Topic: Trent Alexander-Arnold

[Knight]

When you weigh up all factors itd be nothing short of absolute stubbornness not to give him a run in RCM now

It really isn't. What makes you think a player who isn't very press resistant and doesn't play on the half turn would suddenly develop those qualities in the position that most demands them in the whole team? He's a player who wants the game in front of him. He's a deep lying playmaker. So he will continue to be a RB granted plenty of freedom to playmake or he'll move to 6. But at 6, against good teams, he'll struggle when pressed or forced to play on the half turn.

[MonsLibpool]

It really isn't. What makes you think a player who isn't very press resistant and doesn't play on the half turn would suddenly develop those qualities in the position that most demands them in the whole team? He's a player who wants the game in front of him. He's a deep lying playmaker. So he will continue to be a RB granted plenty of freedom to playmake or he'll move to 6. But at 6, against good teams, he'll struggle when pressed or forced to play on the half turn.

Good teams already target him as a weak link and try to isolate him LOL. So trying him in another position might not be the best because he might be targeted when he's already targeted by literally every team we play in his current position? Even teams like Luton and Burnley got joy by taking him on 1v1.

[Eeyore]

But the two 8s we started with against Arsenal were Jones and Gravenberch, and both are very good on the half turn and can beat a press?

I think there were two issues at play against Arsenal though. Firstly Gomez isn't as talented on the ball when he inverts and the other is Arsenal playing without a Striker. They were quite happy for Ali, Ibou and Virgil to have the ball and only really pressed when Macca got on the ball.

With a box midfield, the idea is to get your 8's in space beyond their 8's. Arsenal essentially setup with two banks of 8's. We ended up with Jones becoming a second pivot instead of Gomez.

[tubby]

I think there were two issues at play against Arsenal though. Firstly Gomez isn't as talented on the ball when he inverts and the other is Arsenal playing without a Striker. They were quite happy for Ali, Ibou and Virgil to have the ball and only really pressed when Macca got on the ball.

With a box midfield, the idea is to get your 8's in space beyond their 8's. Arsenal essentially setup with two banks of 8's. We ended up with Jones becoming a second pivot instead of Gomez.

But that's not what we're talking about.

You said: "As for being an 8 they are the very players who need to be able to receive the ball on the half turn to beat the press. Against Arsenal, we were getting Macca on the ball but his passes into the 8's were coming right back to him or the centrebacks and Ali."

So are you saying it was actually Arsenal's tactical set up that forced the 8s to play it back every time?  If so, that's nothing to do with them being able to take it on the half turn, because the two who played as 8s are more than capable of that.

[Eeyore]

But that's not what we're talking about.

You said: "As for being an 8 they are the very players who need to be able to receive the ball on the half turn to beat the press. Against Arsenal, we were getting Macca on the ball but his passes into the 8's were coming right back to him or the centrebacks and Ali."

So are you saying it was actually Arsenal's tactical set up that forced the 8s to play it back every time?  If so, that's nothing to do with them being able to take it on the half turn, because the two who played as 8s are more than capable of that.

If you are going down the road of playing an IFB and a box midfield then you need two things. Two players who are comfortable in possession as the pivots and two 8's who are comfortable finding pockets of space higher up the pitch and receiving the ball on the half-turn.

If you are going to play Trent as the right-sided 8 then ironically you need a Trent playing as a pivot on that side and capable of hitting hard vertical passes into his path.

I think a good comparison would be Gerrard. When we had Alonso then he was quite happy to play as a traditional 8 or even a 10 because Alonso could get the ball to him. Without Gerrard would come deep to get on the ball and basically destroy our shape.

For me, Trent would be the same he craves getting on the ball and wants 100 touches a game. An 8 isn't that involved. It is about continually making runs looking for space and then as often as not being ignored because there is a better option.

For Trent to work as an 8 he would need to improve his ability on the half turn and we would need someone capable of pinging the ball into his feet. I think Trent as an IFB and Bradley pushed on would be better.

[tubby]

Congrats, you've steered the conversation miles away from the original point.

