force behind this new media idea - Leavers aren't the xenophobic, bigoted racists - Remainers are..

Stuart Lee nails it.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/uovt1sC3rtM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/uovt1sC3rtM</a>
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5408 on: January 21, 2020, 11:09:42 am »
As a new low for the BBC, there have been loads of messages in HYS that are driving a new narrative:

Remainers are the Racists.


I have reported a couple of these posts and the BBC's response:

"we have decided that it does not contravene the House Rules and are going to leave it on site."



So the BBC are now the driving force behind this new media idea - Leavers aren't the xenophobic, bigoted racists - Remainers are..

But this isn't new is it?

During the campaign there were plenty of references from the likes of Frottage that immigration rules benefited white Europeans and discriminated against Black and Asian immigrants. Not wholly true but typical deflection.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5409 on: January 21, 2020, 12:09:31 pm »
well we can agree to disagree i feel rather than plot against his leadership they would have been better staying put and persuading or indeed arguing their case from the inside, that would have got rid of the most damaging them and us split which only made the support for Corbyn stronger.

as for brexit so often used as a critique, why have i hardly ever read any condemnation of Alan Johnson who was  a fairly inconsequential figure during the debates when he bothered to turn up and he was in charge of the remain group.
Yeah, that's fine, we can all disagree but is it fair to describe what happened as the majority of the PLP plotting against him when they lost complete confidence in him being the leader of the Labour party,  that's not really a plot is it, it's just how they feel, they knew he was leading the party to disaster, no leader can run the party without the support of the PLP. he needed a capable shadow cabinet and that was impossible after he lost the PLPs confidence.
I don't know what was actually said between Corbyn and Hillary Benn the night Corbyn sacked him (2 nights after the referendum) but am sure he must have let Corbyn know just how much he had let the party down over the previous few months, I think this kicked it all off. Benn did keep his criticisms private, made no difference to Corbyn, he sacked him and issued a public statement that infuriated many.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5410 on: January 21, 2020, 12:22:47 pm »
Yeah, that's fine, we can all disagree but is it fair to describe what happened as the majority of the PLP plotting against him when they lost complete confidence in him being the leader of the Labour party,  that's not really a plot is it, it's just how they feel, they knew he was leading the party to disaster, no leader can run the party without the support of the PLP. he needed a capable shadow cabinet and that was impossible after he lost the PLPs confidence.
I don't know what was actually said between Corbyn and Hillary Benn the night Corbyn sacked him (2 nights after the referendum) but am sure he must have let Corbyn know just how much he had let the party down over the previous few months, I think this kicked it all off. Benn did keep his criticisms private, made no difference to Corbyn, he sacked him and issued a public statement that infuriated many.

It was reported that Benn had put himself forward as a de facto spokesperson amongst the disgruntled MPs. As Wiki summarises it:

"On 25 June 2016, The Observer revealed that Benn "called fellow MPs over the weekend to suggest that he will ask Corbyn to stand down if there is significant support for a move against the leader. He has also asked shadow cabinet colleagues to join him in resigning if the Labour leader ignores that request."[62] During a phone call in the early hours of 26 June, Benn told Corbyn that Labour MPs and shadow cabinet members had "no confidence in our ability to win the election" under his leadership. Corbyn then dismissed Benn from his position as Shadow Foreign Secretary. In a statement issued at 03:30, Benn said: "It has now become clear that there is widespread concern among Labour MPs and in the shadow cabinet about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of our party. In particular, there is no confidence in our ability to win the next election, which may come much sooner than expected, if Jeremy continues as leader."[63] Later in the morning, Heidi Alexander, the Shadow Secretary of State for Health, also resigned. Throughout the day, a further eight members of the shadow cabinet resigned"

That whole period was a shitshow from both sides. the PLP had justified concerns regarding the ability of Corbyn to be not just the leader of the Labour Party, but an effective leader of the opposition. Yet there was a lot of skulduggery at play from certain MPs, who were briefing Tory-supporting newspapers and severely damaging the LP in the process. Given pretty much all of those manoeuvring against the whole Corbyn & Co leadership were from the same wing of the party that had gagged the left and put them in a straightjacket, I can understand the suspicion from the left. Corbyn's group reacted petulantly, though.

