Topic: Most Overrated Footballers?

[PoetryInMotion]

Ronaldinho and Ronaldo (Brazil) were both elite players.

For different reasons they didn’t have a career with a peak that extended from the start of their career until the end. Injuries stunted Ronaldo. Lifestyle Ronaldinho (in some ways like Maradonna). Ronaldo was unreal from about 18 until the injury at Inter. Ronaldinho changed and re-established Barcelona as much as anyone after a really poor 3-4 years, where Rivaldo carried them. Ronaldinho flattered to receive a bit either side of his Barcelona career.

Zidane was different but did have peaks and troughs in his career. There were certainly seasons at Juventus where his impact was minimal given his immense skill.

The above is not to denigrate any of the players. Far from it. They were elite players and rightly thought of as greats of the game.

However they didn’t have the relentless brilliance of a Messi or Cristian Ronaldo. None of them racked up 10+ seasons of elite performance. Maybe that’s a reflection of current professionalism of the players and/or a sign of the talent disparity between teams domestically now. But in terms of peak performance and longevity then Messi and C.Ronaldo are unparalleled in last 40 years of the game.

Fair post I would say. They were great, but they weren't as consistent as Messi and C. Ronaldo. Those two were freaks.

[Keith Lard]

Ronaldinho and Ronaldo (Brazil) were both elite players.

For different reasons they didn’t have a career with a peak that extended from the start of their career until the end. Injuries stunted Ronaldo. Lifestyle Ronaldinho (in some ways like Maradonna). Ronaldo was unreal from about 18 until the injury at Inter. Ronaldinho changed and re-established Barcelona as much as anyone after a really poor 3-4 years, where Rivaldo carried them. Ronaldinho flattered to receive a bit either side of his Barcelona career.

Zidane was different but did have peaks and troughs in his career. There were certainly seasons at Juventus where his impact was minimal given his immense skill.

The above is not to denigrate any of the players. Far from it. They were elite players and rightly thought of as greats of the game.

However they didn’t have the relentless brilliance of a Messi or Cristian Ronaldo. None of them racked up 10+ seasons of elite performance. Maybe that’s a reflection of current professionalism of the players and/or a sign of the talent disparity between teams domestically now. But in terms of peak performance and longevity then Messi and C.Ronaldo are unparalleled in last 40 years of the game.

Ronaldinho was not in the same league as Ronaldo fenomeno ... Ronaldo was the most amazing combo of dribbling, beautiful touch and raw power the game has ever seen. In fact, I always think peak Ronaldo fenomeno was the best player of all time alongside Messi. They're the two players for me that, at their very peak, had me gasping.

[PoetryInMotion]

He was a good player was Agger.

Could have been a very good player with better durability.

Even then though he’d have not been best in PL, never mind in world football at a time when Nesta, Thiago Silva, Ferdinand, Chiellini, Terry, Vidic, Puyol, Ramos were knocking about. Even when fit for prolonged periods he wasn’t at that level. Probably the rung below.

I was lucky enough to witness the last 5-6 seasons of Alan Hansen and he’d easily have mixed it with the likes of Nesta et al. Literally no comparison in his level versus Agger’s absolute peak.

Our best CBs have been Hansen and Van Dijk. Van Dijk's peak was probably better than Hansen's, but he needs two-three more years to eclipse him overall imo. My third would be Sami Hyypia.

[Keith Lard]

Fair post I would say. They were great, but they weren't as consistent as Messi and C. Ronaldo. Those two were freaks.

C. Ronaldo was just a bit ugly to watch and a bit of a tap in merchant at times. He's the guy that would do anything to juice up his stats. Still an outrageously good player and up there with the very best. But, despite the crazy stats, will always be a rung below Messi. To be at the ultimate tier, you have to give fans of all colours pure joy and consistent gasp moments. The only think about C. Ronaldo that had me gasping were his raw stats and ability to be the most annoying, greasy egotistical gimp on the field.

[Coolie High]

Ok, I’ll disgust everyone in here further.

I think Zidane was a touch overrated too. Roberto Baggio was better (albeit completely different type of player of course … more of a pound for pound comparison).

I can’t disagree with that, the Roberto Baggio part.