[wemmick]

I think Trent moving into midfield would necessitate spreading the field wider in possession than a change in shape (although the latter might facilitate the former). Our midfield 3 play very narrowly until we reach the final third when the #8s widen and sometimes overlap. I think we would probably need to spread the field in the middle third to open space for Trent as lone #6 or in a double pivot. Arsenal and City both do this for their #6s, so does Xabi and de Zerbi.  It would be risk to spread the field as much as City or Arsenal do, but it would at least limit some of Trent's limitations receiving and turning into space. The biggest issue I see with spreading the field is that we aren't committed to possession as much as we are to counter pressing. We can't spread the field wide in the defensive- or middle-third and counter press easily. Arsenal burns themselves out in the first half of matches doing that. It's a major weakness against good sides. We would have to cover too much ground playing every three days or so. I think Trent presents a problem mostly because we aren't fully committed to either counter pressing or possession. The inverted fullback role for Trent is having our cake and eating it too sometimes.     

[kop306]

i think trent will stick at right back for the rest of this season now that endo is back

he can rest in certain games and bradley will play

[jepovic]

Not sure how Trent would do as 8, none of us do, but it is weird that he hasnt even been tried there.

Hes not as skilled at dribbling as Jones, but he has an incredible ability to hit a defense splitting pass on the very first touch. With both feet, with a ball coming at almost any height. His passing really is amazing.
He doesnt need to make space for a pass.

Common footballing sense tells me that if you have a player who is great in attack but struggles in defense, you move him further up

[lionel_messias]

Not sure how Trent would do as 8, none of us do, but it is weird that he hasnt even been tried there.

Hes not as skilled at dribbling as Jones, but he has an incredible ability to hit a defense splitting pass on the very first touch. With both feet, with a ball coming at almost any height. His passing really is amazing.
He doesnt need to make space for a pass.

Common footballing sense tells me that if you have a player who is great in attack but struggles in defense, you move him further up

Yeah I mean look: Klopp has limited games left and a title to win. If Dom is out for a while, we are a bit stretched there in midfield and in Connor Bradley we have a great option at right back, so why not try this out?

Stay a bit more solid at the back and win the title. People are suggesting Trent will be worse as a right sided 8 than Ryan Gravenberch? Seems bizarre.

[Draex]

Yeah I mean look: Klopp has limited games left and a title to win. If Dom is out for a while, we are a bit stretched there in midfield and in Connor Bradley we have a great option at right back, so why not try this out?

Stay a bit more solid at the back and win the title. People are suggesting Trent will be worse as a right sided 8 than Ryan Gravenberch? Seems bizarre.

He won't, he's also a huge attacking threat, Burnley is the ideal team to try it out they try and play expansive football.

[tubby]

I'm all aboard the Trent as an 8 train, it's time.

[Eeyore]

I'm all aboard the Trent as an 8 train, it's time.

Why would you play Trent ahead of Bradley though when Bradley is a converted winger. Surely it makes more sense to play Trent as the IFB and Bradley in front of him?

[DiggerJohn]

Sorry you lost me so Trent at FB inverting and Bradley as a right winger instead of Salah?

[tubby]

Why would you play Trent ahead of Bradley though when Bradley is a converted winger. Surely it makes more sense to play Trent as the IFB and Bradley in front of him?

Because I think Trent has the potential to be an excellent 8.  I know a few disagree, but I think he can do it.

[Eeyore]

Sorry you lost me so Trent at FB inverting and Bradley as a right winger instead of Salah?

Trent inverting and Bradley playing the Henderson/Szob/Elliot role as the right-sided 8.

If you look at the skillset required for that role you want bags of energy, an ability to provide width and a player able to drop in and protect the space Trent vacates.

Pretty much what happened when Trent made his comeback as a sub against Norwich.

[Hestoic]

Because I think Trent has the potential to be an excellent 8.  I know a few disagree, but I think he can do it.

I'm with you on that.

[DiggerJohn]

Trent inverting and Bradley playing the Henderson/Szob/Elliot role as the right-sided 8.

If you look at the skillset required for that role you want bags of energy, an ability to provide width and a player able to drop in and protect the space Trent vacates.

Pretty much what happened when Trent made his comeback as a sub against Norwich.

