Author Topic: Knife Crime  (Read 3458 times)

Offline west_london_red

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Knife Crime
« on: March 8, 2019, 07:06:47 pm »
What’s causing it, what can be done to stop it?
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Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #1 on: March 8, 2019, 07:10:33 pm »
Knives mainly.

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #2 on: March 8, 2019, 07:36:26 pm »
Knives don’t kill people, people kill people.

Offline BoRed

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #3 on: March 8, 2019, 07:52:06 pm »
It's Corbyn, innit. It'll stop when he's gone.

Offline FiSh77

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #4 on: March 8, 2019, 07:52:08 pm »
No idea about knife crime but this is a crime to knives


Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #5 on: March 8, 2019, 08:02:12 pm »
It’s lack of funding for social support issues.

The red herring is that it’s police funding and police numbers.  There is no correlation between cuts police numbers and knife crime.

The solution as always is that prevention is better than cure.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #6 on: March 8, 2019, 08:19:10 pm »
It’s lack of funding for social support issues.

The red herring is that it’s police funding and police numbers.  There is no correlation between cuts police numbers and knife crime.

The solution as always is that prevention is better than cure.

Agree, the need for greater police numbers are a symptoms rather then a cause.

For me what’s telling (and we’ve seen the damage this causes when it comes to things like grooming) is that no one is talking about race. Whenever they show pictures of the victims they are overwhelmingly Black or Asian, even more so obviously when you look at it in terms of proportion to the population, which then leads to the social and economic issues that these communities experience. That’s nothing new obviously, but if you accept Austerity hit the poorest hardest for me it’s hard to look past this being the cause?
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #7 on: March 8, 2019, 08:19:15 pm »
It’s lack of funding for social support issues.

The red herring is that it’s police funding and police numbers.  There is no correlation between cuts police numbers and knife crime.

The solution as always is that prevention is better than cure.

I very much anyone has said that police cuts only are the cause. But there is a problem now with police resourcing that is needed to address the problem right now.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #8 on: March 8, 2019, 08:37:50 pm »
I’m also concerned that school exclusions have been blamed for the rise in knife crime. It’s utter rubbish.

Students get excluded from school because they are violent, because they bring weapons into school.  Both the knife crime and the exclusions are symptoms of the same problem.  However some have tried to suggest causation between the two.
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Offline Riquende

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #9 on: March 8, 2019, 08:44:42 pm »
I work in a Luton high school and have seen several assemblies a year on the effects of carrying knives, gangs, etc. We have PCSOs come in. We have videos playing of interviews with convicted murderers who break down crying saying they "were just carrying for my own protection" and "never thought it would end up like that". And after these have been shown, I see some of the kids gleefully pretending to stab each other. We had a local high profile killing last year where 4 of our ex-students, just 18 years old, went down for murder because they thought someone they were confronting was reaching for a blade and so drew theirs first. Occasionally a knife is found on a student in school and they are permamently exluded.

I just don't know where the impetus for arms is coming from... but what I have observed in the last few years is that culture in general is trending more towards direct competition and confrontation. TV programs now seem to be mostly reality shows where it's a struggle to be seen as the best at whatever. Popular music genres endlessly feature 'feuds' that encourage fans of the artists to take sides. You even had recently those two youtube guys decide to stage a full on boxing match, for whatever reason. I read that a catwalk model killed another one over their relative success, all apparently originating from a tweet.

Is social media part of the problem? When I was a kid we could 'switch off' easily. But the youth these days are almost permanently connected to their friendship circles and messaging platforms, and aren't getting that downtime to cool off and gain perspective. Rampant inequality doesn't help either, my school is in a pretty deprived area and I'm aware that so many of the kids I speak to won't ever have the same opportunities I got. I think a lot of the kids are drawn to gangs because they are coming to realise that they can't get the levels of extreme wealth that are now paraded across the internet through education and becoming a member of 'civilised society'.

Sorry for the ramble, I've had a few discussions on this recently and I'm not sure my thoughts are entirely in order yet...
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #10 on: March 8, 2019, 09:31:00 pm »
It's been mentioned a lot in the news, but there is a lot to be learnt from what was done in Glasgow. 15 years ago Glasgow was the knife crime capital of the world, but it has reduced massively since then. What changed? The police and other authorities started to treat it as a public health issue, rather than just as criminality. There was a carrot and stick approach - sentences for carrying knives were increased a lot, but there was also an increased effort in tackling the issues that caused kids to turn to gang violence. Investment in social programs etc.