[PoetryInMotion]

C. Ronaldo was just a bit ugly to watch and a bit of a tap in merchant at times. He's the guy that would do anything to juice up his stats. Still an outrageously good player and up there with the very best. But, despite the crazy stats, will always be a rung below Messi. To be at the ultimate tier, you have to give fans of all colours pure joy and consistent gasp moments. The only think about C. Ronaldo that had me gasping were his raw stats and ability to be the most annoying, greasy egotistical gimp on the field.

I agree that he is below Messi. Messi, along with being a great goal-scorer, and great dribbler, was also an elite playmaker. The way he dribbled and combined with his teammates at his peak was a joy to watch.

[Keith Lard]

This thread has me nostalgic and looking over old clips of the game. Without wanting to derail the thread, VAR would have ruined the raw beauty of so many of those clips.

Ahh, I miss the graininess. The lack of coverage made us all dream more and savour the special moments more. The difficulty to get to a destination for a game and the lack of technology making the destination feel more unknown (no hotel or restaurant reviews, no satnav) made it even more of a mystical, exciting experience.

A completely rose tinted specs post of course

[Keith Lard]

I agree that he is below Messi. Messi, along with being a great goal-scorer, and great dribbler, was also an elite playmaker. The way he dribbled and combined with his teammates at his peak was a joy to watch.

I agree - his playmaking skills always reminded me of Pablo Aimar (a very underrated player)

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

I agree - his playmaking skills always reminded me of Pablo Aimar (a very underrated player)

Messi's idol growing up was Aimar, so  no surprise there.
Aimar's pace, agility was pretty much kicked out of him, simply didn't build up the strength and aggression to protect himself. If he came through a generation later he could've showcased more for longer. Lovely player.

[Jookie]

Our best CBs have been Hansen and Van Dijk. Van Dijk's peak was probably better than Hansen's, but he needs two-three more years to eclipse him overall imo. My third would be Sami Hyypia.

Hansen and VvD are miles above others Liverpool centre backs I’ve seen.

I’d probably say Matip, Hyppia and Carragher were next best, in no particular order. Probably Ruddock, Agger, Skrtel, Lovren. Gomez and Konate somewhere below that. Konate and Gomez could easily move above that in the next few years. In fact I’d expect at least 1 of the to be pushing for the 3rd best Liverpool CB I’ve seen in the next 3-4 seasons.

[King_doggerel]

Hansen and VvD are miles above others Liverpool centre backs I’ve seen.

I’d probably say Matip, Hyppia and Carragher were next best, in no particular order. Probably Ruddock, Agger, Skrtel, Lovren. Gomez and Konate somewhere below that. Konate and Gomez could easily move above that in the next few years. In fact I’d expect at least 1 of the to be pushing for the 3rd best Liverpool CB I’ve seen in the next 3-4 seasons.

Matip, Hyppia, Gomez, Konate, Lovren next best with Sami top of that list.

Carra with the rest. He's overrated. Not to say he wasn't good, but he was carried a bit by Sami.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Nah, no way Carra's behind Lovren, and I like Lovren. I was too young to see much of Hansen so VVD's a clear number one for me and Hyypia number two, then Matip, Agger, Carra, Henchoz and Mark Wright after that, Gomez and Konate knocking on the door. Lovren, like Skrtel, could be great on his day but too inconsistent.

[Jookie]

Matip, Hyppia, Gomez, Konate, Lovren next best with Sami top of that list.

Carra with the rest. He's overrated. Not to say he wasn't good, but he was carried a bit by Sami.

I disagree on Carragher.

I think his time as a pundit has tainted things for some. Between 2005-07 he was a brilliant centre half, though without the physical attributes or ball playing skills to hit the levels of Ferdinand and others.

Hyppia was a brilliant centre back from about 1999-2005. In 99 he was exactly what we needed after a decade of pretend hard men (eg Ruddock) or relatively aerially weak centre backs (Babb, Matteo, Kvarme, Scales etc..). A ball playing centre back who was immense in the air. Solved a massive weakness almost immediately. Houllier’s system plus Henchoz and Sami was a dream match. Playing deep helped their lack of pace.

Sami proved so much better than Henchoz through his ability to play a higher line under Benitez. His positioning was so good. Could Hyppia play under Klopp in this system? I’m not sure he’d be able to. That doesn’t make him any less of a player but it probably highlights the weaknesses he has. I think Carragher’s slightly better pace and experience in operating 1v1 in wide areas (through his full back experience)  may make him more suited to current high level football and defending.