I thought Trent played in midfield with the youth team. Was Bradley playing there? Bradley looks good at RB currently I prefer him there. I'm with Tubby would like to see Trent given a run a No8. In possession he can still drop deep to help McAllister and get on the ball like an inverted no 8 lol

[Knight]

Good teams already target him as a weak link and try to isolate him LOL. So trying him in another position might not be the best because he might be targeted when he's already targeted by literally every team we play in his current position? Even teams like Luton and Burnley got joy by taking him on 1v1.

Playing RB mitigates against his on ball weaknesses. If you move him to 6 you emphasise his on ball weaknesses AND he continues to have his off the ball issues because we still need our 6 to do a bunch of defensive work. What makes you think Trent won't have off the ball issues at 6? It'd be a surprise if a player who can't tackle at RB can suddenly do it at 6.

[MonsLibpool]

Playing RB mitigates against his on ball weaknesses. If you move him to 6 you emphasise his on ball weaknesses AND he continues to have his off the ball issues because we still need our 6 to do a bunch of defensive work. What makes you think Trent won't have off the ball issues at 6? It'd be a surprise if a player who can't tackle at RB can suddenly do it at 6.

I never suggested he should play as a 6. At what point do we accept that fullback is not for him? He'll be 26 this year.

At that age, you shouldn't be "accomodated" in a position that doesn't suit you. It's like a GK that is poor at shotstopping but great on the ball.

Our other fullbacks don't need handholding to do their jobs. That's fine for a young lad  but at 26?? His position will be one of the key things discussed before he renews his contract.

[Chris~]

I mean surely given the team and individual success it's more when are some people going to accept he is a full back when he's nearly 26 and played his near entire senior career there.

[Eeyore]

I thought Trent played in midfield with the youth team. Was Bradley playing there? Bradley looks good at RB currently I prefer him there. I'm with Tubby would like to see Trent given a run a No8. In possession he can still drop deep to help McAllister and get on the ball like an inverted no 8 lol

Some info.

Who is Conor Bradley?

Age: 17. He was born on July 9, 2003

Hometown: Castlederg, County Tyrone

Club history: Bradley began his football career with his local Castlederg club St Patrick's, whom he joined aged nine. He then moved on to Dungannon United Youth, who have a track record of producing talent capable of moving into professional football, such as Northern Ireland international Niall McGinn. It was from there he joined Liverpool on an initial scholarship deal in summer 2019.

Position: Bradley has made a home at right-back for Liverpool's Under 18s although before moving across the Irish Sea, he was recognised more as a flying right winger.



Some quotes.

LJINDERS

Speaking to The Coaches' Voice, Lijnders spoke about how he made the tactical change that was to some extent replicated by Klopp last season and moved Trent into midfield.

"Trent was incredibly passionate, a right-sided defender who pushed himself to the limits every single day," Lijnders said.

"He always wanted more, and I saw a boy who I felt needed confidence from the coaches. So, the first thing I did was make him captain, and put him in the No 6 position in midfield.

"I really believe that your best talents have to have the ball most, so I played three at the back, a diamond midfield and a front three. Ben Woodburn played as the 10, and Trent was the six.

"I saw a player who could play the final pass from almost everywhere, and as the six you have the chance to do that. Rúben Neves had been my six in all the youth teams at Porto, and from the middle Trent has that ability to reach even more positions with his passing. That’s why you see him playing inside for the first team so much now, while Mo Salah plays on the outside.

"I had one season with Trent [in the academy]. He scored goals, created goals and played passes, but he also became more responsible because of the captaincy and also the position. With time, I really saw him grow. Did I know then that he was able to go and do what he did at 18, 19 and beyond? Of course not, because nobody can know – but to see that growth as a person, a player and a leader is the most beautiful thing for somebody who works in an academy.

https://tribuna.com/en/news/liverpoolfc-2023-06-24-i-put-him-in-the-no-6-linders-looks-back-at-coaching-trent-at-liverpool-academy/?utm_source=copy

TRENT

Trent Alexander-Arnold says he chose to convert into a right-back to boost his chances of first-team action at Liverpool.

Alexander-Arnold is enjoying a superb season as one of Jurgen Klopp's ultra-attacking full-backs.

The England international has already recorded 12 assists in the Premier League this term - the same tally he registered in 2018/19, which was a record for a defender.

Alexander-Arnold has been tipped for a midfield role in the future, and the 21-year-old has revealed that he was deployed in the engine room for much of his time in Liverpool's academy.