It does take a long time to take effect though, but it does seem like London, and other places have noticed the success we have had in Glasgow, and trying to learn from it.

Offline -Willo-

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #11 on: March 8, 2019, 09:33:17 pm »
The more people who carry knives, the more people feel the need to carry knives, if that makes sense?

If I'm in a gang and I'm hearing about all these knife attacks, I now feel like I need to defend myself a little bit more, so I then carry a knife myself, and it just escalates?

Deeneys point on social media was fantastic I thought - 20 years ago you'd have had a fight and thats it, nowadays everything is on instagram/twitter/facebook in 2 mins, so you can't afford to be humiliated as a kid anymore, as everyone in your local area knows about it in 10 seconds, with video evidence to back it up.

It must be tough.

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #12 on: March 9, 2019, 09:08:29 am »
Stab someone and you can be in our gang :/

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #13 on: March 9, 2019, 09:50:47 am »
It's been mentioned a lot in the news, but there is a lot to be learnt from what was done in Glasgow. 15 years ago Glasgow was the knife crime capital of the world, but it has reduced massively since then. What changed? The police and other authorities started to treat it as a public health issue, rather than just as criminality. There was a carrot and stick approach - sentences for carrying knives were increased a lot, but there was also an increased effort in tackling the issues that caused kids to turn to gang violence. Investment in social programs etc.

It does take a long time to take effect though, but it does seem like London, and other places have noticed the success we have had in Glasgow, and trying to learn from it.

I think part of the issue was that until recently it being politicised ie it was just a problem in London and it was Sadiq Khan’s fault. At least now it’s being seen more of a national problem, but yes we haven’t reached this position overnight and it won’t be fixed overnight either, it will take years to get there.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #14 on: March 9, 2019, 11:51:40 am »
I think part of the issue was that until recently it being politicised ie it was just a problem in London and it was Sadiq Khan’s fault. At least now it’s being seen more of a national problem, but yes we haven’t reached this position overnight and it won’t be fixed overnight either, it will take years to get there.

It wouldn't be the only crime issue portrayed that way. I remember all the scooter-gang stuff in London making it all over the national news as this huge problem, with the Met being given greater powers to tackle it.

Meanwhile we have been dealing for years with big groups of lads bombing round on stolen scramblers and quadbikes, wheelieing through red lights and all the rest of it, with a lot of them also being linked to gang crimes. 

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #15 on: March 9, 2019, 11:58:38 am »
How Scotland stemmed the tide of knife crime

Home Secretary Sajid Javid has condemned the "senseless violence" that has seen a rise in the number of teenagers being stabbed to death across the UK.

In London, a Violence Reduction Unit is now up and running in a bid to tackle the number of teenagers dying as a result of knife crime. It is based on a ground-breaking approach used in Scotland.

Scotland's Violence Reduction Unit (VRU) was set up to stem the tide of knife crime which saw Glasgow become Europe's murder capital.

From its formation in 2005 the VRU proposed a fresh approach to tackling the problem.

Its key message was that gang-related stabbings and slashings were not just a policing issue but a public health issue. The unit's motto was a simple one: "Violence is preventable, not inevitable."

In 2004/05 there were 137 homicides (which include murder and culpable homicide figures) in Scotland - in Glasgow, there were 40 cases alone, double the national rate.

By 2016/17 the number had more than halved to 62.

Last year this had reduced by a further three to 59. A sharp instrument was the main method of killing for 34 (58%) of those cases and all but one of them involved a knife.

This homicide figure was the joint lowest number of recorded homicide cases for a single 12-month period since 1976.

Over the years the VRU has worked closely with partners in the NHS, education and social work.

It has stressed the importance of positive role models and its projects have been shaped by statistics.

Former director John Carnochan once showed me a jagged graph of violent crime in Glasgow. It included many spikes but at one point it plummeted dramatically.

Mr Carnochan explained: "That was Valentine's Day."

Love may virtually halt violence once a year but other factors have helped Glasgow shed its unwanted reputation as No Mean City.

BBC Scotland looks at five key aspects of the VRU's work.

Gangs
Glasgow's gang culture was highlighted in the 1960s when singer Frankie Vaughan visited Easterhouse to speak to young people.

He famously convinced rival leaders to shake hands and give up their weapons.

Fast forward four decades and the then Strathclyde Police Chief Constable Sir Stephen House invited teenagers from some of the most deprived areas of the city to Glasgow Sheriff Court.

The symbolism was powerful as Sir Stephen urged them to renounce violence or risk returning to the court for real.

The VRU made bold statements to young people in simple, no nonsense terms. For example, chalk outlines of a body and a knife once appeared in 15 areas identified as gang trouble spots.