[Jookie]

Nah, no way Carra's behind Lovren, and I like Lovren. I was too young to see much of Hansen so VVD's a clear number one for me and Hyypia number two, then Matip, Agger, Carra, Henchoz and Mark Wright after that, Gomez and Konate knocking on the door. Lovren, like Skrtel, could be great on his day but too inconsistent.

Lovren and Skrtel were better centre backs than Henchoz. Henchoz was very good in a system that played to his strengths. Once outside a deep back line his weaknesses were exposed.

When Skrtel played under Kenny and Clarke we played with a much deeper back line. Skrtel and Agger were both excellent that season because the system made their job so much easier. They both did well in more challenging systems too.

I think Wright is a decent shout. Was the only half decent centre back we had between Hansen and Hyppia/Henchoz.

[Statto Red]

Henchoz, was great as an emergancy keeper.

[God's Left Peg]

Hansen and VvD are miles above others Liverpool centre backs I’ve seen.

I’d probably say Matip, Hyppia and Carragher were next best, in no particular order. Probably Ruddock, Agger, Skrtel, Lovren. Gomez and Konate somewhere below that. Konate and Gomez could easily move above that in the next few years. In fact I’d expect at least 1 of the to be pushing for the 3rd best Liverpool CB I’ve seen in the next 3-4 seasons.

Ruddock?

[Jookie]

Henchoz, was great as an emergancy keeper.

He certainty was.

For about 3 seasons he was really good for what we needed. Drop off of Houlliers Liverpool sort of started about the same time Henchoz had injury issues. That in some ways shows his value.  Centre back replacements were poor as well- including a season with Biscan at centre back.

It was 3 excellent seasons of Henchoz in 1 particular system which asked certain things of the defenders and minimised certain weaknesses. Beyond those 3 years he didn’t play that regularly for Liverpool.

[Jookie]

Ruddock?

Massively under rated.

Hard man who could play a bit. Kept otter players in check and helped maintain a hard working and professional culture at the club. Just what we needed with a team full of impressionable but misguided talented youngsters and a manager with no backbone.

[Keith Lard]

Messi's idol growing up was Aimar, so  no surprise there.
Aimar's pace, agility was pretty much kicked out of him, simply didn't build up the strength and aggression to protect himself. If he came through a generation later he could've showcased more for longer. Lovely player.

Never knew that. Very interesting. I suppose with Aimar being an Argie and older than Messi, it makes sense.

I’ll always remember that game when we went to the Mestalla and Benitez’s Valencia destroyed us. I went away from that game in admiration of that Valencia team and Aimar in particular.

[Keith Lard]

Nah, no way Carra's behind Lovren, and I like Lovren. I was too young to see much of Hansen so VVD's a clear number one for me and Hyypia number two, then Matip, Agger, Carra, Henchoz and Mark Wright after that, Gomez and Konate knocking on the door. Lovren, like Skrtel, could be great on his day but too inconsistent.

Agree, Carragher was definitely better than Lovren. Carragher had superb concentration and played percentages very well. I actually think he would even get in this Klopp team as a rotated centre back. He’d probably be trained to play the ball a bit more at the back whilst still playing percentages where needed. More than just a solid player.

[TepidT2O]

Massively under rated.

Hard man who could play a bit. Kept otter players in check and helped maintain a hard working and professional culture at the club. Just what we needed with a team full of impressionable but misguided talented youngsters and a manager with no backbone.

He could play a lot.  His long passing was superb, he could step out form the back, pass any style and was good in the air.

Sadly he was also rash, lacked any sense of self discipline, was lazy and a big time Charlie.

So, he had the talent, but wasted it.

[Samie]

To be "overrated" you have to be rated in the first place.

Also the term "Overrated" ain't a bad thing is it if  you think about it?

[elbow]

Massively under rated.

Hard man who could play a bit. Kept otter players in check and helped maintain a hard working and professional culture at the club. Just what we needed with a team full of impressionable but misguided talented youngsters and a manager with no backbone.

 

[darragh85]

Yea razor ruddock was in a par with Alessandro Nesta ability wise. A top pro who lead by example. Sadly, Injury and obesity curtailed him massively

[CHOPPER]

Wank Sebastian Veron.

[TomDcs]

Wank Sebastian Veron.