"Who decided the position change? It was me, Neil Critchley and Alex Inglethorpe," he told BBC Sport.

"Critch was my under-18 manager and Alex was head of the academy. I wanted to get into the first team as soon as possible, and we decided that was the most straightforward route.

"It was difficult [to adjust] because when you play higher up you are very rarely isolated in a defensive situation. That was the strangest thing - being one-on-one with someone out wide, with no-one to help.

"I've always enjoyed right-back as there is a lot more freedom going forward. It's a lot more chaotic in the middle.

"I probably get more of the ball now than I did when I was in midfield. It's just about trying to influence the game as much as possible from out there.

"Going into a game I don't play to make the full-back position 'sexy'. I just think a lot of people underestimate how important the full-back position is. It's vital in the sense you've got to be up and down the pitch, creating things but also defending.

"I just go out there and try to make the team win - whether that means I'm playing 'sexy' football or not."


KLOPP

And speaking ahead of Liverpool's Sky Sports Super Sunday clash against Leeds, Klopp said he thinks Southgate got it wrong in more ways than one against Andorra.

"In this game, in a game where England are that dominant for example, or that we are that dominant that Trent could play in midfield, I would rather he was the six than in this case the eight," said Klopp.

"That is possible but why would you make the best right-back in the world a midfielder? I don't understand that really.

[MonsLibpool]

I mean surely given the team and individual success it's more when are some people going to accept he is a full back when he's nearly 26 and played his near entire senior career there.

If you work as a carpenter for 6 years, you're expected to be grounded in the basics of carpentry.  He has played as a fullback for years and he still struggles at the basics and needs handholding.  The experience should be showing at the age of 26.

[thaddeus]

If you work as a carpenter for 6 years, you're expected to be grounded in the basics of carpentry.  He has played as a fullback for years and he still struggles at the basics and needs handholding.  The experience should be showing at the age of 26.

What if you're a carpenter that creates the most beautiful pieces of bespoke furniture but can't do a tongue and groove joint?

Horses for courses.  When we don't have the ball I think Trent has a fair proportion of his focus on scanning for attacking transition opportunities.  I'm sure he could focus solely on defending and be better at it as a result but we'd lose something from our game.

[Pistolero]

What if you're a carpenter that creates the most beautiful pieces of bespoke furniture but can't do a tongue and groove joint?

...then you're not really a carpenter

[HeartAndSoul]

I think with Szobo out injured, we might actually see him in that right centre mid position in some games over the next couple of weeks. He’ll still need to help Bradley a lot if he plays there so he’ll need to burst a gut to get back when we lose possession.

[DiggerJohn]

Some info.

Who is Conor Bradley?

Age: 17. He was born on July 9, 2003

Hometown: Castlederg, County Tyrone

Club history: Bradley began his football career with his local Castlederg club St Patrick's, whom he joined aged nine. He then moved on to Dungannon United Youth, who have a track record of producing talent capable of moving into professional football, such as Northern Ireland international Niall McGinn. It was from there he joined Liverpool on an initial scholarship deal in summer 2019.

Position: Bradley has made a home at right-back for Liverpool's Under 18s although before moving across the Irish Sea, he was recognised more as a flying right winger.



Some quotes.

LJINDERS

Speaking to The Coaches' Voice, Lijnders spoke about how he made the tactical change that was to some extent replicated by Klopp last season and moved Trent into midfield.

"Trent was incredibly passionate, a right-sided defender who pushed himself to the limits every single day," Lijnders said.

"He always wanted more, and I saw a boy who I felt needed confidence from the coaches. So, the first thing I did was make him captain, and put him in the No 6 position in midfield.

"I really believe that your best talents have to have the ball most, so I played three at the back, a diamond midfield and a front three. Ben Woodburn played as the 10, and Trent was the six.

"I saw a player who could play the final pass from almost everywhere, and as the six you have the chance to do that. Rúben Neves had been my six in all the youth teams at Porto, and from the middle Trent has that ability to reach even more positions with his passing. That’s why you see him playing inside for the first team so much now, while Mo Salah plays on the outside.