Officers also proactively visited suspected gang members, targeted their meeting places and monitored their activity on early social networking sites, such as Bebo.

US influence
The VRU sought inspiration from across the Atlantic in its bid to make Glasgow's streets safer.

Within two years of implementing Operation Ceasefire in 1995, Boston had reduced violent crime by about 50%.

In 2009 the VRU launched the Community Initiative to Reduce Violence (CIRV). It was designed to offer young people an alterative to gang membership, such as youth clubs, as well as the prospect of training and work.

Former offenders were drafted in to share their experiences with the next generation.

In 2011 police said the CIRV had resulted in a 50% reduction in violent offending by those taking part.

Even among gang members who refused to participate, data indicated a 25% fall in the number of offences committed.

Health
In 2008 six surgeons who had witnessed first-hand the devastating impact of knife crime formed Medics Against Violence (MAV).

One of its early projects involved sending senior doctors into schools to share their harrowing experiences. MAV also produced a 15-minute film, called Your Choice, and devised lesson plans to help stimulate a debate.

The organisation encouraged knife-crime victims to co-operate with the police as research showed many attacks went unreported.

It has also informed national debates, such as the case for minimum alcohol pricing. Earlier this year Dr Christine Goodall, of MAV, said more than 80% of assault victims in hospital emergency departments had been drinking, as had the people who had assaulted them.

The VRU's holistic approach was illustrated at an anti-violence conference at the Scottish Police College.

It included a session by Canadian parenting expert Mary Gordon which highlighted the importance of empathy.

Education
The VRU launched a mentoring project in schools which is designed to combat the emerging threat of cyberbullying and encourage children to stay safe online.

Former Chief Insp Graham Goulden, said the scale of the problem should not be underestimated in light of the "sexually toxic environment" children are growing up in.

The Mentors in Violence Prevention (MVP) initiative teaches young people leadership skills to help them support their fellow pupils.

The scheme, which was devised by US academic Jackson Katz, also coaches young people to challenge offensive behaviour.

During workshops, pupils are asked questions such as: "Is it sometimes ok to send a sexually explicit photo to another person?"

The debates that follow aim to make teenagers think more carefully about their actions and what is acceptable behaviour.

Meanwhile, VRU deputy director Will Linden has credited a dramatic reduction in school exclusions in Scotland over the last decade as a key factor in keeping children out of trouble.

Opportunity
One of the VRU's key objectives is to offer young people an alternative path.

In 2010, Brigadier David Allfrey, a former commander of 51 Scottish Brigade in Stirling, ran an adventure and leadership training scheme with former gang members.

And two years later he handed five men, aged 18 to 25, a role in the world-renowned Edinburgh Military Tattoo.

The ex-offenders, from the east end of Glasgow and Kilmarnock's Onthank estate were stationed at Redford Barracks in Edinburgh for the duration of the event. During each performance they moved props around and performed.

Brigadier Allfrey, the Tattoo's chief executive and producer, said: "There is enormous human potential wrapped up in these young men."

The VRU was also influenced by LA-based Homeboy Industries, which offers gang members employment in its cafes.

One such example is Street & Arrow in Glasgow's West End, which launched in 2016. It offers modern street food served from an airstream truck and hires former offenders for 12-month blocks.

Workers are paired with a mentor who can help them master everything from basic employment skills, like turning up on time, through to debt management and relationship issues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45572691

Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #16 on: March 9, 2019, 01:19:42 pm »

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #17 on: March 9, 2019, 01:44:58 pm »
'Every little helps'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47507937
one thing I’ve wondered, if it’s some young looking person buying just a knife or a knife and some panda pops and a wham bar do they not realise that they may not be using that for just cutting up their food?

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #18 on: March 9, 2019, 01:54:14 pm »
Just one of the reasons why I'm glad I don't live in N London anymore.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #19 on: March 9, 2019, 01:57:28 pm »
one thing I’ve wondered, if it’s some young looking person buying just a knife or a knife and some panda pops and a wham bar do they not realise that they may not be using that for just cutting up their food?

It's been an offence to sell a knife to a person under 18 for years. Mind you I'm not sure any potential murderer would be interested in buying a steak knife from the local Asda when he can buy a combat knife online.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #20 on: March 9, 2019, 06:53:43 pm »
one thing I’ve wondered, if it’s some young looking person buying just a knife or a knife and some panda pops and a wham bar do they not realise that they may not be using that for just cutting up their food?