I’ll pass thanks

[CHOPPER]

He couldn’t

[Historical Fool]

Agree, Carragher was definitely better than Lovren. Carragher had superb concentration and played percentages very well. I actually think he would even get in this Klopp team as a rotated centre back. He’d probably be trained to play the ball a bit more at the back whilst still playing percentages where needed. More than just a solid player.

For a period Lovren was genuinely world-class, part of the top two and three central defensive partnerships in World Football.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

For a period Lovren was genuinely world-class, part of the top two and three central defensive partnerships in World Football.

He was?

[De La Goal]

Mark Lawrenson being severely under-rated - more like totally forgotten - in all the discussion about LFC centre backs. He was the other half of the greatest defensive partnership of the 1980s.

[Nogg3000]

Always wonder if Carragher had postponed retirement for 1 more season if his organisation and influence would have shored up our defence in 2013 and allowed us to win the league. Hey-ho, will never know.

[Chakan]

Always wonder if Carragher had postponed retirement for 1 more season if his organisation and influence would have shored up our defence in 2013 and allowed us to win the league. Hey-ho, will never know.

No. There debate settled.

[semit5]

Yea razor ruddock was in a par with Alessandro Nesta ability wise. A top pro who lead by example. Sadly, Injury and obesity curtailed him massively

Was he really a top pro if he couldn’t keep fit and off the booze?

[Flaccido Dongingo]

Was he really a top pro if he couldn’t keep fit and off the booze?

The drink and drugs were a crutch for his personal issues, doesn't matter how professional you are if you've got mental health issues, and back then there wasn't any support network like there is now.

[RayPhilAlan]

Mark Lawrenson being severely under-rated - more like totally forgotten - in all the discussion about LFC centre backs. He was the other half of the greatest defensive partnership of the 1980s.

Agreed. People including Hansen must have also seen Lawro playing. While the likes of Matip, Hyypia and Carra were genuinely excellent at times, it's VvD, Hansen and Lawro as the top 3 for me.
The only other name to throw into the mix is Crazy Horse. Those who were a bit older than me - where does he fit in the pantheon?

[Terry de Niro]

Agreed. People including Hansen must have also seen Lawro playing. While the likes of Matip, Hyypia and Carra were genuinely excellent at times, it's VvD, Hansen and Lawro as the top 3 for me.
The only other name to throw into the mix is Crazy Horse. Those who were a bit older than me - where does he fit in the pantheon?

Originally had spells as a Left Half/midfielder and played at left-back for club and Country.
Totally excelled as a ball-playing center-back, but could also mix it up when it came to the rough stuff.
He And Phil Thompson were superb together.

[slaphead]

Ronaldinho was not in the same league as Ronaldo fenomeno ... Ronaldo was the most amazing combo of dribbling, beautiful touch and raw power the game has ever seen. In fact, I always think peak Ronaldo fenomeno was the best player of all time alongside Messi. They're the two players for me that, at their very peak, had me gasping.

He was absolutely frightening. Such a shame he had his injuries because he could have been the best of the lot. I used to feel sorry for keepers when he was one on one with them. He never ever missed, and usually made the keeper look silly. Absolute genius

[phil236849]

Agreed. People including Hansen must have also seen Lawro playing. While the likes of Matip, Hyypia and Carra were genuinely excellent at times, it's VvD, Hansen and Lawro as the top 3 for me.
The only other name to throw into the mix is Crazy Horse. Those who were a bit older than me - where does he fit in the pantheon?

I was starting to despair! Lawro was gold and very versatile too. 
Even Gary Gillespie is in the running before various mentioned here

[Statto Red]

Ronaldinho was not in the same league as Ronaldo fenomeno ... Ronaldo was the most amazing combo of dribbling, beautiful touch and raw power the game has ever seen. In fact, I always think peak Ronaldo fenomeno was the best player of all time alongside Messi. They're the two players for me that, at their very peak, had me gasping.

Remember the time Ronaldo single handily knocked United out of the champions league with a hat trick at OT, in spite of Real's defence, Ronaldo was unstoppable.

 

[Yorkykopite]

Top three are Hansen-Virgil-Lawrenson (in no particular order). Elite centre backs for any era.

Emlyn-Thommo-Smith-Gillespie-Agger-Matip can be talked about in the same conversation too.

I suspect that Konate might join that company. Joe Gomez too possibly.

I've left Hyypia out. Just. But no one else, although Mark Wright could have been a fine Liverpool defender if he'd found the right coach.