Putting unity at the forefront and focusing on the real 'enemy' would obviously have served the party and the British people far better.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5411 on: January 21, 2020, 12:36:24 pm »
Apologies if this graphic's been posted before, but I've only just seen it, and it's a good illustration of how the numbers stacked up against Labour in the lat election:



A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5412 on: January 21, 2020, 12:39:17 pm »
In simple terms, Corbyn's confused and dithery position on Brexit alienated both Remainers & Leavers, whilst Tory Remainers were too fearful of a Corbyn-led government to vote against the Tories in anything like enough numbers.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5413 on: January 21, 2020, 12:44:01 pm »
Stuart Lee nails it.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/uovt1sC3rtM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/uovt1sC3rtM</a>


Brilliant that


Funny thing is you could hear the kind of worried intake of breath from the Leave voters.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5414 on: January 21, 2020, 01:43:58 pm »
It was reported that Benn had put himself forward as a de facto spokesperson amongst the disgruntled MPs. As Wiki summarises it:

"On 25 June 2016, The Observer revealed that Benn "called fellow MPs over the weekend to suggest that he will ask Corbyn to stand down if there is significant support for a move against the leader. He has also asked shadow cabinet colleagues to join him in resigning if the Labour leader ignores that request."[62] During a phone call in the early hours of 26 June, Benn told Corbyn that Labour MPs and shadow cabinet members had "no confidence in our ability to win the election" under his leadership. Corbyn then dismissed Benn from his position as Shadow Foreign Secretary. In a statement issued at 03:30, Benn said: "It has now become clear that there is widespread concern among Labour MPs and in the shadow cabinet about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of our party. In particular, there is no confidence in our ability to win the next election, which may come much sooner than expected, if Jeremy continues as leader."[63] Later in the morning, Heidi Alexander, the Shadow Secretary of State for Health, also resigned. Throughout the day, a further eight members of the shadow cabinet resigned"

That whole period was a shitshow from both sides. the PLP had justified concerns regarding the ability of Corbyn to be not just the leader of the Labour Party, but an effective leader of the opposition. Yet there was a lot of skulduggery at play from certain MPs, who were briefing Tory-supporting newspapers and severely damaging the LP in the process. Given pretty much all of those manoeuvring against the whole Corbyn & Co leadership were from the same wing of the party that had gagged the left and put them in a straightjacket, I can understand the suspicion from the left. Corbyn's group reacted petulantly, though.

Putting unity at the forefront and focusing on the real 'enemy' would obviously have served the party and the British people far better.
Thanks. there's only way MPs will react when they have lost confidence in the leader and that's asking the leader to stand down.
I am sure many Labour MPs did have conversations with the press about Corbyns complete lack of leadership skills, they had to give reasons when asked why they wanted Corbyn to stand down.
To be honest I don't think Corbyn has ever cared about unity and the left need to put forward more competent people if they want the confidence of the PLP. the PLP lost confidence in Corbyn for good reasons, those reasons have never been acknowledged by the left.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 01:49:25 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5415 on: January 21, 2020, 02:02:45 pm »
I am sure many Labour MPs did have conversations with the press about Corbyns complete lack of leadership skills, they had to give reasons when asked why they wanted Corbyn to stand down.

It was more pernicious than that, mate.

But I agree with you about unity and needing a credible and capable leader.

If the left get the next couple of years badly wrong, it's going to destroy their aims for a properly left-of-centre Labour Party, as well as making the general public turn even more away from that sort of Labour Party.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5416 on: January 21, 2020, 02:25:27 pm »
Looks like Phillips is set to exit the leadership race.

Starmer will be hoping her MP’s dont back him.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5417 on: January 21, 2020, 02:25:38 pm »
It was more pernicious than that, mate.

But I agree with you about unity and needing a credible and capable leader.

If the left get the next couple of years badly wrong, it's going to destroy their aims for a properly left-of-centre Labour Party, as well as making the general public turn even more away from that sort of Labour Party.
I wish the future of the Labour party was all we had to worry about, a election defeat under these circumstance in the past would mean at least 5 more years of a Tory government and that's always bad news but the implications of loosing the last GE are far more serious.
I think Labour have the time to find a new competent leader as long as they don't repeat the same mistakes that led to Corbyn going into the last GE. elect RLB or Starmer or whoever but they must state they are prepared to stand down within a certain time if everything points to the country rejecting them. the last thing we want is Labour electing RLB and the PLP forced to rebel because she refuses to accept realty and the membership backing her. the same applies to Starmer.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5418 on: January 21, 2020, 02:36:31 pm »
To be honest I don't think Corbyn has ever cared about unity and the left need to put forward more competent people if they want the confidence of the PLP. the PLP lost confidence in Corbyn for good reasons, those reasons have never been acknowledged by the left.