If there buying a panda pop and a wham bar,  my guess is they are well past 18!
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #21 on: March 9, 2019, 06:56:59 pm »
It's been an offence to sell a knife to a person under 18 for years. Mind you I'm not sure any potential murderer would be interested in buying a steak knife from the local Asda when he can buy a combat knife online.

My wife works for the border force and there’s been a big increase in people posting combat, flick and butterfly knives from abroad over the last few years, some ordered online but a lot people going to places like Thailand and posting them back to themselves.
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Offline reddebs

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2019, 09:24:26 am »
My husband was stabbed with a hunting knife by a neighbour a few years ago. 

Fortunately he just needed a few stitches in his hand and 3 weeks off work till it had fully healed. 

Guy was fucked up on steroids and glue and anything else he could get off his face on and liked to play the hard man.

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Offline Jake

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2019, 09:39:50 am »
You don't often hear of Tarquin and Julian from the boat club stabbing each other or merking the other do you.

It's a poverty issue, poverty that's been exacerbated by the evil tories, Theresa May, austerity and the policital hatred of the working class and of non-white people.

There's no money for the (often broken) families to go out and do stuff, so the kids form gangs. There's no 3g pitch to play on, youth centre or any motivation to get educated due to lack of opportunity thereafter (so why bother) so they stand around listening to aggressive music that reflects how pissed off they are at the situation.

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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2019, 12:51:00 pm »
You don't often hear of Tarquin and Julian from the boat club stabbing each other or merking the other do you.

It's a poverty issue, poverty that's been exacerbated by the evil tories, Theresa May, austerity and the policital hatred of the working class and of non-white people.

There's no money for the (often broken) families to go out and do stuff, so the kids form gangs. There's no 3g pitch to play on, youth centre or any motivation to get educated due to lack of opportunity thereafter (so why bother) so they stand around listening to aggressive music that reflects how pissed off they are at the situation.


It is largely a poverty issue I agree. 

But I think there’s also an element of fashion about it.  A middle class kid I used to teach just got arrested for carrying a blade..
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2019, 01:00:27 pm »
I don't think it's helping matters that it's constantly being kept in the news and spoken about. It's clearly something that is complex and will require a lot of work but I think a bandwagon effect is being created and that's not helping.

Offline thejbs

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2019, 05:52:51 pm »
I blame computer games. And rap.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2019, 05:54:03 pm »
I blame computer games. And rap.


Ha Rap is so yesterday,it's Grime that kills people.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2019, 06:14:03 pm »
This isnt unique though Teddy Boys and their stiletto knives were involved in a lot of knife crimes however the news would not pick up all of them in those days.added to that these days the media glorifies violence far too much and even highlighting the killings will encourage some misfits to get themselves a knife to look big.

I am not saying nothing needs to be done about it because that would be stupid, but you need to treat the causes that leave some of these kids with nothing in their lives other joining a knife carrying gang and then fighting other gangs with the obvious outcomes.

I think most of us when we were young had places to go like Youth Clubs and Scouts or Boys Brigade for example, in the good weather we also had playing fields to let of some steam playing football or cricket, now it seems the meeting place for a lot of kids is supermarket car parks and street corners. Nothing is in place for them and nobody will support the places they need to help them and with the right mentors for them.

If you dont invest in your youth is it any wonder they end up going down the wrong tracks in life.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 06:15:40 pm by Mutton Geoff »
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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2019, 06:56:46 pm »

Ha Rap is so yesterday,it's Grime that kills people.

Isn't Grime yesterday's Daily Mail cause celebre?

Today's is Drill.

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2019, 07:08:50 pm »
Isn't Grime yesterday's Daily Mail cause celebre?

Today's is Drill.


You telling me that all this time I've been using dill thinking it had health benefits but in reality I have been supporting people getting stabby?
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Offline Trim0582

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2019, 12:17:25 pm »
There is a strong link between male prison populations and young men growing up without fathers, or at least a father figure/identifiable male role model, I believe it has tracked for a while.

I'm not trying to be reductive, I know there are other factors, but it is one that we may not be able to resolve. It is a very difficult problem to rectify, why do relationships break down? Could or should the government even begin to legislate in that space.

It also exacerbates a secondary cause, of violence, poverty. Single parents are more likely to be impoverished for very obvious reasons, none of this is criticism though and please understand that.

I cannot see a reversal in the breakdown of families, but this is why youth centres are so important, it gives young males, in high risk demographics the kind of role models they need. In the absence of good roles models, bad ones will be emulated.




Offline Qston

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2019, 12:52:16 pm »
I blame computer games. And rap.