"I had one season with Trent [in the academy]. He scored goals, created goals and played passes, but he also became more responsible because of the captaincy and also the position. With time, I really saw him grow. Did I know then that he was able to go and do what he did at 18, 19 and beyond? Of course not, because nobody can know – but to see that growth as a person, a player and a leader is the most beautiful thing for somebody who works in an academy.

https://tribuna.com/en/news/liverpoolfc-2023-06-24-i-put-him-in-the-no-6-linders-looks-back-at-coaching-trent-at-liverpool-academy/?utm_source=copy

TRENT

Trent Alexander-Arnold says he chose to convert into a right-back to boost his chances of first-team action at Liverpool.

Alexander-Arnold is enjoying a superb season as one of Jurgen Klopp's ultra-attacking full-backs.

The England international has already recorded 12 assists in the Premier League this term - the same tally he registered in 2018/19, which was a record for a defender.

Alexander-Arnold has been tipped for a midfield role in the future, and the 21-year-old has revealed that he was deployed in the engine room for much of his time in Liverpool's academy.

"Who decided the position change? It was me, Neil Critchley and Alex Inglethorpe," he told BBC Sport.

"Critch was my under-18 manager and Alex was head of the academy. I wanted to get into the first team as soon as possible, and we decided that was the most straightforward route.

"It was difficult [to adjust] because when you play higher up you are very rarely isolated in a defensive situation. That was the strangest thing - being one-on-one with someone out wide, with no-one to help.

"I've always enjoyed right-back as there is a lot more freedom going forward. It's a lot more chaotic in the middle.

"I probably get more of the ball now than I did when I was in midfield. It's just about trying to influence the game as much as possible from out there.

"Going into a game I don't play to make the full-back position 'sexy'. I just think a lot of people underestimate how important the full-back position is. It's vital in the sense you've got to be up and down the pitch, creating things but also defending.

"I just go out there and try to make the team win - whether that means I'm playing 'sexy' football or not."


KLOPP

And speaking ahead of Liverpool's Sky Sports Super Sunday clash against Leeds, Klopp said he thinks Southgate got it wrong in more ways than one against Andorra.

"In this game, in a game where England are that dominant for example, or that we are that dominant that Trent could play in midfield, I would rather he was the six than in this case the eight," said Klopp.

"That is possible but why would you make the best right-back in the world a midfielder? I don't understand that really.

Can't match that, I'm a couple of lines guy. But thanks for the info

[Qston]

Can't match what, I'm a couple of lines guy. But thanks for the info

I stopped at "Born 2003". It just reminded me of my own mortality !

[thaddeus]

...then you're not really a carpenter

Or maybe you've reinvented carpentry 

[DiggerJohn]

I stopped at "Born 2003". It just reminded me of my own mortality !

I read it all its the nerd in me wanting to come out

[Knight]

I never suggested he should play as a 6. At what point do we accept that fullback is not for him? He'll be 26 this year.

At that age, you shouldn't be "accomodated" in a position that doesn't suit you. It's like a GK that is poor at shotstopping but great on the ball.

Our other fullbacks don't need handholding to do their jobs. That's fine for a young lad  but at 26?? His position will be one of the key things discussed before he renews his contract.

Player wins everything there is to win for the club from right back, revolutonises what can be done from right back. RAWK poster asks when we’ll accept he’s not a right back.

As for accommodating him. We’d be doing a heck of a lot more accommodating of him as an 8 than as a RB.

[Draex]

Player wins everything there is to win for the club from right back, revolutonises what can be done from right back. RAWK poster asks when we’ll accept he’s not a right back.

As for accommodating him. We’d be doing a heck of a lot more accommodating of him as an 8 than as a RB.

It's fair to say Trent's defending has got progressively worse over the last few years.

I'm sure people will point out mitigations but ultimately that right channel is targetted by pretty much every single opponent manager.

[Knight]

It's fair to say Trent's defending has got progressively worse over the last few years.

I'm sure people will point out mitigations but ultimately that right channel is targetted by pretty much every single opponent manager.

Agreed. But the solution cannot be to move him to a position where he simply doesn’t have the skill set to flourish like he can flourish from RB. On paper he’s perfect as a player who’ll dominate the right flank ( and potentially invert too). He’s not, on paper, an 8 who’ll have to receive on the half turn and be capable of beating pressure. He’s a player who wants the play in front of him. If he can’t defend well enough to be our RB then he’s going to need to sit on the bench until he gets back what he once had.