I don't think this is fair. When Corbyn first got elected to the leadership, he said he wanted to involve talent from all wings of the party. But remember how it took him days to assemble his first shadow cabinet? That's because all the competent New Labour people refused his approaches and strode off to snipe from the back benches. All he could get to join him was lefties and second-rate chancers. A shame and a missed opportunity for Labour. With a shadow cabinet of all the talents, things could have gone very differently despite Corbyn's management limitations.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5419 on: January 21, 2020, 02:42:39 pm »
I don't think this is fair. When Corbyn first got elected to the leadership, he said he wanted to involve talent from all wings of the party. But remember how it took him days to assemble his first shadow cabinet? That's because all the competent New Labour people refused his approaches and strode off to snipe from the back benches. All he could get to join him was lefties and second-rate chancers. A shame and a missed opportunity for Labour. With a shadow cabinet of all the talents, things could have gone very differently despite Corbyn's management limitations.

Equally Corbyn had the chance to open up the cabinet form a position of strength after the 2017 GE when his authority was actually enhanced, but chose not to do so.

After the left acquired control of all levels of the party I didn't see any evidence of any interest in making the party a broad church.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5420 on: January 21, 2020, 02:43:09 pm »
I don't think this is fair. When Corbyn first got elected to the leadership, he said he wanted to involve talent from all wings of the party. But remember how it took him days to assemble his first shadow cabinet? That's because all the competent New Labour people refused his approaches and strode off to snipe from the back benches. All he could get to join him was lefties and second-rate chancers. A shame and a missed opportunity for Labour. With a shadow cabinet of all the talents, things could have gone very differently despite Corbyn's management limitations.
Corbyn started off with a decent shadow cabinet,many resigned after Benn was sacked.


Resignations

On Sunday 26 June and Monday 27 June 2016, a number of members of the shadow cabinet either resigned or were sacked. This process began with Jeremy Corbyn sacking Hilary Benn as Shadow Foreign Secretary in the early hours of Sunday morning after Corbyn informed Benn that he knew Benn had been constructing a coup against the Leadership during the run up to the vote to leave the European Union. Subsequently, the following resigned (in chronological order):

    Heidi Alexander – Shadow Health Secretary[12][13][14]
    Gloria De Piero – Shadow Minister for Young People and Voter Registration[13][14]
    Ian Murray – Shadow Scottish Secretary[13][14]
    Lilian Greenwood – Shadow Transport Secretary[13][14]
    Lucy Powell – Shadow Education Secretary[13][14]
    Kerry McCarthy – Shadow Environment Secretary[13][14]
    Seema Malhotra – Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury[13][14]
    Vernon Coaker – Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary[13][14]
    Charles Falconer – Shadow Justice Secretary[13][14]
    Karl Turner – Shadow Attorney General[13][14]
    Chris Bryant – Shadow Leader of the House of Commons[13][14]
    Diana Johnson – Shadow Foreign and Commonwealth Minister[14]

On 27 June:

    Lisa Nandy – Shadow Energy Secretary[13][14]
    Owen Smith – Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary[13][14]
    Angela Eagle – Shadow First Secretary of State and Shadow Business Secretary[13][14]
    John Healey – Shadow Minister for Housing and Planning[13][14]
    Nia Griffith – Shadow Welsh Secretary[13][14]
    Maria Eagle – Shadow Culture Secretary[13][14]
    Kate Green – Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities[13][14]
    Luciana Berger – Shadow Minister for Mental Health[13][14]

On 29 June:

    Pat Glass – new Shadow Education Secretary[14]
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5421 on: January 21, 2020, 03:17:25 pm »
The Leadership thread is locked for some reason, but Jess Philips has pulled out of the race
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51195059

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5422 on: January 21, 2020, 03:53:33 pm »
The Leadership thread is locked for some reason, but Jess Philips has pulled out of the race
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51195059



No great surprise, she wan't going to hit the 5% requirement from either CLPs or unions.

In terms of the broader race, I don't know how typical the early CLPs to vote are but the results so far would seem to give a bit of support to the idea that Starmer is the frontrunner amongst members at least.