Specifically Rambo on the spectrum
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2019, 01:06:52 pm »
I can understand where people are coming from with drill music as it does often celebrate violence and there is a lot of aggression in the lyrics, the counter to that though is it's probably my favourite genre of music at the moment and I've never felt the need to go out and stab someone.

That would lead me to believe it's not the fault of the music and is obviously related to the socio-economic factors facing many young people today. Grime/Drill doesn't kill people, austerity does would be my take on it all.

One ridiculous thing that is happening is these young people who may have been part of gangs in the past and have turned to making music instead are often not allowed to perform by the police so that's only going to drive them back in to the gang culture that they are trying to escape.

I definitely think social media plays a part as well, people who may have in other times never interacted with each other are given the chance to 'beef' over the internet and things can escalate from there.

There's no switching off from the outside world for the youth of today and it must be at the very least a small factor in all of this.
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Offline stewil007

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2019, 01:44:41 pm »
When I was growing up and started going out with mates in our gangs in the mids 80's, we used to carry pen-knives and the like around, one of our group had a butterfly knife (and was deemed pretty cool) but we never thought of using them as a weapon against another 'gang' or member of the public, they were used for carving names where they shouldn't be carved or for whittling sticks (I know hardcore right??)

And if we had any trouble with gangs or got into fights, it was the unwritten rule that it was fists and feet and it stopped when the other guy was beat.  People jumped in to stop the fight not to get an extra kick in.

You had a black eye for a week or so, but that was that.  no recriminations, no payback.  If anything you got kudos from the other gang for standing up for a skirmish.

Nowadays, when you see the twitter vids, of multiple kids, kicking the shit out of one person then carrying on with the assault even after its obvious the kid is unconscious, it turns my stomach and makes me worried sick about the world my kids are going into.  I have a 16yo, an 11yo (who is starting to go out more and more) and a 1yr old - and who knows what the world will look like when he is 13 or 14!

I try to give my kids as much opportunity as I can, I pay for sports clubs and extra curricular activities, but you can't help what happens when my 16yo goes to the local skate park on a friday evening because that's where everybody else goes and usually there is a few kids who have raided the parents liquer cabinet.

whats the answer?  im quite strict and ensure my kids know the boundaries, I talk to them about knife crime and crap in general but I cant do much about what they don't have access to ie youth clubs or safe spaces.  I would like to see more police on the streets, as well as the antecedent you need the consequence.  If kids know a copper is about, it does affect behaviours.

Offline Alf

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2019, 03:02:44 pm »
With drugs comes turf wars and these are settled invariably with weapons. For some youngsters they just see this as a way out and will do anything that goes with the territory to preserve the status quo. Sometimes with fatal consequences. It's linked to poverty, lack of education both at school and at home. Police cuts have magnified the issue..

 

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2019, 04:23:37 pm »
With drugs comes turf wars and these are settled invariably with weapons.

Middle and upper class weekend warriors who hand-wring about this issue then choose to bump stuff up their noses/anywhere else would do well to remember this.

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2019, 05:31:53 pm »
Middle and upper class weekend warriors who hand-wring about this issue then choose to bump stuff up their noses/anywhere else would do well to remember this.

Won't stop them tweeting shite though will it.

Offline Alf

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2019, 05:37:15 pm »
Middle and upper class weekend warriors who hand-wring about this issue then choose to bump stuff up their noses/anywhere else would do well to remember this.

No doubt about it. I’m not convinced they’re getting into turf wars on the streets selling it but if they’re buying it then they’re part of the root cause. I’ve seen drugs fuck up people’s lives from all walks of life.

My mates son was selling drugs at 16 making £500 per week, they lived on a high rise at the time, 3 streets from ours. He’s then trying to convince him getting a trade and earning a fraction of that sum while he’s doing his apprenticeship. Fair play, 13 years on he’s got his own building firm & earning a decent amount. But he’s still partial to the white powder & going off the rails on a semi regular basis.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 05:54:50 pm by Alf »

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Knife Crime
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2019, 07:54:08 pm »
Lets be honest though, its not just middle and upper class people is it? EVERYONE is snorting beak nowadays. It stopped being the drug of rich people years ago. Fucking hate it myself.

Of course middle and upper class people are more removed from the stabbings and gangs and all the rest of it. Of course even fewer people think of the hundreds of thousands of murders the cocaine trade has helped fuel in the Americas. The worst are the (mainly Middle Class) people who go to South America and wind up in Colombia snorting cocaine. Soft c*nts.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 08:01:18 pm by Indomitable_Carp »