[Draex]

Agreed. But the solution cannot be to move him to a position where he simply doesn’t have the skill set to flourish like he can flourish from RB. On paper he’s perfect as a player who’ll dominate the right flank ( and potentially invert too). He’s not, on paper, an 8 who’ll have to receive on the half turn and be capable of beating pressure. He’s a player who wants the play in front of him. If he can’t defend well enough to be our RB then he’s going to need to sit on the bench until he gets back what he once had.

What's your solution then?

Mac is a better 6 than him
Szobo is a better 8 than him
Bradley is currently outperforming him (on a tiny sample size) defensively and offensively as a right back.

Which sounds mad to write but there we are.

[Eeyore]

What's your solution then?

Mac is a better 6 than him
Szobo is a better 8 than him
Bradley is currently outperforming him (on a tiny sample size) defensively and offensively as a right back.

Which sounds mad to write but there we are.

No one is outperforming as a an inverted full back though. So maybe play him in the position that has coincided with us going from average to excellent over the last year.

[Draex]

No one is outperforming as a an inverted full back though. So maybe play him in the position that has coincided with us going from average to excellent over the last year.

True, especially with Robbo back.

I still maintain he can improve his defending

[HeartAndSoul]

Even if he’s inverting he’s still expected to defend the right hand side when we don’t have possession. Konate is great at covering the 2 positions in the role he’s playing but teams still heavily target that right hand side as that’s where most of the space comes from.

[nerdster4]

It’s important to note that Trent was incredible before his injury and I am not convinced that he did much wrong against Arsenal . He was forced to play much longer than he would have had Bradley not been
Out . The Arsenal result is purely related to the freak second goal .

Bradley who is performing miraculously was involved in Willian’s goal and was part of the defence which conceded two to Norwich at home . I find the idea that we are ready to make Trent surplus because we have a shiny new toy rediculous. Also we have a midfield crisis. Three out , two not ready to start matches . If anyone is able to make full use of Trent’s assets and protect him as an asset for our club , it’s klopp

[Garlic Red]

Playing RB mitigates against his on ball weaknesses. If you move him to 6 you emphasise his on ball weaknesses AND he continues to have his off the ball issues because we still need our 6 to do a bunch of defensive work. What makes you think Trent won't have off the ball issues at 6? It'd be a surprise if a player who can't tackle at RB can suddenly do it at 6.

What are his on ball weaknesses? I think back to the game he really went fully inverted - the Arsenal 2-2 at Anfield last season - and he didn’t have any issues picking the ball up essentially in the Pirlo role. I think you’re guilty of overthinking it because he occasionally gets caught with his back to goal, a lot of midfielders tend to get caught with their back to goal, it’s why having centre halves that look to receive bounce passes and progress forwards is so important. Trent would be fine playing any of the roles in our midfield, it might require some adjustments elsewhere but I’d be pretty confident he could play the left 8 like Thiago did or the right 8 not a million miles off how he plays his current inverted position. The deeper 6 role would be a breeze against 75% of premier league sides.

[Eeyore]

What are his on ball weaknesses? I think back to the game he really went fully inverted - the Arsenal 2-2 at Anfield last season - and he didn’t have any issues picking the ball up essentially in the Pirlo role. I think you’re guilty of overthinking it because he occasionally gets caught with his back to goal, a lot of midfielders tend to get caught with their back to goal, it’s why having centre halves that look to receive bounce passes and progress forwards is so important. Trent would be fine playing any of the roles in our midfield, it might require some adjustments elsewhere but I’d be pretty confident he could play the left 8 like Thiago did or the right 8 not a million miles off how he plays his current inverted position. The deeper 6 role would be a breeze against 75% of premier league sides.

The evidence is that in Seven and a half years Klopp has never started Trent as a six or as an 8. Ljinders who had him in the under-age groups used him as a six and not an eight.

Even Southgate has only used him very sparingly against the dross as a midfield player.

Trent is truly exceptional as a full-back or even better as a hybrid full-back/auxiliary six. Even when both Trent and Bradley were both on the pitch against Norwich then Bradley went ahead of Trent on the right until McConnell got injured.