So far, eighteen CLPs have nominated candidates to be leader of the Labour Party.

Keir Starmer: 12
Rebecca Long-Bailey: 4
Emily Thornberry: 2

Rayner also looking very strong in the deputy leader race.

For deputy leader:

Angela Rayner: 11
Richard Burgon: 2
Dawn Butler: 2
Ian Murray: 2
Rosena Allin-Khan 1
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 03:58:09 pm by filopastry »

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5423 on: January 21, 2020, 04:17:08 pm »
Nandy has the backing of the GMB, but apparently it was close between her and Starmer which I will still take as a positive as it means Long-Bailey couldn’t have done too well.
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5425 on: January 21, 2020, 05:15:41 pm »
Corbyn started off with a decent shadow cabinet,many resigned after Benn was sacked.


Resignations

On Sunday 26 June and Monday 27 June 2016, a number of members of the shadow cabinet either resigned or were sacked. This process began with Jeremy Corbyn sacking Hilary Benn as Shadow Foreign Secretary in the early hours of Sunday morning after Corbyn informed Benn that he knew Benn had been constructing a coup against the Leadership during the run up to the vote to leave the European Union. Subsequently, the following resigned (in chronological order):

    Heidi Alexander – Shadow Health Secretary[12][13][14]
    Gloria De Piero – Shadow Minister for Young People and Voter Registration[13][14]
    Ian Murray – Shadow Scottish Secretary[13][14]
    Lilian Greenwood – Shadow Transport Secretary[13][14]
    Lucy Powell – Shadow Education Secretary[13][14]
    Kerry McCarthy – Shadow Environment Secretary[13][14]
    Seema Malhotra – Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury[13][14]
    Vernon Coaker – Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary[13][14]
    Charles Falconer – Shadow Justice Secretary[13][14]
    Karl Turner – Shadow Attorney General[13][14]
    Chris Bryant – Shadow Leader of the House of Commons[13][14]
    Diana Johnson – Shadow Foreign and Commonwealth Minister[14]

On 27 June:

    Lisa Nandy – Shadow Energy Secretary[13][14]
    Owen Smith – Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary[13][14]
    Angela Eagle – Shadow First Secretary of State and Shadow Business Secretary[13][14]
    John Healey – Shadow Minister for Housing and Planning[13][14]
    Nia Griffith – Shadow Welsh Secretary[13][14]
    Maria Eagle – Shadow Culture Secretary[13][14]
    Kate Green – Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities[13][14]
    Luciana Berger – Shadow Minister for Mental Health[13][14]

On 29 June:

    Pat Glass – new Shadow Education Secretary[14]

Yes, the only bad thing about the legitimate and constitutional attempt to oust Corbyn (‘the coup’) was that it failed.

He survived. The Labour Party lost millions of supporters. It was a tragedy.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5426 on: January 21, 2020, 05:20:03 pm »
The Leadership thread is locked for some reason, but Jess Philips has pulled out of the race
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51195059

Rejoice!
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5427 on: January 21, 2020, 05:20:05 pm »
The Leadership thread is locked for some reason, but Jess Philips has pulled out of the race
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51195059



Such a pity. Her bid was the very definition of quixotic. Labour’s members don’t like her. Partly because the general public do probably. And because she savaged the worst Labour leader in history. That was unforgivable.

It is a pity though. The contest now looks sillier to the ordinary person’s eye.

I guess my own vote now has to go to Starmer. Unless Emily Thornberry keeps on doing well.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5428 on: January 21, 2020, 05:26:14 pm »
Yes, the only bad thing about the legitimate and constitutional attempt to oust Corbyn (‘the coup’) was that it failed.

He survived. The Labour Party lost millions of supporters. It was a tragedy.
It is a tragedy ,not only did Labour loose the GE both parties lost many intelligent brave MPs who had stuck their necks out fighting the Tories. the Tories will face even less serious scrutiny over the next 5 yrs.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5429 on: January 21, 2020, 05:33:50 pm »
It is a tragedy ,not only did Labour loose the GE both parties lost many intelligent brave MPs who had stuck their necks out fighting the Tories. the Tories will face even less serious scrutiny over the next 5 yrs.

It’s all water under the bridge now of course Fordie. But if the ‘coup’ had been victorious and there had been blood on the carpet (as it were Geoff) Labour might now be in government. The public, including most Labour supporters, desperately needed to see how much Labour MPs really disliked Corby and how much they hated the cultists. Why? Because that’s how the Labour-voting public felt too.
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5430 on: January 21, 2020, 06:03:57 pm »
Because that’s how the Labour-voting public felt too.

So just to spite him they vote for a right wing nutter instead. Brilliant!
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5431 on: January 21, 2020, 06:12:16 pm »
It’s all water under the bridge now of course Fordie. But if the ‘coup’ had been victorious and there had been blood on the carpet (as it were Geoff) Labour might now be in government. The public, including most Labour supporters, desperately needed to see how much Labour MPs really disliked Corby and how much they hated the cultists. Why? Because that’s how the Labour-voting public felt too.
I don't know if I would describe it as water under the bridge, I really hope future Labour leader candidates pledge to stand down if they loose the confidence of the PLP or all the polls tell them the country rejects them , what happened with Corbyn should never need to be repeated.
Ive only heard Thornbury make this pledge up to now but she's got no chance.
I imagine Starmer would respect the PLPs decision and stand down, wonder how RLB would answer this question.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5432 on: January 21, 2020, 06:30:41 pm »
I don't know if I would describe it as water under the bridge, I really hope future Labour leader candidates pledge to stand down if they loose the confidence of the PLP or all the polls tell them the country rejects them , what happened with Corbyn should never need to be repeated.
Ive only heard Thornbury make this pledge up to now but she's got no chance.
I imagine Starmer would respect the PLPs decision and stand down, wonder how RLB would answer this question.

The rules need to be changed so that any leader losing a VONC from the PLP needs to stand down, rather be expected to do so. Custom, tradition and decency means nothing nowadays.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5433 on: January 21, 2020, 06:50:29 pm »
The rules need to be changed so that any leader losing a VONC from the PLP needs to stand down, rather be expected to do so. Custom, tradition and decency means nothing nowadays.
I agree but it won't go down well with a lot of members.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5434 on: January 21, 2020, 07:37:27 pm »
I agree but it won't go down well with a lot of members.

It would if it was put forward at congress by someone on the national executive, but not if it is seen as the PLP ruling the roost in some elitist style over the membership, that would be back to the lack of inclusion as before.
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5435 on: January 21, 2020, 07:43:24 pm »
Interesting to see C4 news showing another one of their focus groups on former Labour voters who jumped ship in the last GE seeing how they reacted to the Labour candidates for leader.

No surprise that RLB was very unpopular amongst them and just seen as a Corbyn puppet, but I think there has to be a bit of a concern that they didn't  warm much more to Starmer, seen as being too corporate and weak, based on the show of hands I would say their order of preference was Nandy, Phillips (although it was in the Midlands so may have had a slight home advantage there), Thornberry, Starmer and Long Bailey.

Very early days obviously and opinions can change greatly given the low recognition of all the candidates, but always eye opening to see how people think about these things, the least said about their relative enthusiasm for Johnson the better.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 07:48:46 pm by filopastry »

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5436 on: January 21, 2020, 07:54:49 pm »
It would if it was put forward at congress by someone on the national executive, but not if it is seen as the PLP ruling the roost in some elitist style over the membership, that would be back to the lack of inclusion as before.
Yeah I don't think this can be something the PLP or National executive can put forward, can see people like Max Shanly giving a angry speech on how the leader should be accountable to the membership and not the PLP.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 07:59:10 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5437 on: January 21, 2020, 08:53:00 pm »
Yeah I don't think this can be something the PLP or National executive can put forward, can see people like Max Shanly giving a angry speech on how the leader should be accountable to the membership and not the PLP.

they should by some measure be accountable to both in my opinion
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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5438 on: January 21, 2020, 10:11:46 pm »
they should by some measure be accountable to both in my opinion
Yeah, I can understand how some members will feel. the members etc voted the leader in and the same democratic procedure should decide if that leader stays or goes but Corbyn could have refused to stand down now and argued he will only go when the members want him to go, many people believe Corbyn would have won again. that can't be right, it shows the system isn't working in practice.

It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Politics thread III - Remember us fighting each other makes Jeremy Cry :(
« Reply #5439 on: January 21, 2020, 10:28:18 pm »
Frankly, the election of leader should be left entirely to the PLP. If we elect MPs to run the country, they should be capable of electing their own leader. It makes little sense to have party members electing a leader if their choice is an anathema to those who must work under him/her.
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